[General] Light from Light reflection

Sat Aug 15 12:28:25 PDT 2015

David,

I did not read all the article, but I read enough to conclude that it does not repeal the conservation of momentum.  If a photon is emitted, it is carrying away momentum.  The emitting body must absorb the opposite moment.  If the emitting body is an isolated atom, then the recoiling atom has de Broglie waves with exactly the same wavelength (same momentum) as the emitted photon when observed from the atom’s original frame of reference.

However, this is somewhat off the major point which was that the interaction of waves can determine the direction of emission of a photon’s quantized energy.  In my way of looking at this, it is an example of waves interacting.  

John M. 

From: General [mailto:general-bounces+john=macken.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org] On Behalf Of David Mathes
Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2015 11:57 AM
To: Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion <general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>
Subject: Re: [General] Light from Light reflection

John M

The method you propose is classical not in keeping with recent papers on radiation reaction, most notably a relativistic approach as derived by Fearn 2012 (one of Miloni's students now a professor)

http://arxiv.org/abs/1212.4469

The 3D amorphous phased array is a great gendanken. 2D phased arrays are well known. However, 3D optical arrays suffer from all sorts of fields, masses and energy transfers as well as dispersion issues. The reason folks like the laser is due in part to the non-linearity effects that can be produced. 

Furthermore, any approach may not produce a visible recoil since conservation of momentum needs to be conserved both externally and internally to a particle. Internal particle effects may "absorb" the recoil whether at the atomic or elementary particle level. So one needs to attend to both linear and angular momentum conservation.

Add to this is the potential associated with certain models using scalar fields, and one ends up in GR where the speed of light is lower within the amorphous array for whatever reason. 

Finally, there is the question of NIH vs interference, especially at light like velocities.

Other than that, a great idea!

David

  _____  

From: John Macken <john at macken.com <mailto:john at macken.com> >
To: Nature of Light and Particles <general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org <mailto:general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org> > 
Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2015 9:50 AM
Subject: Re: [General] Light from Light reflection

Hello All,

It was great meeting with all of you.  

I would like to introduce a different perspective to the discussion of the interaction of light with a thought experiment.  Suppose that we have a billion small microwave antennas randomly distributed in space.  The antennas on average are separated by a distance equal to about 10% of the wavelength that they will emit and the size of each antenna is much smaller than a wavelength.  A billion of these antennas from a “cloud” about 100 wavelengths in diameter.  If each antenna emits randomly, then the total cloud of antennas would emit an incoherent spherical emission pattern.  However, if all antennas emit the same frequency and if the phase is properly controlled, then the emitted radiation can form a beam with a divergence angle of about 0.01 radian.  Furthermore, the beam can be steered to propagate in any direction with proper phase adjustment.  When the emission forms a coherent beam, then the cloud of antennas feels momentum in the opposite direction of the emitted radiation. This momentum would accelerate the cloud of antennas in the recoil direction.

The example just given is a simulation of what happens in a laser.  Each atom in the excited state can either emit a photon by spontaneous emission or by stimulated emission.  When stimulated emission occurs, the emission is still generally spherical, but the phase of emission is coordinated so that part of the spherical emission is coherently added to the beam causing the stimulated emission. The spherical emission of a single atom “interacts” with the other waves to form a collimated beam propagating in a particular direction. The force imparted to the emitting atom is random if the emission is spontaneous or in a particular direction if it is stimulated.  

In my way of looking at this, this example satisfies a loose definition of interaction of light waves.  I assume that there might be a way of looking at this in which it can be argued that there was no interaction of waves, but this position will require stretching of definitions.  

John M.

From: General [mailto:general-bounces+john=macken.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org] On Behalf Of David Mathes
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2015 8:58 PM
To: Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion <general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org <mailto:general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org> >; Andrew Meulenberg <mules333 at gmail.com <mailto:mules333 at gmail.com> >
Subject: Re: [General] Light from Light reflection

Andrew

One paper that might be of interest is:

 <http://arxiv.org/abs/1205.5897> arXiv:1205.5897 [ <http://arxiv.org/pdf/1205.5897> pdf]

Spin and Orbital Angular Momenta of Light Reflected from a Cone

 <http://arxiv.org/find/physics/1/au:+Mansuripur_M/0/1/0/all/0/1> Masud Mansuripur,  <http://arxiv.org/find/physics/1/au:+Zakharian_A/0/1/0/all/0/1> Armis R. Zakharian,  <http://arxiv.org/find/physics/1/au:+Wright_E/0/1/0/all/0/1> Ewan M. Wright

Another paper is:

Fearn 2012 [1212.4469] Radiation Reaction Force on a Particle <http://arxiv.org/abs/1212.4469> 

David

From: Andrew Meulenberg <mules333 at gmail.com <mailto:mules333 at gmail.com> >
To: Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion <general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org <mailto:general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org> >; Andrew Meulenberg <mules333 at gmail.com <mailto:mules333 at gmail.com> > 
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2015 8:36 PM
Subject: Re: [General] Light from Light reflection

Forgot the paper.

On Fri, Aug 14, 2015 at 11:33 PM, Andrew Meulenberg <mules333 at gmail.com <mailto:mules333 at gmail.com> > wrote:

Gentlemen,

In discussions after Bob Hudgins' presentation on Wednesday, I realized that we had been too close to the problem (and solution) and did not recognize the information gap that existed within the community. The reference was with regards to the nature of light-light interaction. The paper by Dowling (attached) identifies the problem between the NIW school and the light-light interaction school.

It is necessary to emphasize and clarify some points.

1.	Dowling proposed that IDENTICAL waves interact. However, 
2.	he was unable to PROVE reflection, rather than transmission.
3.	Mathematically the results are identical.
4.	In Dowling's paper, he demonstrates that even identical components of colliding waves have this property.
5.	The difference of the colliding waves always is transmitted, not reflected.
6.	Therefore, when added to the identical portion (that is the reflected part), the sum becomes equivalent to a transmitted wave.
7.	The paper showed that the differences could be in:

1.	phase
2.	amplitude
3.	polarity
4.	change in frequency

Thus, while Chandra's NIW view is almost always correct, if based on numbers alone, there is a growing field (based on lasers), which proves that interaction of identical light goes beyond Dirac's statement that photons can only interact with themselves. With this new information, it is possible to view ordinary light from a different perspective. "Any identical portions of light beams can (and will) reflect from each other." 

An example of this can be demonstrated by an introductory-physics  device (Newton's cradle, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momentum#Conservation ). Only if equal numbers of balls are dropped simultaneously will there be reflection of the same number as the input. If unequal numbers are dropped simultaneously, then it would appear that the larger number of balls is transmitted thru the set of balls. No one would say that the balls travel thru the stationary balls. Momentum reflection is the obvious answer in this case - and in the case of light. 

Had Dowling remembered this demonstration, he would have been able to say with absolute authority that light can reflect from light. The appendix of our paper is a mathematical proof of the null-momentum point in the center of the 'dark' zone for equal waves. This is the wave equivalent of the equal-particle demonstration.

My task for the next conference may be to demonstrate how this reflection effect affects the photon structure within the electron.

Andrew

_______________________________________________
If you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light and Particles General Discussion List at davidmathes8 at yahoo.com <mailto:davidmathes8 at yahoo.com> 
<a href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/davidmathes8%40yahoo.com?unsub=1 <http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/davidmathes8%40yahoo.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1> &unsubconfirm=1">
Click here to unsubscribe
</a>

_______________________________________________
If you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light and Particles General Discussion List at davidmathes8 at yahoo.com <mailto:davidmathes8 at yahoo.com> 
<a href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/davidmathes8%40yahoo.com?unsub=1 <http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/davidmathes8%40yahoo.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1> &unsubconfirm=1">
Click here to unsubscribe
</a>

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/pipermail/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/attachments/20150815/a1289645/attachment.htm>