[General] Verification of Light Interactions

Sun Aug 30 06:24:12 PDT 2015

Hi Andrew

Let me rephrase my argument.

First, we know that transmission occurs, because we know that the waves propagate.  Then, when we cause two waves to become coincident, we see the expected interference pattern for transmission.  And we measure the intensity, phase, and frequency, of the output of the two waves, as if they passed through each other, without interaction.

Second, we do not see the reflections at the locations they would have to exist, if we vary the angles of incidence through a full 360 degrees, and look for reflections. In this, we only see the transmitted components.

So for me, those findings constitute sufficient “proof”.

Chip

From: General [mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Meulenberg
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2015 9:43 PM
To: Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion <general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>; Andrew Meulenberg <mules333 at gmail.com>
Cc: robert hudgins <hudginswr at msn.com>
Subject: Re: [General] Verification of Light Interactions

Dear Chip and Chandra,

I will not have time to contribute much to this topic until next week. Before then, I hope that both of you will have a chance to read both Dowling's paper attached to my email of:

Fri, Aug 14, 2015 at 11:33 PM

Light from Light reflection

and my comments on it in the email.

Also, please look at the attached copy of our paper for the conference. Comments would be appreciated for both papers, since Dowling is a much better mathematical physicist than any of us and Chip's simulations agree 100% with the 1st 1/2 of Dowling's paper. To agree with the second 1/2, Chip needs to run his simulations assuming only reflected light and no transmitted light for equal components of the incident waves (assuming reflection from the null zones of the interference pattern). I will predict (as did Dowling's mathematics) that, for the equal waves, the results will be identical with Chip's figures 1 & 2. For his Figure 3, there will only be a component corresponding to the beat frequency envelope of the incident waves.

Thus a conclusion based on those results could be, to modify Chips comment, is:

"The interference patterns we see in experiment, agree with the simulated interference patterns.  And these are obtained simply by the waves REFLECTING FROM each other. So there seems to be no physical basis for assuming any TRANSMISSION, when IDENTICAL waves ENCOUNTER each other."

The resolution of the two statements is Dowling's conclusion (and mine in the email):

"Dowling proposed that IDENTICAL waves interact. However, he was unable to PROVE reflection, rather than transmission."

I will extend that statement to contend that Chip, based on his simulations, will be unable to PROVE transmission, rather than reflection of identical waves.

For background, consider the basis for Bose-Einstein (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bose%E2%80%93Einstein_statistics) and Dirac statistics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi%E2%80%93Dirac_statistics) for non-interacting, identical particles. Does this resolve, or increase, the conflict between Chandra's NIW view and our contention that the observed interference region demands interference between two waves?

Andrew

_________________________________---

On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 3:32 PM, Chip Akins <chipakins at gmail.com <mailto:chipakins at gmail.com> > wrote:

Hi Chandra

I agree completely.

My simulations also produce the results your student obtained.  

No reflections occur when waves cross.  NIW is quite real and understandable.

Maybe I did not express that point well enough in my email to Robert with graphics.

The interference patterns we see in experiment, agree with the simulated interference patterns.  And these are obtained simply by the waves passing through each other. So there seems to be no physical basis for assuming any reflection, when waves pass through each other.

Chip

From: General [mailto:general-bounces+chipakins <mailto:general-bounces%2Bchipakins> =gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org <mailto:gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org> ] On Behalf Of Roychoudhuri, Chandra
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2015 12:47 PM
To: Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion <general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org <mailto:general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org> >

Subject: Re: [General] Verification of Light Interactions

Chip A. and Bob H.: 

Here is a copy of the animation by my student, Michael Ambroselli, which I have been showing people for several years now. The stationary pictures are now in several papers and also in my book.

Of course, it does not show “reflection” of waves by waves; because we use the same prevalent model of superposition of wave amplitudes as simply linear sum of the propagating waves. We did not put in any wave-wave interaction term. Even people who firmly believe in “single photon interference”, sum the linear amplitudes. Some resonant detectors, if inserted within the volume of superposition, can carry out the non-linear square modulus operation to absorb the proportionate energy out of both the fields, not just one or the other, as is erroneously assumed by most believers of “single photon interference”, defying the starting math of summing two amplitudes a1 and a2. The energy absorbed is proportional to: [(a1)-squared+(a2)-squared+ 2a1a2 cos2(pi)(nu)(t2-t1)]. Linear waves do not have the intrinsic physical capacity to carry out the mathematical quadratic operation.

Chandra.

From: General [mailto:general-bounces+chandra.roychoudhuri=uconn.edu at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org] On Behalf Of Chip Akins
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2015 1:22 PM
To: 'robert hudgins'; general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org <mailto:general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org> 
Subject: Re: [General] Verification of Light Interactions

Hi Robert Hudgins

Thank you for the email.  Your concepts show an “out-of-the-box” imagination, and so they were intriguing to me.

So far, I have run some simulations to see what the interference patterns would be for waves which did not reflect off each other at all.  The way I know that these simulated waves do not reflect, is of course because I wrote the simulations to explicitly show only two waves passing through each other, with no ability to reflect off each other.

Here are the results of some of those simulations:

Image: 1, Left Side, Two waves of the same frequency and phase, incident at 45 degrees.

Image: 2, Right Side, Two waves of the same frequency with 180 degree phase shift, incident at 45 degrees. Note the expected interference pattern and no reflection.

Image: 3, two waves of different frequencies passing through each other.

So far, using simulations, and varying angles of incidence, we are able to reproduce the experimentally observed interference patterns. And this is done with no reflection of waves.  

So, sorry, I do not see any physical reason to assume that waves reflect off one another. 

Chip

From: robert hudgins [mailto:hudginswr at msn.com] 
Sent: Friday, August 28, 2015 9:58 AM
To: chipakins at gmail.com <mailto:chipakins at gmail.com> ; general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org <mailto:general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org> 
Cc: robert hudgins <hudginswr at msn.com <mailto:hudginswr at msn.com> >; Ralph Penland <rpenland at gmail.com <mailto:rpenland at gmail.com> >; Andrew meulenberg <mules333 at gmail.com <mailto:mules333 at gmail.com> >
Subject: Verification of Light Interactions

Dear Chip,

   To have our SPIE  presentation, with its data, receive a broad, non-specific and vocal rejection from many attendees was personally confusing.  From our perspective, those results (and ideas) had been thoroughly tested, retested and reconciled with current literature. The openness you indicated by your intent to try replicating some our results felt refreshing.

What follows are some pointers about possible ways to work-around the problem of short wavelength intervals:

The standing wave frequency is 1/2 the wave length of the light used.  Consequently, some method of expansion is usually required for clear visualization of a standing wave pattern.   Many investigators use Otto Wiener's 1890 method or some variation.  Recently, a simplified classroom demonstration procedure was published.

http://scitation.aip.org/content/aapt/journal/ajp/77/8/10.1119/1.3027506

Standing waves of light in the form of optical lattices are currently a workhorse for manipulating ultra-cold bosons and fermions.  The atoms are trapped between the oscillating potentials. 

Another important standing wave/interference demonstration is the 1837 Lloyd's mirror experiment.  

For our study we used a precision 15 X 5cm mirror.  A laser beam was reflected a shallow angle and the resulting interference pattern was examined after expanding its image.  This was accomplished with a convex mirror placed near the end of the reflection zone.  We did this experiment to demonstrate that a mirror reflection would substitute for one of the beams in a two crossing-beam interference pattern, and that the null zones in the crossed-beam interference behaved as mirror--like reflection zones.   

The set-up we use for our interference studies is very simple.   It requires only two components; a laser and a variable density filter.  The variable density filter becomes a beam splitter when the laser beam is reflected from both the front and the back (partially mirrored) surface.  Adjusting the relative intensities and phases of the emerging beams is accomplished by changing the reflection angle and the point where the beam strikes the splitter.  Proper adjustment should give two clearly separated, and independent beams.   This system gives clear, unambiguous results.

We began our pursuit as a search for the "cancelled" energy of light interference.  It was quickly obvious that all the light energy in the beams emerging from the beam splitter was detectable in the interference patterns, that formed at some distance from the splitter.   (Well after the beams had merged.)  Although interference confined the light to a smaller area, (compressed the light) we found no evidence of "cancelled" light waves (energy) or of photodetector limitations.       

Hudgins, W. R., Meulenberg, A., Ramadass, S., “Evidence for unmediated momentum transfer between light waves,” Paper 8121-39, Proc. SPIE 8121 (2011)

 [1]Hudgins, W., R., A. Meulenberg, A., Penland, R. F. “Mechanism of wave interaction during interference,” SPIE (2013) Paper 8832-7, in The Nature of Light: What are Photons?   

Please let us know if you were successful, or not, with your testing.

Bob     

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