[General] double-loop electron model discussion
Richard Gauthier
richgauthier at gmail.com
Fri Mar 13 10:15:28 PDT 2015
John,
P.S. Figure 2 in my article shows a quick graphical derivation of the electron’s de Broglie wavelength from the charged photon model.
Richard
> On Mar 13, 2015, at 9:31 AM, Richard Gauthier <richgauthier at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> John,
> Thanks for your explanations. The link to my American Physical Society presentation abstract is http://meetings.aps.org/Meeting/APR15/Session/Y16.4 <http://meetings.aps.org/Meeting/APR15/Session/Y16.4> . For reference, my article “The electron is a charged photon with the de Broglie wavelength" is attached, and is downloadable from https://www.academia.edu/10740682/The_Electron_is_a_Charged_Photon_with_the_de_Broglie_Wavelength <https://www.academia.edu/10740682/The_Electron_is_a_Charged_Photon_with_the_de_Broglie_Wavelength> and https://www.researchgate.net/publication/272167387_The_Electron_is_a_Charged_Photon_with_the_de_Broglie_Wavelength <https://www.researchgate.net/publication/272167387_The_Electron_is_a_Charged_Photon_with_the_de_Broglie_Wavelength> .
> with best wishes,
> Richard
>
>
> <electron is charged photon with de Broglie wavelength 12 Feb.pdf>
>
>
>
>> On Mar 13, 2015, at 8:54 AM, John Duffield <johnduffield at btconnect.com <mailto:johnduffield at btconnect.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Richard,
>>
>> Re your charge and light question:
>>
>> how can matter such as electrons be made of light if the light that electrons are made of is not electrically charged?
>>
>> I think the best way to explain this is to refer to displacement current <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Displacement_current#History_and_interpretation> wherein Maxwell said light consists of transverse undulations in the same medium that is the cause of electric and magnetic phenomena. The photon is a sinusoidal field-variation, rather like a seismic wave. Imagine that as it passes you by, space lurches left by 3.86 x 10⁻¹³m, then it lurches right by 3.86 x 10⁻¹³m. You wrap this photon into a tight double clockwise loop with a twist, such that you have a lurch-left loop which varies sinusoidally, and another lurch-left loop which varies sinusoidally. The latter used to be the lurch right, but it’s been twisted right over. The two sinusoidal loops complement each other - think of a sine wave and an upside-down sine wave fitting together. The result is that you end up with a 3.86 x 10⁻¹³m all-round clockwise skew. You had a field-variation going along at c, and now it’s going around and round at c, the wave is displacing its own path into a closed path, and it’s in such harmony with itself that the field variation looks like a standing field. You call this “knot” of self-bound field-variation a charged particle, and you call this standing field an electromagnetic field. It isn’t totally unlike the gravitomagnetic field, see below, but it’s a 3D skew. Imagine you grab a lattice with your right hand and twist it round clockwise. Then you reach round the side with your left hand and twist it orthogonally clockwise. Then you let go and the thing stays put like a knot in a tennis net when your ball pocks into it and catches.
>>
>> <gravmagdet[1].jpg>
>>
>> Where’s the electron’s electric charge if it is not associated with the light that the electron is made of?
>>
>> In the topology, in the configuration of the field-variation, in the winding. Light is alternating displacement current moving linearly at c. When you wrap this up just right into a closed path, the result is what you call a charged particle. Then when you move that, you call it conduction current. But this conduction current is just displacement current going round and round, and linearly along. The electron’s intrinsic spin makes it what it is. It’s a bit like a cyclone. A cyclone’s intrinsic spin makes it what it is. Take away the rotation, and all you’ve got is wind. Do the same for an electron, and all you’ve got is light. And how do you take away the rotation? With an anticyclone. Or with a positron.
>>
>> Have you considered and eliminated the possibility that there may be two types or expressions of the photon, one uncharged and the other charged? Since the nature and origin of electric charge is not understood at all, I think it is bit premature to dismiss the concept of an electrically charged photon that composes the electron.
>>
>> I like to think I do understand it, at least in outline, and would reiterate that “the charged photon” will be used as ammunition to discredit everything else you say. IMHO the model needs to match pair production where we start with one or two uncharged photons, and where mass and charge are emergent. Electron-positron annihilation is the reverse process.
>>
>> I agree with you that the scientific enterprise has its vested interests and that those proposing revolutionary physics ideas outside the central paradigm are persona non grata to some of these folks. Still, the American Physical Society is willing to give out-of-the-box ideas a forum at their annual conferences. I will be presenting a short talk on the electron as a charged photon with the de Broglie wavelength at their annual April meeting in Baltimore. Andrew read the article and noted the derivation of the de Broglie wavelength from the circulating charged photon model. John W. commented that the model has something going for it. I would like to know if you have found any holes in the derivation of the de Broglie wavelength in the model, because it is one of the model’s most notable features. And if the charged photon model of the electron is shown to be wrong, we’ve still learned something. But if such new ideas can’t be proposed and discussed openly and critically in this group, where on earth can they be discussed?
>>
>> Good luck with the talk, yes I think the model is partially correct. But I also think the charged photon is something you really need to work on. Apologies, I haven’t looked at the derivation of the de Broglie wavelength, I’ll get back to you on that. But not for a while, I have to go away tomorrow, and might be incommunicado for a week. As for new ideas, we are discussing them. People are just a little respectful that’s all, and don’t want to cause offence.
>>
>> Regards
>> John D
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Richard Gauthier <mailto:richgauthier at gmail.com>
>> Sent: Friday, March 13, 2015 3:53 AM
>> To: Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion <mailto:general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>
>> Subject: Re: [General] double-loop electron model discussion
>>
>> John D.,
>> Thank you for your thoughtful comments. Please help me to understand them better. On the one hand, you have claimed least a couple of times on this thread that matter is made of light. On the other hand you say that the idea that a photon (i.e. light) can be electrically charged is nonsense. So my question to you is: how can matter such as electrons be made of light if the light that electrons are made of is not electrically charged? Where’s the electron’s electric charge if it is not associated with the light that the electron is made of? Have you considered and eliminated the possibility that there may be two types or expressions of the photon, one uncharged and the other charged? Since the nature and origin of electric charge is not understood at all, I think it is bit premature to dismiss the concept of an electrically charged photon that composes the electron.
>> I agree with you that the scientific enterprise has its vested interests and that those proposing revolutionary physics ideas outside the central paradigm are persona non grata to some of these folks. Still, the American Physical Society is willing to give out-of-the-box ideas a forum at their annual conferences. I will be presenting a short talk on the electron as a charged photon with the de Broglie wavelength at their annual April meeting in Baltimore. Andrew read the article and noted the derivation of the de Broglie wavelength from the circulating charged photon model. John W. commented that the model has something going for it. I would like to know if you have found any holes in the derivation of the de Broglie wavelength in the model, because it is one of the model’s most notable features. And if the charged photon model of the electron is shown to be wrong, we’ve still learned something. But if such new ideas can’t be proposed and discussed openly and critically in this group, where on earth can they be discussed?
>> with warm regards,
>> Richard
>>
>>> On Mar 11, 2015, at 1:41 AM, John Duffield <johnduffield at btconnect.com <mailto:johnduffield at btconnect.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Richard:
>>>
>>> In an ideal world a consensus would emerge wherein everybody would agree on the electron. This is supported by hard scientific evidence such as pair production and electron diffraction and refraction, the Einstein-de Haas effect, magnetic moment, electron spin, atomic orbitals where electrons “exist as standing waves”, and annihilation to gamma photons. It’s pretty obvious that an electron is a photon going round and round with some kind of spin ½ 720-degree rotation, and that electron mass is the result of this. When you annihilate the electron with the positron, you’ve got a radiating body losing mass, just like Einstein’s paper <https://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/E_mc2/www/>. What could be more obvious?
>>>
>>> And yet John can’t get his paper on the arXiv, because in this imperfect world there are vested interests who stand four-square in the way of scientific progress. They will use anything they can to discredit an idea. If they can find one little flaw they will magnify it and maliciously claim that the author is some amateur crackpot who has got everything else wrong, and who should be dismissed and disregarded. With respect, your charged photon falls into that bracket: a photon is not a charged particle, ergo the whole idea is nonsense. I would urge you to think deeply about this, not just because of yourself, but because of the impact it could have on this group.
>>>
>>> All:
>>>
>>> I would recommend a similar caution. If there’s anything you’re tempted to say that might turn out to be wrong, be aware that there are malicious people out there who will use it against you and the group. It’s one thing to kick things around in group emails, but it’s another thing to include it in a paper. If in doubt, leave it out.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> John
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Richard Gauthier <mailto:richgauthier at gmail.com>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 6:18 AM
>>> To: Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion <mailto:general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [General] double-loop electron model discussion
>>>
>>> Hello John,
>>> Thank you for your further clarifications. I think that your and Martin’s 1997 electron model (with its ongoing improvements) still leads the (somewhat rarified) field, though Chip’s model may be catching up fast. My charged photon model of the electron seems to be waiting in the wings, although I think it has one or two things going for it, such as its simplicity (but not too simple), its generality (it could accommodate a variety of different photon models), its resemblance to Dirac’s light-speed electron, and its ease of generating the relativistic de Broglie wavelength of a moving electron. The charged photon model only requires that the charged photon has the photon properties E=hf, p=h/lambda and c=f lambda, and move in a closed double-looped path of 1 Compton wavelength h/mc in the case of a resting electron (thus generating zitterbewegung motion and a natural spin of 1/2 hbar). You and Martin have said that your photon with toroidal topology is not charged, but I think you will agree that this model, when moving through physical space, will be closely accompanied by its effective electric charge. And that may be close enough to say that this circulating photon is charged, even though the circulating photon's charge is not moving at light-speed with the photon. A resting electron has “rest mass". The circulating photon composing the electron therefore has “rest mass" (or inertia) also, which it somehow gets by confining itself. I think we all somehow agree about this.
>>> As Bohr once said to Pauli, “we all agree that your new model is crazy. Where we differ is whether it is crazy enough.”
>>> Richard
>>>
>>>> On Mar 9, 2015, at 10:19 PM, John Williamson <John.Williamson at glasgow.ac.uk <mailto:John.Williamson at glasgow.ac.uk>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Oh dear me,
>>>>
>>>> I am trying to clarify the meaning of Martin and my old model, but I seem just to be confusing everyone more. Apologies for this. I think we should perhaps try to concentrate on saying what our our models mean - and not say what other models mean. At the risk of sowing (yet more) confusion ...
>>>>
>>>> No, no no (and no).
>>>>
>>>> No: I did not say the photon spin in the electron model was 1 hbar, but that the result was a full twist. To define spin one needs a spin axis and there is no single axis for (the photon) spin. It tumbles, giving a "quantum bicycle" motion. The spin may be seen as being more like 1-1/2 = 1/2 - but this is far too simple and not the way it was put in. It was calculated by integration - not by adding numbers.
>>>>
>>>> No -the differences you suggest are not the differences I see. For me, some differences are
>>>>
>>>> The EFFECTIVE half integral spin comes from the initial photon MOMENTUM , not its angular momentum. This is just R(eff) cross p (as you say for your model). The characteristic R (eff) is, for us lc/4pi precisely because the mode structure is a single wavelength. This R is not in the same space as the fields, but in a space related by division (by differentiation - to be more precise). THe two valuedness comes, for us, because that space is more closely related to complex numbers (scalar aND PSEUDOSCALaR SPACE) than to 3D space or 4D space and time.
>>>>
>>>> The reason this is a fermion is that the resultant complete motion is A) double covering, and B) interferes to give a (strong) repulsive force for same state systems. It is only secondarily that this happens to integrate to give an, overall , half integral spin numerically. The numerics are, once again, not really important for the model. Real photons may have (and, as Chandra pointed out, are measured experimentally to have) any spin. 1 hbar is a limit, not a rule.
>>>>
>>>> No we do (and did not ) put the "Harmony of phases" in: it comes out.
>>>>
>>>> We do not put charge in: it comes out.
>>>>
>>>> All paths in our model are lightspeed. There are no superluminal (or subluminal) paths.
>>>>
>>>> Our electron is not a little donut whizzing around in space (this would be inconsistent with the experimental observation that electrons are, apparently, spherically symmetric) - but in the projected space of the fields and momenta.
>>>>
>>>> Your argument about the increase in the angular momentum would be true for a charged photon on a rigid bar attached to a real axis. This is not the same model as we use.
>>>>
>>>> In your argument about soin you seem to be mixing the transformation properties of fields with those of material particles. The reason a photon angular momentum remains constant under a Lorentz transformation (not in the 1997 paper but in the 2014 paper not in arXiv) is that, to maintain linearity, the transverse size scales inversely with the energy. This is because fields transform TRANSVERSE ONLY under a Lorentz transformation, not along the direction of motion LONGITUDINALLY ONLY(as do the velocities or momenta). There is a good discussion about this in Stephen's thesis.
>>>> What this means is that photons shrink laterally at the inverse rate as their energy-momentum increases - hence keeping a constant angular momentum. This scaling happens for photons (experimentally) for field (relativistically), and also for any electron made of a photon or photons. Real electrons also, do not exhibit a spin about an axis under all circumstances, but only if one tries to measure them (against an experimental axis) - in which case one gets one of two values - spin "up" or spin " down". That two-valuedness is, pretty much, what SU(2) is in the standard model.
>>>>
>>>> On the concept of "charged" photon. Charge is a non-zero field divergence. Such a thing, necessarily, has a rest mass associated with it - just from the integral of field squared in the frame where it is spherical (for Beamon, in the example I just circulated). One then has a rest-massive photon. For me the definition of a photon is that it is rest-massless. The charge, for me comes about because of the local confinement. This means that saying "charged photon" sounds to me like saying "massless mass". This is probably just my problem!
>>>>
>>>> Ho-hum ... hope I have not made things even worse!
>>>>
>>>> Regards, John.
>>>> From: General [general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org <mailto:general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>] on behalf of Richard Gauthier [richgauthier at gmail.com <mailto:richgauthier at gmail.com>]
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2015 1:27 AM
>>>> To: Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion
>>>> Subject: Re: [General] double-loop electron model discussion
>>>>
>>>> Hi Chip, John and Martin,
>>>>
>>>> First let me answer, for the case of the charged photon model, the basic questions that I posed to both of you about your models, as a basis for a preliminary comparison of the three models based on their size, internal frequency and internal wavelength. Vivian is welcome to jump in also, and anyone else with a photon-based, or light-speed or non-light-speed charge-based electron model.
>>>>
>>>> My first set of questions was: What is the spin of the circulating photon in your model? Is its spin 1 hbar even though your electron model has net spin 1/2 hbar? If so, is this spin 1 hbar of your electron model’s photon observable? If not, in what sense does this circulating photon have spin 1 hbar? John said that it is 1 hbar in his and Martin's model, while Chip said that it is 1/2 hbar in his model due to being confined.
>>>>
>>>> First, my current proposal (“The electron is a charged photon with the de Broglie wavelength” ) does not contain a specific photon model (I have not inserted into it my internally superluminal photon model from previous work). The current proposal does assume that for the charged photon, c=L f , E=hf and P=h/L , where c= speed of light, f is photon frequency, L is photon wavelength, E is photon energy and P is photon momentum, the same relations as for an uncharged photon.
>>>>
>>>> Answers: The instantaneous spin of the circulating charged photon in a resting electron in the charged photon model would have to be 1/2 hbar if it is to remain constant for a moving electron model. This instantaneous spin 1/2 hbar averages out to zero in the case of a resting electron model (as John's and Martin’s spin 1 hbar photon does also). In the charged photon model, the electron's spin Sz = 1/2 hbar is due to the r x Ptransverse of the circulating photon around the circular radius hbar/2mc. But in the case of a relativistic electron moving in the z-direction (x-y is the photon’s plane in a resting electron), the charged photon moves in a helical trajectory and has a NON-ZERO average spin component along the z-axis. As the electron becomes more relativistic, the spin 1/2 hbar of the helically circulating photon along the z-axis dominates the spin caused by r x Ptransverse, which now goes to zero since the helical radius r decreases as 1/gamma^2 in a relativistic electron while Ptransverse remains constant even and the electron’s linear momentum increases. The charged photon model continues to have spin 1/2 hbar at relativistic velocities. This is now due to the spin 1/2 hbar of the circulating photon in the resting electron that now is moving mostly in the z direction and not averaging out to zero. So even though the spin 1/2 of the circulating photon in the resting electron is not manifested, this spin 1/2 hbar photon spin manifests more and more in a moving and then relativistic electron. If the instantaneous spin of the circulating photon in a resting electron were 1 hbar, the electron’s Sz would go from spin 1/2 hbar in a slow moving electron to spin 1 hbar as the speed of the electron increased and became relativistic. This would violate conservation of angular momentum for the moving electron.
>>>>
>>>> My second set of questions: Does the circulating photon move along a helical trajectory when the electron model has velocity v perpendicular to the plane of its circulating photon’s closed circle trajectory when at rest? If so, does the radius of this helical trajectory continue to be hbar/2mc as the electron model's speed increases, or does the radius of this helical trajectory change with electron speed by some factor? Does the circulating photon’s frequency of circulation increase in proportion to the total energy E=gamma mc^2 of the electron? If so, does the circulating photon's wavelength correspondingly decrease inversely proportional to gamma? If not, how does the photon’s frequency depend on the electron model’s velocity?
>>>>
>>>> Answers: These questions are partially answered above for the charged photon model. The circulating charged photon does move in a helical trajectory whose radius is Ro/gamma^2 where Ro is hbar/2mc , the radius of the circular axis of a resting electron. This decreasing helical radius with gamma^2 is required if the photon is to keep moving at light-speed as its frequency increases in proportion to gamma (due to the increasing speed and total energy of the electron) while its wavelength decreases in proportion to 1/gamma (to keep c of the charged photon constant). The circulating charged photon’s frequency f DOES increase in proportion to the electron’s (or charged photon’s) total energy E=gamma mc^2 = hf . The circulating charged photon’s wavelength L DOES decrease as the electron’s speed increases, as L=h/(gamma mc)= Lcompton/gamma.
>>>>
>>>> John’s and Martin’s model generates the de Broglie wavelength by the “harmony of phases” approach used by de Broglie. In terms of how John’s and Martin’s electron size scales down with increasing speed, the blue-shifted portion of the model decreases with size and seems to account (along with the single particle nature of the photon) for the small apparent size of the electron in high energy collisions. (Their explanation: the electron size scales with the blue-shifted photon size at higher energies since the electron is electromagnetic in nature). This model assumes that both blue and red doppler shifting are produced as the electron moves faster and faster in a sideways direction. But if the electron’s velocity is in the same direction as the electron’s spin, the motion is all forward (blue) shifting and no reverse (red) shifting, isn’t it, as the photon composing the electron always moves helically forward in the z direction. Presumably John’s and Martin’s explanation for the scaling of a high energy electron's size would still apply here?
>>>>
>>>> Chip’s method of generating the de Broglie wavelength from his model seems essentially the same as mine — the decreasing L of the circulating photon gives a longitudinal component of its wave vector k along the longitudinal direction, which generates the de Broglie wavelength of the electron. But Chip’s electron model, like John’s and Martin’s model (and the charged photon model also) could generate the de Broglie wavelength by the “harmony of phases” approach. This approach is consistent with (but more complicated than) the charged photon’s de Broglie wavelength-generating approach.
>>>>
>>>> I have only tried to extract a beginning comparison of these three models based on their basic size, frequency and internal wavelength parameters and how these may change with the electron's motion.
>>>> Please correct any errors in my description of your models.
>>>>
>>>> with warm regards,
>>>> Richard
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 9, 2015, at 9:19 AM, Chip Akins <chipakins at gmail.com <mailto:chipakins at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Richard
>>>>>
>>>>> To answer your questions regarding my electron model…
>>>>>
>>>>> Richard Wrote: “What is the spin of the circulating photon with toroidal topology in your model? Is it spin 1 hbar even though your electron model has spin 1/2 hbar? If so, is this spin 1 hbar of your electron model’s photon observable? If not, in what sense does this circulating photon have spin 1 hbar?”
>>>>>
>>>>> In my model the spin of the photon itself, when confined, is changed, and becomes the spin of the electron. My model uses a circular plane wave model for the confined photon. There is no required toroidal topology in the model, but certain toroidal topologies (if defined correctly) may work just as well. The hbar spin of the photon creates a velocity vector, the square root of 2 times c. This is the circulation velocity of the photon confined in the electron with a spin of ½ hbar. The new R0 transport radius, for the electron is then 2.73055834982988E-13m. When field interference at the center of rotation is accounted for, the effective electromagnetic radius is larger than the transport radius, so that the effective EM radius is 1.001159601916102 times larger than the transport radius. This yields the exact values for charge and magnetic moment of the electron.
>>>>> Without including this velocity correction to the fields we cannot obtain enough “charge” to get the actual value of e, the elementary charge, so this is a critical point. If we keep the velocity c, for the internal circulation velocity in a double looped electron model which generated topological charge, we either wind up with a magnetic moment anomaly, or with insufficient charge.
>>>>>
>>>>> Richard Wrote: “Does the circulating photon with toroidal topology move along a helical trajectory when the electron model has velocity v perpendicular to the plane of its circulating photon’s closed circle trajectory when at rest? If so, does the radius of this helical trajectory continue to be hbar/2mc (the same as for your resting electron model) as the electron model's speed increases, or does the radius of this helical trajectory change with electron speed by some factor? Does the circulating photon’s frequency of circulation increase in proportion to the total energy E=gamma mc^2 of the electron? If so, does the circulating photon's wavelength correspondingly decrease inversely proportional to gamma? If not, how does the photon’s frequency depend on the electron model’s velocity?”
>>>>>
>>>>> My electron model, when accelerated, is described by:
>>>>>
>>>>> Electron energy <image001.png>
>>>>> Photon frequency <image003.png> = Electron Frequency <image005.png>
>>>>> Photon wavelength <image006.png>
>>>>> Transport radius <image007.png>
>>>>>
>>>>> Where <image008.png> is Lorentz correction, <image009.png> is the square root of 2 times c.
>>>>>
>>>>> So with acceleration the energy increases, frequency increases, radius decreases, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> Are there portions of these items which I have failed to make clear in the paper? Not always the best at communication some of the detail.
>>>>>
>>>>> Chip
>>>>>
>>>>> From: General [mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org <mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>] On Behalf Of Richard Gauthier
>>>>> Sent: Monday, March 09, 2015 10:34 AM
>>>>> To: Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion
>>>>> Subject: Re: [General] double-loop electron model discussion
>>>>>
>>>>> Chip,
>>>>> Could you please also answer the short questions below about your electron model, that I put to John and Martin about their electron model. This might turn into a small survey about features in common or different among the various photon-based models of the electron.Thanks.
>>>>> By the way, I learned that Martin Rivas who also has a Dirac related electron model is following me on ResearchGate. John W. knows his work also. Rivas has a speed-of-light trajectory of a helically circulating point charge in his electron model.
>>>>> Richard
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 8, 2015, at 8:23 PM, Richard Gauthier <richgauthier at gmail.com <mailto:richgauthier at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John and Martin,
>>>>>> I have a few basic questions about your electron model that I don’t think are answered in your paper. Short answers are OK, if possible. Longer answers or explanations are welcome.
>>>>>> My first set of questions: What is the spin of the circulating photon with toroidal topology in your model? Is it spin 1 hbar even though your electron model has spin 1/2 hbar? If so, is this spin 1 hbar of your electron model’s photon observable? If not, in what sense does this circulating photon have spin 1 hbar?
>>>>>> My second set of questions: Does the circulating photon with toroidal topology move along a helical trajectory when the electron model has velocity v perpendicular to the plane of its circulating photon’s closed circle trajectory when at rest? If so, does the radius of this helical trajectory continue to be hbar/2mc (the same as for your resting electron model) as the electron model's speed increases, or does the radius of this helical trajectory change with electron speed by some factor? Does the circulating photon’s frequency of circulation increase in proportion to the total energy E=gamma mc^2 of the electron? If so, does the circulating photon's wavelength correspondingly decrease inversely proportional to gamma? If not, how does the photon’s frequency depend on the electron model’s velocity?
>>>>>> with warm regards,
>>>>>> Richard
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mar 7, 2015, at 4:43 AM, John Duffield <johnduffield at btconnect.com <mailto:johnduffield at btconnect.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not good. I’m afraid there’s a lot more censorship around than people appreciate.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> By the way, the phony side of particle physics <http://www.amazon.co.uk/Science-Fiction-Phony-Particle-Physics/dp/1888820810/ref=tmm_pap_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1425732021&sr=1-1> was interesting reading.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: John Williamson <mailto:John.Williamson at glasgow.ac.uk>
>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2015 6:06 AM
>>>>>>> To: Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion <mailto:general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [General] double-loop electron model discussion
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hihi .. look what I just got from arxiv ...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> arXiv Moderation [moderation at arxiv.org <mailto:moderation at arxiv.org>]
>>>>>>> <~WRD000.jpg><~WRD000.jpg><~WRD000.jpg>
>>>>>>> Actions<~WRD000.jpg>
>>>>>>> To:
>>>>>>> John Williamson
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Friday, March 06, 2015 7:24 PM
>>>>>>> Your submission has been removed upon a notice from our moderators, who determined it inappropriate for arXiv. Our moderators suggest that you please send your paper to a conventional journal instead.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Please do not resubmit this paper without contacting moderation for permission, and obtaining a positive response. Resubmission of removed papers may result in suspension of submission privileges.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For more information on our moderation policies see:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://arxiv.org/help/moderation <http://arxiv.org/help/moderation>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> arXiv moderation
>>>>>>> From: General [general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org <mailto:general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>] on behalf of John Williamson [John.Williamson at glasgow.ac.uk <mailto:John.Williamson at glasgow.ac.uk>]
>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2015 6:03 AM
>>>>>>> To: Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [General] double-loop electron model discussion
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Good for you Richard,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That is a very good starting point for discussion. The reason Dirac did not model the electron as a charged object, however, was that he was aware that this would produce problems for a light- speed object, not that he missed something. Photons are not charged - this is (for me) part of the essential difference between photons and electrons (the other is the fermionic aspect). This needs to come out of a proper theory, or model, not be put in a-priori. While I am proud of Martin and my old model (in that it both derives charge and half-integral spin), it is by no means the whole story two decades later. I think it is unproductive to argue too much about what the old models do or do not mean. The electron is no more, simply, a localised photon, than the photon is a pure overlap state of a couple of electrons. We need to develop the new theory to explain both photon and electron from first principles, deriving both charge and fermions from bosons - and explaining why the basic fermions can carry charge, whereas (the W's notwithstanding) wheres the rest-massless boson does not. I do not think the W or the Z are "fundamental" either, but their properties should (equally) emerge from the proper theory that Martin and I are working on.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also the statements of Hestenes and Rivas, are not "results" in the experimental sense, but theoretical speculations. They cannot and must not be taken as god given. I'm hoping to write a proper explanation of some of the seminal experiments on the experimental point properties of the electron later this weekend. I was lucky enough to have been the actual person who carried out (two sets of the actual) seminal experiments on this decades ago. It is about time I explained it properly with the references - and hope to have a go at this within this discussion forum if I can muster the time or energy to make a proper job of it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards, John.
>>>>>>> From: General [general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org <mailto:general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>] on behalf of Richard Gauthier [richgauthier at gmail.com <mailto:richgauthier at gmail.com>]
>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2015 5:42 AM
>>>>>>> To: Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [General] double-loop electron model discussion
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi John W., Martin, Andrew and others,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think that the present company can mostly agree about one feature common to our various electron models — they are composed in some way of a double-looping photon of basic radius hbar/2mc, which is the Compton wavelength h/mc divided by 4pi . This is also the characteristic vibrational amplitude of the electron found from the Dirac equation. So I think we’re on firm ground with our electron models here (though we are a small group). But then differences are seen when we discuss the nature and location of the electric charge of an electron.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think we need to keep in mind that Dirac claimed, based on his equation and successful experimental predictions from his equation, that the electron travels at light speed, although he says its observable velocity is always less that light speed. The same could apply to the electron’s charge. Hestenes and Rivas in separate analyses of the Dirac equation found that the electron can be modeled as a light speed electric charge moving in a helical trajectory of radius hbar/2mc. The electron’s “center of charge” rotates around its “center of mass” at light speed, claims Rivas. This is the case even when the electron is at “rest” and the light-speed charge’s helical path becomes a closed circular path. So John, when you say, as does Martin similarly, that "Speed of light "charge" cannot happen, in this picture, precisely because of this frame-bound (rest-massive) form” you seem to be going against these two Dirac-equation related analyses which have the electron’s charge moving at light-speed even in a resting electron. How do you explain this discrepency between your electron model and these results?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now Dirac did not claim that the electron is a helically-circulating charged photon. Neither did de Broglie. Both had the opportunity to do so, starting with de Broglie's E=mc^2=hf for the stationary electron. In my opinion, if either had, and had then derived the de Broglie wavelength from this charged photon, this view would be commonly accepted as obvious today. But for some reason there seems to have developed a collective “mental block” among physicists, starting perhaps with de Broglie and persisting until today, that the equation gamma mc^2=hf does NOT indicate that the moving electron is a kind of photon, but rather that the electron is a material object with a certain energy-related internal vibrational frequency which increases in proportion to the total energy of the electron in a way that, due to a “harmony of phases” leads to the de Broglie wavelength and the idea of ‘matter-waves’. Perhaps this collective mental block or dogmatic way of thinking about electrons had its origin in Planck’s endowing his proposed material oscillators in the walls of a blackbody’s cavity with energies having integral multiples of hf. There is now also a kind of dogma that photons have to have spin 1, so that the idea that the electron can be a variety of photon with spin 1/2 is dismissed as impossible or inconceivable, even laughable as a kind of logical contradiction, if it presents itself to mind at all. All of this is understandable. New ideas in physics are not easily accepted, and rightly so. Dogmas, especially when they may have served some useful purpose in the past, die hard.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But I digress. Whether the electron’s charge moves at sub-light speed or at light speed can be a point of reasonable disagreement. But the various proposals that the electron is a double-looping photon with its effective charge at the center of the loop (Williamson and van der Mark), a double-looping light-speed electric charge (Hestenes, Rivas) or a double-looping charged photon, all perhaps can claim at least some rational support and could therefore form the basis for a common presentation about the nature of the electron in relation to the photon.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> with best regards,
>>>>>>> Richard
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mar 6, 2015, at 12:26 AM, John Williamson <John.Williamson at glasgow.ac.uk <mailto:John.Williamson at glasgow.ac.uk>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Agreed Andrew,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We need to realise that we are all "ignorant" in certain respects - and indeed that "science" is also , presently, completely ignorant in certain respects. We need to break this cycle of ignorance. We need the picture to make sense in science as a whole. If we (I hope!) come up with a complete picture, it must be right everywhere and only just right - explaining, amongst other things- both the nature of and reason for quantisation and the nature of charge.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In the paper I aim to present I hope to argue that one can start from an underlying picture of continuous fields, show how and why these must be quantised and then use that quantised (E=hf) object to show why and how the (quantised) electron charge arises. In that sense I would say that I then "know" what charge is - in terms of the deeper set of principles used to describe it in terms of that theory. Others may say that, within QED charge is that thing which emits and absorbs photons, the carriers of the electromagnetic force and may claim, therefore to "understand" what charge is. In my view, there is a big difference between putting charge in a-priori and understanding what it is. Likewise, in the Maxwell equations the "charge" is understood simply as the electric field divergence. This then begs the question of the nature of the charge. The fact that it is defined here as a divergence means that it must have a form related to a particular frame - just as Martin says. Speed of light "charge" cannot happen, in this picture, precisely because of this frame-bound (rest-massive) form.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In our 1997 paper, we put in (a subset of) the experimental properties of the (uncharged) photon and got out an estimate of the charge. We demanded a set of non-crossing, precisely lightspeed, paths. It was these starting points that led to the properties we derived. The charge arose in this model because the oscillating (a.c) photon field was re-configured to give a (d.c.) radial component. That re-configuration (a knotting) required an equal and opposite re-configuration an (antiknot) to give a detailed, smooth transition from cartesian (corkscrew -zero divergence) to toroidal (positive and negative radial) co-ordinates. The half integral spin to what John D calls the Dirac belt trick. The anomalous magnetic moment calculation to a rigorous demand that all paths have the same phase length, and be precisely lightspeed. That article is history though. Still good, I think, in terms of its starting postulates, but we need to move on to a deeper theory that gives BOTH electron AND photon solutions from an underlying theory.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As we talk about this I see many holes and fallacies in what others are saying, I'm expecting (and hoping!), to be challenged on my own areas of ignorance. This is best done on proper, carefully argued papers, not loose emails with half-understood starting points derived from other authority.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It is through interaction and proper discussion that ignorance can be resolved.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards, John.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From: General [general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org <mailto:general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>] on behalf of Andrew Meulenberg [mules333 at gmail.com <mailto:mules333 at gmail.com>]
>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 06, 2015 7:19 AM
>>>>>>>> To: Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion; Andrew Meulenberg
>>>>>>>> Cc: P.G. Vaidya
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [General] double-loop electron model discussion
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dear Richard,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> While I agree with Martin, I think that we will need to discuss the issue in person to iron out the pros & cons. I am presenting a paper at the conference on the fields & potentials of an optical standing wave. It will describe the differences between photonic 'charge' within the photon and point charges. I will probably be using your paper as one of the several references that talk of charge within a photon.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When we all have had time to read each others' papers (hopefully before gathering at the conference), then we will be better able to understand our respective positions and integrate the information into a coherent, self-consistent, mutually acceptable, whole. I would like the actual presentations from the multiple sources to present a complete picture, not the repetitive fragments with the contradictions that presently exist..
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Andrew
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 12:14 PM, Richard Gauthier <richgauthier at gmail.com <mailto:richgauthier at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hello Martin,
>>>>>>>>> Thank you for your thoughtful comments and questions. You are right that any complete model of the electron would include the origin of electric charge. No one currently understands the nature and origin of electric charge—that’s why there are various models of the electron. To say that electric charge originates with electric fields that have a non-zero divergence is to imply that we understand the origin of electromagnetic fields, which are supposed to be generated by accelerated electric charges! A full circle of deep ignorance as the the nature of either. It seems clear to me that both electric charge and electromagnetic fields originate from something more primary and more fundamental than either. I call this more fundamental entity an energy quantum. It generates both electric charge and electromagnetic fields, as well as other physical properties of quantized particles. Its chief characteristic is its energy which is proportional to its frequency: E=hf. It takes on other properties such as the speed of light, wavelength, momentum, spin, magnetic moment, flavor, color charge etc depending on what physical particle such as the photon, electron, gluon, quark etc that it expresses itself as. The energy quantum expresses non-locally through the various particles that it manifests as such as the photon or the electron.
>>>>>>>>> So I don’t think that the electric charge has to be point-like. I do think that the energy quantum, which is not inherently charged, is likely to be point-like. It generates the electron which has all the electron's enigmatic properties. I think that if the energy quantum was better understood as a hypothetical fundamental entity, the quantum properties of the so-called fundamental particles would become less enigmatic. So the electron may be a charged photon, but a photon is an energy quantum expressing as an uncharged photon or as a charged photon (electron). In your and John's model of the electron, electric charge must travel at less than the speed of light, but in my model of the electron as a charged photon, electric charge can travel at light speed and perhaps faster. Neither of our models is proved to the extent that either of them can claim factually that electric charge can or cannot travel at the speed of light or even faster than light. That’s for experiment to decide. But we can ask how our models can lead to a deeper understanding of matter and energy.
>>>>>>>>> with best regards,
>>>>>>>>> Richard
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 4, 2015, at 8:01 AM, Mark, Martin van der <martin.van.der.mark at philips.com <mailto:martin.van.der.mark at philips.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Oh Richard, maybe the main thing is:
>>>>>>>>>> Why put charge in your model to begin with? Wouldn’t it be nice to have it as a consequence? The charge itself is the whole problem to begin with…
>>>>>>>>>> The motivation just puzzles me….
>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, Martin
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Dr. Martin B. van der Mark
>>>>>>>>>> Principal Scientist, Minimally Invasive Healthcare
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Philips Research Europe - Eindhoven
>>>>>>>>>> High Tech Campus, Building 34 (WB2.025)
>>>>>>>>>> Prof. Holstlaan 4
>>>>>>>>>> 5656 AE Eindhoven, The Netherlands
>>>>>>>>>> Tel: +31 40 2747548
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> From: General [mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org <mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>] On Behalf Of Mark, Martin van der
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: woensdag 4 maart 2015 16:56
>>>>>>>>>> To: Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [General] double-loop electron model discussion
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Richard, thank you,
>>>>>>>>>> Firstly, There are 3 intimately related problems. With the self-energy problem comes the 4/3 problem and that of the Poincare stresses. See chapter 28 VOL II of the Feynman Lectures. Neither has to do with the electron being a point. (go back and make sure you read that previous sentence well) When the electron is taken to be smaller than half the classical radius, it is already the end of physics, because there is more energy in the electric field outside than there is mass to begin with.
>>>>>>>>>> Secondly, a charged object whatever you call it and whatever its size cannot go at light velocity. It may approach it, but not reach it. Charge means a special configuration of field, of the sort that has a non-zero divergence, field sticks out in all directions. These things, really inescapably, MUST have a so-called “rest” mass, if only from the point of view of what radiation is about: the transverse part, and what virtual photons, longitudinal polarization or near-field optics are about: mass given by their decay length.
>>>>>>>>>> I hope this is clear enough. “Charged photon” is a crippled name, it suggest a contradiction that I believe (I can be quite wrong, but now you know where it comes from) is also part of the whole concept described and in my opinion cannot be married with physics as it stands or with physics as it (perhaps) will appear to be.
>>>>>>>>>> Very best, Martin
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Dr. Martin B. van der Mark
>>>>>>>>>> Principal Scientist, Minimally Invasive Healthcare
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Philips Research Europe - Eindhoven
>>>>>>>>>> High Tech Campus, Building 34 (WB2.025)
>>>>>>>>>> Prof. Holstlaan 4
>>>>>>>>>> 5656 AE Eindhoven, The Netherlands
>>>>>>>>>> Tel: +31 40 2747548
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> From: General [mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org <mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>] On Behalf Of Richard Gauthier
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: woensdag 4 maart 2015 16:19
>>>>>>>>>> To: Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [General] double-loop electron model discussion
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Martin,
>>>>>>>>>> I agree. The electron’s quantum existence has a unity that must be preserved in any electron model, although I would like to hear why this must be in your opinion.
>>>>>>>>>> The charged photon model of the electron does not require that the charge of the charged photon (i.e. the electron) is a point charge. What we know about the electron is that when it is detected it displays point-like behavior, so at that time the charge as well as the location of the detected electron is point-like (or at least confined within the particular region of detection of the electron.) The same goes for a photon. We cannot say that the photon is point-like when it is traveling undetected through a double slit apparatus, which an electron can do also. As the electron/charged photon goes through the double slits, its charge goes through the double slits also, as does its spin and magnetic moment (or at least the electron's potential for re-expressing all of these properties when it is later detected after passing wavelike through both slits.) The photon is only point-like when it is detected. So the electron and the photon are very similar in this respect, both showing wave-particle duality. I’m claiming that this wave-particle duality property (or Feynman's sum-over-histories property if you don’t like wave-particle duality) of a photon and an electron is essentially the same because the electron is a charged photon and has the properties of a photon like wave-particle duality, interference, diffraction, and entanglement. But I also claim that the term “matter-waves” is less meaningful for an electron if an electron is a charged photon and is not really “matter” at all, unless an uncharged photon is also “matter”. In this view, the term “matter” and “material” are not really relevant to the physicist except as various expressions of energy, if matter is really light or other luminous objects like gluons of various frequencies, conformations, and levels of confinement.
>>>>>>>>>> The charged photon model only requires that the charged photon have the quantum and wave properties of the photon given by E=hf , p=h/lambda and c=lambda f , which by the way are present in your photon with toroidal topology as I understand it. The charged photon carries the charge -e for an electron and +e for the charged photon which is a positron. The light-speed of the electron (which I call a charged photon) is currently unobserved (as Dirac remarked) but this doesn’t mean that this light speed is not part of the electron/charged photon model, since the charged photon model of the electron generates the de Broglie wavelength which IS observed and is based on a) a helically circulating light-speed charged photon, b) the increasing frequency of the light-speed charged photon with increasing electron total energy, and c) the corresponding decrease of wavelength of the light-speed charged photon with increasing electron total energy. Since your toroidal electron model has these photon properties, it will also generate the de Broglie wavelength as does the charged photon model when your electron model has a velocity in the direction perpendicular to the plane of its helical axis. So your electron model will generate the de Broglie wavelength in 2 ways — the way you describe in your and John’s article and in this way as well.
>>>>>>>>>> So I am not attached to the electron as charged photon model as having a point-like electric charge just as I am not attached to an uncharged photon model being point-like. The supposed point-like charge of an electron as leading to unwanted infinities has been a headache to physicists for a long time. Perhaps a new approach is needed.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 3, 2015, at 3:24 PM, Mark, Martin van der <martin.van.der.mark at philips.com <mailto:martin.van.der.mark at philips.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Chip, clearly what John and I have written is too compact to give a full explanation and it should not have been a surprise to me that the subtleties do not always immediately sink in with the reader.
>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps there will be time in at the conference to sit together and discuss the physics, like why, on firm experimental grounds, it absolutely imposible that the electron consists of two parts. It is a very puzzling one, and why the narrowest possible escape may be just, and only just, sufficient: that it is a single quantum of electromagnetic field with a non trivial topplogy. And why any extra property put in from the beginning will destroy the whole concept. Emerging properties should be: charge, spin, magnetic moment, de broglie wavelength, Pauli principle, etc.
>>>>>>>>>>> Really the only thing i do not have too much of a clue about is the mass scale...our model is at least not by itself capable of explaing it. This is one of the things a real theory should provide!
>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, Martin
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Verstuurd vanaf mijn iPhone
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> > Op 3 mrt. 2015 om 18:30 heeft "Chip Akins" <chipakins at gmail.com <mailto:chipakins at gmail.com>> het volgende geschreven:
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > Hi Martin
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > I have read your 1997 paper many times and continue to refer to it during research.
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > Rereading the Feynman Lectures II chapter 28 now.
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > I am fairly certain that my model, derived in part from yours, handles these issues similarly, but adds some specifics for the electron you may be interested in. If you have not read it please give it a look.
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > Chip
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > From: General [mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org <mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>] On Behalf Of Mark, Martin van der
>>>>>>>>>>> > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2015 11:23 AM
>>>>>>>>>>> > To: Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion
>>>>>>>>>>> > Subject: Re: [General] double-loop electron model discussion
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > Hi Chip,
>>>>>>>>>>> > John and I have dealt with it in our model. However, we can only be sure if we can also develop a complete theory: a model is just and only a toy. A very important toy to guide our thinking and to help us taking all aspects on board.
>>>>>>>>>>> > In our 1997 paper, we dealt with just about everything, except for:
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > · The Pauli principle (interference at same Compton frequency)
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > · The weak interaction (linked field lines)
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > · The strong interaction (knotted flow)
>>>>>>>>>>> > Although after all these years I still feel that our model is very adequate, perhaps the most important of our 1997 paper is that it explains the problems related to certain properties of the electron.
>>>>>>>>>>> > So read the paper and you will know a lot more about the physics involved. And do read Chapter 28 VOL II of Feynman.
>>>>>>>>>>> > Good luck,
>>>>>>>>>>> > Martin
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > Dr. Martin B. van der Mark
>>>>>>>>>>> > Principal Scientist, Minimally Invasive Healthcare
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > Philips Research Europe - Eindhoven
>>>>>>>>>>> > High Tech Campus, Building 34 (WB2.025)
>>>>>>>>>>> > Prof. Holstlaan 4
>>>>>>>>>>> > 5656 AE Eindhoven, The Netherlands
>>>>>>>>>>> > Tel: +31 40 2747548
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > From: General [mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org <mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>] On Behalf Of Chip Akins
>>>>>>>>>>> > Sent: dinsdag 3 maart 2015 18:05
>>>>>>>>>>> > To: 'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'
>>>>>>>>>>> > Subject: Re: [General] double-loop electron model discussion
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > Hi Martin
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > Thank you for the comments.
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > In your opinion does the model you and John W. created for the electron (1997) satisfy this self-energy problem you mention?
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > I have read the Feynman lectures, but it has been a while, so time for a review.
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > Infinities are quite distasteful, and an electron has spin and a magnetic moment, so it can be argued that the electron cannot actually be a point, even if it does react at a single point.
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > Thoughts?
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > Chip
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > From: General [mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org <mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>] On Behalf Of Mark, Martin van der
>>>>>>>>>>> > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2015 10:40 AM
>>>>>>>>>>> > To: Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion
>>>>>>>>>>> > Subject: Re: [General] double-loop electron model discussion
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > Hi Chip, Richard and Andrew,
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > 1) Ever read chapter 28 of Vol. II of the Feynman Lectures?
>>>>>>>>>>> > It is about the energy in the field of a charged object, like a football that has been rubbed against a cat (as physicists do).
>>>>>>>>>>> > That energy goes to infinity at smaller and smaller radius. This leads to the self-energy problem for a small particle. (The invention of charged photons doesn’t seem to do this any good)
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > 2) The interaction of an electron is point-like, it means that it consists of a single thing, not two massive parts bound by a force (because that would vibrate at some energy)
>>>>>>>>>>> > Any electron model must be able to make plausible why this is.
>>>>>>>>>>> > Some thinking to do for you perhaps…
>>>>>>>>>>> > Best, Martin
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > Dr. Martin B. van der Mark
>>>>>>>>>>> > Principal Scientist, Minimally Invasive Healthcare
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > Philips Research Europe - Eindhoven
>>>>>>>>>>> > High Tech Campus, Building 34 (WB2.025)
>>>>>>>>>>> > Prof. Holstlaan 4
>>>>>>>>>>> > 5656 AE Eindhoven, The Netherlands
>>>>>>>>>>> > Tel: +31 40 2747548
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > From: General [mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org <mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>] On Behalf Of Chip Akins
>>>>>>>>>>> > Sent: dinsdag 3 maart 2015 17:10
>>>>>>>>>>> > To: 'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'
>>>>>>>>>>> > Subject: Re: [General] double-loop electron model discussion
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > Hi Richard and Andrew
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > Andrew, I have been looking at the annihilation reaction of the electron and positron and considering that the result yields two photons of the energy 0.511MeV. Then assuming the electron and positron are each made of one photon.
>>>>>>>>>>> > So far, possibly due to my assumptions regarding the nature of a photon, I have not been able to logically justify splitting the positive and negative “portions’ of a single photon to create these two oppositely charged particles. To me the positive and negative portions of the photon are really made of the same thing, in that they are simply one field vector pointing toward the positive. The positive and negative ends being part of the same spacetime distortion.
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > I have attached an updated draft of the electron as a confined photon.
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > Chip
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > From: General [mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org <mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>] On Behalf Of Richard Gauthier
>>>>>>>>>>> > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2015 9:08 AM
>>>>>>>>>>> > To: Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion
>>>>>>>>>>> > Subject: Re: [General] double-loop electron model discussion
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > Hi Andrew,
>>>>>>>>>>> > That’s a very interesting view that a wormhole connection between a created electron-positron pair could resolve the EPR paradox. I think that you would need to show that the same wormhole explanation would resolve the EPR paradox with other particles that are quantum mechanically entangled. You would also need to show that the appropriate quantum communication between two particles could pass between their connecting wormhole to keep them entangled.
>>>>>>>>>>> > There are other sub-quantum hypotheses I suppose about how a photon interacting with another photon or an atomic nucleus can create an electron pair. Have you studied them and eliminated them as possible contenders?
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > On Mar 2, 2015, at 7:59 AM, Andrew Meulenberg <mules333 at gmail.com <mailto:mules333 at gmail.com><mailto:mules333 at gmail.com <mailto:mules333 at gmail.com>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > Dear Richard, Chip, et al.,
>>>>>>>>>>> > I thought for a long time about the electron as a self-bound photon, before I realized that I could only make progress when I considered the electron/positron pair as that photon. So, instead of a free photon (a soliton) we must consider 2 self-bound solitons, that can be separated. It was the paraphrased statement(s) from a molecular biologist (who read more physics than I did) that started me on the right path. "Mass and charge are only produced when (& as) the soliton pair are separated." This became the basis of a paper that AJP rejected in 9 minutes from its electronic receipt. However, with that identity of mass and charge in mind and with the recognition of total internal reflection (TIR) as a means of binding light in a "whispering-Gallery" mode, it became clear that the transverse electric field of a bound photon could be 'rectified' by the Goos–Hänchen or Imbert–Fedorov effect<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imbert%E2%80%93Fedorov_effect <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imbert%E2%80%93Fedorov_effect>> of a photon and give the net charge of an electron. This happens at a unique frequency and orbit size where the negative phase shift exactly equals the phase advance of the photon and the electric field can always point out. If the phase is not correct, then the distortion of space (which affects the refractive index of the path and thus the curvature of the photon) is not resonant. However, this difference in curvature, balanced against the phase shift gives a stable configuration.
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > That was the easy part. Nevertheless, I have not yet actually done the full calculations. Someone of the group, with more mathematical ability than I, could do so and coauthor my paper.
>>>>>>>>>>> > My present conjecture: What happens to the field confined inside the bound-photon 'orbit'? It is so greatly concentrated by the path curvature that it becomes 'singular' at the center. Nature 'abhors a singularity' even more than it abhors a vacuum! The extreme energy density distorts space and forms a 'connection' between the forming electron and positron. I believe that the distortion is a wormhole and the connection is thru time. Just as the external field lines of a bar magnet are 'closed' thru the bar, I believe that the electric field lines of an electron/positron (the lepton) pair in space, also form and are closed thru time via the wormhole. The lepton pair remains connected (entangled) by this internal structure until the wormhole 'distributes' among all of the neighboring charges. [I don't believe that the wormhole collapses until a pair annihilates.] Since time does not exist within a wormhole, this resolves the EPR paradox.
>>>>>>>>>>> > In response to Richard's intent "I would like to start a thread that focuses on comparing and contrasting the various double-loop electron models ... to find any common areas of agreement, and any points of difference."
>>>>>>>>>>> > My original double-loop model assumed that every wavelength is divided in 1/2 and then recombined (nearly superposed). It required a different type of phase shift than normally assumed and was nicely represented by the mobius strip with a 1/2 twist per 1/2 cycle (a full rotation for every wavelength).
>>>>>>>>>>> > My present concept, using the Goos–Hänchen or Imbert–Fedorov effect, does not require a relationship between a 'twist' and the photon wavelength, since the path curvature provides the necessary phase shift to keep the fields constant. These options must still be confirmed.
>>>>>>>>>>> > Thus, I have two models with different mobius twist factors. One with a 1/2 twist per 1/2 cycle, and one with no twist at all. I believe that both models would allow the electron to be the lowest level and this structure could have higher levels such as the muon. (However, I don't think that they can be considered excited states.)
>>>>>>>>>>> > Andrew
>>>>>>>>>>> > _____________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > On Sun, Mar 1, 2015 at 8:41 PM, Chip Akins <chipakins at gmail.com <mailto:chipakins at gmail.com><mailto:chipakins at gmail.com <mailto:chipakins at gmail.com>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> > Hi Richard
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > One of the items which intrigued me while studying electron models, was the notion that charge was topologically generated by the spin of the electron. We only find charge in spin 1/2 particles. Looking at U(1) and SU(2) and the Yang-Mills "phase force" idea, led me to be even more convinced.
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > As it turns out, it seems the photon is capable of generating charge topologically, when confined. Of course the simplest method to express that confinement is a monochromatic circular plane wave, certain toroidal models may also work, as long as the negative end of the E field is exposed to the outside.
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > Another attraction in starting with the plane circular model, is the relative ease of analyzing wave interference. It happens that wave interference is very important, because the result is that the effective electrical and magnetic radius is then slightly larger than the transport radius, providing the exact values for the magnetic moment (with anomaly), and the exact electric charge. Wave interference occurs near the center of the model, making the E field less efficient near the center, and thereby shifting the effective E field radius, and therefore the effective magnetic radius, outwards, while not affecting the transport radius.
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > With these values (magnetic moment and charge) defined so accurately in the model, it is still a little puzzling that my models wave interference predicts a value for the fine structure, internal to the electron, of 0.007285993718303 when the actual value (CODATA) is 0.0072973525698. The difference is 0.1557% but I still feel it is significant, and want to know why the difference is there. Maybe I am calculating the interference incorrectly or incompletely. Or maybe there is another contribution to the fine structure which I have missed. While writing this I may have discovered where my error is. I kept telling myself that the fields actually extend far beyond the effective RMS radius but falling off in intensity, and I accounted for that in part of the wave interference calculations, but not all of the interference was calculated, because I failed to see its tiny contribution before now.
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > Another aspect of my model which is unique and not incorporated in any other model we have seen is the relative phase of the electrical and magnetic components of the wave. This aspect becomes important when understanding how the photon is confined.
>>>>>>>>>>> > The electron exhibits many clues to its nature. From this model we can calculate the exact known value for the Quantum Hall effect, by simply running some standard electrical engineering formula using the "voltage", "current", and frequency. This indicates also that an electrical engineering analysis may provide other valuable information. Using a similar approach we can understand that the electron will display a particular phase relationship between E and M components. In a simple EM resonant system the E and M components are shifted 90 degrees at resonance. If we start with a 90 degree phase shift and look at the double loop configuration of the wave we see an apparent 180 degree phase shift in the confined E and M components, placing them on opposite sides of the electron radius at any given instant. Then it is much easier to see that with the E and M fields on opposite sides, and the attraction between these fields, the issue of photon confinement is simplified somewhat.
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > We still have a ways to go, getting answers to many of the remaining questions. But so far it seems like the group has uncovered some important new understanding which may lead us to a clearer, causal, view of physics, and provide a new basis which can describe experiment more fully and accurately.
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > Chip
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>> > From: General [mailto:general-bounces+chipakins <mailto:general-bounces%2Bchipakins><mailto:general-bounces%2Bchipakins <mailto:general-bounces%2Bchipakins>>=gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org <mailto:gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org><mailto:gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org <mailto:gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>>] On Behalf Of Richard Gauthier
>>>>>>>>>>> > Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2015 11:47 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> > To: Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion
>>>>>>>>>>> > Subject: Re: [General] double-loop electron model discussion
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > Hi Chip,
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > Thank you for your thoughtful as well as personal history comments about your interest in modeling the electron. My own interest in the structure and composition of the electron dates back to the late 1980’s. My spiritual guru gave some new ideas in 1986 about how matter might be formed by a kind of life principle transmitted through subtle vibrating life-energy entities that have both a mental and a physical portion. That idea intrigued me and soon I tried to apply the idea to make a model of a photon as being composed of millions of these oscillating life-particles. I had mainly my intuition to guide me. My photon model soon contained a single circulating energy entity (a superluminal energy quantum) traveling helically at a 45 degree angle with the speed c sqrt(2) and a total momentum along a helical trajectory of (h/lambda) sqrt(2). The energy quantum's helical radius is the photon’s wavelength lambda divided by 2 pi. This result came out of the requirement that the photon model should have its experimental value of spin hbar (or minus hbar) generated by the transverse component of the superluminal energy quantum's total momentum along its helical trajectory, while having the transluminal energy quantum’s longitudinal component of momentum be the photon's linear momentum p=h/lambda.
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > I then modeled the electron as a closed charged photon-like object. I knew very little about the Dirac equation except its prediction of antimatter and that the electron has a 4pi rotational symmetry. I also found that a single closed-loop of one wavelength of a photon (the Compton wavelength h/mc) with the electron’s rest energy mc^2 yields a spin of 1 hbar — twice the value of the electron’s spin. It hit me that making a double-loop of a single wavelength photon produces an electron model with a spin of 1/2 hbar.
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > While making my electron model I realized that it should also have the electron’s magnetic moment M — approximately the magnitude of the Bohr magneton (e hbar)/2m. I set the electron model to have the Bohr magneton for its magnetic moment by adjusting the radius of the closed helical path of the helically moving charged superluminal energy quantum so that its helically circulating charge generates the Dirac equation electron's Bohr magneton for the electron model. (Choosing a slightly larger helical radius generates the electron’s exact experimental value of magnetic moment which is a little larger than the Bohr magneton’s magnitude.)
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > Later I started analyzing other people’s cyclical models of the electron more closely. I found that Dirac had claimed that electrons actually move at the speed of light, but that only a sub-luminal speed can be observed. I found two analyses of the Dirac equation that suggested that the path of a moving electron’s charge can be described as light-speed along an open helix. This gave me the idea to fit my model of the circulating charged photon for a resting electron to this light-speed helical approach. I realized that the circulating photon in the electron model would have an increased frequency f corresponding to its increased total energy gamma mc^2 when the electron moves forward, and that the corresponding wavelength of this circulating charged photon would decrease with this increasing frequency, in order to keep the speed of light of the circulating charged photon constant. The radius of the charged photon’s helix was found to decrease with increasing electron velocity by the factor gamma^2 in order for the photon’s wavelength to decrease as described as the frequency of the charged photon increases with increasing electron speed and total energy. All the math worked out nicely, including the generation of the electron’s spin 1/2 hbar for a slow moving electron from the tangential component mc of the charged photon’s total momentum gamma mc along its helical axis, multiplied by the radius hbar/2mc of the charged photon’s helical axis for a slow moving electron. And I realized that any speed-of-light double-looping photon model for an electron should also follow a corresponding helical path whose radius decreases in the same way with the electron’s increase speed. This is because the result only depends on the relations E=hf, p=h/lambda , and c= lambda f , the basic quantum energy and momentum equations for a photon and the equation for wave motion with speed c.
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > Although I knew that any acceptable electron model would have to generate the relativistic de Broglie wavelength Ldb = h/(gamma mv) , I was quite surprised that this result falls out so easily from the circulating charged photon model of a moving electron, where the longitudinal component of the circulating charged photon’s wave vector k yields the wave number that corresponds to the relativistic de Broglie wavelength. Furthermore, this simple result for the origin of the electron’s de Broglie wavelength suggests that the quantum wave functions for a moving electron, which depend heavily on the electron's de Broglie wavelength, are produced mathematically from the waves generated by the circulating charged photon that models the electron.
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > Richard
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> >> On Feb 28, 2015, at 6:47 AM, Chip Akins <chipakins at gmail.com <mailto:chipakins at gmail.com><mailto:chipakins at gmail.com <mailto:chipakins at gmail.com>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >> Hi Richard and ALL
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >> You asked for a comparison of electron models.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >> Since 1986, while having lunch with a mathematician, Eric Peterson, I have felt that the electron was made up of EM waves, or a photon.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >> Several of us have come to the same conclusion.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >> When I saw your model from 2005 many things started to make sense. That is why I was so excited and interested to fully pursue the math to try to deeply understand your TEQ model. It was quite informative and inspiring to see your work.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >> Since that time, principally due to an Occam's razor argument, I have returned to the view that TEQ's are not required to model the electron. While I still feel that it may be possible that TEQ's exist, I do not find, in my view, that it is required for the modeling of the photon and electron.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >> When I later saw John W and Martin's work from 1997 I was again very interested, principally because they were saying the same thing I was thinking, in general.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >> While running the math and testing the model from John W and Martin, it occurred to me that we had to have some sort of photon model to build the electron from. So I produced the simplest model I could imagine which would fulfill what I felt then was the basic criteria. My view of the basic criteria has since changed due to this collaboration, so I am working now to update my electron model. However it seems most of the electron model remains intact.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >> The fundamental differences between my model and John W. and Martin's model are as follows:
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >> I found that wave interference may be precisely the cause for the exact value of the magnetic moment anomaly, and the cause for the exact value for the elementary charge.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >> That wave interference, incidentally, produces a new view of the fine structure constant in the electron.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >> My motivation, in part, to do this work, was because we have to provide an electron model which is simple in comparison, and competes with current theory and models in accuracy, before such a model will be considered a viable alternative.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >> My model currently falls short of some of the goals that I feel we will need, in order for our work to be considered noteworthy and to be eventually accepted.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >> My model also demonstrates the cause for inertial mass, but I think John W. and Martin's model may illustrate the same property. And in fact, all confined photon models may show the same attribute of inertial mass.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >> There are implications of the work we are doing which we also need to discuss. If Matter is made from light, when you think about its implications on relativity, leads to the existence of a preferred reference rest frame in space, leading us toward Chandra's view and CTF.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >> Working with all of you is both enlightening and inspiring.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >> Chip
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>> >> From: General
>>>>>>>>>>> >> [mailto:general-bounces+chipakins <mailto:general-bounces%2Bchipakins><mailto:general-bounces%2Bchipakins <mailto:general-bounces%2Bchipakins>>=gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandpart <mailto:gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandpart><mailto:gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandpart <mailto:gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandpart>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >> icles.org <http://icles.org/><http://icles.org/ <http://icles.org/>>] On Behalf Of Richard Gauthier
>>>>>>>>>>> >> Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 11:10 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> >> To: Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion
>>>>>>>>>>> >> Subject: [General] double-loop electron model discussion
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >> I would like to start a thread that focuses on comparing and contrasting the various double-loop electron models, mainly John and Martin’s (J/M's), Chip’s, Vivian's and mine, and any others that people may know of, to find any common areas of agreement, and any points of difference. I think we are all agreed that the resting electron in our various models has spin 1/2 hbar. Chip’s model is based on J/M's model. I’d like to ask Chip, if I might, what commonalities and differences exist between J/M’s electron model and Chip's electron model. We can go on from there, if that’s agreeable.
>>>>>>>>>>> >> Richard
>>>>>>>>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> >> If you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of
>>>>>>>>>>> >> Light and Particles General Discussion List at chipakins at gmail.com <mailto:chipakins at gmail.com><mailto:chipakins at gmail.com <mailto:chipakins at gmail.com>> <a
>>>>>>>>>>> >> href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-n <http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-n>
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>>>>>>>>>>> >> m=1">
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>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> >> If you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of
>>>>>>>>>>> >> Light and Particles General Discussion List at richgauthier at gmail.com <mailto:richgauthier at gmail.com><mailto:richgauthier at gmail.com <mailto:richgauthier at gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >> <a
>>>>>>>>>>> >> href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-n <http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-n>
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>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> > If you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light and Particles General Discussion List at chipakins at gmail.com <mailto:chipakins at gmail.com><mailto:chipakins at gmail.com <mailto:chipakins at gmail.com>> <a href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/chipakins%40gmail.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1 <http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/chipakins%40gmail.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1>">
>>>>>>>>>>> > Click here to unsubscribe
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>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> > If you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light and Particles General Discussion List at mules333 at gmail.com <mailto:mules333 at gmail.com><mailto:mules333 at gmail.com <mailto:mules333 at gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>> > <a href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/mules333%40gmail.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1 <http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/mules333%40gmail.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1>">
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>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> > If you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light and Particles General Discussion List at richgauthier at gmail.com <mailto:richgauthier at gmail.com><mailto:richgauthier at gmail.com <mailto:richgauthier at gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>> > <a href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/richgauthier%40gmail.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1 <http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/richgauthier%40gmail.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1>">
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>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > ________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> > The information contained in this message may be confidential and legally protected under applicable law. The message is intended solely for the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, forwarding, dissemination, or reproduction of this message is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by return e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message.
>>>>>>>>>>> > <The Electron as a Confined Photon CA.pdf>
>>>>>>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> > If you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light and Particles General Discussion List at martin.van.der.mark at philips.com <mailto:martin.van.der.mark at philips.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> > <a href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/martin.van.der.mark%40philips.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1 <http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/martin.van.der.mark%40philips.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1>">
>>>>>>>>>>> > Click here to unsubscribe
>>>>>>>>>>> > </a>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Martin
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I have read your 1997 paper many times and continue to refer to it during research.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Rereading the Feynman Lectures II chapter 28 now.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I am fairly certain that my model, derived in part from yours, handles these issues similarly, but adds some specifics for the electron you may be interested in. If you have not read it please give it a look.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Chip
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> From: General [mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org <mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>] On Behalf Of Mark, Martin van der
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2015 11:23 AM
>>>>>>>>>>> To: Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [General] double-loop electron model discussion
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Chip,
>>>>>>>>>>> John and I have dealt with it in our model. However, we can only be sure if we can also develop a complete theory: a model is just and only a toy. A very important toy to guide our thinking and to help us taking all aspects on board.
>>>>>>>>>>> In our 1997 paper, we dealt with just about everything, except for:
>>>>>>>>>>> · The Pauli principle (interference at same Compton frequency)
>>>>>>>>>>> · The weak interaction (linked field lines)
>>>>>>>>>>> · The strong interaction (knotted flow)
>>>>>>>>>>> Although after all these years I still feel that our model is very adequate, perhaps the most important of our 1997 paper is that it explains the problems related to certain properties of the electron.
>>>>>>>>>>> So read the paper and you will know a lot more about the physics involved. And do read Chapter 28 VOL II of Feynman.
>>>>>>>>>>> Good luck,
>>>>>>>>>>> Martin
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Dr. Martin B. van der Mark
>>>>>>>>>>> Principal Scientist, Minimally Invasive Healthcare
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Philips Research Europe - Eindhoven
>>>>>>>>>>> High Tech Campus, Building 34 (WB2.025)
>>>>>>>>>>> Prof. Holstlaan 4
>>>>>>>>>>> 5656 AE Eindhoven, The Netherlands
>>>>>>>>>>> Tel: +31 40 2747548
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> From: General [mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org <mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>] On Behalf Of Chip Akins
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: dinsdag 3 maart 2015 18:05
>>>>>>>>>>> To: 'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [General] double-loop electron model discussion
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Martin
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for the comments.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In your opinion does the model you and John W. created for the electron (1997) satisfy this self-energy problem you mention?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I have read the Feynman lectures, but it has been a while, so time for a review.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Infinities are quite distasteful, and an electron has spin and a magnetic moment, so it can be argued that the electron cannot actually be a point, even if it does react at a single point.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Chip
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> From: General [mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org <mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>] On Behalf Of Mark, Martin van der
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2015 10:40 AM
>>>>>>>>>>> To: Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [General] double-loop electron model discussion
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Chip, Richard and Andrew,
>>>>>>>>>>> 1) Ever read chapter 28 of Vol. II of the Feynman Lectures?
>>>>>>>>>>> It is about the energy in the field of a charged object, like a football that has been rubbed against a cat (as physicists do).
>>>>>>>>>>> That energy goes to infinity at smaller and smaller radius. This leads to the self-energy problem for a small particle. (The invention of charged photons doesn’t seem to do this any good)
>>>>>>>>>>> 2) The interaction of an electron is point-like, it means that it consists of a single thing, not two massive parts bound by a force (because that would vibrate at some energy)
>>>>>>>>>>> Any electron model must be able to make plausible why this is.
>>>>>>>>>>> Some thinking to do for you perhaps…
>>>>>>>>>>> Best, Martin
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Dr. Martin B. van der Mark
>>>>>>>>>>> Principal Scientist, Minimally Invasive Healthcare
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Philips Research Europe - Eindhoven
>>>>>>>>>>> High Tech Campus, Building 34 (WB2.025)
>>>>>>>>>>> Prof. Holstlaan 4
>>>>>>>>>>> 5656 AE Eindhoven, The Netherlands
>>>>>>>>>>> Tel: +31 40 2747548
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> From: General [mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org <mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>] On Behalf Of Chip Akins
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: dinsdag 3 maart 2015 17:10
>>>>>>>>>>> To: 'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [General] double-loop electron model discussion
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Richard and Andrew
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Andrew, I have been looking at the annihilation reaction of the electron and positron and considering that the result yields two photons of the energy 0.511MeV. Then assuming the electron and positron are each made of one photon.
>>>>>>>>>>> So far, possibly due to my assumptions regarding the nature of a photon, I have not been able to logically justify splitting the positive and negative “portions’ of a single photon to create these two oppositely charged particles. To me the positive and negative portions of the photon are really made of the same thing, in that they are simply one field vector pointing toward the positive. The positive and negative ends being part of the same spacetime distortion.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I have attached an updated draft of the electron as a confined photon.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Chip
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> From: General [mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org <mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>] On Behalf Of Richard Gauthier
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2015 9:08 AM
>>>>>>>>>>> To: Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [General] double-loop electron model discussion
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Andrew,
>>>>>>>>>>> That’s a very interesting view that a wormhole connection between a created electron-positron pair could resolve the EPR paradox. I think that you would need to show that the same wormhole explanation would resolve the EPR paradox with other particles that are quantum mechanically entangled. You would also need to show that the appropriate quantum communication between two particles could pass between their connecting wormhole to keep them entangled.
>>>>>>>>>>> There are other sub-quantum hypotheses I suppose about how a photon interacting with another photon or an atomic nucleus can create an electron pair. Have you studied them and eliminated them as possible contenders?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 2, 2015, at 7:59 AM, Andrew Meulenberg <mules333 at gmail.com <mailto:mules333 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear Richard, Chip, et al.,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I thought for a long time about the electron as a self-bound photon, before I realized that I could only make progress when I considered the electron/positron pair as that photon. So, instead of a free photon (a soliton) we must consider 2 self-bound solitons, that can be separated. It was the paraphrased statement(s) from a molecular biologist (who read more physics than I did) that started me on the right path. "Mass and charge are only produced when (& as) the soliton pair are separated." This became the basis of a paper that AJP rejected in 9 minutes from its electronic receipt. However, with that identity of mass and charge in mind and with the recognition of total internal reflection (TIR) as a means of binding light in a "whispering-Gallery" mode, it became clear that the transverse electric field of a bound photon could be 'rectified' by the Goos–Hänchen or Imbert–Fedorov effect <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imbert%E2%80%93Fedorov_effect> of a photon and give the net charge of an electron. This happens at a unique frequency and orbit size where the negative phase shift exactly equals the phase advance of the photon and the electric field can always point out. If the phase is not correct, then the distortion of space (which affects the refractive index of the path and thus the curvature of the photon) is not resonant. However, this difference in curvature, balanced against the phase shift gives a stable configuration.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> That was the easy part. Nevertheless, I have not yet actually done the full calculations. Someone of the group, with more mathematical ability than I, could do so and coauthor my paper.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> My present conjecture: What happens to the field confined inside the bound-photon 'orbit'? It is so greatly concentrated by the path curvature that it becomes 'singular' at the center. Nature 'abhors a singularity' even more than it abhors a vacuum! The extreme energy density distorts space and forms a 'connection' between the forming electron and positron. I believe that the distortion is a wormhole and the connection is thru time. Just as the external field lines of a bar magnet are 'closed' thru the bar, I believe that the electric field lines of an electron/positron (the lepton) pair in space, also form and are closed thru time via the wormhole. The lepton pair remains connected (entangled) by this internal structure until the wormhole 'distributes' among all of the neighboring charges. [I don't believe that the wormhole collapses until a pair annihilates.] Since time does not exist within a wormhole, this resolves the EPR paradox.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> In response to Richard's intent "I would like to start a thread that focuses on comparing and contrasting the various double-loop electron models ... to find any common areas of agreement, and any points of difference."
>>>>>>>>>>>> My original double-loop model assumed that every wavelength is divided in 1/2 and then recombined (nearly superposed). It required a different type of phase shift than normally assumed and was nicely represented by the mobius strip with a 1/2 twist per 1/2 cycle (a full rotation for every wavelength).
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> My present concept, using the Goos–Hänchen or Imbert–Fedorov effect, does not require a relationship between a 'twist' and the photon wavelength, since the path curvature provides the necessary phase shift to keep the fields constant. These options must still be confirmed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thus, I have two models with different mobius twist factors. One with a 1/2 twist per 1/2 cycle, and one with no twist at all. I believe that both models would allow the electron to be the lowest level and this structure could have higher levels such as the muon. (However, I don't think that they can be considered excited states.)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Andrew
>>>>>>>>>>>> _____________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 1, 2015 at 8:41 PM, Chip Akins <chipakins at gmail.com <mailto:chipakins at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Richard
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> One of the items which intrigued me while studying electron models, was the notion that charge was topologically generated by the spin of the electron. We only find charge in spin 1/2 particles. Looking at U(1) and SU(2) and the Yang-Mills "phase force" idea, led me to be even more convinced.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> As it turns out, it seems the photon is capable of generating charge topologically, when confined. Of course the simplest method to express that confinement is a monochromatic circular plane wave, certain toroidal models may also work, as long as the negative end of the E field is exposed to the outside.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Another attraction in starting with the plane circular model, is the relative ease of analyzing wave interference. It happens that wave interference is very important, because the result is that the effective electrical and magnetic radius is then slightly larger than the transport radius, providing the exact values for the magnetic moment (with anomaly), and the exact electric charge. Wave interference occurs near the center of the model, making the E field less efficient near the center, and thereby shifting the effective E field radius, and therefore the effective magnetic radius, outwards, while not affecting the transport radius.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> With these values (magnetic moment and charge) defined so accurately in the model, it is still a little puzzling that my models wave interference predicts a value for the fine structure, internal to the electron, of 0.007285993718303 when the actual value (CODATA) is 0.0072973525698. The difference is 0.1557% but I still feel it is significant, and want to know why the difference is there. Maybe I am calculating the interference incorrectly or incompletely. Or maybe there is another contribution to the fine structure which I have missed. While writing this I may have discovered where my error is. I kept telling myself that the fields actually extend far beyond the effective RMS radius but falling off in intensity, and I accounted for that in part of the wave interference calculations, but not all of the interference was calculated, because I failed to see its tiny contribution before now.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Another aspect of my model which is unique and not incorporated in any other model we have seen is the relative phase of the electrical and magnetic components of the wave. This aspect becomes important when understanding how the photon is confined.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The electron exhibits many clues to its nature. From this model we can calculate the exact known value for the Quantum Hall effect, by simply running some standard electrical engineering formula using the "voltage", "current", and frequency. This indicates also that an electrical engineering analysis may provide other valuable information. Using a similar approach we can understand that the electron will display a particular phase relationship between E and M components. In a simple EM resonant system the E and M components are shifted 90 degrees at resonance. If we start with a 90 degree phase shift and look at the double loop configuration of the wave we see an apparent 180 degree phase shift in the confined E and M components, placing them on opposite sides of the electron radius at any given instant. Then it is much easier to see that with the E and M fields on opposite sides, and the attraction between these fields, the issue of photon confinement is simplified somewhat.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> We still have a ways to go, getting answers to many of the remaining questions. But so far it seems like the group has uncovered some important new understanding which may lead us to a clearer, causal, view of physics, and provide a new basis which can describe experiment more fully and accurately.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chip
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: General [mailto:general-bounces+chipakins <mailto:general-bounces%2Bchipakins>=gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org <mailto:gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>] On Behalf Of Richard Gauthier
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2015 11:47 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [General] double-loop electron model discussion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Chip,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for your thoughtful as well as personal history comments about your interest in modeling the electron. My own interest in the structure and composition of the electron dates back to the late 1980’s. My spiritual guru gave some new ideas in 1986 about how matter might be formed by a kind of life principle transmitted through subtle vibrating life-energy entities that have both a mental and a physical portion. That idea intrigued me and soon I tried to apply the idea to make a model of a photon as being composed of millions of these oscillating life-particles. I had mainly my intuition to guide me. My photon model soon contained a single circulating energy entity (a superluminal energy quantum) traveling helically at a 45 degree angle with the speed c sqrt(2) and a total momentum along a helical trajectory of (h/lambda) sqrt(2). The energy quantum's helical radius is the photon’s wavelength lambda divided by 2 pi. This result came out of the requirement that the photon model should have its experimental value of spin hbar (or minus hbar) generated by the transverse component of the superluminal energy quantum's total momentum along its helical trajectory, while having the transluminal energy quantum’s longitudinal component of momentum be the photon's linear momentum p=h/lambda.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I then modeled the electron as a closed charged photon-like object. I knew very little about the Dirac equation except its prediction of antimatter and that the electron has a 4pi rotational symmetry. I also found that a single closed-loop of one wavelength of a photon (the Compton wavelength h/mc) with the electron’s rest energy mc^2 yields a spin of 1 hbar — twice the value of the electron’s spin. It hit me that making a double-loop of a single wavelength photon produces an electron model with a spin of 1/2 hbar.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> While making my electron model I realized that it should also have the electron’s magnetic moment M — approximately the magnitude of the Bohr magneton (e hbar)/2m. I set the electron model to have the Bohr magneton for its magnetic moment by adjusting the radius of the closed helical path of the helically moving charged superluminal energy quantum so that its helically circulating charge generates the Dirac equation electron's Bohr magneton for the electron model. (Choosing a slightly larger helical radius generates the electron’s exact experimental value of magnetic moment which is a little larger than the Bohr magneton’s magnitude.)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Later I started analyzing other people’s cyclical models of the electron more closely. I found that Dirac had claimed that electrons actually move at the speed of light, but that only a sub-luminal speed can be observed. I found two analyses of the Dirac equation that suggested that the path of a moving electron’s charge can be described as light-speed along an open helix. This gave me the idea to fit my model of the circulating charged photon for a resting electron to this light-speed helical approach. I realized that the circulating photon in the electron model would have an increased frequency f corresponding to its increased total energy gamma mc^2 when the electron moves forward, and that the corresponding wavelength of this circulating charged photon would decrease with this increasing frequency, in order to keep the speed of light of the circulating charged photon constant. The radius of the charged photon’s helix was found to decrease with increasing electron velocity by the factor gamma^2 in order for the photon’s wavelength to decrease as described as the frequency of the charged photon increases with increasing electron speed and total energy. All the math worked out nicely, including the generation of the electron’s spin 1/2 hbar for a slow moving electron from the tangential component mc of the charged photon’s total momentum gamma mc along its helical axis, multiplied by the radius hbar/2mc of the charged photon’s helical axis for a slow moving electron. And I realized that any speed-of-light double-looping photon model for an electron should also follow a corresponding helical path whose radius decreases in the same way with the electron’s increase speed. This is because the result only depends on the relations E=hf, p=h/lambda , and c= lambda f , the basic quantum energy and momentum equations for a photon and the equation for wave motion with speed c.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Although I knew that any acceptable electron model would have to generate the relativistic de Broglie wavelength Ldb = h/(gamma mv) , I was quite surprised that this result falls out so easily from the circulating charged photon model of a moving electron, where the longitudinal component of the circulating charged photon’s wave vector k yields the wave number that corresponds to the relativistic de Broglie wavelength. Furthermore, this simple result for the origin of the electron’s de Broglie wavelength suggests that the quantum wave functions for a moving electron, which depend heavily on the electron's de Broglie wavelength, are produced mathematically from the waves generated by the circulating charged photon that models the electron.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Richard
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > On Feb 28, 2015, at 6:47 AM, Chip Akins <chipakins at gmail.com <mailto:chipakins at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Hi Richard and ALL
>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > You asked for a comparison of electron models.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Since 1986, while having lunch with a mathematician, Eric Peterson, I have felt that the electron was made up of EM waves, or a photon.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Several of us have come to the same conclusion.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > When I saw your model from 2005 many things started to make sense. That is why I was so excited and interested to fully pursue the math to try to deeply understand your TEQ model. It was quite informative and inspiring to see your work.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Since that time, principally due to an Occam's razor argument, I have returned to the view that TEQ's are not required to model the electron. While I still feel that it may be possible that TEQ's exist, I do not find, in my view, that it is required for the modeling of the photon and electron.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > When I later saw John W and Martin's work from 1997 I was again very interested, principally because they were saying the same thing I was thinking, in general.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > While running the math and testing the model from John W and Martin, it occurred to me that we had to have some sort of photon model to build the electron from. So I produced the simplest model I could imagine which would fulfill what I felt then was the basic criteria. My view of the basic criteria has since changed due to this collaboration, so I am working now to update my electron model. However it seems most of the electron model remains intact.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > The fundamental differences between my model and John W. and Martin's model are as follows:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > I found that wave interference may be precisely the cause for the exact value of the magnetic moment anomaly, and the cause for the exact value for the elementary charge.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > That wave interference, incidentally, produces a new view of the fine structure constant in the electron.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > My motivation, in part, to do this work, was because we have to provide an electron model which is simple in comparison, and competes with current theory and models in accuracy, before such a model will be considered a viable alternative.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > My model currently falls short of some of the goals that I feel we will need, in order for our work to be considered noteworthy and to be eventually accepted.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > My model also demonstrates the cause for inertial mass, but I think John W. and Martin's model may illustrate the same property. And in fact, all confined photon models may show the same attribute of inertial mass.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > There are implications of the work we are doing which we also need to discuss. If Matter is made from light, when you think about its implications on relativity, leads to the existence of a preferred reference rest frame in space, leading us toward Chandra's view and CTF.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Working with all of you is both enlightening and inspiring.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Chip
>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > From: General
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > [mailto:general-bounces+chipakins <mailto:general-bounces%2Bchipakins>=gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandpart <mailto:gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandpart>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > icles.org <http://icles.org/>] On Behalf Of Richard Gauthier
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 11:10 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > To: Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Subject: [General] double-loop electron model discussion
>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > I would like to start a thread that focuses on comparing and contrasting the various double-loop electron models, mainly John and Martin’s (J/M's), Chip’s, Vivian's and mine, and any others that people may know of, to find any common areas of agreement, and any points of difference. I think we are all agreed that the resting electron in our various models has spin 1/2 hbar. Chip’s model is based on J/M's model. I’d like to ask Chip, if I might, what commonalities and differences exist between J/M’s electron model and Chip's electron model. We can go on from there, if that’s agreeable.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Richard
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
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