[General] Quantisation of classical electromagnetism

Chip Akins chipakins at gmail.com
Wed May 6 09:58:23 PDT 2015


Hi All

 

A thought.

 

Several days ago there was a discussion of electron spin, and it was stated
that the electron spins in a spherical manner.

While the electron "at rest" may actually spin in a spherical manner,
perhaps a tumbling toroid, -- experiment using electron beams in a magnetic
fields indicate that the spin is principally perpendicular to the direction
of travel. The electrons travel in a helical path in a magnetic field. It
seems this is due to the effects of their orientation, spin, and magnetic
moment.

 

Richard has pointed out that we will seldom, if ever, encounter an electron
"at rest" because they are almost always traveling, and it seems they travel
oriented with the principal spin axis parallel to the direction of travel. 

 

One caveat is that we have to remember that when attempting to measure
electron spin, we are almost always instead measuring the ratio of the
angular momentum to the magnetic moment, with consideration for mass
naturally included. (Stern-Gerlach type experiments.)

 

Chip

 

From: General
[mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.
org] On Behalf Of Mark, Martin van der
Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 4:59 AM
To: Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion
Cc: Nick Bailey; Kyran Williamson; Michael Wright; Manohar .; Ariane Mandray
Subject: Re: [General] Quantisation of classical electromagnetism

 

Andrew, John, all

 

John W is quite right as well, just a small remark on the hydrogen atom.

By the virial theorem, for a 1/r potential, potential energy is minus two
times the kinetic energy and kinetic energy is equal to the binding energy
(13.6 eV in the ground state).

For the structure of the atom there are three conditions, one of
electromagnetic, and two of inertial nature.

1) The coulomb potential runs to minus infinity, that is very deep. It comes
from the charge of proton and electron.

2) Then the centrifugal force (depends on mass of proton and electron)  must
balance the Coulomb force, this could have been in a continuum of orbits if
the electron and proton were just particles (without a wave nature) (see
gravitation and solar system for an exact analogy),

3) The mass of proton and electron set the scale of the de Broglie
wavelength (which, incidentally, is exactly the same for proton and electron
in the bound state), and hence the bound state has a finite size, 0.1 nm
diameter for the ground state. The particle's waves must interfere
constructively within the boundary conditions: quantized energy levels
appear.

Cheers, Martin

 

Dr. Martin B. van der Mark

Principal Scientist, Minimally Invasive Healthcare

 

Philips Research Europe - Eindhoven

High Tech Campus, Building 34 (WB2.025)

Prof. Holstlaan 4

5656 AE  Eindhoven, The Netherlands

Tel: +31 40 2747548

 

From: General [
<mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com at lists.natureoflighta
ndparticles.org>
mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com at lists.natureoflightan
dparticles.org] On Behalf Of John Williamson
Sent: woensdag 6 mei 2015 11:12
To: Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion
Cc: Nick Bailey; Kyran Williamson; Michael Wright; Manohar .; Ariane Mandray
Subject: Re: [General] Quantisation of classical electromagnetism

 

Hihi,

A lot of questions there Andrew.

All quantised means is "countable".

Yes there are exceptions. Mostly exceptions! The quantised electron charge
comes, for me, from an interaction rate. Hence the reason all charges in
contact have the same value. Other quantum numbers may just be an intrinsic
sign- such as the lepton number difference between the positron and the
electron. Quantised states in atoms and quantum wells are resonant states,
indeed. In the FQHE these are bound quasi-particle-flux-quantum states.
These are more musical ratios, than integer numbers. Quantised conductance,
for example, is simply a rate-per-single-electron. The popular press and
Wikipedia tends to sweep all the unknowns into one big unknown. Thta thing
which cannot be known - the great UNCERTAINTY! Assigning a quantum number to
something is tantamount to putting all your lack of understanding into a
single number. Too much of this kind of shit passes as understanding!

The ground state of the Hydrogen atom is that energy where potential=
kinetic, and the de Broglie wavelength of the electron equals the de Broglie
wavelength of the proton. A single wavelength with periodic boundary
conditions - for both! What a beautiful resonance! Simple, singing resonance
- with no dissipation. Physics tries indeed to mystify this, but it is
really a simple congruence. Engineers know better!

Indeed the Coulomb potential goes way down (as you argue so beautifully in
your paper). Shorter lengths, however, are less than one wavelength and
hence, though they could be resonant, actually at a higher energy, through
interference. The one wavelength state is the ground state. For this state
the Coulomb field, cancelled outside the Bohr radius corresponds exactly to
the 13.6 eV binding energy of the Hydrogen atom. All very simple and very
beautiful!

Martin is, as usual, right in (pretty much) everything he says. Especially
in that it is very important!

Regards, John W.

  _____  

From: General
[general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk at lists.natureoflightandparticl
es.org] on behalf of Mark, Martin van der [martin.van.der.mark at philips.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 8:48 AM
To: Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion
Cc: Nick Bailey; Kyran Williamson; Michael Wright; Manohar .; Ariane Mandray
Subject: Re: [General] Quantisation of classical electromagnetism

Dear Andrew,

I have good answers to most of your questions, but have no time right now to
write them down,
we must come back to this, it is very important indeed.

In any case it comes down to the following:

*         Quantization comes from any wave equation with imposed boundary
conditions.

*         Uncertainty is no more than what the Fourier limit tells you.

*         Copenhagen interpretation is Copenhagen mystification: although it
is not very wrong at the simple level, it takes away any possibility for
improvement by dogma.

*         Wave/particle dualism is the consequence of special relativity,
see Louis de Broglie.

*         The measurement problem  for the smallest things has to with 3
things: (in)coherence (=phase information of the wavefunction), intrinsic
disturbance: the probe is non negligible, and the Fourier limit.

*         There is only one crucial difference with classical mechanics:
non-local action in EPR-like experiments.

The latter is wider spread than quantum mechanics. Understanding space-time,
non-locality and the connection/blend of fields with space-time is the least
understood bit of physics.

I have to go!

Cheers, Martin

 

Dr. Martin B. van der Mark

Principal Scientist, Minimally Invasive Healthcare

 

Philips Research Europe - Eindhoven

High Tech Campus, Building 34 (WB2.025)

Prof. Holstlaan 4

5656 AE  Eindhoven, The Netherlands

Tel: +31 40 2747548

 

From: General [
<mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com at lists.natureoflighta
ndparticles.org>
mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com at lists.natureoflightan
dparticles.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Meulenberg
Sent: woensdag 6 mei 2015 8:26
To: Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion
Cc: Nick Bailey; Kyran Williamson; Michael Wright; Manohar .; Ariane Mandray
Subject: Re: [General] Quantisation of classical electromagnetism

 

Dear John W,

Since you say that the bell's resonance makes its sounds quantized, then are
all quantized states just resonances? Are there exceptions? If not, then why
does QM not use the classical, understandable, concept of resonance. I have
assumed that it is just the priesthood's way of assuring that its 'flock'
does not revert to the 'ol time religion'.

So, if a bell is quantized because of its mass and structure, then I suppose
that a photon can be similarly 'quantized' because of its energy and
structure. The classical concept of the soliton is no longer acceptable
notation for a physical phenomenon.

On the same basis, is a black hole quantized? Because it has a specific
'size' for a given mass, and 'rings' when excited (is this an incorrect
conclusion from some of the recent galactic density distributions attributed
to the big bang/), it should be classed as a quantum bell.

A deeper question (not just one of semantics) is how can one represent
resonances on a potential-energy diagram? The 1/r coulomb potential is a
straight line on a log-log plot of potential energy vs radius. Is there any
way of correctly representing (e.g. by 'dips') the total energy minima
associated with resonant states of the electron orbitals? In other words,
how does one relate energy and resonances? This issue is one that I have
occasionally been thinking about related to both electrons and photons. I
assume that it is necessary to plot total energy (or some other form) rather
than just potential energy. Or, is it sufficient to include all forms of
potential energy?

QM often states that the atomic ground state is the minimum energy level.
Yet, obviously, the Coulomb potential of the nucleus goes much deeper. QM
claims that, by this statement, it overcomes the classical dilemma of the
electron spiraling into the nucleus. Classical physics can easily solve the
problem by use of conservation of energy and momentum and inclusion of
photons with their specific characteristics. QM, by not including the photon
in the Schrodinger equation, must solve the problem by mathematics and fiat,
not by physics.

We have to be careful that we do not fall into the same trap as QM did with
the atom, when we try to define the photon and the electron.

Andrew


 

 

On Wed, May 6, 2015 at 9:56 AM, John Williamson
<John.Williamson at glasgow.ac.uk <mailto:John.Williamson at glasgow.ac.uk> >
wrote:

Hello Andrew,

You ask such good questions!

Yes of course it is - to the fundamental frequency and to its harmonics.
Quantisation comes down to something that simple. In the paper I circulated
the quantisation is not put in (as it is not for the bell), but comes out
(as it does for the church bell) as a consequence of the nature of the
object/ objects concerned (emitter and absorber for the photon resonance).

Everything in quantisation comes down, fundamentally, to coherence,
resonance and harmony.

I gave a talk entitled "How the universe listens to itself:spherical music"
at a conference back in 2009 - in which I used the analogy of a spherical
bell (and its inverse) to explain the photon inter-action. I've attached a
pdf of the slides for the talk.

This will become part of the "interaction with the absorber" paper - if I
ever get round to it.

Cheers, John.

  _____  

From: General [general-bounces+john.williamson=
<mailto:glasgow.ac.uk at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>
glasgow.ac.uk at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org] on behalf of Andrew
Meulenberg [ <mailto:mules333 at gmail.com> mules333 at gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 1:57 PM
To: Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion
Subject: Re: [General] Quantisation of classical electromagnetism

Dear John W. 

Your paper looks very interesting. However, I am going to force myself to
put off reading it until I after I catch up on my other obligations.
Nevertheless, a quick question. Is a church bell quantized?

Andrew

_____________________________________________

 

On Tue, May 5, 2015 at 1:24 PM, John Williamson
<John.Williamson at glasgow.ac.uk <mailto:John.Williamson at glasgow.ac.uk> >
wrote:

Good morning everyone,

None of us gets the whole picture- yet. We, however, may each understand
some aspects of science, which need to be resolved within the group (and the
rest of the science community for that matter) as a whole. I think that, if
we want to make progress, as a group, to making a collective effort to
eventually solve Hilbert's sixth problem and understand how everything
works, we need a proper theoretical basis with which to calculate and with
which to model. Maxwell theory is good to a point, but is not quantized and
does not have a mechanism to confine light to go round and round in circles
in our models. We need a better theory.

By a theory here I do not mean some loose idea with some nice consequences
and able to calculate a number or two (like the WvdM model for example!). To
properly understand how things work it is not good enough to just flag-up
the problems of this or that model - all models have problems (the standard
model more than most!)- we need to put-up and develop a real theories and
then try to knock them down with experiment. If they fail- just make up a
new theory. That is the scientific method.

First problem in creating any new theory is where to start? On which basis?

Some of you may not have yet come across Hilbert's sixth. It is one of the
famous set of problems he posed at the turn of the century before last which
remains unsolved. Briefly it is finding an axiomatic, logical and complete
mathematical system that precisely parallels reality - just and no more.  In
other words finding a mathematics which precisely describes all of physics.

Coming back to the task in hand. Physics is now so vast that there are many
possible starting bases. All may give some insight into the truth, but none
yet solves Hilbert's sixth. I will not bother with theories set up, by
design, to be outwith the boundaries of that which is measureable
experimentally as I see no point in starting from somewhere where one is
already lost. Others may play that game if they wish.

Lets just list a few of the possible starting candidate frameworks (some
within the umbrella of the "standard model"):

1.     Shroedinger quantum mechanics

2.     Dirac relativistic quantum mechanics

3.     Quantum electrodynamics

4.     General relativity

5.     Special relativity

6.     Maxwell electromagnetism

These all stand on their own - of course. Any final theory should also be
manifestly consistent- at some level of simplification - with all of the
above. 

Now comes my personal view of each as a candidate starting frameworks on
which to make further progress. The conclusions at the end of each are not
definitive - just my personal opinion at present. Each sentence starting
"Conclusion" contains a pun, which is intended.

The first, while it has many practical applications, is too simple as it is
is non-relativistic. Conclusion-too uncertain. 

The second is a good possibility, however I think it is too complicated in
one respect and too simple in another. Too complicated in that it contains
BOTH a non-commutative (Dirac) algebra AND yet uses the far simpler complex
algebra in solutions. I think its starting point has already passed the
proper basis point and has implicitly added something which is just not
there in reality. I think it contains a great deal of truth but that the
added complexity (pun) makes for confusion. It confused Dirac himself (as
stated in his famous textbook by himself). If he was confused then what
chance have any of the rest of us got. This stand-point is backed up by the
fact that, despite being a corner-stone of the "Standard Model", it has not
yet been used in any practical engineering application at all (delighted if
anyone can pose a counter-example by the way). Conclusion-too complex. 

Now the third, quantum electrodynamics, looks good. It is not (yet) in
conflict with any known experiment within its realm of validity.  Indeed
this is the starting point for many. Personally, having worked with it back
in the eighties in develping (parts of) big monte-carlo programmes
(incorporating both QED and QCD) - I do not think this is the right answer.
The problem is that it has neither a detailed, microscopic dynamics of the
charges which are its sources, nor of the photon which is, for it the
exchange particle responsible for electromagnetism. For it, the photon is
that thing that carries the electromagnetic interaction more than a particle
in its own right. I do not see how to make it work starting from its
starting points. Lots of other folk (much smarter than me) have been trying
just that for many years without success. Good luck folk! Conclusion-I think
folk just do not get the point.

On to the fourth. This is also good, also consistent with all of experiment
(within its realm of validity). Could be made to work. Again, many have
tried. Wheeler made a good attempt with Geometro-dynamics. Any new theory
had better be consistent with it in the weak limit. I think it is still
missing its heart and foundation though. Conclusion- it is just too weak.

Now to the fifth. All good. Not much in it though - per se. Conclusion: not
special enough.

Now to the sixth. This is often neglected as being old-hat, but (as Chandra
has said) it is also consistent with all of experiment within its realm of
validity. It is, and always was fully (special) relativistic. This is at
least more special then than the preceding candidate. There is just more in
it. The main deficiency -up till now - is that it has been missing a proper
means of quantizing it and a proper wave-function for the photon.
Conclusion: the area seems a good field from which to start - just need to
properly investigate its boundaries and find a proper means to quantize it.

On this theme, I have attached a paper, containing a few speculations of my
own, to set myself up to be knocked down on anything which is too
speculative, ill-informed or downright wrong! It explains and expands on the
theory presented at FFP14 last year and outlined in the paper I circulated
earlier. The paper as it stands can be shortened as it contains some
repetition and a quite a lot of background analogy (such as pretty much all
of the discussion on page 7, for example). I've decided to leave this in for
the moment as it may help understanding. There are also other things that
should probably go in if I have the time - such as a wavefunction separating
the polarization and rotation-horizon parts of the wave function. Am still
working on that.

This was intended as a draft paper for the upcoming conference in San Diego,
even though it is more about the photon itself than the electron or its
inter-actions, so I was thinking of withdrawing it and replacing it with one
on the problems of causality in absorber interaction theory (to address the
problems raised by, amongst others, Chip). I'm re-considering this, as I
think it provides some of the background theory for the other paper on the
electron nature. An alternative may be to place it elsewhere within the
conference as it is more relevant to the photon itself than to the electron.
What do you think, Chandra and Andrew?



 

I think it is correct that it has limited value to try to understand one
thing (the electron) in terms of another thing which is, perhaps, even more
poorly understood (the photon). I agree as well that we need to address the
underlying root-cause of quantisation if we are really to understand what is
going on. Understanding the photon is what the paper aims to do

I'm a bit shy, in the present company, of jumping in with both feet here.
This is not really my field. I know more about (and have published widely
in) elementary particle physics and solid state physics (and I think this
helps in some respects) but am by no means an optics or a photonics guy. I
am relying on you all (especially people such as Chandra, Robert and Tim) to
put me straight on this. I do not want to step on everyones toes! The paper
attached contains a development of the Maxwell equations to include
dynamical mass, dual mass and angular momentum terms. The development here
looks pretty simple to me. Has it been done before? Please, all of you, fill
me in here. It would be very embarrassing to miss an important reference to
this.   

There is also an argument in the paper as to why classical electromagnetism
must be quantized in its travelling-wave solutions. I think this must be new
as I'm sure I should have heard of it otherwise. Am I wrong? There is also a
fully relativistic, quantized, Schroedinger-like, first-order
electromagnetic wave-function. Again- have such things ever been studied
elsewhere? 

The paper, as it stands, does not yet contain a calculation of  hbar from
first principles - though I am working on this as well as with a more
advanced 4D wave-function and in conjunction with the polarization
discussion and have what I think may be an answer - though that lies also
within the realms of physical chemistry where I am even less at home. If I
cannot sort it out before August it could, possibly, become a topic for
discussion.

I will circulate the draft paper to other people in other groups as well
(some on the mailing above). Another thing I would be grateful for is
suggestions as to which peer-reviewed journal would be an appropriate place
to submit this work for a more general circulation.

Regards, John W.


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