[General] Electron Torus

Mark, Martin van der martin.van.der.mark at philips.com
Sun May 24 07:06:47 PDT 2015


John D,
I fully agree with your reply to Chip, thanks for the details!
Please join us at the bar;-)
Cheers three!
Martin

Verstuurd vanaf mijn iPhone

Op 24 mei 2015 om 15:56 heeft John Duffield <johnduffield at btconnect.com<mailto:johnduffield at btconnect.com>> het volgende geschreven:

Chip:

I’m blue, you’re black:

As all of you know, after Relativity was introduced and adopted, the popular belief for a while, was that space was empty, and that a media of space was not required.  Now however it seems that most physicists have accepted that space is a media, with quantum attributes, and some level of energy density.

That popular belief was a cargo-cult false belief, because Einstein made it clear in his 1920  Leyden Address that space was the “aether” of general relativity. He made it clear that space was not some emptiness, but instead was a thing that is “conditioned” by a massive body such as a star.

If space is a media, what would we perceive which is different from space being empty?

That popular belief was a cargo-cult belief, because Einstein made it clear in his 1920  Leyden Address<http://einsteinpapers.press.princeton.edu/vol7-trans/192?highlightText=%22neither%20homogeneous%22> that space was the “aether” of general relativity, and space was not empty.

Some would say there is no perceptible difference. But is that precisely true?

No. Like Einstein said in 1929<http://www.rain.org/~karpeles/einsteindis.html>, a field is a state of space.

If space is a media, it implies a preferred reference frame in space.  This is an item which would be difficult, or perhaps impossible to detect, but for one item. If space is a media with a preferred reference frame, then clocks in that reference frame would be the fastest clocks possible in the universe.

There’s also the CMB reference frame<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_microwave_background#CMBR_dipole_anisotropy>. It’s preferred in that it tells you your speed through the universe. And whilst it isn’t an absolute frame in the strict sense, the universe is as absolute as it gets.

One thing which would alter the ability to test this is a gross frame dragging of space around massive bodies or concentrations of mass.

See the asymmetric Kerr metric as a source of CP violation<http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/newsandevents/pressreleases/galaxy_sized_twist/>. It’s to do with galactic frame-dragging.

If space is a media, and if frame dragging does occur

It’s a popscience myth that it isn’t a medium, electromagnetic waves do not propagate because an electric wave creates a magnetic wave and vice versa. I’m confident that frame dragging does occur, and that the electron electromagnetic field is a fierce example of it.

A definition of TIME is the underlying objective of this line of questions.  For I see two possibilities, one is that time is an inherent property of space and, as the current relativity teaches, a fourth dimension in our “spacetime”.  The other is that time is simply the rate at which particles can interact, caused by the fact that fields can only propagate at a finite velocity, and that we are made of particles which are circularly confined fields.
I feel the first explanation is less likely because it does not show cause, it does not tell us why time is part of space, just that it is.  The second explanation is the one I currently prefer because it is a simple consequence of the nature of space and particles, it shows cause.

I prefer it too, and so did Einstein. See Time Explained<http://www.physicsdiscussionforum.org/time-explained-t3.html> and A World Without Time: the forgotten legacy of Godel and Einstein<http://www.amazon.co.uk/World-without-Time-Forgotten-Einstein/dp/0465092942>.

Is time truly a fourth dimension at the lowest level of analysis of space?

No. We live in a world of space and motion. Our time dimension is derived from motion. It’s a dimension in the sense of measure, not in the sense of freedom of motion.

Regards
John D

From: General [mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org] On Behalf Of Chip Akins
Sent: 24 May 2015 14:24
To: 'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'
Subject: Re: [General] Electron Torus

Hi All

We are working on the foundations of physics.  Studying and trying to decipher the result of experiment in a causal manner.

As we do that it keeps bringing me back to the nature of space itself.  John M has made some good points about starting from the makeup of space and working our way up from there.  John D has communicated a solid and basic approach to many of the issues.  Many of us have proposed models, field formulations, and a host of other possible explanations for what we observe.

As we reflect on what we have done and what we still need to do, there are some things which may still need to be addressed and answered before we can make progress in certain areas.

For example, the nature of space and time, are fundamental to understanding physics.  Some of us feel we have a reasonable handle on this, and it is a very basic part of what we are doing, but I am thinking that we do not yet have it quite right. For the endeavor we have undertaken, I think close is not good enough.

First I want to state clearly that I do not yet propose to have the answers to the nature of space, all I have is conjecture so far.

As all of you know, after Relativity was introduced and adopted, the popular belief for a while, was that space was empty, and that a media of space was not required.  Now however it seems that most physicists have accepted that space is a media, with quantum attributes, and some level of energy density.
However many of the subtle suggestions engendered during that time when it was perceived that space was empty, and much of the “foundation” of relativity is still based on there being no media which constitutes space.

If space is a media, what would we perceive which is different from space being empty? Some would say there is no perceptible difference. But is that precisely true?

If space is a media, it implies a preferred reference frame in space.  This is an item which would be difficult, or perhaps impossible to detect, but for one item.
If space is a media with a preferred reference frame, then clocks in that reference frame would be the fastest clocks possible in the universe.  All clocks in all other inertial frames would be slower. One thing which would alter the ability to test this is a gross frame dragging of space around massive bodies or concentrations of mass.

It seems that relativity has been tested with regards to the slowing of clocks with relative velocity to a precision of about 1.6% to 10% depending on which experiments you prefer. But of course these tests are at low relative velocities and only represent a narrow prat of the spectrum of tests which would be required to absolutely validate the entire curve. And an error of 1.6% is still a substantial error for this type of validation.

If space is a media, and if frame dragging does occur, again it would be difficult to verify the existence of the media using clocks, depending on how much frame dragging there is. If space is a media, how can we calculate the frame dragging and quantify it?

A definition of TIME is the underlying objective of this line of questions.  For I see two possibilities, one is that time is an inherent property of space and, as the current relativity teaches, a fourth dimension in our “spacetime”.  The other is that time is simply the rate at which particles can interact, caused by the fact that fields can only propagate at a finite velocity, and that we are made of particles which are circularly confined fields.

I feel the first explanation is less likely because it does not show cause, it does not tell us why time is part of space, just that it is.  The second explanation is the one I currently prefer because it is a simple consequence of the nature of space and particles, it shows cause.

One thing I think we must remember as we construct a physical model is that we are dealing with the fundamentals and foundations, the building blocks so to speak, and in that endeavor we will probably find instances where a phenomenon like the definition of time, or the definition of charge, or the definition of spin, is not the same at the micro level as it is at our macro observable level. If we do our job well we will discover the causes and sources of many of these types of phenomena. At levels below the causal level for any of these phenomena, the macro rules no longer apply in full.

After saying that, a question would naturally arise, if time as we measure it is merely the result of the interaction of particles, how and when do we incorporate the dimension of time in our calculations? Is the development of time at such a low level that we should include it in all calculations, just as relativity teaches? Or does time come into play only at the particle level, and the finite velocity of light predominates at lower levels? Is time truly a fourth dimension at the lowest level of analysis of space? Or does it just appear to be that way from our perspectives due to the nature of our particulate construction and measurements?

Any and all opinion and argument is eagerly appreciated. If you could please let me know your take on this and the reasons you feel that way I will be grateful.

Chip

From: General [mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org] On Behalf Of John Williamson
Sent: Friday, May 22, 2015 8:02 AM
To: Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion
Subject: Re: [General] Electron Torus

Hello Chip,

Have been meaning to say for some time: you are producing some beautiful models.

Would be good to talk at some stage.

Regards. John (W)


________________________________
From: General [general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org<mailto:general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>] on behalf of Chip Akins [chipakins at gmail.com<mailto:chipakins at gmail.com>]
Sent: Friday, May 22, 2015 1:59 PM
To: 'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'
Subject: Re: [General] Electron Torus
Hi Richard

Sorry I was modeling what I though was the spin 1 photon model of the electron.
This is what I perceive to be your spin ½ photon model of the electron to be with velocity.  Same velocity steps as before.

Nested set of models,

<image001.png>

Slow trajectory lines, purple, faster trajectory lines tending toward green.

Here is the code for the electron’s reference frame for the above graphic:
X(ii)=Roc*(1/y^2+(1/y)*cosd(y*c*(t)/Roc))*cosd(y*c*(t)/Roc);
Y(ii)=Roc*(1/y^2+(1/y)*cosd(y*c*(t)/Roc))*sind(y*c*(t)/Roc);
Z(ii)=(Roc/y)*sind(y*c*(t)/Roc);

Note: there is still a very small electron model (with velocity 0.9988c) at the center of this graphic. In this model the contraction is in all directions, not just longitudinally.  I think this is correct, but it does not agree with some interpretations of relativity.  It is also difficult to see how this model, without spiral fields, would look the same to a moving observer when the electron is “at rest”.

And the model is of course not really spherical.
Does this match your results?
Can you share the graphics model you have done?

Chip

From: General [mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org] On Behalf Of Richard Gauthier
Sent: Friday, May 22, 2015 7:31 AM
To: Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion
Subject: Re: [General] Electron Torus

John D., Chip and Andrew,

   Isn’t it the case that in standard physics (experimentally confirmed) the measured spin of an electron is relative to the motion of the observer of the electron, just as the observed momentum of an electron is relative to the motion of the observer of the electron? If an observer moving west to east with a relativistic velocity v1  passes a “stationary” electron (in some reference frame) , the electron has an observed momentum (when it measured) going west, and a spin either up or down (when it is measured) in the east-west direction  and a de Broglie wavelength corresponding to the relative velocity v1, while when an observer moving relativistically south to north with velocity v2 passes a “stationary" electron , the electron has an observed momentum (when it is measured) going south, a spin that is up or down (when it is measured) in the north-south direction, and a de Broglie wavelength corresponding to its relative velocity v2. (In QM,  velocity, spin and de Broglie wavelength probably can’t all be measured at the same time).

The relativistic energy-momentum equation for the electron E^2 = p^2 c^2 + m^2 c^4 applies to the electron described above when observed by two observers with two different relativistic velocities compared to the electron. I showed in my article “the electron is a charged photon with the de Broglie wavelength” that the same relativistic energy-momentum equation applies to a helically moving double-looping photon that may compose an electron, where E is the energy of the photon (the same as the total energy of the electron composed by the photon), p is the longitudinal momentum of the helically moving photon (the same as the momentum p of the electron being modeled), E/c is the total momentum of the photon along its helical path, and mc is the transverse momentum of the helically moving photon, which contributes to the electron’s spin up or spin down value hbar/2 in the case of a slow moving electron (modeled by the double-looping photon). So every electron observed to have a momentum p will in this view also have a spin hbar/2 up or down in the direction of its momentum.

Also, when a photon is Doppler shifted-due to relative motion of the light source away from or towards the observer, the observed wavelength of the photon is lengthened or shortened accordingly. Doesn’t this imply that the length of the whole photon (if it consists of a certain number of wavelengths) is also lengthened or shortened accordingly?

Richard

On May 22, 2015, at 12:06 AM, John Duffield <johnduffield at btconnect.com<mailto:johnduffield at btconnect.com>> wrote:

David:

Why don’t photons get length contracted? Because they’re just waves in space moving at the speed of waves in space. A ripple in a rubber mat doesn’t get length contracted, nor do waves in space. Then when you make those waves go round and round, they still don’t get length-contracted. Then when you move past them fast, they still don’t get length contracted. You might say the path of those waves is different, but it isn’t, they didn’t change, you did. And if you boil yourself down to a single electron, and boil that down to a ring, then draw circles and helixes, I think it gets to the bottom of things.

Chip:

Yes, I’m certain relative velocity is a determining factor.  But note that “we” are made of electrons and things, so IMHO it’s best to start with two particles, such as the electron and the positron. If you set them down with no initial relative motion they move linearly together, and we talk of electric force.

<image005.jpg>
However if you threw the postiron over the top of the electron they’d move together and go around one another, whereupon we talk of magnetic force. Note that this is relative velocity, not relativistic velocity. I’ve seen people explain the magnetic field around the current-in-the-wire using length contraction<http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/65335/how-do-moving-charges-produce-magnetic-fields>, but IMHO that’s a fairy tale, and I prefer a “screw” answer<http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/184055/atomic-explanation-of-magnetic-field/184079?noredirect=1#comment388570_184079>.

Regards
John D

From: General [mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org] On Behalf Of Chip Akins
Sent: 21 May 2015 21:39
To: 'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'
Subject: Re: [General] Electron Torus

Hi John D

Regarding…
Sorry, I don’t think that can be right because you could go past an electron at .9988c.

Yes, I am coming to think that maybe the spiral fields caused by limited field propagation velocity, might play a larger role than I had first considered.
I think Martin was onto this aspect already.
Wondering if relative velocity is a factor in determining what portion of the spiral field we detect or interact with? And if so, how that might work.

<image006.png>

The earlier electron model graphics are created from the math that Richard developed for his spin ½ electron.

Chip




From: General [mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org] On Behalf Of John Duffield
Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2015 3:15 PM
To: 'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'
Subject: Re: [General] Electron Torus

Chip:

Sorry, I don’t think that can be right because you could go past an electron at .9988c.

Andrew:

Photons don’t get length contracted, and electrons are made out of photons in pair production. If you simplify the electron to a photon going round in a circle, then take one point on the circumference, you would say it describes a circular path. But when you move past the electron fast, you would say that point was describing a helical path. Then when you consider all points of the circumference, you might say the electron was a cylinder rather than a circle. And if you were that electron, everything to you would look length-contracted, because you’re smeared out. If I was a motionless  electron you’d say I was length contracted. But I might say I was the one moving, and that you’re length-contracted.

Regards
John

From: General [mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org] On Behalf Of Chip Akins
Sent: 21 May 2015 17:52
To: 'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'
Subject: Re: [General] Electron Torus

Hi Andrew

Images from the electron’s reference frame.

For Richard’s model using the spin 1 photon, and drawing in the electron’s reference frame, his math produces the following image for a set of nested electron models with velocities up to 0.9988c.
<image007.png>

The small grey sphere in the center is the electron model for 0.9988c.

So in this model the electron shrinks in all directions, but remains principally spherical when viewed from the electron’s reference frame.

Chip

From: General [mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Meulenberg
Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2015 11:15 AM
To: Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion; Andrew Meulenberg
Subject: Re: [General] Electron Torus

Dear Chip,
I learn something new every time. However, it may not be true.
If I interpret your images properly, the fastest electrons are the longest. However, relativistic shortening should shrink the length. I had expected the electron to 'pancake' in the direction of motion. You show the opposite. Is the pancake only in the electron's frame and the appearance from our frame is one of an extended structure? If both, do they cancel and, in reality, it is still spherical?
Andrew

On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 7:36 PM, Chip Akins <chipakins at gmail.com<mailto:chipakins at gmail.com>> wrote:
Hi Richard

So it is a bit more difficult to visualize exactly what is going on from the graphics with velocity.

We increase the velocity is in steps from zero through 0.9988c.

>From the Z axis the illustration looks like:
<image008.jpg>

Showing the reduced radius with velocity.

But when we look at the model slightly off axis (Z axis) we see this:

<image009.jpg>

So this is a set of nested electron models with different velocities, each starting from the same point (upper right of the illustration). These are drawn from an external observers frame and are not shown in the electron’s reference frame.

In the electron’s reference frame we would see closure to the trajectory, but in this reference frame, the trajectory (since it is moving) is not closed.

Chip

From: General [mailto:general-bounces+chipakins<mailto:general-bounces%2Bchipakins>=gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org<mailto:gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>] On Behalf Of Richard Gauthier
Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2015 6:29 AM

To: Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion
Subject: Re: [General] Electron Torus

Chip,
   Please correct a couple of typos in my last email. The TEQ (transluminal energy quantum) moves on the surface of a torus, not a helix. Also the first helical radius mentioned should have been Ro sqrt(2) = 1.414 Ro , not Ro sqrt(2)/2 = 1.414 Ro since sort(2)/2 = 0.707 not 1.414 .  Thanks.
    Richard

On May 20, 2015, at 6:42 PM, Richard Gauthier <richgauthier at gmail.com<mailto:richgauthier at gmail.com>> wrote:

Chip,
     Nice graphics!

    Shouldn’t the electric field lines of an electron at some distance from the electron model be pointing inward linearly towards the electron from infinity on all sides, since the electron's electric field (due to its electric charge) falls off as 1/r^2 . I don’t understand why the electric field lines appear closed in your diagrams.

    In my original resting electron model the TEQ was a circulating negative electric charge which circulated on the surface of a helix. I called the circulating TEQ a photon-like object since it was similar to my TEQ model of a photon.  I was assuming at that time that the photon in my resting electron model had spin 1, even though I had adjusted the helical radius so that the circulating TEQ generated the magnetic moment of the electron of 1 Bohr magneton, requiring a helical radius for the TEQ of Ro sqrt(2)/2 = 1.414 Ro which created the spindle torus in my model . So this was actually neither a spin 1 photon (whose radius for a resting electron would have been 2Ro, or a spin 1/2 photon, whose radius for a resting electron would be Ro, as in the 3D models that you and I generated from the moving electron equations I proposed. Since I currently prefer the model of an electron composed of a spin 1/2 circulating photon, this doesn’t generate the electron’s magnetic moment of 1 Bohr magneton. But it generates a magnetic moment more than 1/2 Bohr magneton which would be produced by a charge circulating at light speed in a simple double loop of radius Ro. I haven’t done the calculation for the magnetic moment generated by my spin 1/2 photon model of the electron, but I suspect that it would be 0.707 Bohr magneton (just a guess at this point). The calculation of this magnetic moment from the TEQ trajectory equations for a charged TEQ in the spin 1/2 photon model is relatively straightforward though.

    By the way, have you looked at the side view of the actual TEQ trajectory at various values of v/c of the electron in the spin 1/2 photon moving-electron model that I proposed (and that you programmed and graphed in 3D to show how the model size changes as 1/gamma at various values of v/c)? The side view of the TEQ trajectory for a moving electron contains some surprises, at least for me. I thought that at high values of v/c (say 0.99 or 0.999) the TEQ would just appear from the side view to rotate helically around its reducing and increasingly more linear helical trajectory  (whose trajectory reduces as 1/(gamma^2), with the TEQ’s helical radius reducing as 1/gamma. But that’s apparently not what happens. Could you check this with your 3D program?

     Richard


On May 19, 2015, at 8:45 AM, Chip Akins <chipakins at gmail.com<mailto:chipakins at gmail.com>> wrote:

Hi Richard

If your spin 1 photon model of the electron is similar to John W and Martin’s model in that the field lines always orient with the negative end outwards (providing for charge) the estimated field distribution is similar to this illustration. (Equatorial View)

<image001.jpg>

(Top View from Z axis)
<image002.jpg>

(45 degree elevation view)
<image004.jpg>

Red lines represent negative ends of field lines, Blue lines represent positive, black is the transport radius, faint green line is one circulation at the transport radius.
Photon field amplitude is shown as a cosine function of wavelength/2.

Chip


From: General [mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org] On Behalf Of Richard Gauthier
Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 10:06 AM
To: Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion
Subject: Re: [General] Electron Torus

Chip,
   Perfect! It would also be good to have the pair of tori seen an an angle from above their ‘equator’ to get a more 3-D quality.
      Richard

On May 5, 2015, at 6:07 AM, Chip Akins <chipakins at gmail.com<mailto:chipakins at gmail.com>> wrote:

Hi Richard

How do these look?

<image003.png>
<image001.jpg>



















Chip



From: General [mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org] On Behalf Of Richard Gauthier
Sent: Monday, May 04, 2015 1:18 PM
To: Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion
Subject: Re: [General] Electron Torus

Hi Chip,
  The radius of the circle in the horn torus (spin 1/2 photon model) should visually be (since it is actually) 1/2 of the radius of the circle in the spindle torus (spin 1 photon model) -- the spin 1/2 photon model is smaller than the spin 1 photon model. Thanks! And could you perhaps show the energy quantum trajectory in a different color that the torus background so the trajectory stands out better?
    Richard

On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 10:42 AM, Chip Akins <chipakins at gmail.com<mailto:chipakins at gmail.com>> wrote:
Hi Richard

<image004.png>


<image005.png>

Chip

From: General [mailto:general-bounces+chipakins<mailto:general-bounces%2Bchipakins>=gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org<mailto:gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>] On Behalf Of Richard Gauthier
Sent: Monday, May 04, 2015 12:19 PM
To: Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion
Subject: Re: [General] Electron Torus

Hi Chip,
   Thanks. And finally, the vertical ovals of the tori should be circles because the circulating quantum has the same radius in the vertical and horizontal directions.
        Richard

On May 4, 2015, at 9:32 AM, Chip Akins <chipakins at gmail.com<mailto:chipakins at gmail.com>> wrote:

Hi Richard

Thank you.

Here you go:
<image001.png>

<image002.png>

Chip

From: General [mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org] On Behalf Of Richard Gauthier
Sent: Monday, May 04, 2015 10:43 AM
To: Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion
Subject: Re: [General] Electron Torus

Hi Chip,
  Both tori should be symmetrical above and below the z-axis and center on z=0.
      Richard

On May 4, 2015, at 8:16 AM, Chip Akins <chipakins at gmail.com<mailto:chipakins at gmail.com>> wrote:

Hi Richard

<image001.jpg>

Viewed from the Z axis:
<image002.jpg>

And from the equatorial plane:
<image003.jpg>

Chip

From: General [mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org] On Behalf Of Richard Gauthier
Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2015 11:07 PM
To: Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion
Subject: Re: [General] position

Chip and all,
   Here are some equations that relate to the modeling of a circulating photon as an electron. The second and third set include my own model of the photon. The first set doesn’t require a particular model for the photon, except as mentioned below. The first model is the one that generates the de Broglie wavelength as explained in my article mentioned below.

1. Here is the set of parametric equations for the helical trajectory of double-looping photon that models a free electron, and  whose circular radius for a resting electron is Ro=hbar/2mc. The speed of the photon along this trajectory is always c. The longitudinal or z-component of the photon’s speed is the electron’s velocity v along the z-axis. The frequency of the photon around the helical axis is proportional to the circulating photon/electron's energy E=gamma mc^2. The distance of the photon’s helical trajectory from the z-axis for an electron whose speed is v, is proportional to 1/gamma^2. This equation is in my article “The electron is a charged photon with the de Broglie wavelength”. This equation does not include a particular model of the photon, but assumes that the photon follows the relations c=f lambda, E=hf and p=h/lambda. Both helicities of the helical trajectory are given.
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