[General] double photon cycle, subjective v objective realities

Thu Jul 7 06:40:38 PDT 2016

Hi Grahame and Richard

So what I am working to sort out is the correct view of the momentum
vectors within the electron.  Of course SR postulates that nothing within
the electron can be moving faster than c.

I am working to determine if that is precisely correct.

Here is a quote from Wikipedia regarding the spin of the photon “The
magnitude of the photon’s spin is  and the component measured along its
direction of motion… must be ±ħ.” This suggests that the wavefront in
the photon is internal to the photon moving at.

So if we visit again the equation for the momentum of a wave we can see
that perhaps p=E/c has been simplified so much that part of the information
is absent. We can see that the term should be p = (E/c^2)v, and perhaps
that v in the electron can be  as in the photon.

But this complicates the issue of fully understanding the spin of the
electron, and can cause us to begin to question exactly what it is we are
measuring when we measure the electron’s spin.

Chip

From: General [mailto:general-
bounces+chipakins=gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org] On Behalf
Of Dr Grahame Blackwell
Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2016 3:00 AM
To: Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion
<general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>
Subject: Re: [General] double photon cycle, subjective v objective realities

Thanks Richard,

That's precisely what I've been trying to say, without in any way resting
on any generally-accepted results that might be regarded as consequences of
SR (and so open to question).

If we agree that the transverse momentum component of the electron is a
direct consequence of the rotational component of its formative photon (as
I hope we do!) then that rotational component is acting at radius R of the
electron at that time from its centre.  Angular momentum is given by linear
tangential momentum multiplied by radius - so angular momentum of the
electron is mcR.  Since mc is constant, R must also be constant if angular
momentum is invariant (which I believe we agree it is).

Just one further point: Richard, you refer to m as the electron's invariant
mass.  If we regard mass as that quality of an object that resists
acceleration (and so is proportional to the instantaneous force required to
induce an instantaneous acceleration), then my research indicates that the
mass is not invariant - though it will appear so from measurements taken
within the electron's moving frame.  My analysis shows that objective mass
varies with speed and the relationship E = mc^2 is applicable only for an
objectively static object/particle.  The m referred to above, as I see it,
is the objective rest-mass of the electron (i.e. its mass when objectively
static), which corresponds to the energy required to maintain the formative
structure of the electron (as opposed to that required to maintain its
linear motion).  This is of course constant.

Best regards,

Grahame

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Richard Gauthier <mailto:richgauthier at gmail.com>  

To: Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion
<mailto:general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>  

Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2016 6:42 AM

Subject: Re: [General] double photon cycle, subjective v objective realities

Chip and Grahame,

   Lets be specific to the electron to avoid unnecessary vagueness. The
moving electron (composed of a circulating photon) has a constant
transverse internal momentum component mc and a longitudinal external
momentum component p=gamma mv. These two momenta add vectorially (by the
Pythagorean theorem) to give  P^2 = p^2 + (mc)^2  where P=E/c is the
momentum P=gamma mc of the helically circulating photon of energy E = gamma
mc^2 that is the total energy of the linearly moving electron, modeled by
the helically moving photon. This relationship is equivalent to the
relativistic energy-momentum equation for a moving electron: E^2 = (pc)^2 +
m^2 c^4 which, substituting E=Pc,  gives  (Pc)^2 = (pc)^2 + (mc^2) c^2 ..
Dividing by c^2 gives P^2 = p^2 + (mc)^2 as given above. So as the electron
speeds up, the transverse momentum component mc of the electron’s total
(internal plus external) momentum P remains constant even for a highly
relativistic electron. The electron’s constant transverse internal
momentum component mc corresponds to (and leads to a derivation of) the
electron’s invariant mass m.

    Richard

On Jul 6, 2016, at 10:18 AM, Dr Grahame Blackwell <grahame at starweave.com
<mailto:grahame at starweave.com> > wrote:

Yes Chip,

Certainly the momentum of the confined wave increases - but that increased
momentum should not ALL be reckoned as ANGULAR momentum of the electron.

We know that a component of the momentum of that photon is linear - it's
the linear momentum of the electron in motion.  There is another component
of that photon that's orthogonal to that, i.e. in the direction of the
cyclic motion of the photon.  As the linear velocity of the electron
increases, the linear component of the photon momentum increases - however
the orthogonal, cyclic, component of that photon momentum does NOT
increase, since the 'pitch angle' of the helical motion of that photon
increases with linear electron velocity, and so also with photon frequency,
so as to precisely cancel out the effect of that increased frequency in the
resolved-component cyclic direction.

The angular momentum of the electron, dictated by the angular momentum
contribution of the photon, does NOT depend on the FULL momentum of the
photon - it ONLY depends on that component of the photon that acts
cyclically, i.e. the component that's orthogonal to the linear motion of
the photon.  That component remains constant (as long as the radius of the
photon cycle remains constant).

For example, if an electron is travelling with linear speed 0.6c then its
formative photon is travelling in a helical path which, if we were to
flatten it out (as in relativistic energy-momentum relation) we'd find that
formative photon having a linear motion component of 0.6c and cyclic speed
component of 0.8c.  This means that the ANGULAR momentum imparted by the
photon will only be 0.8 of that which it would give if it were travelling
fully cyclically at speed c (as for a static particle).  Since the
frequency of the photon will be increased by a gamma factor of 1/0.8 for
such motion, the decreased (0.8) contribution of momentum for increased
(1/0.8) frequency will be exactly what it was for the static particle.

I hope that helps make things clearer.

Best regards,

Grahame

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