[General] light and particles group
Hodge John
jchodge at frontier.com
Tue Jan 24 10:31:12 PST 2017
Chandrafurther, How is charge maneefest?Does a photon have gravitational mass? If its path can be altered, it shold have gravitational properties.There are many photon (EM) energies in the EM spectrum. The seperation between one photon and another involves what? How is this unique for given emitter? If a photon is a wave there should be a superposition on the subatomic particle scale.Hodge
On Tuesday, January 24, 2017 1:18 PM, "Roychoudhuri, Chandra" <chandra.roychoudhuri at uconn.edu> wrote:
#yiv8914278592 #yiv8914278592 -- _filtered #yiv8914278592 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv8914278592 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv8914278592 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}#yiv8914278592 #yiv8914278592 p.yiv8914278592MsoNormal, #yiv8914278592 li.yiv8914278592MsoNormal, #yiv8914278592 div.yiv8914278592MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv8914278592 a:link, #yiv8914278592 span.yiv8914278592MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv8914278592 a:visited, #yiv8914278592 span.yiv8914278592MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv8914278592 p.yiv8914278592MsoAcetate, #yiv8914278592 li.yiv8914278592MsoAcetate, #yiv8914278592 div.yiv8914278592MsoAcetate {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:8.0pt;}#yiv8914278592 p.yiv8914278592MsoListParagraph, #yiv8914278592 li.yiv8914278592MsoListParagraph, #yiv8914278592 div.yiv8914278592MsoListParagraph {margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv8914278592 p.yiv8914278592msonormal0, #yiv8914278592 li.yiv8914278592msonormal0, #yiv8914278592 div.yiv8914278592msonormal0 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv8914278592 span.yiv8914278592BalloonTextChar {}#yiv8914278592 span.yiv8914278592EmailStyle21 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv8914278592 span.yiv8914278592EmailStyle22 {color:#20188C;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;text-decoration:none none;}#yiv8914278592 span.yiv8914278592EmailStyle23 {color:#993366;}#yiv8914278592 span.yiv8914278592EmailStyle24 {color:#20188C;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;text-decoration:none none;}#yiv8914278592 span.yiv8914278592EmailStyle25 {color:#003300;}#yiv8914278592 span.yiv8914278592EmailStyle26 {color:black;}#yiv8914278592 span.yiv8914278592EmailStyle27 {color:black;}#yiv8914278592 span.yiv8914278592EmailStyle28 {color:olive;}#yiv8914278592 span.yiv8914278592EmailStyle29 {color:black;}#yiv8914278592 span.yiv8914278592EmailStyle30 {color:windowtext;}#yiv8914278592 span.yiv8914278592EmailStyle31 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv8914278592 .yiv8914278592MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv8914278592 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv8914278592 div.yiv8914278592WordSection1 {}#yiv8914278592 _filtered #yiv8914278592 {} _filtered #yiv8914278592 {margin-left:.75in;} _filtered #yiv8914278592 {} _filtered #yiv8914278592 {} _filtered #yiv8914278592 {} _filtered #yiv8914278592 {} _filtered #yiv8914278592 {} _filtered #yiv8914278592 {} _filtered #yiv8914278592 {} _filtered #yiv8914278592 {}#yiv8914278592 ol {margin-bottom:0in;}#yiv8914278592 ul {margin-bottom:0in;}#yiv8914278592 Chip: My mental model for particles is more along the lines of your statement: “….the electron is a propagating confined energy structure which contains energy that can become a photon when released.” My additional comments. (i) It exists as a unique and space-localized self-loopedexcited state of the cosmic Complex Tension Field, CTF, (or, eventually whatever other expression becomes broadly acceptable). (ii) Why “self-looped” oscillation of the electromagnetic potential gradients of the CTF: The concept brings in localized resonant stability amounting to “energy quantization” in its existence. This is the origin of quantumness in our universe. The detailed models are under development by many of you. (iii) “…can become a photon when released”: Electron to photon conversion does not happen spontaneously. Electrons are stable particles like protons. An electron energy (the self-looped oscillation) can generate (can be converted to) a pair of Gamma-rays (freq.~10^20) in an opportune interaction with heavy nucleons, or electron-positron beam collision. These are all we know through experimental observations. In contrast, a beam of “wiggling” electrons, in a free-electron laser setup, can generate a wide range of much lower frequency EM waves, without losing their particle-integrity (or, structural existence). (iv) Our detailed experimental knowledge of EM waves (Radio to Gamma) does not allow us to use the word “photon” implying “indivisible quanta” for the entire spectrum. Besides, even in the LHC, highly energetic “Gamma rays” keeps on generating other “events” along its straight path while losing energy step by step. (v) Measurable (observable) “momentum” becomes manifest only through kinetic change in matter through EM Wave-matter and matter-matter interactions. So, I am not comfortable in assigning intrinsic momentum as a primary property to EM Waves. It is an outcome of wave energy transfer to matter in EMW-matter interactions. In the linear domain, no energy or momentum transfer can be observed amongst waves crossing through each other. Because, phenomenologically, waves do not interact. Non-Interaction of Waves (NIW) is a general property for all propagating waves in any tension filed, which provides the propensity to waves for perpetual propagation (perpetual pushing of the perturbed energy as it cannot absorb it). (vi) It is also necessary to start thinking whether the evolving electron-model can be extended to the stable proton? Based on its energy content, a proton will possess almost two orders of magnitude higher frequency oscillation. (vii) We must also start to think about accommodating other facts. For example, 92 electrons can be accommodated around a set of “electron shells” within a radius of one, or a few Angstroms, encircling (?) a nucleus, say of Uranium, which has a compressed packet of 92p+144n within a radius around a Femto meter!! Chandra. From: General [mailto:general-bounces+chandra.roychoudhuri=uconn.edu at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org]On Behalf Of Chip Akins
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2017 8:37 AM
To: 'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion' <general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>
Subject: Re: [General] light and particles group Hi Dr Grahame Blackwell and all While I am still working on details for accuracy, I wanted to share some of the aspects of an electron model for your comments and thoughts. My perspective has been that the radius of the electron contracts with velocity at the rate of 1/gamma. I do not feel it is correct to state that the electron is comprised of a confined photon, but rather that the electron is a propagating confined energy structure which contains energy that can become a photon when released. However I feel the propagating confined energy in the electron possesses the momentum component p=E/c. This means that the mean energy transport radius of the electron at rest is r = (c h)/(4pi E). Which yields a spin angular momentum of ½ hbar (L = r p). So that when accelerated the situation is as follows: E = E0 gamma, p = (E0 gamma)/c, r = r = (c h)/(4pi E0 gamma), L = r p. Where E0 is the rest energy of the electron. This situation always yields a spin angular momentum of ½ hbar at any velocity < c. The momentum of the mass of the electron is p = m v, and the internal mass of the electron is increased with velocity m = m0 gamma, so that the relativistic momentum of mass is p = m0 gamma v. If we could accelerate this electron to the velocity c, the momentum component L/r would exactly equal the forward momentum component p=mv. This seems to be the same situation we find in photons. Where the total momentum is sqrt(2) (E/c) and the (transverse) spin angular momentum component for a photon is assumed (by me) to be L = r (E/c). Please see PHOTON in Wikipedia… “The photon also carries a quantity called spin angular momentum that does not depend on its frequency. The magnitude of its spin is sqrt(2) hbar and the component measured along its direction of motion, its helicity, must be ±ħ.” So there is a hint here that the internal wavefront velocity of a photon is sqrt(2) c? While the forward velocity remains c. Chip From: General [mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org]On Behalf Of Roychoudhuri, Chandra
Sent: Monday, January 23, 2017 1:10 PM
To: Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion <general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>
Subject: Re: [General] light and particles group Chip: I like your thinking approach. Measurable “momentum” arises through energy exchange between scattering entities; specifically, when one of the entity possess the “inertial property”, we call particles. And, Newton correctly postulated that they tend to stay “inertial”, “until acted upon by a force” (an entity that can “donate” energy to create kinetic motion). Chandra. From: General [mailto:general-bounces+chandra.roychoudhuri=uconn.edu at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org]On Behalf Of Chip Akins
Sent: Monday, January 23, 2017 9:28 AM
To: 'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'
Subject: Re: [General] light and particles group Hi Dr. Grahame Blackwell What I was considering is trying to understand the mechanism for momentum in the propagation of energy in space. Whether that energy is in the form of light or confined in particles of matter. For if we can show exactly how it is that momentum is a fundamental feature of energy, as it moves in space, we then have specifically identified and understood the source for inertial mass. This may help us refine our models. I think that it will help us understand Planck’s quantization of action and its causes as well. This research has already helped me understand how light can have both spin and orbital angular momentum, and it may well lead to a better grasp of other basic principles. Other reasons for looking into this in detail, are to better understand the correct set of wave equations, and spin. To understand the causes for what we observe. I agree that a transfer of energy must implicitly also transfer momentum. Momentum is a measureable result of energy. But to me E=hf means that more energetic waves or particles are smaller. If that is correct then there is a cause. Probably the simplest explanation is that space has an inherent opposition to displacement, which creates this force Fc I have been discussing. That is nice, simply because this force is also perfectly suited to cause confinement, not only of waves in space, but also of elementary fermions. So if we can explore this possibility further, and create wave equations for waves which would be caused by the displacement and this opposing force, complete with momentum and all the other measurables, then we may have foundations upon which we can model everything. I do not think that wave interference is sufficient to cause confinement. I have studied waves in great detail and still find that more than self-interference is required for confinement of waves into soliton (circularly or spherically confined) solutions. So for me, it seems that this equal and opposite reaction of space to the displacement caused by energy is the only logical path to explore. It is my hope (and intuition) that this path will lead to understanding the mass formation thresholds for electrons so that we might know why the electron’s rest mass is the specific value we measure. Chip From: General [mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org]On Behalf Of Dr Grahame Blackwell
Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2017 5:40 PM
To: 'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion' <general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>
Subject: Re: [General] light and particles group Hi Chip, I got a working copy, thanks. I see that of course you're going into far more intricate details mathematically than I was looking at. In this case, it seems to me, the question becomes: "How is it that a photon travels through space?". As I've said, once that's tied down the fact that it carries momentum follows as a natural consequence. (To some extent it depends on how one defines momentum.) Thanks again, Grahame
----- Original Message ----- From:Chip Akins To:'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion' Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2017 10:54 PM Subject: Re: [General] light and particles group Once more. Chip
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