[General] STR
Albrecht Giese
phys at a-giese.de
Sun May 28 14:05:31 PDT 2017
Wolf,
following my attempts to answer.
Am 25.05.2017 um 19:12 schrieb Wolfgang Baer:
>
> Albrecht:
>
> I'll send this to you and the nature of light separately. then please
> check if it gets to you on both
>
> 1) regarding your Thesis it wold be necessary to see exactly where the
> Von Neuman cut takes place to evaluate the experiment from my observer
> inclusive perspective. The problem is that so many "truths" are simply
> consistent results inside quantum theory. There are always two
> operations separating reality from our observational experience and
> since science is operating under the assumption that quantum reality
> (i.e. anything that cannot be seen directly such as atomic structure,
> electorons etc.) is reality. It is very likely that the two operations
> are adjusted to to make the quantum reality assumptions self consistent.
>
Here it was about the question whether the photon is in deed a particle.
In the experiment we have converted electrons into photons as a spectrum
with a cut-off at its high end, and then reconverted these photons into
an electron-positron pair which can be easily measured. And the
measurement reproduced the spectrum with its specific cut-off at its
high end. Where do you see questions of quantum reality in this process?
>
> 2) The force between charge and mass is infinite in current theory
> because if force and charge are treated as separate degrees of freedom
> and are in fact pulled apart by external gravito-electric forces then
> in order to keep them at the same point the current theory would
> implicitly require an infinite force. relaxing this requirement then
> allows current theory to be an approximation to one that does not
> require such an infinite force. Much like classical physics is an
> approximation of quantum physics in the limit h->0. Quantum theory is
> an approximation to my Cognitive Action Theory when the force between
> mass and charge does NOT approach infinity.
>
Is current theory a specific theory?
We have particles without electric charge like a neutron or a neutrino.
We do not have particles without mass, however with little mass like the
electron and (again) the neutrino. Between a neutron and an electron
there is no infinite force, between an electron and a neutrino almost
zero force. So where do you see in practice an infinite force or at
least an approximation to an infinite force? I cannot see any connection
between the phenomenon mass and the phenomenon electric charge.
>
> 3) SRT I am completely puzzled by your statements the Twin Paradox
> gravitational explanation is in many text books. Here is wikipedia
>
> " Starting with Paul Langevin
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Langevin> in 1911, there have been
> various explanations of this paradox. These explanations "can be
> grouped into those that focus on the effect of different standards of
> simultaneity in different frames, and those that designate the
> acceleration [experienced by the travelling twin] as the main
> reason...".^[5]
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_paradox#cite_note-Debs_Redhead-5>
> Max von Laue <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_von_Laue> argued in
> 1913 that since the traveling twin must be in two separate inertial
> frames <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_frames>, one on the way
> out and another on the way back, this frame switch is the reason for
> the aging difference, not the acceleration /per se/.^[6]
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_paradox#cite_note-6> Explanations
> put forth by Albert Einstein
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein> and Max Born
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Born> invoked gravitational time
> dilation <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_time_dilation>
> to explain the aging as a direct effect of acceleration.^[7]
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_paradox#cite_note-Jammer-7>"
>
^There have been a lot of discussions in the beginning of SRT and there
were a lot of errors about it. Should we reopen the whole history of
errors and discussions here?
What you mention about Paul Langevin is quite exactly what our present
understanding is. And similarly the explanation of Max von Laue. On the
other hand acceleration cannot be an explanation for the twin situation
(which is indeed not a paradox). Assume the two twins and one twin moves
off at speed 0,87c . That means that if he travels off and comes back
after 20 years he will be aged - compared to his twin at home, only by
10 years. Now assume that he has travelled - in the view of his twin at
home - 10 years and then he accelerated to return to home, and assume
that he had a soft acceleration which took a week, and then assume that
during the acceleration the time in his frame stood still (which is
extreme and physically senseless) then there after his return his ageing
will have been 1 week less. But thhe reduction of ageing is in fact, in
this example, 10 years. So it is very clear that acceleration, even if
it would have an influence in SRT, would in no way be able to explain
the ageing of the travelling twin.
So we should really forget acceleration in this case. And even more we
should forget gravitation. (And btw. I did not find any statement of
Einstein in this sense).
>
> ^i'm simply saying the these explanations explicitly select an
> experiment setup that eliminates the clock slow down due to velocity
> with the clock speed up due to acceleration. The equivalence principle
> equates acceleration and gravity in Einsteins theory. My thought
> experiment simply has two twins in inter stellar space accelerating
> and decelerating in opposite directions coming back to rest at the
> meeting point at the origin. If everything is symmetric one
> explanation is that velocity ang gravity cancel and no effect exists
> at all. But by allowing an arbitrarily long coast time the relative
> velocity low down will always dominate and the twin paradox is
> present. Each twin calculates the other's clocks must slow down
> according to SRT and GRT, so when theories reach a logical
> inconsistency they must be improved.
>
So. let's look at this case where both twins travel to different
directions in a symmetric way. Twin 1 moves to the left and twin 2
moves to the right. Seen from an observer in the middle they move with
speed v_1 . After a well defined time they turn and move back to their
starting point. - This is symmetric and simple.
Now we take the view of twin 1. And we understand his initial frame as
the frame at rest. For him the other twin moves with respect to this
frame. Then twin 2 moves to the right with
speed v_2 which is the relativistic sum: v_2 = (v_1 plus v_1 ).
Now when the time has come to return, both change their motion so that
they move back towards their starting point as seen by the observer in
the middle at rest. That means for the twin 1 that he has now to move
with speed v_2 to the right, for twin 2 it means that he stays at speed
0, both related to the original frame of twin 1. ^
Now, what about the time progress of both twins? Twin 1 moves in the
first period with speed 0, in the second with speed v_2 .
Twin 2 moves in the first period with speed v_2 and in the second period
with speed 0.
If summed up, both will have at the end experienced the same delay of
time. And when they meet, they will have aged less compared to a state
without motion, but they will have aged in exactly the same way.
So now: where is a paradox? There is none. It is at the end the same
symmetry as if viewed from the observer in the middle.
>
> ^What I believe is happening is that the general relativity expression
> for Gamma *SQRT(m) = SQRT(m*c*c - m*v*v + m*2*Xg) Now since m*c*c =
> m*G*Mu/ Ru = the gravitational potential energy of a mass inside the
> mass shell of the universe Mu of radius Ru. We are living inside the a
> black hole of radius Ru according to the Schwarzschield solution. Then
> the term in the brackets becomes;
>
> m*c*c - m*v*v + m*2*X => .2 [ (1/2 *m*c*c + m*Xg) - 1/2*m*v*v ] => 2
> * L ; where L is the Lagrangian - (T-V
>
Why gravity here? There is no reason for it.
>
> In other words the entire SRT and GRT theory calculates half the
> change of energy transfer from electric to gravitational energy. But
> it observes the change in electromagentic energy as a slow down in
> clock rate. As I have often said on this issue the equations are
> correct it is the world view that is wrong. The error started with
> Newton when he equated F=m*a. This confused a Theoretical force with
> an Observational experience. It happened because the observer was
> taken out of physics and Observational experiences (i.e. the world in
> front of your nose) were taken to be reality instead of the mental
> experiences they are. Quantum theory is the beginning of correcting
> this error but it will take a while to find the right interpretation.
> We must add the mind back into physics.
>
I don't understand: Is this still about the twins? The so called twin
paradox has nothing to do with energy or with fields and even less with
quantum mechanics. Or do you mean something different here? Then please
explain. I else do not understand what your arguments are about.
>
> best wishes
>
> Wolf
>
Best wishes back
Albrecht
>
>
> Dr. Wolfgang Baer
> Research Director
> Nascent Systems Inc.
> tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
> E-mailwolf at NascentInc.com
> On 5/24/2017 12:01 PM, Albrecht Giese wrote:
>>
>> Hi Wolf,
>>
>>
>> Am 22.05.2017 um 06:11 schrieb Wolfgang Baer:
>>>
>>> I completely agree with Chandra EM waves are quantized during
>>> interaction with matter and then we project the quantized material
>>> state changes back into the waves as a mathematical convenience
>>>
>> We have discussed this topic earlier here and I have referred to my
>> PhD experiment. In that experiment we have used electrons of a well
>> defined energy to convert them into photons. The photons were after a
>> flight of several meters in the air detected by pair building in a
>> thin layer of copper. The energy of the pair was measured, and the
>> measurement showed the energy of the original electron. So, how can
>> we understand this result if it is not the photon which carries
>> exactly this energy and which is quantized with this energy?
>>>
>>> to answer some of Albrecht's comments on my 5,15,17 comment; I'm
>>> introducing some new ideas in order to include the mind in physical
>>> theory. Treated individually one can reject them because anything
>>> new can be rejected when one assumes the old is correct. So have
>>> patience.
>>>
>>> 1) "That means a force between charge and mass?" yes it means what
>>> it says. Mass and charge are assumed to be properties of particles.
>>> Particles have been assumed to be points and so mass and charge are
>>> located at points. I believe this is wrong. Mass and charge should
>>> be given separate degrees of freedom and the force between them is
>>> not infinite.
>>>
>> The force is indeed not infinite, on the contrary, there cannot be a
>> force at all. If we look at the forces of charges, it is obvious (in
>> the mind of physicists) that a charge can only interact with a charge
>> of the same type. So the electrical charge and the charge of the
>> strong force will by common understanding not react in any way. And
>> if now mass is understood as some type of a charge (which is,
>> however, not the understanding of present physics) then there should
>> not be any force between e.g. an electric charge and a mass.
>>
>> If we look deeper into what mass is by present understanding, then
>> charges may influence the dynamical process which we call "inertia".
>> But that is in that case a complicated logical connection.
>>>
>>> 2)"The question here is again: what is more fundamental, action or
>>> force?" The rest of your comments are simply addressing an
>>> incomplete presentation of my theory. However I consider dynamics or
>>> simply change to be fundamental. Reality is action in a form. Action
>>> is the material of change. Form is the state in which it is
>>> manifest. Action is fundamental , Energy is the rate of action
>>> happening, force is the experience of all finite particles in a non
>>> homogeneous action flow who all want to experience more action. I
>>> think it is best to defer this discussion to either metaphysics or
>>> when I have complete presentation ready.
>>>
>> Yes, then we should better wait. - But up to now I still follow this
>> argument that action is something which the human brain needs to
>> structure the world so that it fits into our brains. Particles which
>> react to each other do not have this need. They react to a force, and
>> the force and also the reaction to it can be infinitesimal. An action
>> is (by my understanding) something which happens or does not happen.
>> I do not see infinitesimal single steps which each can be understood
>> as an action. So, this is my argument that action is a typical case
>> of "human understanding".
>>>
>>> SRT:
>>>
>>> "First: this whole process has absolutely nothing to do with
>>> gravity. Why do you connect it to gravity?" Because I have seen the
>>> twin paradox explained by including gravity in text books. clocks
>>> slow down because of velocity but speed up because of acceleration
>>> the two cancel when two twins are accelerated with constant
>>> acceleration for the first quarter of the trip, the ship turned
>>> around decelerated for the second quarter and continued to be
>>> accelerated toward the start point, during the third quarter and
>>> then rocket reverses for the third quarter and come to rest rest at
>>> the origin where the second twin has been waiting at rest. Now both
>>> twins will agree on the amount of time passing. The paradox is said
>>> to be resolved because Einstein's Srt is expanded to GRT and gravity
>>> is introduced.
>>>
>> Can you please give me a reference to a text book which connects the
>> twin paradox to gravity? I never heard about such an idea; and the
>> discussion about ageing refers to the time dilation in SRT. You can
>> perform this twin paradox in an environment where no gravitational
>> sources are around, and it would work as usually described.
>>
>> According to SRT clocks slow down because of velocity. The degree of
>> slow-down is related to the speed of the clocks and to nothing else.
>> Acceleration or deceleration have no influence to the behaviour of
>> clock. This statement you will find uniformly in all textbooks.
>>
>> Then you write: "... and then rocket reverses for the third quarter
>> and come to rest rest at the origin where the second twin has been
>> waiting at rest." Now I am confused. I have understood that both
>> twins move and change their motion at exactly the same times. How can
>> it then happen that on twin is at rest and expects the other one?
>>>
>>> "And second: the whole process as you describe it is completely
>>> symmetrical. Both twins make the same experience with time and with
>>> there according ageing. Where the hell do you see a paradox?" The
>>> paradox is that both twins see the other moving at a constant
>>> velocity for an arbitrarily long period of time
>>>
>> why for an arbitrarily long period of time? It is only for the time
>> until the other twin changes his speed.
>>>
>>> and each one would according to SRT calculate the other twin has
>>> aged relative to himself. both cannot be right. by making the
>>> acceleration period small and symmetric the coast period large i
>>> eliminate the gravity explanation but retain an arbitrarily long
>>> constant velocity. SO SRT HAS A PARADOX AND IT CANNOT BE RESOLVED IN
>>> GRT.
>>>
>> Perhaps I understand now where you see the paradox. Assume the
>> following case which is sometimes discussed. There are two observers,
>> A and B, and both have clocks with them. We assume that both
>> observers move with respect to each other. Then observer A will find
>> that the clock of observer B runs more slowly. But as both observers
>> are physically equivalent also observer B will find that the clock of
>> observer A runs more slowly.
>>
>> This sounds like a paradox or even like a logical conflict. But it is
>> not. To see why not we have to have a closer look on how clock speeds
>> (or the time in different frames) are compared. It is not as simple
>> as it looks like.
>>
>> If the observer A will compare his clock run with the one of observer
>> B, he will e.g. place two of his clocks, which we will call clock 1
>> and clock 2 (and which he has of course synchronized) along the path
>> of observer B. Then he will compare the clock of observer B with his
>> clock 1 and then with clock 2 in the moment when the observer B
>> passes these clocks. The result will be that the clock of observer B
>> have run more slowly.
>>
>> But how now the other way around? The observer B can of course
>> compare his clock with both clocks of observer A when he passes these
>> clocks. But now a difference: Both clocks of observer A have been
>> synchronized in the frame of A. But in the frame of B they will not
>> be synchronized (a fundamental fact in SRT). From the view of
>> observer B the clock 1 of observer A will be retarded with respect to
>> the clock 2. So, the observer B can reproduce the observation of
>> observer A in the way that observer A sees the clock of B slowed
>> down. But observer B will use a different method to determine the
>> speed of the clocks of observer A. Observe B will also position two
>> clocks along the path which observer A follows in frame B and he will
>> synchronize these clocks in /*his*/ frame B. And with his clocks he
>> will find that the clocks of A run slower compared to his own ones.
>>
>> This different clock synchronization follows from the time-related
>> part of the Lorentz transformation:
>>
>> t = gamma*(t'-vx/c^2 ) with gamma = sqrt(1/(1 - v^2 /c^2 )).
>> Regarding the example above v is the speed between the frames of A
>> and of B.
>>
>> Is this understandable? (I have presented it in Porto Novo when I
>> talked about the problem of de Broglie with SRT.) If not clear,
>> please ask further questions I and shall go into more details.
>>>
>>> *do my Emails show up*
>>>
>>> *I CC'd you and you should get this directly and in
>>> general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org*
>>>
>>> Let me know if you get them
>>>
>> I have received your mail once. But last time also Chandra and Adrew
>> have answered. So the general distribution seems to work
>>
>> Albrecht
>>>
>>> Wolf
>>>
>>>
>>> Dr. Wolfgang Baer
>>> Research Director
>>> Nascent Systems Inc.
>>> tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
>>> E-mailwolf at NascentInc.com
>>> On 5/20/2017 12:19 PM, Roychoudhuri, Chandra wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Andrew W.:
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I basically agree with you that STR is not a theory of
>>>> physics. It is smart mathematics only.
>>>>
>>>> Whereas, photoelectric equation is physics, even though,
>>>> quantization is postulated wrongly on EM waves, rather than on
>>>> quantum mechanically bound electrons!
>>>>
>>>> Chandra.
>>>>
>>>> ==================================
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: General
>>>> [mailto:general-bounces+chandra.roychoudhuri=uconn.edu at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org]
>>>> On Behalf Of ANDREW WORSLEY
>>>> Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2017 2:24 AM
>>>> To: Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion
>>>> <general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>; Wolfgang Baer
>>>> <wolf at nascentinc.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [General] HA: Gravity
>>>>
>>>> Hi all
>>>>
>>>> STR is a complex subject - all observers are equal - but then
>>>> implies reciprocity, that's the bit that's flawed actually
>>>>
>>>> ========================================
>>>>
>>>> Message Received: May 18 2017, 08:34 PM
>>>>
>>>> From: "Albrecht Giese"
>>>>
>>>> To: "Wolfgang Baer" , "Nature of Light and Particles - General
>>>> Discussion"
>>>>
>>>> Cc:
>>>>
>>>> Subject: Re: [General] HA: Gravity
>>>>
>>>> Hi Wolf,
>>>>
>>>> again comments in the text.
>>>>
>>>> Am 15.05.2017 um 02:01 schrieb Wolfgang Baer:
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> > No Kc is the spring constant of the force holding charge and mass
>>>>
>>>> > together
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> That means a force between charge and mass? To my understanding
>>>> mass and charge are completely different categories as a wrote last
>>>> time. Charge is a permanent property of some object, whereas mass
>>>> is a dynamical process which also changes when the object changes
>>>> its motion state (which at the end is : relativity).
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> > In order to build a framework of a physical theory that properly
>>>>
>>>> > includes the observer as a measurement model building and acting
>>>>
>>>> > component I use a very simplified concept built on the classic
>>>>
>>>> > metaphysical ideas that mass,charge, space, time along with the
>>>> forces
>>>>
>>>> > between them are fundamental. Here are some of the differences
>>>> between
>>>>
>>>> > my cognitive action theory CAT and classic physics
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> Just a question at this point: to which set of "metaphysical ideas"
>>>> do you refer? If we refer to main stream physics, at least mass is
>>>> a different category. And also time and space are most probably
>>>> different categories from the others, at least for some of the
>>>> physical community.
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> > * Summary of Action Theory additions to Classic Physical Concepts*
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> > The examples provided in this section are intended to show how
>>>> action
>>>>
>>>> > theory is applied to well known and observable situations that
>>>> can be
>>>>
>>>> > compared with analysis using classical physics concepts. What CAT
>>>> has
>>>>
>>>> > added is summarized as follows:
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> > -Change involving transitions between states is where physics is
>>>>
>>>> > happening.
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> > -Change, visualized as stable action patterns, propagates through
>>>>
>>>> > material media.
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> > -The degrees of freedom of classical systems has been doubled by
>>>>
>>>> > separating mass and charge.
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> > -Internal material forces between mass and charge are introduced as
>>>>
>>>> > heuristic visualizations to augment understanding of the interior of
>>>>
>>>> > matter which is conventionally the domain of quantum theory (see
>>>>
>>>> > chapter 6)
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> > -Mach’s principle and the connection between the inertial field is
>>>>
>>>> > introduced in place of the observational pseudo forces such as the
>>>>
>>>> > centrifugal force and “m∙a” in Newton’s formulation. (See
>>>> Appendix on
>>>>
>>>> > Mach’s Principle)
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> > -Time is defined as the name of the state of the system adopted as a
>>>>
>>>> > clock, and time intervals are measured as action required to
>>>> change a
>>>>
>>>> > state separated by a constant state distance.
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> > Action theory is being developed as the physical underpinnings of an
>>>>
>>>> > event oriented world view and a description of reality which
>>>> includes
>>>>
>>>> > both the subjective and objective aspect of reality described by CAT.
>>>>
>>>> The question here is again: what is more fundamental, action or force?
>>>>
>>>> In the reductionist's world the fundamental processes are very
>>>> simple but go on in a huge number. So, it is a tendency, or a good
>>>> strategy of our brains to build categories. For instance, there are
>>>> billions of trees on our earth. No brain of a human being is able
>>>> to register and to remember all these trees. So, our brain build
>>>> the category "tree".
>>>>
>>>> That is helpful. But the cells in the trees have no logical
>>>> connection to the category-building, they follow fundamental rules.
>>>>
>>>> In an analogue way, there is a force between charges (else not!).
>>>> If objects move which have charges the forces will cause that the
>>>> motion of the objects is influenced, the path changes accordingly.
>>>> That is fundamental. A human brain can now build the category of an
>>>> "action" to describe, or better: to categories this process. This
>>>> brain-related process is in my view a less fundamental view to the
>>>> world, even though a helpful one.
>>>>
>>>> But again: mass and charge are not the same category. It is true
>>>> that there would be no inertia if there would not be charges in the
>>>> world.
>>>>
>>>> But taken in this was, mass is a consequence of charges (and a
>>>> dynamical consequence). So one could say: a consequence on a higher
>>>> level.
>>>>
>>>> And for "time" I agree that this is a structural way of humans to
>>>> categorize motion. "Space" may be a structural way to treat the
>>>> effect of charges.
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> > *Twin Paradox:*
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> > You mentioned the twin paradox is explained by the Lorenz
>>>>
>>>> > transformation since t'=t/sqrt(1-v*v/c*c) which describes time
>>>> dilation
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> > How do you avoid the paradox in the following experiment
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> > Two twins are accelerated with a small short pulse in opposite
>>>> directions.
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> > At some very long time they are both reversed with a double pulse
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> > when they meet they are stopped by a short pulse.
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> > The experiment is completely symmetric. both twins experience the
>>>> same
>>>>
>>>> > acceleration pulse so gravity clock effects are equal and can be
>>>>
>>>> > eliminated from a comparison but not eliminated is the arbitrarily
>>>>
>>>> > long period where they are traveling with a velocity relative to
>>>> each
>>>>
>>>> > other. Since the time dilation formula only contains
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> > velocity squared the direction of relative travel does not make a
>>>>
>>>> > difference. If the theory is correct there is a paradox and gravity
>>>>
>>>> > cannot explain it.
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> First: this whole process has absolutely nothing to do with
>>>> gravity. Why
>>>>
>>>> do you connect it to gravity?
>>>>
>>>> And second: the whole process as you describe it is completely
>>>>
>>>> symmetrical. Both twins make the same experience with time and with
>>>>
>>>> there according ageing. Where the hell do you see a paradox? I cannot
>>>>
>>>> see a paradox and the whole thing is as simple as it can be.
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> > *do my Emails show up in the general discussion I keep only getting
>>>>
>>>> > replies from people who send them directly and my E-mails do not
>>>> show
>>>>
>>>> > up in the discussion forum, so I'm wondering?*
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> To test it, you may sent this mail again without my address in the
>>>> list;
>>>>
>>>> then I can tell you (if informed) if I got it.
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> > Best,
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> > wolf
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> Best
>>>>
>>>> Albrecht
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>
>> Virenfrei. www.avast.com
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>>
>>
>> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
>
>
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