[General] Compton and de Broglie wavelength

Sat Nov 18 13:54:35 PST 2017

Dear Albrecht,

I must say that I don't see as "errors" conclusions that were drawn before more precise knowledge was discovered. For example, I don't think that Newton made an "error" by not immediately concluding to the possibility the fixed velocity of light. He simply did not know about it because this had not yet been discovered.

The same for de Broglie in my opinion, he worked with the knowledge available a the time.

As i understand it, what we call the de Broglie wave is simply a representation of the sum of the energies of the rest mass of the electron plus the translational energy related to its momentum. How can this be wrong at the general level, unless I misunderstand the whole concept?

  As for Hönl and the mass of the electron, I was meaning this rhetorically. I simply mean that any solution that exactly provides the exact mass of the electron as experimentally measured by numerous means can only be a proper description, so your description has to be correct. The exact mass of the electron has been experimentally confirmed for over 1 century. I do not know where to look to examine your solution. Can you provide a link?

---
André Michaud
GSJournal admin
http://www.gsjournal.net/
http://www.srpinc.org/

On Sat, 18 Nov 2017 21:56:34 +0100, Albrecht Giese  wrote:

Dear André,

there is no doubt that de Broglie has made great contributions to the development of physics. So, if there is an anniversary in honour of him and even the Nobel price, then as many as possible of his achievements are of course presented.

My concern, however, refers to a specific result of his early activities. The assumed necessity to introduce the "harmony of waves" and to deduce the "de Broglie" wavelength are based on a logical error and on a misunderstanding of SR.

It is a quite funny situation that in spite of this error his result seems usable to explain certain physical processes. It is one goal of my physical activities to understand this. In one fundamental case I have found an explanation. That is the scattering of electrons at a double / multiple slit. If such experiment is viewed from a specific inertial frame (the one normally used), de Brolgie's calculation conforms to the measurement. However in any other frame it fails. - I can explain why the de Broglie wave seems to work even though it is erroneous. (Not here but I can give you a reference if you want it.)

Regarding Hönl I do not understand what you say. Hönl did NOT get a correct mass by assuming only the electrical force in the electron. He was wrong by a factor of about 300 as I wrote earlier. But the calculation which I did is correct with high precision and the formula does not have any free parameters, only the standard ones. I do not know any other model which has this. Do you? Then please give me a reference.

Best regards
Albrecht

Am 13.11.2017 um 00:55 schrieb André Michaud:

Dear Albrecht,

Regarding the discovery of the discrete resonance states of electrons in atoms, here is a direct quote from a contribution by Einstein to a book co-authored by himself, Schrödinger, Pauli, Rosenfeld, Born, Joliot-Curie Irene. & Frederick, Heisenberg, Yukawa and a few others, that was published in 1953 as a tribute to Louis de Broglie for his 60th birthday, each of them providing one chapter, Einstein even collaborating to 2 distinct chapters besides contributing the introduction, the complete text drafting a detailed overview of the state of knowledge in fundamental physics in 1952: 

Einstein A., Schrödinger E., Pauli W., Rosenfeld L., Born M., Joliot-Curie I. & F., Heisenberg W., Yukawa H., et al. (1953). Louis de Broglie, physicien et penseur. Éditions Albin Michel, Paris.

He contributed the Introduction in German, which he felt more comfortable using (translated to French by the editors on the facing pages). Here is how he began this intro on page 4 of this book:

"Ich will dem zusammen mit Frau B. Kaufman verfassten Beitrag zu diesem Bande einige Worte vorausschicken in der einzige Sprache, in der ich mich mit einiger Leichtigkeit ausdrücken kann. Es sind Worte der Entschuldigung. Sie sollen zeigen, warum ich, trotzdem ich De Broglie visionäre Entdeckung des inneren Zusammenhanges zwischen discreten Quantenzuständen und Resonanzzuständen in relativ jungen Jahren bewundernd miterlebt habe, doch unablässig nach einem Wege gesucht habe, das Quantenrätsel auf anderem Wege zu lösen oder doch wenigstens eine Lösung vorbereiten zu helfen.".

My translation to English: 

"I wish to say, at the beginning of this contribution prepared in collaboration with Mrs. B. Kaufman, a few words in my own language, the only one in which I can express myself with any ease. They are words of apology. They are meant to explain why, despite the fact that I have witnessed with admiration in my years of relative youth, the brilliant discovery by Louis de Broglie of the intimate relation between the discrete quantum states and resonance states, I nevertheless ceaselessly attempted to resolve the quanta enigma in another way, or at least to help in preparing such an alternate solution."

I am confident that all of these other renowned contributors, who were all alive and practicing when de Broglie made this discovery would have objected to such a statement if it hadn`t been factual. 

I certainly could trace another source that I recall having read where it is clearly mentioned that this discovery by de Broglie was what initially inspired Schrödinger.

Actually, the best source of de Broglie's thoughts is his huge legacy of numerous papers, and more that 25 quite substantial books, most if not all of which have never been translated to English.

As for Hönl's solution, inasmuch as his mass calculation for the electron matches the experimentally confirmed value, I see no problem with it, just like I see no problem with all other alternate theoretical solutions matching the experimentally obtained value. I think that all ideas deserve to be considered.
Best Regards
---
André Michaud
GSJournal admin
http://www.gsjournal.net/
http://www.srpinc.org/
On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 22:56:32 +0100, Albrecht Giese  wrote:

Dear André,
the resonant state of electrons in atoms was according to my knowledge an argument of Schrödinger, maybe also used by Bohr. If we want to understand the thoughts and the basic concept (and also possible logical errors) of de Broglie, then the best source will be his PhD thesis. De Broglie and others (like the Nobel committee) have later attempted to see more consequences of the detection of de Broglie, but the originals are in the thesis. So, I recommend again to read it.

Regarding a solution for the mass (not for the charge) of the electron, there is this (modified) approach of Hönl referring to the strong force. And as the result of this model is so precise - as a wrote: almost 10-6 - then I do not see this as only a direction but as a true result. And not to overlook that this calculation does not use any free parameters. It is correct by using known physical constants.

Best regards
Albrecht

Am 11.11.2017 um 21:35 schrieb André Michaud:

Dear Albrecht,

>From the Nobel internet site and other sources, looks like he won the Nobel in 1929 for his intuition in 1924 that electrons in atoms were stabilized in resonance states, which inspired Schrödinger the wave function approach that gave birth to Wave Mechanics, then complemented by Heisenberg`s statistical energy spread solution that then resulted in fully workable Quantum Mechanics.

Regarding the actual mass and charge of the electron, from my perspective, any solution not in conflict with the experimentally measured mass and charge of the electron can only be in the right direction.

Best Regards

---
André Michaud
GSJournal admin
http://www.gsjournal.net/
http://www.srpinc.org/

On Sat, 11 Nov 2017 20:42:24 +0100, Albrecht Giese  wrote:

Dear André,

I am quite sure that de Broglie invested a lot of more thoughts into physical problems. Like your example of consequences of Maxwell's theory.

But if we look into de Broglie's thesis, then it is obvious that

1.) This was the beginning of de Broglie's work on this topic (not denying his later activities)

2.) He concluded the necessity of the de Broglie wave, as a new phenomenon, in just this paper. And BTW for this idea published in this paper he received the Nobel price. So it was the essential cornerstone. And his deduction was based on a conflict which he saw regarding Special Relativity and energy-to-frequency. (A conflict which in fact does not exist.)

Hönl: The mass of the electron was of course already measured at that time and the result known to Hönl. But Hönl was a theorist and his intention was to derive the mass of the electron from theory. He used a model of the electron which was not so different from my model (but different). But he assumed what is common sense in physics up to these days that the electron contains only electrical energy. This did not give him a usable result. But a precise result is achieved if the strong force is assumed for the particle. And this latter assumption is meanwhile no longer in conflict with main stream physics.

Best regards
Albrecht

Am 10.11.2017 um 21:53 schrieb André Michaud:

Dear Albrecht,

I have just a few comments (green color in-line).

Best Regards
---

André Michaud
GSJournal admin
http://www.gsjournal.net/
http://www.srpinc.org/

On Fri, 10 Nov 2017 20:52:01 +0100, Albrecht Giese  wrote:

Hi Colleagues!

I did not follow all details of the preceding discussion. But I feel motivated to comment to two points which came up here again and again.

One point is the de Broglie wave. For this I recommend everyone to look into the thesis of de Broglie. It is in original in French, but there is a nice translation done by Al Kracklauer *). And I find it easily visible that de Broglie's idea of his wave is based on an error.

*) http://aflb.ensmp.fr/LDB-oeuvres/De_Broglie_Kracklauer.pdf

De Broglie has meant to have detected the following conflict: Physics assumes that there is a permanent oscillation in a particle (like an electron) which depends on its (full) energy according to the equation: E = h*f , where f is the internal frequency. Question was: what happens if the particle is set to motion? Clearly its energy increases by the kinetic energy. So the frequency f has to increase. On the other hand SR assumes dilation which means that the internal frequency has to decrease. This was seen as a logical conflict which kept de Broglie (in his own words) busy for some lengthy time. Then in his view he found a solution which was the introduction of a new wave, just the de Broglie wave.

The problem with de Broglie is that he misunderstood the situation. He was right in that the internal oscillation slows down by dilation (if seen e.g. from the side). However if the particle interacts with another particle being in a different motion state (for instance at rest) then this other particle sees a higher frequency caused by the Doppler effect. And the Doppler effect is about the inverse square of dilation, so the apparent frequency is increased according to the energy equation. And there is no problem.

I am somewhat familiar with de Broglie's work. This is not the reason why he did not succeed. He perfectly understood Maxwell's wave theory, and he was trying to describe permanently localized photon in a way that would remain fully Maxwell's equations compliant.

He was trying to do this by means of adapting the wave function to the purpose, but since Quantum Mechanics could not be completely reconciled with electromagnetism as Feynman himself remarked in his "Feynman`s Lectures...", he did not succeed. 

"There are difficulties associated with the ideas of Maxwell's theory which are not solved by and not directly associated with quantum mechanics...when electromagnetism is joined to quantum mechanics, the difficulties remain" Richard Feynman. 1964.

Note that physics does not "assume" that there is a permanent oscillation in elementary charged particles. It has been experimentally established that the electron is of electromagnetic origin since the Blackett and Occhialini discovery in the 1930's that pairs of massive electron/positrons can be produced from the conversion of sufficiently energetic massless electromagnetic photons. So this is not a simple "oscillation" that is involved, but an "electromagnetic oscillation", that can only be the self-sustaining mutual induction of electric and magnetic aspects of electromagnetic energy that was hypothesized by Maxwell and was later experimentally confirmed by Hertz and others. 

De Broglie did not misunderstand the situation at all. He simply came to the same conclusion that Feynman expressed later in his "Feynman`s lectures on Physics". I don't recall that it was in relation with SR.

It is not even necessary to refer to the Doppler effect in this case. If the Lorentz transformation is properly used then it indicates an increase of the frequency rather a decrease. So it encloses already the implication of the Doppler effect: The according Lorentz transformation says about the speed of proper time: dt' = gamma*(dt-vx/c2). So, if in the simple case the interacted particle is at rest and so v=0, then because gamma>1 t' will run faster than t . No de Broglie wave is needed.

The other point: there are some considerations here about the energy / mass of the electron where the energy is always related to the electric (or "electromagnetic") properties of the electron. This cannot work. Helmut Hönl has in the 1940s attempted to deduce the mass of the electron from its electrical energy. The result was too small by a factor of about 300. (And this is BTW the relation between the strong and the electrical force.) As a consequence of the work of Hönl it was concluded that it is impossible to determine the mass of the electron classically. Conclusion was that the mass can only be treated by quantum mechanics. - However if it is utilized that the strong force is stronger by the given factor and the strong force is used for the determination of mass then the result is correct. I have done this calculation as some of you know using the strong force and the result conforms to the measurement with a precision of almost 10-6. (My talk in San Diego.)

To your second point, to my knowledge, the exact mass of the electron had been measured and was known with precision already at the beginning of the 20th century, ref the Kaufmann experiments, for example, and many others. So seems to me that the failure of Hönl to establish it 40 years later by a method he conceived simply shows that his method was not appropriate, not that the mass of the electron was suddenly impossible to measure by other methods.

The objection to this determination is normally that the electron is not subject to the strong force because it was never observed to react with a particle which has the strong force as the dominant one. But this is falsified in so far that at the electron ring DESY in Hamburg an interaction between electrons and quarks on the basis of the strong force was observed around the year 2004. There was then an ad hoc explanation introduced for this observation by the assumption of a new exchange particle mediating between electrical and strong forces which was called "leptoquark". It was then attempted to verify the leptoquark at the Tevatron. But without any result. So this looks like a clear indication that the electron is also subject to the strong force, however with a very small coupling constant.

So, what do you think about this?

Best regards
Albrecht

Am 10.11.2017 um 15:07 schrieb André Michaud:

Hello John,

Ok thanks. Taking this in also. 

I will develop an opinion as I read your articles and correlate your grounding premises with my own angle. 

Best Regards

---
André Michaud
GSJournal admin
http://www.gsjournal.net/
http://www.srpinc.org/

On Fri, 10 Nov 2017 04:37:50 +0000, John Williamson  wrote:

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Actually André I take it back,

If you look at the post I sent to Chip I've argued that one needs to consider five superimposed spaces: space, flow in space, electric field, magnetic field and spin, but I am forgetting myself and warnings from Carver Mead not to double-count. While this is true, these spaces are, indeed coupled by linear differential equations: this means that the odd may be taken to depend on the even and vice-versa, meaning that only three can be dynamically independent. They are all anyway coupled and interdependent though the extended theory of 4D space-time, if it is indeed the solution to Hilbert's sixth that is.

Regards, John.

From: General [general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org] on behalf of John Williamson [John.Williamson at glasgow.ac.uk]
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2017 4:26 AM
To: srp2 at srpinc.org; general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
Cc: Mark, Martin van der
Subject: Re: [General] Compton and de Broglie wavelength

Hello André,

This is getting more and more interesting! Not promising to look at them straight away as I've lots to do today but will save them as a treat for later.

I agree that the magnetic field encompasses some aspects of spin in that is a kind of "turning thing", but I think one eventually needs both!

Regards, John.

From: André Michaud [srp2 at srpinc.org]
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2017 11:10 PM
To: John Williamson; general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
Cc: srp2 at srpinc.org
Subject: RE: [General] Compton and de Broglie wavelength

Hello John,

Just one last comment with regard to what we put on the table.

I just quickly scanned your 3 papers and listened to your talk.

We may effectively have a direct match space-wise, because in the trispatial geometry, your magnetic space and your spin space are one and the same.

You'll see why when you read about how spin can be related to the expansion-regression process of the magnetic component during the EM reciprocal swing.

Best Regards
---
André Michaud
GSJournal admin
http://www.gsjournal.net/
http://www.srpinc.org/

On Thu, 09 Nov 2017 13:49:23 -0500, André Michaud wrote:

On Thu, 9 Nov 2017 17:33:42 +0000, John Williamson wrote:

Right-ho André, I will go green ...
Ok, I'll go violet (colors getting drowded)

From: André Michaud [srp2 at srpinc.org]
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2017 4:29 PM
To: John Williamson; general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
Cc: srp2 at srpinc.org
Subject: RE: [General] Compton and de Broglie wavelength

Hi John

I'll go red inline for my answers.

On Thu, 9 Nov 2017 10:26:38 +0000, John Williamson wrote:

P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}

Hello Andre and Grahame,

Sorry Andre, have not looked at the trispatial stuff, have been far too busy with the day job for the last few weeks. Sounds interesting though. Could you please point me to the references again (apologies if you have already given them). I will go blue below.

No sweat. I also work a day job so I also indulge when time allows. I'll give the links in context below for consistency. 

Tough stuff, but all fun huh?

Indeed!

From: General [general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org] on behalf of André Michaud [srp2 at srpinc.org]
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2017 9:24 PM
To: grahame at starweave.com; general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
Subject: Re: [General] Compton and de Broglie wavelength

Hi Grahame,

The 3D perspective doesn't rule out at all the de Broglie wavelength. Quite the contrary. To my knowledge, the de Broglie wavelength is the only way to account for the energy of the electron in motion in the 4D space geometry. The reason is that the self-staining mutual induction of the electric and magnetic fields of the energy making up the invariant rest mass of the electron cannot be described in a 4D spacetime geometry. At least, it never was.

Yes this can be done now. One needs to build in a (root) rest mass to the basis of the field (Maxwell) equations. There is an example of this in my my two 2015 SPIE papers, though there is a flaw in the underlying handedness of one of the fields in that theory, the basic method is still valid.

It can be described however in the trispatial geometry, and so can that of its carrying energy separately, that is the energy that causes the electron to move and also accounts for its velocity related transverse relativistic mass increment.

This sounds very interesting. There is a sense in which my new theory is quadri-spatial. I wonder if there is some common ground here? I really need to look at your stuff. 

Quite possibly, I have not had a look at your material, but obviously we are exploring the same issues.

Indeed, from what you say below these may be EXACTLY the same issues.

What I wrote was that the de Broglie wavelength that combines both is not valid in the trispatial geometry, and is replaced by a resonance effect between the energy of the invariant rest mass of the electron and that of its separately definable carrying energy. 

Sounds as though you need a wave defining these two.

Exactly right! And I have no idea of how to go about this, because while the wavelength of the rest mass of the electron remains fixed at the Compton wavelength value, that of its carrying energy varies with velocity while the electron is accelerating, which causes the combined resonance volume to vary with increasing velocity, so the resonance volume fluctuates as a function of time. In the trispatial geometry I tentatively associate Zitterbewegung to this resonance effect.  

I think you are very close. In my model the Compton frequency is fundamental, but double-covering, which givesthe zitterbewegung frequency. If you do the relativstic transformations correctly, the de Broglie wavelength falls out of this beautifully, as Martin first derived in 1991 (or maybe 92 - do you remember Martin?). Martn is also working a=on an updated and definitive paper on this at the moment.

You are right tough, there is an orthogonal factor involved between the electric charges of the carrying energy and that of the electron. But unfortunately, I don't know how to explain this from the 4D perspective. I don't think it can be.

In my theory the mass and fields go in as an initially neutral fluid. Charge is derived as a result of new topological solutions allowed by the extended Maxwell equations. The theory is 4D from the beginning. Both the de Broglie wavelength and the proper transformations of energy-momentum, both for the case of photons and material particles may be (are!) derived.

Wow! In the trispatial geometry, what you call a "neutral fluid", I identify as fundamental "kinetic energy" as induced in charges by the Coulomb force, coupled with the fields concept being seen as only sorts of "maps" describing the real territory (the behavior of the energy), so there really seems to be common grounds between both our angles on these issues. I put this in perspective in the long but I think required setting-in-perspective at the beginning of the de Broglie double-particle photon paper:

As I have said to others - there are good features in the double particle picture, but this is seriously challenged by experiment. In particular with two particles you immediately need forces to conbfine them. these forces and particles would show up in the scattering cross sections and they do not. This was a good idea of de Broglies, but I fear it is ultimately a dead end as it falls foul of a large body of experimental evidence.

In the double-particle picture of the trispatial geometry, there is a self-sustaining reciprocating swing between double component electric state and single component magnetic state, with the recall property being due to the Coulomb Force acting from the trispatial junction. This is how the self-maintaining swing is explained in the spatial geometry, combined with a property of the "substance" kinetic-energy to constantly remain in motion.

I don't think the twin "particles" would show up so much with respect to the frontal cross-section, because in the trispatial model, the max transverse amplitude of the electric swing is only (alpha lambda)/(2 pi), and they cannot really be "particles" in the sense of separate quanta such as electrons for example. In this geometry, they are part of a single incompressible quantum that elastically oscillates.

https://www.omicsonline.org/open-access/on-de-broglies-doubleparticle-photon-hypothesis-2090-0902-1000153.pdf

For the related electron and the up and down quarks inner structures I also add the links to the two paper that describe the related mechanics of their establishment in the trispatial geometry if you want to have a look:

The Mechanics of Electron-Positron Pair Creation in the 3-Spaces Model:

http://ijerd.com/paper/vol6-issue10/F06103649.pdf

The Mechanics of Neutron and Proton Creation in the 3-Spaces Model:

http://www.ijerd.com/paper/vol7-issue9/E0709029053.pdf

The charges in the trispatial model are a "recall effect" towards the trispatial junction, and their intensity is related to the distance at which opposite "charges" happen to momentarily be on either side of the junction. Stabilized for the electron and positron, but varying for the photon. Not explainable in 4D geometry, but summarized in the first column of page 6 of this other paper in the 3-spaces geometry with summary description of the 3-spaces geometry:

This sounds to me as though it has some similarities to my concept, not of the electron, but of the quarks as composed of underlying electromagnetic like interactions.

https://www.omicsonline.org/open-access/the-last-challenge-of-modern-physics-2090-0902-1000217.pdf

It would indeed be interesting if all of this could be described from the more easily dealt with 4D geometry as you seem to have been exploring. 

I know that ideas like "trispatial geometry" and "3-spaces" sound overly exotic, but they really are not. Simply an expansion of the concept of the magnetic field vs electric field vectorial cross product giving the related triply orthogonal electromagnetic relation between electric aspect, magnetic aspect, and direction of motion of any point of Maxwell's spherically expanding electromagnetic wavefront in plane wave treatment, being applied to the point source of the wave, which allows the emitted quantum to remain localized as it starts moving at c from the point of emission, which would explain EM photons' permanent localization.

I agree completely, and two of my "3D space are indeed the three of electric and the three of magnetic (properly the six of electromagnetic, relativistically of course). My other two are the three of mass-current and the three of spin. I also agree about the localisation.

We seem to really wading in the same waters then.

In short, the de Broglie wavelength in 4D spacetime geometry is a valid, but more general representation of the combined resonance effect of both the electron energy and its carrying energy in the 3-spaces geometry.

As Grahame mentioned, Martin van der Mark derived this independently from our rotating photon model in 1991, see the comment below.

Would you have a link to this paper by Martin?

This is Martin and my 1997 paper on the localised photon and is available here:

www.cybsoc.org/electron.pdf

There is also a talk of mine on there somewhere, with my model for the quarks.

The SPIE papers are available under my name on the Glasgow university website.

eprints.gla.ac.uk/110966/ and 
eprints.gla.ac.uk/110952/1/110952.pdf

Ok, Il have a look at your material and Martin's.

Maybe we should wait until we both have had time to look at the others stuff before trying to correlate ideas more closely.
We are nearing exhaustion of the usable color range.

Best Regards

André

This definitely looks like a quite exciting conversation.

Agreed!

Best Regards
---
André Michaud
GSJournal admin
http://www.gsjournal.net/
http://www.srpinc.org/

On Tue, 7 Nov 2017 19:49:07 -0000, "Dr Grahame Blackwell" wrote:

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Hi André,

I don'tunderstand why a 3-D perspective rules out de Broglie wavelength - it certainly doesn't in my 3-dimensionally based scenario. The de Broglie wavelength is the wavelength attributable to the energy-flow component of the electron's formative photon responsible for particle motion (as identified by Davisson & Germer), whilst the Compton wavelength is the wavelength of the formative photon in a static electron - which gives the cyclic component of the formative photon travelling helically as a moving electron. In that moving electron those two components combine as sides of a right-angled triangle (Pythag again!) to give the full gamma-factored frequency of energy-flow in that moving particle, corresponding to the 'relativistically' increased energy content of the moving particle. [It's true, of course, that de Broglie wavelength never appears as the peak-to-peak length of a wave in its own right, only as the 'wavelength' of a component of the full photon wave that forms a moving electron.]

Only the cyclic component will be apparent to an observer (or instrument) travelling with that electron - the linear component is not apparent due to a form of Doppler effect. This is well shown in John Williamson & Martin van der Mark's paper 'Is the Electron a Toroidal Photon?', in which they refer to these components as "time-like" and "space-like". I don't agree with their proposal that this explains de Broglie's 'Harmony of the Phases' - in my view a time dilation factor seems to have gone missing - but the identification of these components as collinear-with (de Broglie)and orthogonal-to (Compton) the direction of particle motion is very well reasoned and presented.

No this is not so - Martin derived the harmony of phases from this independently in around 1991. It was pointed out to us in 1994 by Ulrich Enz ( on circulating in Philips a second attempt to publish that paper) that the Harmony of phases had first been described by de Broglie in his thesis.

This perspective on particle energy-flow can be used to explain fully the phenomenon referred to as 'inertial mass' without reference to any extraneous bosons or fields, it also provides a direct derivation of E = mc^2 without any reference to SR.

Best regards,

Grahame

----- Original Message -----

From:  André Michaud

To:  richgauthier at gmail.com ;  general at lists..natureoflightandparticles.org

Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2017 3:45 PM

Subject: Re: [General] The Entangled Double-Helix Superluminal Photon Model

Hi Richard,

Thanks for the link. I had a quick look, and this brings me to clarify why I wrote that there can be no de Broglie wavelength from the trispatial geometry perspective because I observe that I did not clarify this point.

It is due to the fact that in the trispatial geometry, the carrying energy of a moving electron is a full fledged electromagnetic "carrier-photon", which possesses its own wavelength, which is separate from the Compton wavelength of the electron. 

In the trispatial geometry, there can be no common de Broglie wavelength, but only a state of resonance between both wavelengths, whose form and extent of volumes as a function of time depends uniquely on the possibly varying energy of the carrier photon as the electron progresses in space since the wavelength of the energy making up the invariant rest mass of the electron is invariant.

This means that to describe electrons in motion from the trispatial perspective, the structure of the wave function needs to be adapted to account for this. This is something beyond my abilities to do, but that you or others would be better equipped math wise to do eventually. 

Best Regards
---

André Michaud
GSJournal admin
http://www.gsjournal.net/
http://www.srpinc.org/

On Tue, 7 Nov 2017 06:25:31 -0800, Richard Gauthier wrote:

HelloAndréand all,

Thanks you for your detailed comments comparing our approaches, which I will come back to. One link to my Schroedinger equation article is  https://www.academia.edu/10235164/The_Charged-Photon_Model_of_the_Electron_Fits_the_Schrödinger_Equation. A link to a related article is athttps://www.academia.edu/9973842/The_Charged-Photon_Model_of_the_Electron_the_de_Broglie_Wavelength_and_a_New_Interpretation_of_Quantum_Mechanics. Both articles can also be downloaded fromhttps://richardgauthier.academia.edu/research.

An article making an analogy between photons in a cavity and electrons in an atom is athttps://www.academia.edu/19894441/Photonic_Atoms_Predicted_by_the_Charged_Photon_Model_of_the_Electron.

with warm regards,

Richard

On Nov 6, 2017, at 9:22 PM, André Michaud <srp2 at srpinc.org> wrote:

Hi Richard,

I will try to explain how I correlate my understanding of the wave-particle duality with what I perceive your understanding is. But it is very difficult to do, because, I understand this in the frame of the expanded trispatial geometry, while you describe it from the perspective of the 4D space geometry.

Also, from my understanding, there exists only localized elementary charged particles in physical reality, and even after they stabilize in various electromagnetic equilibrium states (nucleons, atoms, molecules, larger bodies), that continue interacting individually. Because of this, to me, there is no discontinuity between the submicroscopic level, the macroscopic level and even with the astronomical level. 

>From my perspective, when I look at a baseball in my hand and think of how it interacts, I see only the bunch of electrons, up quarks and down quarks plus their carrying energy that make up its mass that interact with the bunch of electrons, up quarks and down quarks plus their carrying energy that make up the mass of my own body and the Earth.

When you write: "The question is, what gives the photon its individual particle-like nature and also its statistical wave-like nature. Since the answer is that "nobody knows", "

I would qualify the last part as " Since the answer is that "nobody knows from the 4D space geometry perspective", ", which is exactly what de Broglie ended up concluding.

This is what got me to thinking and end up exploding the three ijk orthogonal vectors describing the electromagnetic triply orthogonal relation of any point of the Maxwell continuous EM wavefront into 3 full fledged orthogonal spaces, to see if this could help, and I found that it does.

But from this perspective, particle-like behavior of localized elementary particles such as the photon amount only to its longitudinal inertia coupled to a frontal cross-section related to the extent of the transverse oscillation of its electromagnetically oscillating half, and its wave-like behavior can only be the full extent of this transverse electromagnetic oscillation.

This transverse oscillation amounts to a form of resonance of the energy of the photon, and the volume of space visited by this resonance is the only thing that can be described by the wave function in the trispatial geometry,
metaphorically speaking, like the wave function can describe the volume visited by a resonating (vibrating) guitar string, but here the "guitar string" is the energy half quantum that electromagnetically oscillates.

What you name its " statistical wave-like nature" to me is the distribution of its energy density within the volume that it resonates in over a given time period.

When you write: " that the helically-moving charged photon (now I would call it a half-photon) composing an electron produces a quantum wave"

This is a description that belong to 4D space. In the 3-spaces geometry, this is not possible because the electromagnetic oscillation is a reciprocating swing between both states. The helical motion of the twin charges you describe however in your 4D model is theoretically possible in the trispatial geometry, because both charges are free to swivel freely on the Y-y/Y-z plane within electrostatic space while the photon moves at c in X-space, which is why I think your model is fine even from my 3-space perspective. The only difference is that in the trispatial geometry, the charges symmetrically piston in and out in opposite directions from zero presence to full extent at the frequency of the reciprocating swing.

But there is no such thing as a "quantum wave" being produced or emitted in the trispatial geometry.

The only possibility for the wave function to apply (to the trispaces photon model) is to describe the resonance volume of space occupied by the oscillating EM energy while reciprocatingly swinging between electric state and magnetic state. Nothing is emitted while the photon travels.

Our approaches indeed are not very different as you mention, but you would have to really get into the trispatial geometry to see how close they are. The major difference rests with the integration of the magnetic aspect, a feature that I see no possibility to coherently integrate in the too restricted frame of 4D space geometry.

Yes I have an electron model based on the trispatial photon model. In fact, there is even a clear and seamless mechanics of decoupling of a single 1.022 MeV or more photon into a pair of electron and positron, but it can make mechanical sense only in the trispatial geometry.

Here is a link to the paper describing the decoupling mechanics, and also the inner structure of the electron (and positron of course), titled "The Mechanics of Electron-Positron Pair Creation in the 3-Spaces Model":

http://ijerd.com/paper/vol6-issue10/F06103649.pdf

There is no such thing in the trispaces geometry as a de Broglie wavelength as you conceive, so I cannot comment or relate anything to it.

When you write: " A photon can be "bound" in a wave cavity in many possible "resonant states" depending on its wavelength just like an electron can be "bound" in an atom in many possible orbitals or "resonant states" depending on the electron's energy in the atom."

When I think of a photon interacting, I see it interacting with one or many other elementary particles. To me a photon interacting with a wave cavity such as you consider, is only one photon interacting with a bunch of other individual photons or other charged EM particles such as electrons, positrons, up quarks and down quarks, so I do not know how to correlate this with what you say. In the trispatial geometry, free moving photons cannot stabilize into least action resonance states within atoms, but they can communicate their energy to electrons so captive, which causes them to jump farther away from nuclei or even completely escape.

When you say: "Maybe the electron gives off one or more photons while adjusting to a relatively stable resonant energy state in the atom."

When an electron stabilizes in a least action resonance state in an atom, only "one" electromagnetic photon can be emitted, carrying away the momentum related kinetic energy that the electron accumulated while accelerating until stopped in its motion as it was being captured. For example, a 13.6 eV photon is emitted when an electron is captured by a proton to form a hydrogen atom.

But overall, I think we really are looking at the same thing from different angles, and seeing practically the same thing, but with different color glasses, so to speak.

I'd have a look at your paper "The Charged-Photon Model of the Electron Fits the Schrödinger Equation" (article 21)." Can you give me a link?

Best Regards
---

André Michaud
GSJournal admin
http://www.gsjournal.net/
http://www.srpinc.org/

On Mon, 6 Nov 2017 15:08:43 -0800, Richard Gauthier wrote:

Hi André,

Thank you for your very helpful comments and questions. The reason that in 2002 I switched from a two-particle superluminal quantum model of a photon to a one-particle superluminal quantum model was that I thought that the lack of experimental evidence for two particles in a single photon's makeup would decisively defeat this model. Now with a second look it seems that my own rejection at that time of essentially the same model was premature. But I did learn more about electron and photon modeling between then and now.

Referring to point 6 on the question of wave-particle duality, as you know, the photon acts like a point particle when it is detected individually by a charge-coupled-device (CCD) or other methods. But the statistical distribution of photons when many photons are detected over an area follows a predictable wave-like pattern predicted from the wavelength of the photon (which can actually be measured consistently from such experiments). The question is, what gives the photon its individual particle-like nature and also its statistical wave-like nature. Since the answer is that "nobody knows", I proposed in my electron model article "Electrons are spin-1/2 charged photons generating the de Broglie wavelength" at https://richardgauthier.academia.edu/research#papers (article #16) that the helically-moving charged photon (now I would call it a half-photon) composing an electron produces a quantum wave, and showed mathematically that this quantum wave predicts the electron's de Broglie wavelength along the longitudinal direction the electron (composed of the helically-moving charged photon) is moving. That gave me confidence that a photon model (composed of 2 spin-1/2 charged photons) would emit similar quantum waves that would have the photon model's helical wavelength and frequency of rotation, but would also have a wave form and frequency and would act like a quantum wave function to provide the necessary statistical predictions about detecting photons.

You explain wave-particle duality differently in your photon model, as due to transverse electromagnetic oscillations within your photon model. Perhaps these two approaches are not so different. Do you have an electron model based on your tri-space photon model, and if so does your electron model generate the de Broglie wavelength?

Also, you said you associate the quantum wave of a photon with a resonance volume associated with the photon rather than a "wave-being-emitted" from the photon. Again, our approaches may not be so different. A photon can be "bound" in a wave cavity in many possible "resonant states" depending on its wavelength just like an electron can be "bound" in an atom in many possible orbitals or "resonant states" depending on the electron's energy in the atom. I see the superluminal energy quantum composing an electron as something that seeks out through its quantum waves the possible resonant states in an atom (or positive ion) it meets, based on the electron's energy and wavelength, and then establishes itself in an energy state (with its corresponding wave function) in the atom which is consistent with the electron's energy (and its de Broglie wavelength). Maybe the electron gives off one or more photons while adjusting to a relatively stable resonant energy state in the atom. Something similar could happen when a photon enters a cavity where it can settle into a resonance state if it has the necessary wavelength. This I think is a new way of looking at quantum mechanics and is quite tentative. My work connecting the "spin-1/2 charged photon" electron model with the Schroedinger equation is at "The Charged-Photon Model of the Electron Fits the Schrödinger Equation" (article 21).

Richard

On Nov 3, 2017, at 7:37 AM, André Michaud <srp2 at srpinc.org> wrote:

Hi Richard,

I have been reading your last paper:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/320727586_Entangled_Double-Helix_Superluminal_Composite_Photon_Model_Defined_by_Fine_Structure_Constant

Quite interesting and clearly described. Easy to visualize.

The first point I note is your use of a pair of charges in action within the photon structure, which is something I agree must be the case. Since light can be polarized by magnetic fields, it makes complete sense that charges, which are known to react to magnetic fields, must be involved in a localized photon and that two of them need be present and interacting, since how could a single point-like behaving charge ever be polarized?

Referring to basic geometry, a point can have no particular orientation in space while two point (charges) physically located some distance apart, however close they may be, and between which a distance (a line) can be measured, can transversally be oriented in any direction on a plane perpendicular to the direction of motion, which light polarisation seems to involve.

I also agree with your correlating them with the concept of two half spin half-photons, which gives the complete photon a spin of 1, which is in line with de Broglie's hypothesis.

Since you make them move in a double helical trajectory, they are de facto in mutual transverse alignment with respect to the direction of motion, which makes your photon polarizable in conformity with observation, and is in agreement with the known fact that electromagnetic energy involves transverse oscillation, contrary to sound in a medium which involves longitudinal oscillation of the medium. 

You mention that Caroppo (8) has developed a hypothesis along the same lines without reference to de Broglie, but I couldn't locate it to have a look because no doubt by mishap your (8) refers to the Einstein-Pololsky-Rosen paper that fed initiated the debate with Bohr (if I recall correctly) and in which I couldn't locate Caroppo's name.

Since you make them spiral along the trajectory, their slightly internal superluminal spiraling velocities are consistent with the fact the photon proper would move at c.

You assign fixed values to both charges, which is consistent with the fact that they remain at fixed distances from the axis of motion. This is different from my model, in which their value varies between a maximum and zero at each cycle. In my own model, I see the concept of charge as a form of "recall potential", so to speak, that tends to pull the energy making up the half-photons towards each other. 

As for a quantum wave being generated by the photon, I have an entirely different view of how the wave function applies to elementary particles. In particular, since in my view, the wave function defines a resonance volume first and foremost, I do not understand it as being something like a "wave-being-emitted" only as a resonance volume within which oscillating energy quanta would be contained in resonance state either while in translational motion or when stabilized in some electromagnetic least action state. So I have no comment for this part.

I think your model is consistent with splitting into a pair of separately moving electron and positron if it has an energy of 1.022 MeV or more, just like my own model.

I agree with your idea of the charges of both half-photons being Q and -Q relative to each other, except in mine, their intensity cyclically varies. I think your use of the Coulomb force to hold them is consistent. In my model, I am still fuzzy about what the Coulomb force really is, so I am still in search of how it really applies within the structure of my model, although I am convinced that it applies. 

I have no comment on entanglement.

To your possible criticism No. 1) regarding the superluminal velocity. I agree that this is a problem.

You put in the possible criticism list the idea No. 2) the photon may be composite. 

No possible criticism in this case in my view. If the photon was not composite, it simply could not be polarized. If it was not composite, it would behave point-like like the electron, a structure that has no orientation in space. From my perspective, the very fact that it can be polarized by magnetic fields is the proof that it is internally composite.

Your possible criticism No. 3) is grounded on Larmor's hypothesis, not on physically observed behavior. No new law is required. There is no account on record of electrons accelerating in straight line that radiate energy while accelerating. You need to wiggle them from side to side along the trajectory for them to release synchrotron radiation. Also, the John Blewett experiments with the GE Betatron in the 1940`s showed that electrons on perfectly circular orbits do not radiate. Electrons radiate in cyclotron`s storage rings only because their trajectories are forced into "approximately circular" orbits, not "perfectly circular" orbits.

Your No. 4) is no criticism indeed, It simply is a possibility that single high enough energy photons could possibly produce muon-antimuon pairs for example. Your photon model is not oversimplified. I think it is ok in this respect.

Your No. 5) I would reformulate as follows: "Light "beam" (made of individual photos) easily pass through each other. You assume that their internal charges would interact with each other and disturb their photon trajectories.

If the pair of charges of each photon can be polarized transversally, which is what is observed, then what interaction they may have with each other will be on the transverse plane, mutually affecting only the orientation of their mutual polarities, which would not affect their trajectories, which is what is observed. Besides, since they cross paths each moving at c, the interaction is reduced to a barely measurable moment. We know they interact however, as proved by the McDonald et. all experiments at SLAC in 1997 when they mutually destabilized sufficiently for some 1.022 MeV (or more) photons in one of the beams to convert to electron positron pairs.

Your Number 6). I see wave-particle duality of the photon in the following manner: Longitudinal point-like behaving cross-section during absorption, and transverse electromagnetic oscillation (wave-like behavior) during motion. To me this is the only meaning of wave-particle duality.

Your Number 7) is interesting. The very structure of the 2 charges model of your photon model and of mine provide the answer. Both charges being rigidly maintained by structure on either side of the axis of motion of the photon, they can freely swivel on the perpendicular plane from the minutest transverse electric or magnetic interaction. This characteristic alone is sufficient in my view for entire beams of photons to be forced into the same polarity orientation by subjecting the beam to any specific electromagnetic constraint configuration. 

I would add two items to your list of possible criticism

8) How does the photon maintain its light velocity?

9) Since photons are supposed to be electromagnetic, how can the electric and magnetic fields that they are supposed to be associated with be described?

Quite a biteful to chew on! You seem to have addressed most issues that need to be analyzed about the photon.

Best Regards
---

André Michaud
GSJournal admin
http://www.gsjournal.net/
http://www.srpinc.org/

On Tue, 31 Oct 2017 19:23:45 -0700, Richard Gauthier wrote:

Forwarded from Chip

Begin forwarded message:

From: "Chip Akins" <chipakins at gmail.com>

Subject: [General] Relativity

Date: October 31, 2017 at 6:46:19 AM PDT

To: "'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'" <general at lists..natureoflightandparticles.org>

Reply-To: Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion <general at lists..natureoflightandparticles.org>

Hi Grahame (and Andre)

A while back, we briefly discussed the idea that SR is not “logically self-consistent” even though many conclude that it is mathematically self-consistent.

Regarding logical self-consistent issues…

In order to address this point I think we would need to take a look at the “landscape” as it relates to “relativity”.

While doing this, if we look at causes, which is to say that we use the concept of cause-and-effect as our guiding principle, as you have properly stressed, we can come to logical conclusions which simply do not agree with SR in all details.

So we can take a look at many of the known conditions to guide the development of a composite view of the causes for “relativity”.

Sound waves travel through a medium. Sound waves exhibit the Doppler Effect simply because they travel at a “fixed” speed through a “homogeneous” medium, regardless of the velocity of the object emitting the waves.

Light also exhibits the Doppler Effect in space.

So there is an indication that some similarities may exist between the causes of the Doppler Effect in sound and in light.

Einstein stated that “light is propagated in empty space with a velocity c which is independent of the motion of the source”, which is an incomplete statement, logically inconsistent, because thevelocity c in empty spacehas no meaning, unless we use the fixed frame of space, or some other reference, as the logical reference for that velocity. A velocity simply must be stated in reference to something.

Einstein also stated that, “Absolute uniform motion cannot be detected by any means.” Which is indicated by experiment as well. So no problem here.

And he then followed with the assertion that “This is to say that the concept of absolute rest and the ether have no meaning.” (Paraphrased)

This second conclusion isnotfully logically supported by the evidence presented, and is logically inconsistent with the assertion that “light is propagated in empty space with a velocity c which is independent of the motion of the source”. There are alternate interpretations of this evidence which are more causal and logical than this.

First, our inability to measure something does not necessarily make it meaningless. There are a myriad examples we can give of things which we cannot directly measure, but we have come to accept, because of indirect evidence which stipulates their existence.

We can however, from the evidence, reconstruct a set of conditions, which is causal, and yields results which match observation.

For example, if light is made of “stuff” that propagates through a fixed frame of space at c, and if matter is made of confined versions of the same “stuff” also propagating (in confinement) at c in a fixed frame of space, then we would have exactly this set of circumstances. We would not be able to detect our motion through space by using an apparatus like the Michelson-Morley experiment. Note: This approach does not relegate as meaningless anything which may in fact be quite important.

But if “the concept of absolute rest and the ether have no meaning.”Then how do we explain“light is propagated in empty space with a velocity c which is independent of the motion of the source”and the resultant Doppler Effect when a moving object emits light?

While I am fully aware of the explanation that EM radiation is represented by vector “fields”, and that they somehow could propagate through an empty space at a fixed velocity justified only by the math. That is a less satisfactory answer logically because it does not presentphysicalcause. This consideration, and the Doppler Effect, coupled with the underlying physical cause mentioned above, for us not being able to detect our own motion through space, yields two logically consistent reasons for looking at space as a sort of medium, with a “fixed” frame.

Lorentz transformations are a natural result of the situation mentioned above regarding the constitution of light a matter. These transformations are required under the circumstances where light and matter are made of the same “stuff” and that stuff moves at the fixed speed c in a fixed frame of space. This all occurs in a 3 dimensional Euclidian space.

So there is a more logically consistent, causal view, than the one proposed by SR.

When we run the math describing the situation where space is a medium in which the propagation of disturbances is a fixed velocity, and light and matter are made of these disturbances, we obtain the set of Lorentz transformations, and cause for “relativity” is shown, precisely and clearly. This is a logically consistent basis, and one which shows cause. In contrast to SR, which is a different interpretation of the same starting information, but does not show cause, and does not appear to be as logically consistent.

Are there ways to present this and related information which better illustrates the case from a logical basis?

Thoughts?

Chip

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