[General] half-photons??

[Viv Robinson]

Grahame,

Thank you for your response. I respectfully suggest that you have misquoted me. My statements were and still are that "explanations should be based upon physical principles supported by mathematics” and “experiment and/or observation are the final arbiters" of a theory. 

I am a little perplexed at what you see as a fundamental difference between your “causation” and my “physical principle”. IMHO they are the same thing. Some physical principle is needed to cause an event to happen. Mathematics can be used to calculate the magnitude of the physical principle that causes the event. If you believe physical principles are fundamentally different from causation, I will consider your viewpoint.

Regarding the production of particle/anti-particle pairs. I realize that Wikipedia may not be the world’s best authority on the matter. However from their website “Pair-Production” I quote "Pair production often refers specifically to a photon creating an electron-positron pair near a nucleus.” From the website "Positron Electron Pair Production - Nuclear Power", I quote "The presence of an electric field of a heavy atom such as lead or uranium is essential in order to satisfy conservation of momentum and energy”. Similar sentiments expressed in other websites indicate a nucleus is needed for the conservation of momentum during electron positron pair production. Based upon those and similar website comments, as well as my recollections of what I was taught during my University nuclear physics course, I am prepared to accept that a nucleus can be involved in electron positron pair production. 

You may call those references subjective if you wish. I prefer to think of them as referenced experimental observations. I will acknowledge that my use of the words “crumbled" or “bent” were perhaps too short to express the observation that a high energy photon enters the high electric field density associated with a large nucleus, transfers its momentum to the nucleus, alters its properties, including splitting in two, and produces an electron positron pair. 

That they can also be produced in gamma-gamma colliders does not mean their production from single gamma to a nucleus cannot occur. 

One of the reason for my comments was the number of communications where contributors make statements without the support of a physical principle or mathematics. The discussions go back and forth about the validity of what appear to be ideas forwarded without a physical principle or mathematics to support them. If that is what this discussion group wants, iso be it. It also seems to me that when some, such as John W or Martin vd M, offer corrective comments, many of which are well founded in observation and often standard model physics, less than favorable comments are made based upon what appears to be subjective criticism. I was hoping that some could see the benefit of comments based upon physical principles and supported by mathematics. At least Chip has indicated he will soon forward his ideas on half photons and their implications based upon his calculations. I hope others would do the same.

In the meantime as the word photon is used extensively in this “nature of light and particles” discussion group, I have forwarded my physical description of photons along with mathematical representations. I am quite happy to receive communications concerning other contributor’s interpretation of a photon. But please, give a physical description and some supporting mathematics to enable objective discussion to occur. Some standard model physicists hide behind the uncertainty principle and say we cannot determine the structure of photons (some also include electrons). They call them point particles to which they attach labels. I hope this is not acceptable to this discussion group.

Sincerely,

Vivian Robinson

On 17 October 2017 at 5:51:13 AM, Dr Grahame Blackwell (grahame at starweave.com) wrote:

Viv,
 
I have seen many times your assertion that theories should be supported by (a) experiment and (b) mathematics.  Whilst I don't disagree, I'd respectfully suggest that there's a third factor without which those first two can still lead to false conclusions.  That third factor is causation.
 
I am strongly of the view that we live in a causal universe; if we don't then we may as well all pack up our theories and retire, since any theory becomes worthless in a non-causal universe.  One classic example of where causation has been left out of every proposal is Relativity Theory: we're asked to accept that the wholly relative universe is just how it is, however counter-intuitive, without any explanation or proposal as to causation.
 
For myself, I'm fully content that it's possible to derive ALL findings of SR and GR from a non-relative framework - i.e. to explain causation for all of those findings.  This derivation actually includes the inevitable consequence that readings from instruments made from physical matter will produce results that wholly accord with the notion that the universe IS intrinsically relative.  In other words I can formulate a theory of a wholly relative universe, produce a mathematically self-consistent theory, and demonstrate the validity of that theory through experiment - EVEN IF my initial premise is completely fallacious.  This is precisely what's been done, pretty much continuously, for the past 100+ years.
 
If, however, I consider causation: "WHY do I get results that appear to fly in the face of common sense?" - then it's absolutely possible to produce a self-consistent, mathematically robust theory that provides a full explanation as to causation AND AT THE SAME TIME leads to experimental results exactly as found.  For me a theory that includes firm mathematics, full consistent experimental validation AND causation beats hands-down a theory that includes both of your preferred factors but neglects to consider causation.
 
I do feel, also, that sometimes you choose what does and doesn't 'count' to suit your own theories.  Notably below you take issue with (deride?) the theories of others - yet you're quite prepared to propose that a photon would 'crumple' on colliding with matter!  Sorry, but for me that doesn't wash - at least not without a lot more rationale than you've provided.  A photon isn't a Ford or a Lamborghini, why on earth is it 'not unrealistic' to expect that it would behave in like manner??  I suggest, Vivian, that if another in the group had proposed this notion and it didn't fit with your chosen view, then it's more than likely that you'd have had little truck with it and been quite vocal in your dismissal of it.
 
You also say that a photon "requires an interaction with matter" to form an electron.  Where did this come from?  Is it a pure Vivian-ism?  It certainly doesn't accord with well-established experimental evidence (or accepted theory) to date.  As I stated previously, Landau & Lifshitz established that the essential precursor to e+/e- pair production is generation of two then-colliding photons (not matter, notice); the Breit-Wheeler Process demands no matter to be involved; the 1997 SLAC pair-production demonstration generated e+/e- pairs from collision of photons - no matter there (apart from containing vessels - and I've not heard anyone suggest that those containing vessels took any significant part in the process, the evidence as presented indicates that it was all down to those colliding photons).
 
Viv, you talk about "subjective opinion" and regularly offer the pre-eminence of experiment and math.  Both math and experiment support the notion of two colliding photons generating an e+/e- pair (absolutely supporting the view that half of each photon has gone into formation of of each particle) - whereas your notion of a photon 'crumpling' on hitting matter to produce such a pair has absolutely no such provenance to my knowledge, mathematical or experimental.  Would you consider me unjustified in suggesting that your 'crumpled/bent' photon forming such a particle-antiparticle pair is 100% subjective opinion?
 
I'm not really convinced, Viv, that you apply the same level of critical appraisal to your own views as you do - often quite harshly - to the views of others.
 
I hope you find these observations helpful  - they're intended to redress the balance in what I see as a somewhat less than even-handed perspective.
 
Best regards,
Grahame
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Viv Robinson
To: Chip Akins ; Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 4:31 AM
Subject: Re: [General] Interference of Photons

Hi Chip, Grahame and All,

I have tried to suggest that explanations should be based upon physical principles supported by mathematics. To that end my last correspondence gave a physical description of different types of photons in terms of their electric and magnetic fields. Their mathematical form of the wave function Psi was also presented. Both depended upon the physical properties of free space, the electric permittivity and magnetic permeability. To the best of my knowledge no other representation of a photon has been presented to this group. Many keep mentioning photons without describing what they mean. The side benefit of that is participants can attribute any property they do or do not desire to a photon. 

Chip, what is meant by "half a photon"? How can “half a photon” exist without the other half? Regarding your comment "The whole photon does not possess the properties it takes to be confined to become and electron” John W (and Martin v d M may) suggest that it is possible, John W has also used some mathematics sin support of that proposal.. When a full circularly polarized photon makes two revolutions per wavelength the electric polarities and magnetic fields reinforce each other. This does not occur with any other combination of rotations per wavelength. That model explains many known electron properties and makes many predictions that can be tested experimentally. IMHO that gives a way that full photons can give rise to particles in general and electrons in particular. 

Grahame, I agree that a "a linear photon could not by itself form an electron”. It requires an interaction with matter. Without going into great detail, it is not unrealistic to expect that, at such interaction or collision the photon could “crumple” or bend and split. Half the photon would be confined to a negative charge, an electron, and the other half to a positive charge, a positron. Without a definition of a half photon, I am not sure how that idea differs from particle/anti-particle formation from a single energetic photon “splitting” into two confined “half photons”. As mentioned above, a circularly polarized electromagnetic wave making two revolutions within its wavelength will reinforce its electric and magnetic properties in a way that no other combination of rotations per wavelength can.

It would help your case if you were to give a description of half a photon and how " two half-photons (of requisite energy) can form an electron”. Without those sorts of explanations, everything is subjective opinion. 

Cheers 

Vivian R


On 16 October 2017 at 5:55:28 AM, Chip Akins (chipakins at gmail.com) wrote:

Hi Grahame


Yes. Perhaps semantics is getting in the way regarding a photon within an electron.

It seems that the correct half of what makes a photon would possess a single polarity of electric charge.  That is a portion of my objection to using the term photon for this form of energy.  A photon does not possess a single polarity of charge.  But a photon does not have the capacity to be fully confined in three dimensions and exhibit ½ hbar spin either.

So to me, so much has to be different from the properties of a photon, that calling this propagating energy within the electron a photon is not really an accurate or clear description.  But if one want to imagine that a photon can have charge, and a photon can be fully confined (not travel in a straight line at c), and can possess ½ hbar spin, then they could still call this thing a photon.  Just doesn’t seem correct to me.


Chip


From: General [mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org] On Behalf Of Dr Grahame Blackwell
Sent: Monday, October 16, 2017 6:37 AM
To: Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion <general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>
Subject: Re: [General] Interference of Photons


Hi Chip & all,


Having written of an electron as being a cyclic-photon construct, I have to agree with Chip that there are compelling reasons why a linear photon could not by itself form an electron.  My concept of a 'cyclic photon' is that of an electromagnetic waveform like a linear photon, but constrained by its own electromagnetic field interactions to travel in a cyclic path rather than linearly.  In my parlance this doesn't make it 'not a photon' - it depends on whether one's definition of a photon is necessarily something that travels in a straight line or whether one regards it simply as a packet of electromagnetic energy in the form of a self-propagating time-varying electromagnetic field effect: the latter is my understanding of the term.


So whilst I don't totally agree with Chip's view that there isn't a photon circulating in (or rather AS) an electron, this is due to our differing views on what constitutes a photon - it appears that we're agreed on what constitutes an electron.  I'm also fully in agreement with Chip (and all experimental evidence that I know of) that two half-photons (of requisite energy) can form an electron.


Best regards,

Grahame

----- Original Message -----

From: Chip Akins

To: 'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'

Sent: Monday, October 16, 2017 12:20 PM

Subject: Re: [General] Interference of Photons


Hi John M and Vivian


First, Vivian. I am and exception apparently, for I do not believe there is a photon circulating inside an electron. To me the evidence indicates that a whole photon cannot become an electron. The whole photon does not possess the properties it takes to be confined to become and electron.  Two half photons could become an electron.


John M.  One thing I wanted to mention is related to your comment…

“My model obtains the exact force between two particles at any separation if they had Planck charge rather than charge e.”

This is because the model of space as a two component tension medium suggested, obtains the exact force between two particles at any separation, and this is precisely the force of the elementary charge.


So I will take a look at the gravitational force between two electrons using this model and get back to you.


Chip


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