[General] What holds mass and charge together

Wed Sep 13 08:37:48 PDT 2017

Wolf B.:
You have said: “But that involves  giving up the notion of a fixed objective reality and moving toward a n acknowledgement of a Kantian unknowable about which we make models that express our best guess and judge them based on success.”

Yes! We are forever stuck by partial knowledge about the complex Cosmic Elephant. That is why we, the blinds, must accept that there is no un-changing firm foundation in this universe for us to walk on. The ultimate truth is that we, humans have not yet figured out how to access “the only truth, and nothing but the truth” about our universe. Plato’s story alerts us about the limits of measurements. But, the Asian elephant story guides us to work together synthesizing our diverse cognition capabilities, ITERATIVELY and PERPETUALLY. [See my paper at our last SPIE Conference of 2015; attached.] Nature is a logically self-consistent and marvelously creative system engineer. It is futile to think that we can grasp her reality: (i) by pure life-long mediation alone, (ii) by pure spiritualism and religion alone, (iii) by pure philosophy alone, (iv) by pure mathematics alone, or (v) by pure experimental observations alone.

This is why we need “five” groups of “blind men” to keep collaborating iteratively and perpetually forever and keep on advancing towards understanding the meaning and the purpose of this universe and what the roles of humans should be.
Even though we do not want to recognize this reality, we already have figured out that if we keep at it, (i) by creating logically consistent postulates, (ii) by structuring them using self-consistent mathematics, (iii) by repeatedly validating through “unbiased” experiments, we are getting better and better glimpse about the invisible Cosmic Elephant.

My current belief is that the universe is a  Complex Tension Field. The Cosmic Elephant is elusive to us because everything observable are just harmonic oscillations of this tension field. Of course, this is just one postulate by one “blind man” to build a unified field theory of everything. Current working theories have been built upon sets of limited postulates that were never meant to be integrated into one. That is why it is futile to keep on trying to force fit these theories into one unified theory. We have to start from the very bottom again with the explicit purpose of building a unified theory. We first need to develop several different self-congruent SETS OF POSTULATES, and then keep trying to build different sets of unified field theories and keep testing which one is more congruent with diverse observations compared to others.

Chandra.

From: General [mailto:general-bounces+chandra.roychoudhuri=uconn.edu at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Meulenberg
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2017 9:55 AM
To: Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion <general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>
Subject: Re: [General] What holds mass and charge together

I agree with Grahame. Separating charge and mass is like separating electricity and magnetism.
Andrew

On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 9:32 AM, Dr Grahame Blackwell <grahame at starweave.com<mailto:grahame at starweave.com>> wrote:
Wolf (et al.),

(diagrams dropped, with chain of other previous emails.)

In my view there is absolutely no issue as to what holds mass and charge together - neither is an object, to be 'held' to anything else, they are both effects.  There seems little doubt that both of those effects are artefacts of the fundamental content of a massive charged particle - namely its formative energy.

It's very simply shown that if a particle is moving then its energy content must increase in exactly the way described (without explanation) in SR - this is fully apparent from the Relativistic Energy-Momentum Relation; this is inertial mass, the requirement for that additional energy to maintain the structural integrity of the particle.  Likewise it's totally apparent from interference effects demonstrated in respect of massive particles that charge also must be an artefact of that formative energy.  So the very concept that they could possibly be separated, and so need holding together, makes absolutely no sense to me.  I Kant see the point of even discussing it! (Sorry, that pun may not translate very well!)

[As a point of detail, that energy is also its gravitational mass, for other reasons arising directly from that energy.]

Regards,
Grahame
----- Original Message -----
From: Wolfgang Baer<mailto:wolf at nascentinc.com>
To: Albrecht Giese<mailto:phys at a-giese.de> ; Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<mailto:general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2017 8:35 AM
Subject: [General] What holds mass and charge together

Chandra and Albrecht:

I fully agree with the Plato's shadow analogy and the realization that we have been building a physics that explains the shadows  not the reality is very clear. But that involves  giving up the notion of a fixed objective reality and moving toward a n acknowledgement of a Kantian unknowable about which we make models that express our best guess and judge them based on success.

It involves returning to simple examples and testing the logic of our assumptions. Toward this end I have returned to the old simple experimants the utilize the concept of mass and charge as the most understandable properties of matter. One of the central assumptions in physics is that of a point particle which places all properties of the particle and specifically the source and sink of mass and charge centers at a co-located point.

So I ask what holds charge and mass together? what kind of physics would we have if there were a force Fcm and Fmc between charge and mass and mass and charge.

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