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<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000">
<DIV>Chip:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The reference rest frame is the CMB frame, see the <A
title=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_microwave_background#CMBR_dipole_anisotropy
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_microwave_background#CMBR_dipole_anisotropy">CMBR
dipole anisotropy</A> on Wikipedia. You can use it to gauge your motion with
respect to the universe. It isn’t an absolute reference frame in the strict
sense, but the universe is as absolute as it gets. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>As for the length of the photon, I too favour the Drozdov and Stahlhofen
idea. But I can appreciate what those other people are saying. For example, I’ve
likened the photon to a seismic wave, but when an earthquake occurs, the ground
shakes back and forth repeatedly. It doesn’t move left a metre then right a
metre and then stop. Or take a look at the hydrogen 22cm line cause by an
electron spin flip: <A
title=http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/quantum/h21.html
href="http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/quantum/h21.html">http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/quantum/h21.html</A>.
Then get an elastic band and stretch it over your finger and thumb, poke a short
pencil through it, flip the pencil over, and let go: <EM>dub a dub a dub a dub a
dub a dub a dub!</EM></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Regards</DIV>
<DIV>John D </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000"></DIV>
<DIV
style='FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt tahoma">
<DIV><FONT size=3 face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=chipakins@gmail.com
href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com">Chip Akins</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, February 21, 2015 6:29 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">'Nature of Light and
Particles - General Discussion'</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [General] gravitation</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style='FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV class=WordSection1>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Hi
All<o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p><FONT
face=Calibri></FONT></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Following John Duffield’s comments
regarding photon’s relation to “time” and reading “The Other Meaning of Special
Relativity”, still leaves a few questions (for my feeble mental processes),
relating to correlating theory to experiment.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p><FONT
face=Calibri></FONT></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">My approach has been precisely as
described by Robert Close, regarding the photon constituted mass carrying
particles, clearly displaying relativistic properties naturally, due to their
wave (photon) structure.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">There appears to be a significant
amount of evidence supporting such an approach.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Underlying that approach, and as
an implication of the results, is the suggestion that there is (even if we
cannot detect it) a reference rest frame in space. Close therefore remarks,
<I>“</I></SPAN><I>What has not been generally recognized is that special
relativity is a consequence of the wave nature of matter and is entirely
consistent with classical notions of absolute space and time.<SPAN
style="COLOR: black">”<o:p></o:p></SPAN></I></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></I> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">So, like John D., I am still
looking for, and willing to exhaustively pursue, any possible explanations for
experiment, which are built on such an approach, before abandoning such a
robust, simple, and elegant, causal approach. But I cannot ignore the
compelling arguments from John Williamson, Martin van der Mark, Stephen Leary.
So at this time certain issues remain (for me) unresolved.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p><FONT
face=Calibri></FONT></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">While our discussions of the
photon and possible various relativistic interpretations, to describe
experiment, are quite stimulating and thought provoking. In my current
view, the idea that a photon can feel its entire future, at one point in
spacetime, raises more problems than it solves. While the “one point in
spacetime” approach, may in fact turn out to be the actual nature of physics, I
feel it is required to look for other explanations, and there are many
possibilities we can explore, before accepting any answer to best describe
experiment.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p><FONT
face=Calibri></FONT></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Hi
Stephen<o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p><FONT
face=Calibri></FONT></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Thank you for the analogy.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Of course to test any idea, we
need to look at the full range of applications of the
idea.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p><FONT
face=Calibri></FONT></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-AUTOSPACE: "><SPAN style="COLOR: black">I can
understand the photon exchange, hinted by your analogy, for a distance which is
easily within the field of the emitters and absorbers, or a distance where the
mutual field strength is sufficiently above the “background” noise floor.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-AUTOSPACE: "><SPAN style="COLOR: black">However
for me it does not seem to hold for large distances. In other words, I
feel that for close range photon exchange, the fields are sufficiently strong to
have an influence on such photon exchange. Tony Fleming has created a
model for the hydrogen atom using a variation of such an approach, which is very
accurate at predicting the properties of this atom. “<U>Electromagnetic
Self-Field Theory and Its Application to the Hydrogen Atom</U>” Anthony Fleming
2005.<U><o:p></o:p></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-AUTOSPACE: "><U><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p><SPAN
style="TEXT-DECORATION: none"> </SPAN></o:p></SPAN></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-AUTOSPACE: "><SPAN style="COLOR: black">However
for very large distances, it seems to me that photon “exchange” is not a
pre-required condition, and that photon emission is quite acceptable even if the
eventual absorber is not already known at emission. I do not yet feel, that a
photon can only exist, if the absorber is already “known” by the
photon.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-AUTOSPACE: "><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-AUTOSPACE: "><B><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Hi
John D. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-AUTOSPACE: "><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-AUTOSPACE: "><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Thank you
for the references to photon models. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-AUTOSPACE: "><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-AUTOSPACE: "><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Having
toyed with certain photon models, the one described by Drozdov and Stahlhofen
has been very close to my preferred model. But it leaves questions raised
by some experimental observation unanswered. However I have not
looked closely at the full set of implications regarding the possibility that a
viable photon model may also exist, encompassing multiples of its wavelength. To
explore, we might be able to model the emission duration for certain events, and
compare that estimated duration to the emitted photon wavelength.
Meanwhile, I will run some math to explore further.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-AUTOSPACE: "><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-AUTOSPACE: "><B><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Hi
Chandra<o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-AUTOSPACE: "><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-AUTOSPACE: "><SPAN style="COLOR: black">I agree
with your approach and comments regarding our quest.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-AUTOSPACE: "><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-AUTOSPACE: "><SPAN style="COLOR: black">And
referring directly to…<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><I><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">“If we do not explicitly
frame our questions to access reality of nature; we will never find
it!”<o:p></o:p></SPAN></I></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">The group has begun addressing
specific issues, from different viewpoints, which enhance our individual, and
therefore collective, ability to look more clearly at the problems, and the
implications of different views, and therefore review the possibilities in a
more complete manner.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Thank you for your tremendous
assistance and contribution to this process.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">All<o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-AUTOSPACE: "><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-AUTOSPACE: "><SPAN style="COLOR: black">It
appears we have a consensus for material substance (mass carrying particles)
from light.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-AUTOSPACE: "><SPAN style="COLOR: black">If we do
have a consensus for building matter from light (photons), then it seems we must
better understand the photon, for the photon then becomes the foundation for
everything. So that misconceptions in the understanding of the photon, would
propagate to the entire concept.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Chip<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-TOP: #e1e1e1 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'> General
[mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>John Duffield<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, February 21, 2015
9:46 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Nature of Light and Particles - General
Discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [General]
gravitation<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Andrew:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>It’s a mystery to me why
people don’t know about this kind of stuff. Einstein said </SPAN><A
href="http://www.rain.org/~karpeles/einsteindis.html"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'>a field is a state of
space</SPAN></A><SPAN style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>.
Susskind said the same in his video lecture. And there aren’t two states of
space where an electron is.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>As for the strong force,
it’s supposed to be fundamental. So ask yourself this: <EM><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'>where does the strong force go in
low-energy proton-antiproton annihilation to gamma photons? </SPAN></EM>And ask
yourself this: <EM><SPAN style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'>what is it
that makes the electromagnetic wave propagate at c?</SPAN></EM> Alternatively,
imagine you can hold this electron in your hands like a bagel.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'><IMG id=Picture_x0020_1
border=0 alt=toroidalphotonsmall
src="cid:4814C3AD21074F6A91B40C24D5870E6A@HPlaptop" width=265
height=192></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Imagine it’s elastic,
like the bag model. Try to pull it apart. You will find that you cannot. You
can’t pull this kiddie apart either:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'><IMG id=Picture_x0020_2
border=0 alt=trefoil src="cid:973BCEAAF7374C8AA3F03A55D66354B4@HPlaptop"
width=229 height=229></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>It’s made of three
parts, three partons. See </SPAN><A title=http://www.ipmu.jp/webfm_send/1053
href="http://www.ipmu.jp/webfm_send/1053"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'>http://www.ipmu.jp/webfm_send/1053</SPAN></A><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> and note page 11 where
Witten mentions knot crossings? Trace round it clockwise starting at the bottom
left calling out the crossing-over directions: <EM><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'>up up down</SPAN></EM>. When you do
eventually break this thing, you don’t see three things flying free.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Regards<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>John D
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>
</SPAN><A title=mules333@gmail.com href="mailto:mules333@gmail.com"><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif'>Andrew
Meulenberg</SPAN></A><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>
Saturday, February 21, 2015 6:41 AM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>
</SPAN><A title=general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif'>Nature of Light and
Particles - General Discussion</SPAN></A><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>
[General] gravitation<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Dear John
D,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>I wonder why this
concept has not been developed?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-LEFT: 30pt">
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>"The clockwise and
anticlockwise twists don’t quite cancel. The rubber sheet is subject to a
tension that diminishes with distance. That represents the hydrogen atom’s
gravitational field."<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>I came to this
conclusion several years ago that gravitation was the long-range, non-torsional,
'residue' of the strong EM fields composing the net-neutral charge fields of
matter. This came from thinking (non-mathematically) about the differences
between the E & M forces as distortions of space & how relativity
affects them.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>I hope to write-up a
paper on strong-gravity (after the conference in August), that describes the
nuclear strong force as resulting from the interacting short-range (multipole)
fields of the relativistic electron-positron 'clusters' (triplets?) called
quarks.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
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