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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Hi Martin<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>I think you are right regarding the “edge” of our universe. This has been my perception of the possible sort of “confinement” of our universe as well. So that we, from inside of our universe, would find it hard to perceive an “edge” to this curvature.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Chip<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> General [mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Mark, Martin van der<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, February 22, 2015 10:37 AM<br><b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] the edge of the universe<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Guys,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>The universe has an edge in some sense, it is in fact a black hole, nothing can escape (even by definition). It tries to expand, light it going outwards but is held back just as in a “common” black hole.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>It is impossible to reach the edge. But would you manage to get there somehow, the new edge has shifted a bit further…it is our good old horizon again!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Cheers, Martin<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=DE style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>Dr. Martin B. van der Mark</span><span lang=DE style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>Principal Scientist, Minimally Invasive Healthcare</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:navy'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>Philips Research Europe - Eindhoven</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>High Tech Campus, Building 34 (WB2.025)</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>Prof. Holstlaan 4</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>5656 AE Eindhoven, The Netherlands</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>Tel: +31 40 2747548</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'> General [</span><a href="mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>John Duffield<br><b>Sent:</b> zondag 22 februari 2015 17:29<br><b>To:</b> 'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] the edge of the universe<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>Chip:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>Now you mention it, I think the universe has to have some kind of edge. I wrote something speculative about it </span><a href="http://bogpaper.com/science-sundays-with-john-duffield-edge-of-the-universe/" title="http://bogpaper.com/science-sundays-with-john-duffield-edge-of-the-universe/"><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>here</span></a><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>. WMAP says the universe is flat, </span><a href="http://arxiv.org/abs/1303.5086"><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Planck has found no evidence of any curvature or any toroidal topology</span></a><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> , and IMHO an infinite universe can not be an expanding universe, because then the energy-pressure would be counterbalanced at all locations. If it isn’t curved round on itself and if it doesn’t go on forever, there’s not a lot of options left: it has to have some kind of edge. Such that there is no space beyond this edge, there <em><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>is</span></em> no beyond it. As for what it’s like, I don’t know. Maybe the universe is some kind of hall-of-mirrors thing, like mentioned </span><a href="http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/space/05/24/universe.wide/" title="http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/space/05/24/universe.wide/"><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>here</span></a><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>. Maybe there’s some kind of event horizon, maybe it’s none of the above, I don’t know. But what I do know is this: cosmologists use the surface of a sphere as an example of something without an edge, even though there is no evidence whatsoever of any higher dimensionality. It occurs to me that they’re like the old flat-Earth guys in reverse. It is alleged that in ancient times people could not conceive of a world without an edge. Nowadays cosmologists can not conceive of a world <em><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>with</span></em> an edge. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>John D<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><a href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com" title="chipakins@gmail.com"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>Chip Akins</span></a><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black'>Sent:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black'> Sunday, February 22, 2015 3:43 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black'>To:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><a href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" title="general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'</span></a><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black'>Subject:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black'> Re: [General] gravitation<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Hi Stephen<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Thank you for the insight.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>What I am saying however, is that emission of a photon, may not be dependent on there being a pre-identified absorber. But rather, that if the local field conditions of the emitter allow emission in a specific direction, then a photon could be emitted. The local field herein would be defined as the area around the emitter wherein the fields from absorbers are still strong enough to be even slightly sensed by the emitter.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Since we do not yet know if there is an “edge” to the universe (meaning an “edge” of space-time), nor do we know the nature of such an “edge” should it exist. It may not add clarity to our perceptions to try to contemplate the possible actions of photons in that location. But my feeling is that, if we envision an edge exists, the void beyond would present no fields to an adjacent particle sufficiently close to that edge, and therefore no condition for emission would be presented.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>What I am having some trouble digesting is the concept that, regardless of distance or time, an emitter and absorber are pre-identified prior to photon “exchange”. I understand the concept, but the implications do not seem to be a description of our universe. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>For, if every photon in flight, at this instant, had identified its specific absorber prior to or at emission, then the exact location of all absorbers, the future position of every particle or atom, meaning our exact fate, was known and established billions of years ago.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Is there another way to look at long distance photon “exchange” which does not present this problem?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Chip<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> General [</span><a href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Stephen Leary<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, February 22, 2015 2:30 AM<br><b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] gravitation<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Hi Chip, <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>I request you add the following question to your thinking and see how it fits in. Consider matter at the "edge" of the universe (by that i mean that there is no matter beyond and make that explicit assumption). Is that matter allowed/able to emit photons in any direction regardless of whether they are ever absorbed?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>IMHO they cannot do this. Similarly for long distance photons I don't see the issue. It just reduces the likelyhood of interaction. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Stephen<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 6:29 PM, Chip Akins <</span><a href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com" target="_blank">chipakins@gmail.com</a><span style='color:black'>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='color:black'>Hi All</span></b><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'>Following John Duffield’s comments regarding photon’s relation to “time” and reading “The Other Meaning of Special Relativity”, still leaves a few questions (for my feeble mental processes), relating to correlating theory to experiment.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'>My approach has been precisely as described by Robert Close, regarding the photon constituted mass carrying particles, clearly displaying relativistic properties naturally, due to their wave (photon) structure.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'>There appears to be a significant amount of evidence supporting such an approach.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'>Underlying that approach, and as an implication of the results, is the suggestion that there is (even if we cannot detect it) a reference rest frame in space. Close therefore remarks, <i>“What has not been generally recognized is that special relativity is a consequence of the wave nature of matter and is entirely consistent with classical notions of absolute space and time.”</i><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><i><span style='color:black'> </span></i><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'>So, like John D., I am still looking for, and willing to exhaustively pursue, any possible explanations for experiment, which are built on such an approach, before abandoning such a robust, simple, and elegant, causal approach. But I cannot ignore the compelling arguments from John Williamson, Martin van der Mark, Stephen Leary. So at this time certain issues remain (for me) unresolved.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'>While our discussions of the photon and possible various relativistic interpretations, to describe experiment, are quite stimulating and thought provoking. In my current view, the idea that a photon can feel its entire future, at one point in spacetime, raises more problems than it solves. While the “one point in spacetime” approach, may in fact turn out to be the actual nature of physics, I feel it is required to look for other explanations, and there are many possibilities we can explore, before accepting any answer to best describe experiment.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='color:black'>Hi Stephen</span></b><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'>Thank you for the analogy. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'>Of course to test any idea, we need to look at the full range of applications of the idea.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'>I can understand the photon exchange, hinted by your analogy, for a distance which is easily within the field of the emitters and absorbers, or a distance where the mutual field strength is sufficiently above the “background” noise floor. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'>However for me it does not seem to hold for large distances. In other words, I feel that for close range photon exchange, the fields are sufficiently strong to have an influence on such photon exchange. Tony Fleming has created a model for the hydrogen atom using a variation of such an approach, which is very accurate at predicting the properties of this atom. “<u>Electromagnetic Self-Field Theory and Its Application to the Hydrogen Atom</u>” Anthony Fleming 2005.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'>However for very large distances, it seems to me that photon “exchange” is not a pre-required condition, and that photon emission is quite acceptable even if the eventual absorber is not already known at emission. I do not yet feel, that a photon can only exist, if the absorber is already “known” by the photon.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='color:black'>Hi John D. </span></b><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'>Thank you for the references to photon models. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'>Having toyed with certain photon models, the one described by Drozdov and Stahlhofen has been very close to my preferred model. But it leaves questions raised by some experimental observation unanswered. However I have not looked closely at the full set of implications regarding the possibility that a viable photon model may also exist, encompassing multiples of its wavelength. To explore, we might be able to model the emission duration for certain events, and compare that estimated duration to the emitted photon wavelength. Meanwhile, I will run some math to explore further.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='color:black'>Hi Chandra</span></b><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'>I agree with your approach and comments regarding our quest.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'>And referring directly to…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><i><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:black'>“If we do not explicitly frame our questions to access reality of nature; we will never find it!”</span></i></b><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:black'>The group has begun addressing specific issues, from different viewpoints, which enhance our individual, and therefore collective, ability to look more clearly at the problems, and the implications of different views, and therefore review the possibilities in a more complete manner.</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:black'>Thank you for your tremendous assistance and contribution to this process.</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:black'>All</span></b><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'>It appears we have a consensus for material substance (mass carrying particles) from light.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'>If we do have a consensus for building matter from light (photons), then it seems we must better understand the photon, for the photon then becomes the foundation for everything. So that misconceptions in the understanding of the photon, would propagate to the entire concept.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'>Chip<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> General [mailto:</span><a href="mailto:general-bounces%2Bchipakins" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>general-bounces+chipakins</span></a><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>=</span><a href="mailto:gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>John Duffield<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, February 21, 2015 9:46 AM<br><b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] gravitation</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>Andrew:</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>It’s a mystery to me why people don’t know about this kind of stuff. Einstein said </span><a href="http://www.rain.org/~karpeles/einsteindis.html" target="_blank"><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>a field is a state of space</span></a><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>. Susskind said the same in his video lecture. And there aren’t two states of space where an electron is.</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>As for the strong force, it’s supposed to be fundamental. So ask yourself this: <em><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>where does the strong force go in low-energy proton-antiproton annihilation to gamma photons? </span></em>And ask yourself this: <em><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>what is it that makes the electromagnetic wave propagate at c?</span></em> Alternatively, imagine you can hold this electron in your hands like a bagel. </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'><img border=0 width=265 height=192 id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.png@01D04E8D.C9161FD0" alt=toroidalphotonsmall></span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>Imagine it’s elastic, like the bag model. Try to pull it apart. You will find that you cannot. You can’t pull this kiddie apart either:</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'><img border=0 width=229 height=229 id="Picture_x0020_2" src="cid:image002.png@01D04E8D.C9161FD0" alt=trefoil></span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>It’s made of three parts, three partons. See </span><a href="http://www.ipmu.jp/webfm_send/1053" target="_blank" title="http://www.ipmu.jp/webfm_send/1053"><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>http://www.ipmu.jp/webfm_send/1053</span></a><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> and note page 11 where Witten mentions knot crossings? Trace round it clockwise starting at the bottom left calling out the crossing-over directions: <em><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>up up down</span></em>. When you do eventually break this thing, you don’t see three things flying free. </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>Regards</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>John D </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;background:whitesmoke'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><a href="mailto:mules333@gmail.com" target="_blank" title="mules333@gmail.com"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>Andrew Meulenberg</span></a><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;background:whitesmoke'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black'>Sent:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black'> Saturday, February 21, 2015 6:41 AM</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;background:whitesmoke'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black'>To:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><a href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank" title="general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion</span></a><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;background:whitesmoke'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black'>Subject:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black'> [General] gravitation</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>Dear John D,</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>I wonder why this concept has not been developed?</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:30.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>"The clockwise and anticlockwise twists don’t quite cancel. The rubber sheet is subject to a tension that diminishes with distance. That represents the hydrogen atom’s gravitational field."</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>I came to this conclusion several years ago that gravitation was the long-range, non-torsional, 'residue' of the strong EM fields composing the net-neutral charge fields of matter. This came from thinking (non-mathematically) about the differences between the E & M forces as distortions of space & how relativity affects them.</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>I hope to write-up a paper on strong-gravity (after the conference in August), that describes the nuclear strong force as resulting from the interacting short-range (multipole) fields of the relativistic electron-positron 'clusters' (triplets?) called quarks.</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>Andrew</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'><hr size=2 width="100%" align=center></span></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>_______________________________________________<br>If you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light and Particles General Discussion List at </span><a href="mailto:johnduffield@btconnect.com" target="_blank"><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>johnduffield@btconnect.com</span></a><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'><br><a href="</span><a href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/johnduffield%40btconnect.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1" target="_blank"><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/johnduffield%40btconnect.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1</span></a><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>"><br>Click here to unsubscribe<br></a></span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='color:black'><br>_______________________________________________<br>If you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light and Particles General Discussion List at </span><a href="mailto:sleary@vavi.co.uk">sleary@vavi.co.uk</a><span style='color:black'><br><a href="</span><a href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/sleary%40vavi.co.uk?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1" target="_blank">http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/sleary%40vavi.co.uk?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1</a><span style='color:black'>"><br>Click here to unsubscribe<br></a><o:p></o:p></span></p></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><br><br clear=all><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>-- <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Stephen Leary<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'><hr size=2 width="100%" align=center></span></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>_______________________________________________<br>If you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light and Particles General Discussion List at </span><a href="mailto:johnduffield@btconnect.com"><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>johnduffield@btconnect.com</span></a><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'><br><a href="</span><a href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/johnduffield%40btconnect.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1"><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/johnduffield%40btconnect.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1</span></a><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>"><br>Click here to unsubscribe<br></a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><hr size=2 width="100%" align=center></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:gray'>The information contained in this message may be confidential and legally protected under applicable law. 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