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<div>Hi Chip, again the photon has mass, inertial mass and gravitational mass. It is the equivalence principle. Also p=mc=hf/c=h/lambda !!!!!!</div>
<div>You cannot get away from it, it is the same thing again.</div>
<div>shake it off! Think again!</div>
<div>I can only take you to the water....</div>
<div>I will only respond once more, at the conference, but then it will be beer đ</div>
<div>Martin</div>
<div><br>
Verstuurd vanaf mijn iPhone</div>
<div><br>
Op 23 feb. 2015 om 23:19 heeft "Chip Akins" <<a href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com">chipakins@gmail.com</a>> het volgende geschreven:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Hi Martin<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">I am aware of the mass considerations of photons, the effect that gravity has on them, and the photon in a box thought experiment. They (photons) do have these properties, but they do not exhibit inertial mass
as particles do. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Chip<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> General [<a href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Mark, Martin van der<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 23, 2015 3:24 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] gravitation<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Chip, take a deep breath.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">A photon has a mass. Light is heavy. Energy is exactly the same thing as mass, the units differ by c^2, that is all. E=mc^2 is NOT, I say NOT describing a reaction
where energy is converted into mass or vice versa. In the famous Eddington experiment, light from a star is GRAVITATIONALLY deflected by the sun (and the sun is pulled aside by the photon, a very, very tiny little bit)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">This is really how it is.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Photons sometimes are said to have no REST mass. But the buggers just cannot sit still, now can they? It is a rather loose and confusing statement that is only
true in some unphysical limit.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">But photons can be put in a box, and then put on a scale to weigh them: m=hf/c^2<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Really, I am not pulling your leg, I just want to spare you a lot of waist of energy⌠eh mass? ;-)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy">Dr. Martin B. van der Mark</span><span lang="DE" style="color:navy"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy">Principal Scientist, Minimally Invasive Healthcare</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:navy"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:navy"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy">Philips Research Europe - Eindhoven</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:navy"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy">High Tech Campus, Building 34 (WB2.025)</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:navy"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy">Prof. Holstlaan 4</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:navy"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy">5656 AE Eindhoven, The Netherlands</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:navy"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy">Tel: +31 40 2747548</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"> General [<a href="mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Chip Akins<br>
<b>Sent:</b> maandag 23 februari 2015 15:09<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] gravitation<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Hi Stephen<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Thank you for the critique. I really appreciate the belief aspect which can cause us to stray from science. I think that most of us are looking at the current understanding and asking if it is valid, probably
for a variety of reasons. Searching for answers and probing a wider range of possibilities, rather than just accepting whatever the current general set of beliefs are, is this also not science?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Actually, I am quite satisfied to accept the full answers wherever they lead us.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">The requirement to conserve energy is not violated by my proposal, Photons are absorbed whenever they are incident upon an acceptable absorber. Maybe it depends on the definition of âabsorberâ. In my opinion
it is entirely acceptable to space to be the destination for a photon. And yes, I feel the âedgeâ of space is âcurvedâ which preserves the conservation of energy.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">When a theory does not seem to adequately explain the observable universe, it seems to be appropriate to question that theory.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">For several reasons, some of which are touched on below, I feel there may well be another solution which provides for the observations of experiment.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">One thing that seems to bother me, is when we find infinities in our theories. It does not seem to be an infinity paranoia, but rather a tendency to question the validity of the argument which brought us to adopt
the infinite solution, if another solution exists. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">OK, perhaps âinfinity paranoiaâ is an appropriate description.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">If matter is made from light, most of the basic principles of relativity would be the natural result. Our observations would hold that the physical laws do not change across different reference frames, that the
speed of light will be measured as a constant, and that matter cannot travel at the speed of light.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">The following thoughts are based upon the concept that matter is made from light, particles are made from photons.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Our measurement of time would then be based on the frequencies of particles and their resultant interactions in our inertial frame. In that sense the photon would be the physical generator of time, or the underlying
mechanism which creates time.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Time, as we are able to measure or define it, for a single photon then becomes a difficult issue to try to determine, from the âinertialâ frame of the photon. The photon has no âinertial frameâ since it has no
mass and no therefore no inertia. Yes it has energy and momentum but that is not the same thing.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Trying to stretch relativity, which is designed to relate how matter reacts with light, spacetime, and other matter, and try to apply the same rules of relativity which work for matter, to the photon, which is
the cause of creation for the principle of relativity, and the foundation and cause of creation for the property of time, may be an error.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">As an analogy, a photon has no mass, but creates mass when confined into a particle. So it is not prudent to try to calculate the mass term for the free photon in the same manner we use for particles or matter,
like E=mc<sup>2</sup>. The photon is the reason the term E=mc<sup>2</sup> would work for matter. The photon however, being the source, which is to say, the cause for the mass term for matter, lies outside that definition of mass. In this sense it is part
of the definition of the property of mass, and in a similar way, it is part of the definition of the property of time.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">So, in that sense, the fields and forces which comprise the photon, cannot be relativistic in the normal sense of the term. The EM fields are quite naturally propagating at the speed of light, but they create the
property of relativity due to their specific interactions with space and their natural reactions within particles.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Returning to the view that EM fields, with their inherent properties, make up photons and all particles, create inertial mass, create the circumstances for âtimeâ as we know it, and create the principle of relativity,
we must then conclude that relativistic treatment of these waves is entirely unnecessary, and in fact, an error. Just as it would be an error to flatly state that the mass of a free photon is m=E/ c<sup>2</sup>.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">It is my view that spacetime only supports, at the most basic level, one form of energy. That energy is always in the form of EM waves. Likewise I feel the photon is the simplest, most elemental form of that EM
energy. So then, the photon is simply the fields of the EM waves, with the inherent forces and energy density allowed by the energy in the photon and spacetime. It follows then that these circumstances engender the properties of the photon, like speed of propagation,
spin angular momentum, polarization, etc.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">I think we were faced with problematic behaviors while studying the photon, and reached for, and misapplied, an apparent âsolutionâ, to âexplainâ those behaviors. Relativistic treatment of the photon allowed us
to find one âsolutionâ which implies that emitters and absorbers are identified prior to emission. The vast implications of that âsolutionâ just simply do not seem to describe our universe. So yes, I will continue to search for other possible solutions which
can explain experiment. And yes, this search is motivated in part by belief. But I suspect that is one of the motivations behind almost all research. The issue becomes, can we change our beliefs, once we discover a solution which does in fact fit all criteria
of the observable.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> General [<a href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Stephen Leary<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 23, 2015 4:16 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] gravitation<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Chip, <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">There is experimental evidence to suggest that the emission of a photon is dependent on there being a pre-defined absorber. This is pretty much a requirement to conserve energy as photons would "miss" otherwise and eventually all energy
would be photons and there would be no matter. You seem to be falling into the trap of only looking at the evidence that supports your beliefs. That is not science.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Regards<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Stephen<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 3:43 PM, Chip Akins <<a href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com" target="_blank">chipakins@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black">Hi Stephen</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black">Thank you for the insight.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black">What I am saying however, is that emission of a photon, may not be dependent on there being a pre-identified absorber. But rather, that if the local field
conditions of the emitter allow emission in a specific direction, then a photon could be emitted. The local field herein would be defined as the area around the emitter wherein the fields from absorbers are still strong enough to be even slightly sensed by
the emitter.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black">Since we do not yet know if there is an âedgeâ to the universe (meaning an âedgeâ of space-time), nor do we know the nature of such an âedgeâ should it
exist. It may not add clarity to our perceptions to try to contemplate the possible actions of photons in that location. But my feeling is that, if we envision an edge exists, the void beyond would present no fields to an adjacent particle sufficiently close
to that edge, and therefore no condition for emission would be presented.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black">What I am having some trouble digesting is the concept that, regardless of distance or time, an emitter and absorber are pre-identified prior to photon
âexchangeâ. I understand the concept, but the implications do not seem to be a description of our universe.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black">For, if every photon in flight, at this instant, had identified its specific absorber prior to or at emission, then the exact location of all absorbers,
the future position of every particle or atom, meaning our exact fate, was known and established billions of years ago.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black">Is there another way to look at long distance photon âexchangeâ which does not present this problem?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black">Chip</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> General [mailto:</span><a href="mailto:general-bounces%2Bchipakins" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">general-bounces+chipakins</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">=</span><a href="mailto:gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Stephen Leary<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, February 22, 2015 2:30 AM</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] gravitation<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Hi Chip, <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">I request you add the following question to your thinking and see how it fits in. Consider matter at the "edge" of the universe (by that i mean that there is no matter beyond and
make that explicit assumption). Is that matter allowed/able to emit photons in any direction regardless of whether they are ever absorbed?<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">IMHO they cannot do this. Similarly for long distance photons I don't see the issue. It just reduces the likelyhood of interaction. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Regards<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Stephen<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 6:29 PM, Chip Akins <<a href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com" target="_blank">chipakins@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="color:black">Hi All</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black">Following John Duffieldâs comments regarding photonâs relation to âtimeâ and reading âThe Other Meaning of Special Relativityâ, still leaves a few questions
(for my feeble mental processes), relating to correlating theory to experiment.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black">My approach has been precisely as described by Robert Close, regarding the photon constituted mass carrying particles, clearly displaying relativistic
properties naturally, due to their wave (photon) structure.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black">There appears to be a significant amount of evidence supporting such an approach.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black">Underlying that approach, and as an implication of the results, is the suggestion that there is (even if we cannot detect it) a reference rest frame in
space. Close therefore remarks, <i>â</i></span><i>What has not been generally recognized is that special relativity is a consequence of the wave nature of matter and is entirely consistent with classical notions of absolute space and time.<span style="color:black">â</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><i><span style="color:black"> </span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black">So, like John D., I am still looking for, and willing to exhaustively pursue, any possible explanations for experiment, which are built on such an approach,
before abandoning such a robust, simple, and elegant, causal approach. But I cannot ignore the compelling arguments from John Williamson, Martin van der Mark, Stephen Leary. So at this time certain issues remain (for me) unresolved.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black">While our discussions of the photon and possible various relativistic interpretations, to describe experiment, are quite stimulating and thought provoking.
In my current view, the idea that a photon can feel its entire future, at one point in spacetime, raises more problems than it solves. While the âone point in spacetimeâ approach, may in fact turn out to be the actual nature of physics, I feel it is required
to look for other explanations, and there are many possibilities we can explore, before accepting any answer to best describe experiment.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="color:black">Hi Stephen</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black">Thank you for the analogy.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black">Of course to test any idea, we need to look at the full range of applications of the idea.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-autospace:none">
<span style="color:black">I can understand the photon exchange, hinted by your analogy, for a distance which is easily within the field of the emitters and absorbers, or a distance where the mutual field strength is sufficiently above the âbackgroundâ noise
floor. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-autospace:none">
<span style="color:black">However for me it does not seem to hold for large distances. In other words, I feel that for close range photon exchange, the fields are sufficiently strong to have an influence on such photon exchange. Tony Fleming has created a
model for the hydrogen atom using a variation of such an approach, which is very accurate at predicting the properties of this atom. â<u>Electromagnetic Self-Field Theory and Its Application to the Hydrogen Atom</u>â Anthony Fleming 2005.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-autospace:none">
<span style="color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-autospace:none">
<span style="color:black">However for very large distances, it seems to me that photon âexchangeâ is not a pre-required condition, and that photon emission is quite acceptable even if the eventual absorber is not already known at emission. I do not yet feel,
that a photon can only exist, if the absorber is already âknownâ by the photon.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-autospace:none">
<span style="color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-autospace:none">
<b><span style="color:black">Hi John D. </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-autospace:none">
<span style="color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-autospace:none">
<span style="color:black">Thank you for the references to photon models. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-autospace:none">
<span style="color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-autospace:none">
<span style="color:black">Having toyed with certain photon models, the one described by Drozdov and Stahlhofen has been very close to my preferred model. But it leaves questions raised by some experimental observation unanswered. However I have not looked
closely at the full set of implications regarding the possibility that a viable photon model may also exist, encompassing multiples of its wavelength. To explore, we might be able to model the emission duration for certain events, and compare that estimated
duration to the emitted photon wavelength. Meanwhile, I will run some math to explore further.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-autospace:none">
<span style="color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-autospace:none">
<b><span style="color:black">Hi Chandra</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-autospace:none">
<span style="color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-autospace:none">
<span style="color:black">I agree with your approach and comments regarding our quest.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-autospace:none">
<span style="color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-autospace:none">
<span style="color:black">And referring directly toâŚ</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt">âIf we do not explicitly frame our questions to access reality of nature; we will never find it!â</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">The group has begun addressing specific issues, from different viewpoints, which enhance our individual, and therefore collective, ability to look
more clearly at the problems, and the implications of different views, and therefore review the possibilities in a more complete manner.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Thank you for your tremendous assistance and contribution to this process.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt">All</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-autospace:none">
<span style="color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-autospace:none">
<span style="color:black">It appears we have a consensus for material substance (mass carrying particles) from light.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-autospace:none">
<span style="color:black">If we do have a consensus for building matter from light (photons), then it seems we must better understand the photon, for the photon then becomes the foundation for everything. So that misconceptions in the understanding of the photon,
would propagate to the entire concept.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black">Chip</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> General [mailto:</span><a href="mailto:general-bounces%2Bchipakins" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">general-bounces+chipakins</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">=</span><a href="mailto:gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>John Duffield<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, February 21, 2015 9:46 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] gravitation</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Andrew:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Itâs a mystery to me why people donât know about this kind of stuff. Einstein said
</span><a href="http://www.rain.org/~karpeles/einsteindis.html" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">a field is a state of space</span></a><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">. Susskind said the same in his video
lecture. And there arenât two states of space where an electron is.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">As for the strong force, itâs supposed to be fundamental. So ask yourself this:
<em><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">where does the strong force go in low-energy proton-antiproton annihilation to gamma photons?
</span></em>And ask yourself this: <em><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">what is it that makes the electromagnetic wave propagate at c?</span></em> Alternatively, imagine you can hold this electron in your hands like a bagel.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><image001.png></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Imagine itâs elastic, like the bag model. Try to pull it apart. You will find that you cannot. You canât pull this kiddie
apart either:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><image002.png></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Itâs made of three parts, three partons. See
</span><a href="http://www.ipmu.jp/webfm_send/1053" target="_blank" title="http://www.ipmu.jp/webfm_send/1053"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">http://www.ipmu.jp/webfm_send/1053</span></a><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">
and note page 11 where Witten mentions knot crossings? Trace round it clockwise starting at the bottom left calling out the crossing-over directions:
<em><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">up up down</span></em>. When you do eventually break this thing, you donât see three things flying free.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Regards</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">John D
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;background:whitesmoke">
<b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">
</span><a href="mailto:mules333@gmail.com" target="_blank" title="mules333@gmail.com"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">Andrew Meulenberg</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;background:whitesmoke">
<b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">Sent:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"> Saturday, February 21, 2015 6:41 AM</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;background:whitesmoke">
<b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">To:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">
</span><a href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank" title="general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;background:whitesmoke">
<b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">Subject:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"> [General] gravitation</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Dear John D,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">I wonder why this concept has not been developed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<div style="margin-left:30.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">"The clockwise and anticlockwise twists donât quite cancel. The rubber sheet is subject to a tension that diminishes with distance.
That represents the hydrogen atomâs gravitational field."</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">I came to this conclusion several years ago that gravitation was the long-range, non-torsional, 'residue' of the strong EM fields
composing the net-neutral charge fields of matter. This came from thinking (non-mathematically) about the differences between the E & M forces as distortions of space & how relativity affects them.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">I hope to write-up a paper on strong-gravity (after the conference in August), that describes the nuclear strong force as resulting
from the interacting short-range (multipole) fields of the relativistic electron-positron 'clusters' (triplets?) called quarks.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Andrew</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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