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<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000">
<DIV>Chip:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I’d like to back up what Martin’s saying. Take a look at Einstein’s <A
href="https://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/E_mc2/www/">E=mc² paper</A><FONT
face=Calibri><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> and note the last
line:</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><FONT
face="Times New Roman"><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><EM>“If the theory
corresponds to the facts, radiation conveys inertia between the emitting and
absorbing bodies.” </EM></FONT></FONT> </FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The photon conveys inertia, such that the radiating body loses mass, and
the absorbing body gains it. Hence the photon has a non-zero “inertial mass”.
This is a somewhat archaic term, in that mass nowadays tends to mean “rest
mass”. That doesn’t apply to the photon, because it’s moving at c. But inertia
does. Of course, you can’t make a photon speed up or slow down, so you might
think the photon doesn’t exhibit inertia at all. But take a look at Compton
scattering: </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><IMG title=compton
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border=0 alt=compton src="cid:64A5B63377984520A59B3B007E4E0CBF@HPlaptop"
width=339 height=261></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The photon isn’t slowed down, but it is decelerated in the vector sense. It
changes direction as it loses energy. In similar vein one component of the
circulating photon that is the electron changes direction as it gains energy,
and as a result, the electron <EM>moves</EM>. Broadly speaking, photon momentum
is a measure of resistance to change-in-motion for a wave moving linearly at c,
while electron mass is a measure of resistance to change-in-motion for a wave
going round and round at c. See <A
href="http://www.tardyon.de/mirror/hooft/hooft.htm">light is heavy</A> and
think of the electron as “a photon in a box of its own making”.
Electron-positron annihilation is like opening one box with another, whereupon
each is a radiating body losing mass. <EM>All of it.</EM> And then it isn’t
there any more. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Regards</DIV>
<DIV>John D</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000"></DIV>
<DIV
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<DIV><FONT size=3 face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3 face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3 face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=chipakins@gmail.com
href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com">Chip Akins</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Monday, February 23, 2015 10:19 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">'Nature of Light and
Particles - General Discussion'</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [General] gravitation</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style='FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV class=WordSection1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Hi Martin<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p><FONT
face=Calibri></FONT></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">I am aware of the mass
considerations of photons, the effect that gravity has on them, and the photon
in a box thought experiment. They (photons) do have these properties, but
they do not exhibit inertial mass as particles do. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p><FONT
face=Calibri></FONT></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Chip<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p><FONT
face=Calibri></FONT></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-TOP: #e1e1e1 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'> General
[mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Mark, Martin van der<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, February 23,
2015 3:24 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Nature of Light and Particles - General
Discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [General]
gravitation<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p><FONT face=Calibri></FONT></o:p> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d'>Chip,
take a deep breath.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d'>A
photon has a mass. Light is heavy. Energy is exactly the same thing as mass, the
units differ by c^2, that is all. E=mc^2 is NOT, I say NOT describing a reaction
where energy is converted into mass or vice versa. In the famous Eddington
experiment, light from a star is GRAVITATIONALLY deflected by the sun (and the
sun is pulled aside by the photon, a very, very tiny little
bit)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d'>This
is really how it is.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d'>Photons
sometimes are said to have no REST mass. But the buggers just cannot sit still,
now can they? It is a rather loose and confusing statement that is only true in
some unphysical limit.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d'>But
photons can be put in a box, and then put on a scale to weigh them:
m=hf/c^2<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d'><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d'>Really,
I am not pulling your leg, I just want to spare you a lot of waist of energy… eh
mass? ;-)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d'><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=DE
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'>Dr. Martin
B. van der Mark</SPAN><SPAN lang=DE style="COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'>Principal
Scientist, Minimally Invasive Healthcare</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'>Philips
Research Europe - Eindhoven</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'>High Tech
Campus, Building 34 (WB2.025)</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'>Prof.
Holstlaan 4</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'>5656
AE Eindhoven, The Netherlands</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'>Tel: +31
40 2747548</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d'><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d'><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif'>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif'> General [<A
href="mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Chip Akins<BR><B>Sent:</B> maandag 23 februari 2015
15:09<BR><B>To:</B> 'Nature of Light and Particles - General
Discussion'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [General]
gravitation<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Hi Stephen<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Thank you for the critique.
I really appreciate the belief aspect which can cause us to stray from science.
I think that most of us are looking at the current understanding and asking if
it is valid, probably for a variety of reasons. Searching for answers and
probing a wider range of possibilities, rather than just accepting whatever the
current general set of beliefs are, is this also not
science?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Actually, I am quite satisfied to
accept the full answers wherever they lead us.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">The requirement to conserve energy
is not violated by my proposal, Photons are absorbed whenever they are incident
upon an acceptable absorber. Maybe it depends on the definition of
“absorber”. In my opinion it is entirely acceptable to space to be the
destination for a photon. And yes, I feel the “edge” of space is “curved” which
preserves the conservation of energy.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">When a theory does not seem to
adequately explain the observable universe, it seems to be appropriate to
question that theory.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">For several reasons, some of which
are touched on below, I feel there may well be another solution which provides
for the observations of experiment.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">One thing that seems to bother me,
is when we find infinities in our theories. It does not seem to be an
infinity paranoia, but rather a tendency to question the validity of the
argument which brought us to adopt the infinite solution, if another solution
exists. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">OK, perhaps “infinity paranoia” is
an appropriate description.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">If matter is made from light, most
of the basic principles of relativity would be the natural result. Our
observations would hold that the physical laws do not change across different
reference frames, that the speed of light will be measured as a constant, and
that matter cannot travel at the speed of light.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">The following thoughts are based
upon the concept that matter is made from light, particles are made from
photons.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Our measurement of time would then
be based on the frequencies of particles and their resultant interactions in our
inertial frame. In that sense the photon would be the physical generator of
time, or the underlying mechanism which creates time.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Time, as we are able to measure or
define it, for a single photon then becomes a difficult issue to try to
determine, from the “inertial” frame of the photon. The photon has no
“inertial frame” since it has no mass and no therefore no inertia. Yes it
has energy and momentum but that is not the same thing. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Trying to stretch relativity,
which is designed to relate how matter reacts with light, spacetime, and other
matter, and try to apply the same rules of relativity which work for matter, to
the photon, which is the cause of creation for the principle of relativity, and
the foundation and cause of creation for the property of time, may be an
error.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">As an analogy, a photon has no
mass, but creates mass when confined into a particle. So it is not prudent to
try to calculate the mass term for the free photon in the same manner we use for
particles or matter, like E=mc<SUP>2</SUP>. The photon is the reason the term
E=mc<SUP>2</SUP> would work for matter. The photon however, being the
source, which is to say, the cause for the mass term for matter, lies outside
that definition of mass. In this sense it is part of the definition of the
property of mass, and in a similar way, it is part of the definition of the
property of time. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">So, in that sense, the fields and
forces which comprise the photon, cannot be relativistic in the normal sense of
the term. The EM fields are quite naturally propagating at the speed of light,
but they create the property of relativity due to their specific interactions
with space and their natural reactions within particles.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Returning to the view that EM
fields, with their inherent properties, make up photons and all particles,
create inertial mass, create the circumstances for “time” as we know it, and
create the principle of relativity, we must then conclude that relativistic
treatment of these waves is entirely unnecessary, and in fact, an error. Just as
it would be an error to flatly state that the mass of a free photon is m=E/
c<SUP>2</SUP>.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">It is my view that spacetime only
supports, at the most basic level, one form of energy. That energy is always in
the form of EM waves. Likewise I feel the photon is the simplest, most
elemental form of that EM energy. So then, the photon is simply the fields of
the EM waves, with the inherent forces and energy density allowed by the energy
in the photon and spacetime. It follows then that these circumstances engender
the properties of the photon, like speed of propagation, spin angular momentum,
polarization, etc.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">I think we were faced with
problematic behaviors while studying the photon, and reached for, and
misapplied, an apparent “solution”, to “explain” those behaviors. Relativistic
treatment of the photon allowed us to find one “solution” which implies that
emitters and absorbers are identified prior to emission. The vast
implications of that “solution” just simply do not seem to describe our
universe. So yes, I will continue to search for other possible solutions
which can explain experiment. And yes, this search is motivated in part by
belief. But I suspect that is one of the motivations behind almost all
research. The issue becomes, can we change our beliefs, once we discover a
solution which does in fact fit all criteria of the
observable.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'> General [<A
href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Stephen Leary<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, February 23, 2015 4:16
AM<BR><B>To:</B> Nature of Light and Particles - General
Discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [General] gravitation<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Hi Chip, <o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>There is experimental evidence to suggest that the emission
of a photon is dependent on there being a pre-defined absorber. This is pretty
much a requirement to conserve energy as photons would "miss" otherwise and
eventually all energy would be photons and there would be no matter. You seem to
be falling into the trap of only looking at the evidence that supports your
beliefs. That is not science.<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Regards<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Stephen<o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 3:43 PM, Chip Akins <<A
href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com" target=_blank>chipakins@gmail.com</A>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 6pt; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt; BORDER-LEFT: #cccccc 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in">
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">Hi Stephen</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">Thank you for the insight.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">What I am saying however, is that emission of a photon,
may not be dependent on there being a pre-identified absorber. But rather,
that if the local field conditions of the emitter allow emission in a specific
direction, then a photon could be emitted. The local field herein would be
defined as the area around the emitter wherein the fields from absorbers are
still strong enough to be even slightly sensed by the
emitter.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">Since we do not yet know if there is an “edge” to the
universe (meaning an “edge” of space-time), nor do we know the nature of such
an “edge” should it exist. It may not add clarity to our perceptions to try to
contemplate the possible actions of photons in that location. But my feeling
is that, if we envision an edge exists, the void beyond would present no
fields to an adjacent particle sufficiently close to that edge, and therefore
no condition for emission would be presented.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">What I am having some trouble digesting is the concept
that, regardless of distance or time, an emitter and absorber are
pre-identified prior to photon “exchange”. I understand the concept, but
the implications do not seem to be a description of our universe.
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">For, if every photon in flight, at this instant, had
identified its specific absorber prior to or at emission, then the exact
location of all absorbers, the future position of every particle or atom,
meaning our exact fate, was known and established billions of years
ago.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">Is there another way to look at long distance photon
“exchange” which does not present this problem?</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">Chip</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'> General
[mailto:</SPAN><A href="mailto:general-bounces%2Bchipakins"
target=_blank><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'>general-bounces+chipakins</SPAN></A><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'>=</SPAN><A
href="mailto:gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target=_blank><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'>gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</SPAN></A><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'>] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Stephen Leary<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, February 22, 2015 2:30
AM</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><BR><B>To:</B> Nature of Light and Particles - General
Discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [General]
gravitation<o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"> <o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto">Hi Chip,
<o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto">I request you
add the following question to your thinking and see how it fits in. Consider
matter at the "edge" of the universe (by that i mean that there is no matter
beyond and make that explicit assumption). Is that matter allowed/able to emit
photons in any direction regardless of whether they are ever
absorbed?<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto">IMHO they cannot
do this. Similarly for long distance photons I don't see the issue. It just
reduces the likelyhood of interaction. <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto">Regards<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto">Stephen<o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"> <o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto">On Sat, Feb 21,
2015 at 6:29 PM, Chip Akins <<A href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com"
target=_blank>chipakins@gmail.com</A>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 6pt; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt; BORDER-LEFT: #cccccc 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in">
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">Hi All</SPAN></B><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">Following John Duffield’s comments regarding photon’s
relation to “time” and reading “The Other Meaning of Special Relativity”,
still leaves a few questions (for my feeble mental processes), relating to
correlating theory to experiment.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">My approach has been precisely as described by Robert
Close, regarding the photon constituted mass carrying particles, clearly
displaying relativistic properties naturally, due to their wave (photon)
structure.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">There appears to be a significant amount of evidence
supporting such an approach.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">Underlying that approach, and as an implication of the
results, is the suggestion that there is (even if we cannot detect it) a
reference rest frame in space. Close therefore remarks,
<I>“</I></SPAN><I>What has not been generally recognized is that special
relativity is a consequence of the wave nature of matter and is entirely
consistent with classical notions of absolute space and time.<SPAN
style="COLOR: black">”</SPAN></I><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><I><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN></I><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">So, like John D., I am still looking for, and willing
to exhaustively pursue, any possible explanations for experiment, which are
built on such an approach, before abandoning such a robust, simple, and
elegant, causal approach. But I cannot ignore the compelling arguments
from John Williamson, Martin van der Mark, Stephen Leary. So at this time
certain issues remain (for me) unresolved.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">While our discussions of the photon and possible
various relativistic interpretations, to describe experiment, are quite
stimulating and thought provoking. In my current view, the idea that a
photon can feel its entire future, at one point in spacetime, raises more
problems than it solves. While the “one point in spacetime” approach, may in
fact turn out to be the actual nature of physics, I feel it is required to
look for other explanations, and there are many possibilities we can
explore, before accepting any answer to best describe
experiment.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">Hi Stephen</SPAN></B><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">Thank you for the analogy. </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">Of course to test any idea, we need to look at the full
range of applications of the idea.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="TEXT-AUTOSPACE: ; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">I can understand the photon exchange, hinted by your
analogy, for a distance which is easily within the field of the emitters and
absorbers, or a distance where the mutual field strength is sufficiently
above the “background” noise floor. </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="TEXT-AUTOSPACE: ; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">However for me it does not seem to hold for large
distances. In other words, I feel that for close range photon
exchange, the fields are sufficiently strong to have an influence on such
photon exchange. Tony Fleming has created a model for the hydrogen
atom using a variation of such an approach, which is very accurate at
predicting the properties of this atom. “<U>Electromagnetic Self-Field
Theory and Its Application to the Hydrogen Atom</U>” Anthony Fleming
2005.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="TEXT-AUTOSPACE: ; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="TEXT-AUTOSPACE: ; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">However for very large distances, it seems to me that
photon “exchange” is not a pre-required condition, and that photon emission
is quite acceptable even if the eventual absorber is not already known at
emission. I do not yet feel, that a photon can only exist, if the absorber
is already “known” by the photon.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="TEXT-AUTOSPACE: ; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="TEXT-AUTOSPACE: ; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">Hi John D. </SPAN></B><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="TEXT-AUTOSPACE: ; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="TEXT-AUTOSPACE: ; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">Thank you for the references to photon models.
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="TEXT-AUTOSPACE: ; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="TEXT-AUTOSPACE: ; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">Having toyed with certain photon models, the one
described by Drozdov and Stahlhofen has been very close to my preferred
model. But it leaves questions raised by some experimental observation
unanswered. However I have not looked closely at the full set of
implications regarding the possibility that a viable photon model may also
exist, encompassing multiples of its wavelength. To explore, we might be
able to model the emission duration for certain events, and compare that
estimated duration to the emitted photon wavelength. Meanwhile, I will
run some math to explore further.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="TEXT-AUTOSPACE: ; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="TEXT-AUTOSPACE: ; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">Hi Chandra</SPAN></B><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="TEXT-AUTOSPACE: ; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="TEXT-AUTOSPACE: ; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">I agree with your approach and comments regarding our
quest.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="TEXT-AUTOSPACE: ; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="TEXT-AUTOSPACE: ; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">And referring directly to…</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><I><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">“If we do not explicitly frame our questions to
access reality of nature; we will never find
it!”</SPAN></I></B><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">The group has begun addressing specific issues, from
different viewpoints, which enhance our individual, and therefore
collective, ability to look more clearly at the problems, and the
implications of different views, and therefore review the possibilities in a
more complete manner.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Thank you for your tremendous assistance and
contribution to this process.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">All</SPAN></B><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="TEXT-AUTOSPACE: ; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="TEXT-AUTOSPACE: ; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">It appears we have a consensus for material substance
(mass carrying particles) from light.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="TEXT-AUTOSPACE: ; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">If we do have a consensus for building matter from
light (photons), then it seems we must better understand the photon, for the
photon then becomes the foundation for everything. So that misconceptions in
the understanding of the photon, would propagate to the entire
concept.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">Chip</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-TOP: #e1e1e1 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in">
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'> General
[mailto:</SPAN><A href="mailto:general-bounces%2Bchipakins"
target=_blank><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'>general-bounces+chipakins</SPAN></A><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'>=</SPAN><A
href="mailto:gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target=_blank><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'>gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</SPAN></A><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'>] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>John Duffield<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, February 21, 2015 9:46
AM<BR><B>To:</B> Nature of Light and Particles - General
Discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [General]
gravitation</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"> <o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Andrew:</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>It’s a mystery to me
why people don’t know about this kind of stuff. Einstein said </SPAN><A
href="http://www.rain.org/~karpeles/einsteindis.html" target=_blank><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'>a field is a state of
space</SPAN></A><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>. Susskind said the
same in his video lecture. And there aren’t two states of space where an
electron is.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>As for the strong
force, it’s supposed to be fundamental. So ask yourself this: <EM><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'>where does the strong force go in
low-energy proton-antiproton annihilation to gamma photons? </SPAN></EM>And
ask yourself this: <EM><SPAN style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'>what
is it that makes the electromagnetic wave propagate at c?</SPAN></EM>
Alternatively, imagine you can hold this electron in your hands like a
bagel. </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'><IMG
id=Picture_x0020_1 border=0 alt=toroidalphotonsmall
src="cid:2501B172D129465F91D9DDC97C5627B5@HPlaptop" width=265
height=192></SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Imagine it’s
elastic, like the bag model. Try to pull it apart. You will find that you
cannot. You can’t pull this kiddie apart either:</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'><IMG
id=Picture_x0020_2 border=0 alt=trefoil
src="cid:2AFC01C97EA446BAAEF3CE23DF5301ED@HPlaptop" width=229
height=229></SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>It’s made of three
parts, three partons. See </SPAN><A title=http://www.ipmu.jp/webfm_send/1053
href="http://www.ipmu.jp/webfm_send/1053" target=_blank><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'>http://www.ipmu.jp/webfm_send/1053</SPAN></A><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> and note page 11
where Witten mentions knot crossings? Trace round it clockwise starting at
the bottom left calling out the crossing-over directions: <EM><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'>up up down</SPAN></EM>. When you
do eventually break this thing, you don’t see three things flying
free. </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Regards</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>John D
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>
</SPAN><A title=mules333@gmail.com href="mailto:mules333@gmail.com"
target=_blank><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif'>Andrew
Meulenberg</SPAN></A><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>
Saturday, February 21, 2015 6:41 AM</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>
</SPAN><A title=general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target=_blank><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif'>Nature of Light
and Particles - General Discussion</SPAN></A><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>
[General] gravitation</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Dear John
D,</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>I wonder why this
concept has not been developed?</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-LEFT: 30pt">
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>"The clockwise and
anticlockwise twists don’t quite cancel. The rubber sheet is subject to a
tension that diminishes with distance. That represents the hydrogen atom’s
gravitational field."</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>I came to this
conclusion several years ago that gravitation was the long-range,
non-torsional, 'residue' of the strong EM fields composing the net-neutral
charge fields of matter. This came from thinking (non-mathematically) about
the differences between the E & M forces as distortions of space &
how relativity affects them.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>I hope to write-up a
paper on strong-gravity (after the conference in August), that describes the
nuclear strong force as resulting from the interacting short-range
(multipole) fields of the relativistic electron-positron 'clusters'
(triplets?) called quarks.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Andrew</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
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style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>
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<P class=MsoNormal
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<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>-- <o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Stephen Leary<o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P>
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