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<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000">
<DIV>Chip:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>It gets even more interesting than that. See <A
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Firewall_(physics)&oldid=587309921">an
old version of the Wikipedia Firewall article</A>. See the mention of
Winterberg? That’s Friedwardt Winterberg. You know how Einstein said <A
href="http://einsteinpapers.press.princeton.edu/vol7-trans/156?highlightText=%22speed%20of%20light%22">light
curves because the speed of light is spatially variable</A>, and I said the
reducing speed of light bleeds internal kinetic out of the electron into
macroscopic kinetic energy? </DIV>
<DIV><IMG title=electronfall
style="BORDER-TOP: 0px; BORDER-RIGHT: 0px; BACKGROUND-IMAGE: none; BORDER-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; BORDER-LEFT: 0px; DISPLAY: inline; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"
border=0 alt=electronfall src="cid:52B1267ED0F44AAFB2AC3D2F806E80AD@HPlaptop"
width=247 height=197></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Well, guess what? It can’t keep doing this forever. There comes a point
when the electron’s falling speed would be greater than the local coordinate
speed of light. And the electron is made out of light. It can’t go faster than
light, because it<EM> is</EM> light. But falling bodies keep on accelerating,
because the speed of light is spatially variable. So something’s got to give.
And there’s only one thing that <EM>can</EM> give. The electron. See Friedwardt
Winterberg’s paper attached. It’s about gamma ray bursters. If you fell into a
black hole, you’d never make it to the event horizon. IMHO all the stuff you
hear about the <A
href="http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19225751.200-the-elephant-and-the-event-horizon.html">elephant
being in two places at once</A> is a load of old cobblers. And as for the
information paradox and the AMPS firewall and Hawking radiation, I couldn’t
possibly comment. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Regards</DIV>
<DIV>John</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000"></DIV>
<DIV
style='FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt tahoma">
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=chipakins@gmail.com
href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com">Chip Akins</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, February 24, 2015 1:57 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">'Nature of Light and
Particles - General Discussion'</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [General] Black holes</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style='FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV class=WordSection1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Hi John D<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Very interesting thought about
gravity not existing in any space where light cannot be
slowed.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Regarding… “</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>The reason light doesn’t
get out of the black hole isn’t because it’s redshifted to oblivion. But because
it’s <EM><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'>stopped</SPAN></EM>.”<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>It seems redshifted to
oblivion and stopped, are the same thing. (With one slight exception, the energy
of the photon remains, so perhaps oblivion is not the correct
word.)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Chip</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-TOP: #e1e1e1 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'> General
[mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>John Duffield<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, February 24, 2015
7:40 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Nature of Light and Particles - General
Discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [General] Black
holes<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Martin/John/All:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>This thing about space
falling inward is called the <A
href="http://jila.colorado.edu/~ajsh/insidebh/waterfall.html">waterfall
analogy</A>. <EM><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'>Spit</SPAN></EM>. It is popscience
cargo-cult garbage that bears no relation to Einstein’s general relativity or
hard scientific evidence. Note the energy-pressure diagonal in the <A
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress%E2%80%93energy_tensor">stress-energy-momentum
tensor</A>? A gravitational field is akin to an “energy-pressure gradient in
space” that alters the motion of light and matter through space. But it does not
make space move inwards. We do <EM><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'>not</SPAN></EM> live in some
Chicken-Little world. The sky is <EM><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'>not</SPAN></EM> falling in. Like
Einstein said, light curves because the speed of light is spatially variable.
And see the attached, where you can read Irwin Shapiro saying <EM><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'>the speed of a light wave depends on
the strength of the gravitational potential</SPAN></EM>. Hence optical clocks go
slower when they’re lower. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>John: I’ve talked to
Crothers, it was not productive. Particularly since I’m happy that black holes
exist. There is something very small, very black, and very very massive in the
centre of our galaxy: <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'><IMG id=_x0000_i1025
border=0 alt=blackhole_smaller_300x225
src="cid:633482FEA9BD48869920359BB2CAA2D4@HPlaptop" width=300
height=225><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>But see <A
href="http://mathpages.com/rr/s7-02/7-02.htm">The Formation and Growth of Black
Holes</A> where Kevin Brown refers to the frozen-star interpretation. He doesn’t
like it, but I think it’s correct. At the event horizon, the “coordinate” speed
of light is zero. The reason light doesn’t get out of the black hole isn’t
because it’s redshifted to oblivion. But because it’s <EM><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'>stopped</SPAN></EM>. And it can’t go
slower than stopped. And since gravity is only there when the speed of light is
spatially variable, there’s no more gravity. And no more collapse. And no black
hole singularity. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Martin: in our universe
light isn’t stopped. But maybe 13.8 billion years ago, it was. Note that if the
early universe was a “frozen star” universe, inflation is somewhat superfluous.
By the way, I thought <A
href="http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/2014/12/01/physicist-paul-steinhardt-slams-inflation-cosmic-theory-he-helped-conceive/">this</A>
was a good read. And the <A
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravastar">gravastar</A> catches my eye
because of the <EM><SPAN style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'>void in the
fabric of space and time</SPAN></EM>. Maybe 13.8 billion years ago, the whole
universe was like that.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Regards<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>John
D<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <A
title=martin.van.der.mark@philips.com
href="mailto:martin.van.der.mark@philips.com">Mark, Martin van der</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> Monday,
February 23, 2015 10:52 PM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <A
title=general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">Nature of Light and
Particles - General Discussion</A> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> Re:
[General] the edge of the universe<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d'>Dear
John,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d'>That
is a fair question, I am a bit behind reading al the responses from people and
think John has said something about it in the mean time.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d'>In
any case I will come back to this later. There is more about blackholes that is
not understood at al….<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d'>Erik
Verlinde was talking about SPACE falling (not tables, light or grand pianos)
into the hole inside the horizon! He may have made a slip of the tongue, and it
would certainly imply that it would be a lot harder to get
out…<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d'>I
will first think some more. And look a few things up.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d'>Note
that in Newtonian gravitation, a blackhole’s event horizon is that position from
where you cannot escape to infinity. A little deeper in the hole you can still
get out, but you must seriously hope for some Morons (or what are these dumb
creatures called again? Ah Klingon!) to fly by and toss you a
line.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d'>Must
look up the general relativity event horizon…<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d'>Martin<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d'><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=DE
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'>Dr. Martin
B. van der Mark</SPAN><SPAN lang=DE style="COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'>Principal
Scientist, Minimally Invasive Healthcare</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'>Philips
Research Europe - Eindhoven</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'>High Tech
Campus, Building 34 (WB2.025)</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'>Prof.
Holstlaan 4</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'>5656
AE Eindhoven, The Netherlands</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'>Tel: +31
40 2747548</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d'><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d'><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> General
[<A
href="mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>John Duffield<BR><B>Sent:</B> maandag 23 februari 2015
12:34<BR><B>To:</B> Nature of Light and Particles - General
Discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [General] the edge of the
universe<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Martin:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>I tend to draw parallels
between the universe and a black hole, but in my humble opinion there are some
issues with the way black holes are usually described. I like to think that this
little gedankenexperiment helps to tease it out: <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">You're standing on a gedanken
planet holding a laser pointer straight up. The light doesn't curve round, or
slow down as it ascends, or fall down. It goes straight up. Now I wave my magic
wand and make the planet denser and more massive. The light still doesn't curve
round, or slow down as it ascends, or fall down. I make the planet even denser
and more massive. The light <I>still</I> doesn't curve round, or slow down as it
ascends, or fall down. I make the planet <I>even</I> denser and more massive,
and take it to the limit such that it's a black hole. At no point did the light
ever curve round, or slow down as it ascends, or fall down. So <I>why doesn't
the light get out?</I></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Regards<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>John
D<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <A
title=martin.van.der.mark@philips.com
href="mailto:martin.van.der.mark@philips.com">Mark, Martin van der</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> Sunday,
February 22, 2015 4:36 PM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <A
title=general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">Nature of Light and
Particles - General Discussion</A> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> Re:
[General] the edge of the universe<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d'>Guys,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d'>The
universe has an edge in some sense, it is in fact a black hole, nothing can
escape (even by definition). It tries to expand, light it going outwards but is
held back just as in a “common” black hole.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d'>It is
impossible to reach the edge. But would you manage to get there somehow, the new
edge has shifted a bit further…it is our good old horizon
again!<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d'>Cheers,
Martin<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d'><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=DE
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'>Dr. Martin
B. van der Mark</SPAN><SPAN lang=DE style="COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'>Principal
Scientist, Minimally Invasive Healthcare</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'>Philips
Research Europe - Eindhoven</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'>High Tech
Campus, Building 34 (WB2.025)</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'>Prof.
Holstlaan 4</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'>5656
AE Eindhoven, The Netherlands</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'>Tel: +31
40 2747548</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d'><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d'><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> General
[<A
href="mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>John Duffield<BR><B>Sent:</B> zondag 22 februari 2015
17:29<BR><B>To:</B> 'Nature of Light and Particles - General
Discussion'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [General] the edge of the
universe<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Chip:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Now you mention it, I
think the universe has to have some kind of edge. I wrote something speculative
about it <A
title=http://bogpaper.com/science-sundays-with-john-duffield-edge-of-the-universe/
href="http://bogpaper.com/science-sundays-with-john-duffield-edge-of-the-universe/">here</A>.
WMAP says the universe is flat, <A href="http://arxiv.org/abs/1303.5086">Planck
has found no evidence of any curvature or any toroidal topology</A> , and IMHO
an infinite universe can not be an expanding universe, because then the
energy-pressure would be counterbalanced at all locations. If it isn’t curved
round on itself and if it doesn’t go on forever, there’s not a lot of options
left: it has to have some kind of edge. Such that there is no space beyond this
edge, there <EM><SPAN style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'>is</SPAN></EM>
no beyond it. As for what it’s like, I don’t know. Maybe the universe is some
kind of hall-of-mirrors thing, like mentioned <A
title=http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/space/05/24/universe.wide/
href="http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/space/05/24/universe.wide/">here</A>. Maybe
there’s some kind of event horizon, maybe it’s none of the above, I don’t know.
But what I do know is this: cosmologists use the surface of a sphere as an
example of something without an edge, even though there is no evidence
whatsoever of any higher dimensionality. It occurs to me that they’re like the
old flat-Earth guys in reverse. It is alleged that in ancient times people could
not conceive of a world without an edge. Nowadays cosmologists can not conceive
of a world <EM><SPAN style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'>with</SPAN></EM>
an edge. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Regards<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>John
D<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <A
title=chipakins@gmail.com href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com">Chip Akins</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> Sunday,
February 22, 2015 3:43 PM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <A
title=general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">'Nature of Light and
Particles - General Discussion'</A> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> Re:
[General] gravitation<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Hi Stephen<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Thank you for the
insight.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">What I am saying however, is that
emission of a photon, may not be dependent on there being a pre-identified
absorber. But rather, that if the local field conditions of the emitter allow
emission in a specific direction, then a photon could be emitted. The local
field herein would be defined as the area around the emitter wherein the fields
from absorbers are still strong enough to be even slightly sensed by the
emitter.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Since we do not yet know if there
is an “edge” to the universe (meaning an “edge” of space-time), nor do we know
the nature of such an “edge” should it exist. It may not add clarity to our
perceptions to try to contemplate the possible actions of photons in that
location. But my feeling is that, if we envision an edge exists, the void beyond
would present no fields to an adjacent particle sufficiently close to that edge,
and therefore no condition for emission would be
presented.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">What I am having some trouble
digesting is the concept that, regardless of distance or time, an emitter and
absorber are pre-identified prior to photon “exchange”. I understand the
concept, but the implications do not seem to be a description of our universe.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">For, if every photon in flight, at
this instant, had identified its specific absorber prior to or at emission, then
the exact location of all absorbers, the future position of every particle or
atom, meaning our exact fate, was known and established billions of years
ago.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Is there another way to look at
long distance photon “exchange” which does not present this
problem?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Chip<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>
General [<A
href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Stephen Leary<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, February 22, 2015 2:30
AM<BR><B>To:</B> Nature of Light and Particles - General
Discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [General] gravitation<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Hi Chip, <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">I request you add the following
question to your thinking and see how it fits in. Consider matter at the "edge"
of the universe (by that i mean that there is no matter beyond and make that
explicit assumption). Is that matter allowed/able to emit photons in any
direction regardless of whether they are ever
absorbed?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">IMHO they cannot do this.
Similarly for long distance photons I don't see the issue. It just reduces the
likelyhood of interaction. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">Regards<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">Stephen<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 6:29 PM,
Chip Akins <<A href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com"
target=_blank>chipakins@gmail.com</A>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 6pt; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt; BORDER-LEFT: #cccccc 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in">
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">Hi All</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">Following John Duffield’s comments regarding photon’s
relation to “time” and reading “The Other Meaning of Special Relativity”,
still leaves a few questions (for my feeble mental processes), relating to
correlating theory to experiment.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">My approach has been precisely as described by Robert
Close, regarding the photon constituted mass carrying particles, clearly
displaying relativistic properties naturally, due to their wave (photon)
structure.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">There appears to be a significant amount of evidence
supporting such an approach.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">Underlying that approach, and as an implication of the
results, is the suggestion that there is (even if we cannot detect it) a
reference rest frame in space. Close therefore remarks, <I>“What has not been
generally recognized is that special relativity is a consequence of the wave
nature of matter and is entirely consistent with classical notions of absolute
space and time.”</I><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><I><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN></I><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">So, like John D., I am still looking for, and willing to
exhaustively pursue, any possible explanations for experiment, which are built
on such an approach, before abandoning such a robust, simple, and elegant,
causal approach. But I cannot ignore the compelling arguments from John
Williamson, Martin van der Mark, Stephen Leary. So at this time certain issues
remain (for me) unresolved.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">While our discussions of the photon and possible various
relativistic interpretations, to describe experiment, are quite stimulating
and thought provoking. In my current view, the idea that a photon can
feel its entire future, at one point in spacetime, raises more problems than
it solves. While the “one point in spacetime” approach, may in fact turn out
to be the actual nature of physics, I feel it is required to look for other
explanations, and there are many possibilities we can explore, before
accepting any answer to best describe experiment.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">Hi Stephen</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">Thank you for the analogy. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">Of course to test any idea, we need to look at the full
range of applications of the idea.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">I can understand the photon exchange, hinted by your
analogy, for a distance which is easily within the field of the emitters and
absorbers, or a distance where the mutual field strength is sufficiently above
the “background” noise floor. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">However for me it does not seem to hold for large
distances. In other words, I feel that for close range photon exchange,
the fields are sufficiently strong to have an influence on such photon
exchange. Tony Fleming has created a model for the hydrogen atom using a
variation of such an approach, which is very accurate at predicting the
properties of this atom. “<U>Electromagnetic Self-Field Theory and Its
Application to the Hydrogen Atom</U>” Anthony Fleming
2005.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">However for very large distances, it seems to me that
photon “exchange” is not a pre-required condition, and that photon emission is
quite acceptable even if the eventual absorber is not already known at
emission. I do not yet feel, that a photon can only exist, if the absorber is
already “known” by the photon.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">Hi John D. </SPAN></B><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">Thank you for the references to photon models.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">Having toyed with certain photon models, the one
described by Drozdov and Stahlhofen has been very close to my preferred
model. But it leaves questions raised by some experimental observation
unanswered. However I have not looked closely at the full set of
implications regarding the possibility that a viable photon model may also
exist, encompassing multiples of its wavelength. To explore, we might be able
to model the emission duration for certain events, and compare that estimated
duration to the emitted photon wavelength. Meanwhile, I will run some
math to explore further.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">Hi Chandra</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">I agree with your approach and comments regarding our
quest.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">And referring directly to…<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><I><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black">“If we do not explicitly frame our
questions to access reality of nature; we will never find
it!”</SPAN></I></B><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black"> </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black">The group has begun addressing specific
issues, from different viewpoints, which enhance our individual, and therefore
collective, ability to look more clearly at the problems, and the implications
of different views, and therefore review the possibilities in a more complete
manner.</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black"> </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black">Thank you for your tremendous assistance
and contribution to this process.</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black"> </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black">All</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">It appears we have a consensus for material substance
(mass carrying particles) from light.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">If we do have a consensus for building matter from light
(photons), then it seems we must better understand the photon, for the photon
then becomes the foundation for everything. So that misconceptions in the
understanding of the photon, would propagate to the entire
concept.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">Chip<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-TOP: #e1e1e1 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in">
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>
General [mailto:<A href="mailto:general-bounces%2Bchipakins"
target=_blank>general-bounces+chipakins</A>=<A
href="mailto:gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target=_blank>gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</A>] <B>On Behalf
Of </B>John Duffield<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, February 21, 2015 9:46
AM<BR><B>To:</B> Nature of Light and Particles - General
Discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [General] gravitation</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Andrew:</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>It’s a mystery to me
why people don’t know about this kind of stuff. Einstein said </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><A href="http://www.rain.org/~karpeles/einsteindis.html"
target=_blank><SPAN style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'>a field is a
state of space</SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>. Susskind said the
same in his video lecture. And there aren’t two states of space where an
electron is.</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>As for the strong
force, it’s supposed to be fundamental. So ask yourself this: <EM><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'>where does the strong force go in
low-energy proton-antiproton annihilation to gamma photons? </SPAN></EM>And
ask yourself this: <EM><SPAN style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'>what is
it that makes the electromagnetic wave propagate at c?</SPAN></EM>
Alternatively, imagine you can hold this electron in your hands like a bagel.
</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'><IMG id=_x0000_i1026
border=0 alt=toroidalphotonsmall
src="cid:70BA8F72A6BD4465BBADC1D1DB4A7AE7@HPlaptop" width=265
height=192></SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Imagine it’s elastic,
like the bag model. Try to pull it apart. You will find that you cannot. You
can’t pull this kiddie apart either:</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'><IMG id=_x0000_i1027
border=0 alt=trefoil src="cid:9E6D152DC29243258F8212C08AD5C12B@HPlaptop"
width=229 height=229></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>It’s made of three
parts, three partons. See </SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><A
title=http://www.ipmu.jp/webfm_send/1053
href="http://www.ipmu.jp/webfm_send/1053" target=_blank><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'>http://www.ipmu.jp/webfm_send/1053</SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> and note page 11
where Witten mentions knot crossings? Trace round it clockwise starting at the
bottom left calling out the crossing-over directions: <EM><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'>up up down</SPAN></EM>. When you do
eventually break this thing, you don’t see three things flying free.
</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Regards</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>John D </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>
</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><A title=mules333@gmail.com
href="mailto:mules333@gmail.com" target=_blank><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif'>Andrew
Meulenberg</SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>
</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>
Saturday, February 21, 2015 6:41 AM</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>
</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><A
title=general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target=_blank><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif'>Nature of Light and
Particles - General Discussion</SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>
</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>
[General] gravitation</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Dear John
D,</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>I wonder why this
concept has not been developed?</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-LEFT: 30pt">
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>"The clockwise and
anticlockwise twists don’t quite cancel. The rubber sheet is subject to a
tension that diminishes with distance. That represents the hydrogen atom’s
gravitational field."</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>I came to this
conclusion several years ago that gravitation was the long-range,
non-torsional, 'residue' of the strong EM fields composing the net-neutral
charge fields of matter. This came from thinking (non-mathematically) about
the differences between the E & M forces as distortions of space & how
relativity affects them.</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>I hope to write-up a
paper on strong-gravity (after the conference in August), that describes the
nuclear strong force as resulting from the interacting short-range (multipole)
fields of the relativistic electron-positron 'clusters' (triplets?) called
quarks.</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Andrew</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>
<HR align=center SIZE=2 width="100%">
</SPAN></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>_______________________________________________<BR>If
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><BR><BR
clear=all><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">-- <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Stephen
Leary<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>
<HR align=center SIZE=2 width="100%">
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