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<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000">
<DIV>Martin:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Lack of energy conservation? I’m a bit of a stickler for energy
conservation. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Chip:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Space around the black hole is affected by the mass because like Einstein
said, mass is a measure of energy-content. And because energy is pressure x
volume and because a gravitational field is an energy-pressure gradient in
space. And because space isn’t nothing. It’s kind of like this gin-clear ghostly
elastic, hence there’s a shear-stress term in the stress-energy-momentum
tensor:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> <IMG title=StressEnergyTensor_contravariant_svg
style="BORDER-TOP: 0px; BORDER-RIGHT: 0px; BACKGROUND-IMAGE: none; BORDER-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; BORDER-LEFT: 0px; DISPLAY: inline; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"
border=0 alt=StressEnergyTensor_contravariant_svg
src="cid:CF37FBF2DED84F70A8146CE62EBFABBE@HPlaptop" width=320 height=194></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Imagine space is some big old block of elastic jelly, and you use a
hypodermic needle to inject more jelly into the middle. This pushes out on
the surrounding jelly, creating a pressure gradient in it, such that the speed
of light is spatially variable, and therefore light curves. Only if you keep
<EM>on</EM> injecting jelly, the pressure in the middle goes so high that the
speed of light in the middle is zero. Then you’ve got a black hole. That’s how I
see it anyway. I don’t see that there’s any component faster than c. Check out
<A title=http://www.oocities.org/gssandhu_1943/
href="http://www.oocities.org/gssandhu_1943/">the elastic continuum theory of
nature</A> by G S Sandhu. When a wave moves through space, space waves. These
waves go straight and/or round and round, and that’s just about it. <SPAN
style="COLOR: "><o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Regards</DIV>
<DIV>John D</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000"></DIV>
<DIV
style='FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt tahoma">
<DIV><FONT size=3 face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=chipakins@gmail.com
href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com">Chip Akins</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, February 24, 2015 3:55 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">'Nature of Light and
Particles - General Discussion'</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [General] the edge of the universe</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style='FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV class=WordSection1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Hi Martin and John
D<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">It may be quite enlightening when
we understand better the nature of “black holes” for several obvious
reasons.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Take for example the concept of
gravity as it relates to a black hole. Something is extending beyond the
black hole or we could not feel its gravity. So how is it that space around the
black hole is affected by the mass in the black hole if nothing can travel
faster than the speed of light, and the speed of light is zero at the horizon of
the black hole?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">If, as some have speculated,
gravity is another “shadow” manifestation of the EM fields, or is caused by the
interaction of fields changing permittivity and permeability (the index of
refraction), then there must be a component to those fields which is faster than
c. Perhaps the Coulomb force referenced in the article sent earlier?
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Thoughts?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-TOP: #e1e1e1 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'> General
[mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Mark, Martin van der<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, February 24,
2015 9:20 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Nature of Light and Particles - General
Discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [General] the edge of the
universe<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d'>John,
Chip,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d'>First
Chip: good comment, that is one of the problems I see with John D’s explanation,
lack of energy conservation.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d'>John
surely I know all of that and I am strongly inclined to agree with you on the
explanation of Hawking radiation! Still, it is a blackbody with all of its
Planckian features. But as I said I am still studying the black hole, before
judging too firmly.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d'>Best
martin<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d'><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=DE
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'>Dr. Martin
B. van der Mark</SPAN><SPAN lang=DE style="COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'>Principal
Scientist, Minimally Invasive Healthcare</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'>Philips
Research Europe - Eindhoven</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'>High Tech
Campus, Building 34 (WB2.025)</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'>Prof.
Holstlaan 4</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'>5656
AE Eindhoven, The Netherlands</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'>Tel: +31
40 2747548</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d'><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d'><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif'>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif'> General [<A
href="mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>John Duffield<BR><B>Sent:</B> dinsdag 24 februari 2015
15:01<BR><B>To:</B> Nature of Light and Particles - General
Discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [General] the edge of the
universe<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Martin:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Have you ever read the
“given explanation” of Hawking radiation? We have this mystic pair-production
going on, wherein particles are popping into existence like magic, despite the
near-infinite gravitation time dilation and the near-zero coordinate speed of
light. And despite the fact that virtual particles are field quanta rather than
short-lived real particles. (The electron and the proton in the hydrogen atom
are not spitting photons at one another, their fields interact). Then one of
these particles conveniently falls into the black hole while the other one
escapes. Since it’s Hawking radiation the escapee is a photon... that was
produced via pair production. And the particle that fell into the black hole is
a negative-energy particle. Have you seen any negative-energy particles
recently? <EM><SPAN style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'>Didn’t think
so.</SPAN></EM> It’s a fairy tale. A myth. A hypothesis that has remained
unproven for so long that everybody takes it for granted.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Regards<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>John<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <A
title=martin.van.der.mark@philips.com
href="mailto:martin.van.der.mark@philips.com">Mark, Martin van der</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> Monday,
February 23, 2015 11:14 PM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <A
title=general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">Nature of Light and
Particles - General Discussion</A> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> Re:
[General] the edge of the universe<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d'>Dear
all<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d'>John’s
explanation has a lot of good stuff in it, I will look up a few things, and Viv
can probably add to it.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d'>I
would like to add now that we also must not forget that black holes actually
radiate thermal (electromagnetic!) radiation depending on their size, the
smaller the hotter, the more they radiate, the sooner they evaporate!!!!!!
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d'>Cheers,
Marti n<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d'><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=DE
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'>Dr. Martin
B. van der Mark</SPAN><SPAN lang=DE style="COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'>Principal
Scientist, Minimally Invasive Healthcare</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'>Philips
Research Europe - Eindhoven</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'>High Tech
Campus, Building 34 (WB2.025)</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'>Prof.
Holstlaan 4</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'>5656
AE Eindhoven, The Netherlands</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'>Tel: +31
40 2747548</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d'><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d'><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> General
[<A
href="mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>John Williamson<BR><B>Sent:</B> maandag 23 februari 2015
14:50<BR><B>To:</B> Nature of Light and Particles - General
Discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [General] the edge of the
universe<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Hi John
(D),<BR><BR>What happens depends on the theoretical mantle one chooses to wear
for the argument. I think all our wordy speculations (we call them theories) are
not really worth anything when compared to experiment. Faraday called all theory
"speculation" and he was right.<BR><BR>John D your scenario is lacking in the
consideration of one crucial experimental fact. Light is, experimentally,
red-shifted as it works against the action of, even a modest, a gravitational
potential. This is the argument in Martin's paper "light is heavy", amongst
other places, but is easy to measure just by looking at light from and to
space.<BR><BR>This is not my field but ,as Martin and I would day, unhindered by
any knowledge (ongehindered door enige kennis) I will have a go at elucidating
this from several different perspectives ..<BR><BR>As I see it, the light does
not "slow down" but it does redshift, getting redder and redder as it goes up.
That wonderful magic wand of yours (can I have one?) simply makes the photons
redshift faster.<BR><BR>Black hole-ness then occurs when the photon redshifts
all the way down to zero frequency. At this point it has used up all its initial
(positive) energy in trying to get out of the (negative gravitational potential
energy of the ) black hole.<BR><BR>At this point I have a problem with most
other peoples view of a black hole (including, as far as I understand it, some
famous scientists portrayed in Oscar winning films) in that , manifestly in this
picture, more energetic (blue) light will reach this limit at a different height
(and for different gravitational potentials). So there is no particular "event
horizon". In this picture, something which is a "black hole" for radio is not so
for a visible photon. This is a semi-classical picture of a black hole. It is
the way I look at it at the moment, but am very open to having my mind changed
by a convincing argument to the contrary. Please.<BR><BR>The standard
Schwartzchild theories, it seems to me, envisage a hypothetical massive
lightspeed particle not observed in Nature. I could be wrong here though- that
is just what the maths of the argument looks like to me. The limit is calculated
in classical Newtonian gravity- look it up!. <BR>I would have thought that this
ought to be taken as being a serious problem but it seems not be thought so in
some quarters. There seems to a lot of talk, or talk about talk, but few seem to
look at the actual calculations, and properly consider what they really mean and
what the basis of the whole argument really is. I must admit to finding this
truly astonishing. It does not seem to me to fit properly with the calibre of
some of the people propounding the arguments.<BR><BR>If one goes to general
relativity, which should be better, one runs into further serious problems.
Amongst other things if one does the maths correctly there is really no such
thing as a black hole (see Crothers ... though he has had a lot of trouble
getting his stuff published his maths looks right to me). We should talk to this
guy! The best accepted work seems (to me) to mix Newtonian and Einsteinian ideas
up at different points in the argument. I would really like to see this
discussion go to proper level.<BR><BR>Quantum gravity has the problem that the
gravitons responsible for the interaction should also travel at lightspeed, so
if light cannot get out neither should they.<BR><BR>Coming back to the universe,
the (redshift) limit for the universe as a whole is just the same formula as for
the (standard as-above) black hole boundary. Martin calculated this a long time
ago and it puzzled us for a while, until we realised that that is just about
what is observed. The "edge" of the universe is just the point where the (Hubble
constant redshifted) energy of the light, or any massive light-speed particle,
reaching us just goes to zero. <BR><BR>Ok, that is quite enough pontificating on
my part because one of us, Viv Robinson, knows much more about this than I do.
He has written a brilliant paper on it. In doing so he has had to fight much
obfuscating nonsense widespread in the media (both in "common knowledge, on the
internet, in science fiction, and even in much of the peer-reviewed press -not
to mention in such authoratitive sources as hollywood!). One of his ideas
is (correct me if I am simplifying this Viv), no matter where light starts from
- in an infinite uniform universe it still has to negotiate a gravitational
potential which it must climb out of. For what it is worth I think this is
fundamentally correct. It is worth noting that, despite the intrinsic value of
his ideas, he has had loads of trouble getting this published as well ... but it
is out (thank goodness). This is a task quite as hard as Andrew's from his
perspective. I think this problem has been experienced by several of us- I have
submitted a dozen papers in the last few years, none of which have managed to
get into the peer-reviewed press. Others of us have been more successful in
getting controversial stuff seen. I'm thinking of Richard and Chandra. I'm
hoping to learn from you guys!<BR><BR>On this note - as well as the general
email discussion forum-is it perhaps worth setting up a (more or less secure)
server on which we can share, and comment on, some of the pre-prints we have all
been writing? These are likely to contain much more of substance that the
general discourse we can contribute in an email.<BR><BR>Regards, John
W.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">
<HR align=center SIZE=2 width="100%">
</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV id=divRpF989615>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> General
[general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org]
on behalf of John Duffield [johnduffield@btconnect.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday,
February 23, 2015 11:33 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Nature of Light and Particles - General
Discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [General] the edge of the universe</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Martin:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>I tend to draw parallels
between the universe and a black hole, but in my humble opinion there are some
issues with the way black holes are usually described. I like to think that this
little gedankenexperiment helps to tease it out: <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">You're standing on a gedanken
planet holding a laser pointer straight up. The light doesn't curve round, or
slow down as it ascends, or fall down. It goes straight up. Now I wave my magic
wand and make the planet denser and more massive. The light still doesn't curve
round, or slow down as it ascends, or fall down. I make the planet even denser
and more massive. The light <I>still</I> doesn't curve round, or slow down as it
ascends, or fall down. I make the planet <I>even</I> denser and more massive,
and take it to the limit such that it's a black hole. At no point did the light
ever curve round, or slow down as it ascends, or fall down. So <I>why doesn't
the light get out?</I></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Regards<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>John
D<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <A
title=martin.van.der.mark@philips.com
href="mailto:martin.van.der.mark@philips.com" target=_blank>Mark, Martin van
der</A> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> Sunday,
February 22, 2015 4:36 PM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <A
title=general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target=_blank>Nature
of Light and Particles - General Discussion</A> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> Re:
[General] the edge of the universe<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d'>Guys,</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d'>The
universe has an edge in some sense, it is in fact a black hole, nothing can
escape (even by definition). It tries to expand, light it going outwards but is
held back just as in a “common” black hole.</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d'>It is
impossible to reach the edge. But would you manage to get there somehow, the new
edge has shifted a bit further…it is our good old horizon again!</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d'>Cheers,
Martin</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=DE
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'>Dr. Martin
B. van der Mark</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'>Principal
Scientist, Minimally Invasive Healthcare</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'> </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'>Philips
Research Europe - Eindhoven</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'>High Tech
Campus, Building 34 (WB2.025)</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'>Prof.
Holstlaan 4</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'>5656
AE Eindhoven, The Netherlands</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial",sans-serif; COLOR: navy'>Tel: +31
40 2747548</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> General
[<A
href="mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>John Duffield<BR><B>Sent:</B> zondag 22 februari 2015
17:29<BR><B>To:</B> 'Nature of Light and Particles - General
Discussion'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [General] the edge of the
universe</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Chip:</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Now you mention it, I
think the universe has to have some kind of edge. I wrote something speculative
about it <A
title=http://bogpaper.com/science-sundays-with-john-duffield-edge-of-the-universe/
href="http://bogpaper.com/science-sundays-with-john-duffield-edge-of-the-universe/"
target=_blank>here</A>. WMAP says the universe is flat, <A
href="http://arxiv.org/abs/1303.5086" target=_blank>Planck has found no evidence
of any curvature or any toroidal topology</A> , and IMHO an infinite universe
can not be an expanding universe, because then the energy-pressure would be
counterbalanced at all locations. If it isn’t curved round on itself and if it
doesn’t go on forever, there’s not a lot of options left: it has to have some
kind of edge. Such that there is no space beyond this edge, there <EM><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'>is</SPAN></EM> no beyond it. As for
what it’s like, I don’t know. Maybe the universe is some kind of hall-of-mirrors
thing, like mentioned <A
title=http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/space/05/24/universe.wide/
href="http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/space/05/24/universe.wide/"
target=_blank>here</A>. Maybe there’s some kind of event horizon, maybe it’s
none of the above, I don’t know. But what I do know is this: cosmologists use
the surface of a sphere as an example of something without an edge, even though
there is no evidence whatsoever of any higher dimensionality. It occurs to me
that they’re like the old flat-Earth guys in reverse. It is alleged that in
ancient times people could not conceive of a world without an edge. Nowadays
cosmologists can not conceive of a world <EM><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'>with</SPAN></EM> an
edge. </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Regards</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>John D</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <A
title=chipakins@gmail.com href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com" target=_blank>Chip
Akins</A> </SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> Sunday,
February 22, 2015 3:43 PM</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <A
title=general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target=_blank>'Nature
of Light and Particles - General Discussion'</A> </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> Re:
[General] gravitation</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Hi Stephen<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Thank you for the
insight.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">What I am saying however, is that
emission of a photon, may not be dependent on there being a pre-identified
absorber. But rather, that if the local field conditions of the emitter allow
emission in a specific direction, then a photon could be emitted. The local
field herein would be defined as the area around the emitter wherein the fields
from absorbers are still strong enough to be even slightly sensed by the
emitter.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Since we do not yet know if there
is an “edge” to the universe (meaning an “edge” of space-time), nor do we know
the nature of such an “edge” should it exist. It may not add clarity to our
perceptions to try to contemplate the possible actions of photons in that
location. But my feeling is that, if we envision an edge exists, the void beyond
would present no fields to an adjacent particle sufficiently close to that edge,
and therefore no condition for emission would be
presented.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">What I am having some trouble
digesting is the concept that, regardless of distance or time, an emitter and
absorber are pre-identified prior to photon “exchange”. I understand the
concept, but the implications do not seem to be a description of our universe.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">For, if every photon in flight, at
this instant, had identified its specific absorber prior to or at emission, then
the exact location of all absorbers, the future position of every particle or
atom, meaning our exact fate, was known and established billions of years
ago.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Is there another way to look at
long distance photon “exchange” which does not present this
problem?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Chip<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>
General [<A
href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target=_blank>mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Stephen Leary<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, February 22, 2015 2:30
AM<BR><B>To:</B> Nature of Light and Particles - General
Discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [General] gravitation</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Hi Chip, <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">I request you add the following
question to your thinking and see how it fits in. Consider matter at the "edge"
of the universe (by that i mean that there is no matter beyond and make that
explicit assumption). Is that matter allowed/able to emit photons in any
direction regardless of whether they are ever
absorbed?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">IMHO they cannot do this.
Similarly for long distance photons I don't see the issue. It just reduces the
likelyhood of interaction. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">Regards<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">Stephen<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 6:29 PM,
Chip Akins <<A href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com"
target=_blank>chipakins@gmail.com</A>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 6pt; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt; BORDER-LEFT: #cccccc 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in">
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Hi All</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Following John Duffield’s
comments regarding photon’s relation to “time” and reading “The Other Meaning
of Special Relativity”, still leaves a few questions (for my feeble mental
processes), relating to correlating theory to
experiment.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">My approach has been precisely
as described by Robert Close, regarding the photon constituted mass carrying
particles, clearly displaying relativistic properties naturally, due to their
wave (photon) structure.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">There appears to be a
significant amount of evidence supporting such an
approach.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Underlying that approach, and as
an implication of the results, is the suggestion that there is (even if we
cannot detect it) a reference rest frame in space. Close therefore remarks,
<I>“What has not been generally recognized is that special relativity is a
consequence of the wave nature of matter and is entirely consistent with
classical notions of absolute space and time.”</I><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN></I><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">So, like John D., I am still
looking for, and willing to exhaustively pursue, any possible explanations for
experiment, which are built on such an approach, before abandoning such a
robust, simple, and elegant, causal approach. But I cannot ignore the
compelling arguments from John Williamson, Martin van der Mark, Stephen Leary.
So at this time certain issues remain (for me)
unresolved.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">While our discussions of the
photon and possible various relativistic interpretations, to describe
experiment, are quite stimulating and thought provoking. In my current
view, the idea that a photon can feel its entire future, at one point in
spacetime, raises more problems than it solves. While the “one point in
spacetime” approach, may in fact turn out to be the actual nature of physics,
I feel it is required to look for other explanations, and there are many
possibilities we can explore, before accepting any answer to best describe
experiment.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Hi Stephen</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Thank you for the analogy.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Of course to test any idea, we
need to look at the full range of applications of the
idea.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">I can understand the photon
exchange, hinted by your analogy, for a distance which is easily within the
field of the emitters and absorbers, or a distance where the mutual field
strength is sufficiently above the “background” noise floor.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">However for me it does not seem
to hold for large distances. In other words, I feel that for close range
photon exchange, the fields are sufficiently strong to have an influence on
such photon exchange. Tony Fleming has created a model for the hydrogen
atom using a variation of such an approach, which is very accurate at
predicting the properties of this atom. “<U>Electromagnetic Self-Field Theory
and Its Application to the Hydrogen Atom</U>” Anthony Fleming
2005.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">However for very large
distances, it seems to me that photon “exchange” is not a pre-required
condition, and that photon emission is quite acceptable even if the eventual
absorber is not already known at emission. I do not yet feel, that a photon
can only exist, if the absorber is already “known” by the
photon.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Hi John D.
</SPAN></B><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Thank you for the references to
photon models. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Having toyed with certain photon
models, the one described by Drozdov and Stahlhofen has been very close to my
preferred model. But it leaves questions raised by some experimental
observation unanswered. However I have not looked closely at the
full set of implications regarding the possibility that a viable photon model
may also exist, encompassing multiples of its wavelength. To explore, we might
be able to model the emission duration for certain events, and compare that
estimated duration to the emitted photon wavelength. Meanwhile, I will
run some math to explore further.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Hi Chandra</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">I agree with your approach and
comments regarding our quest.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">And referring directly
to…<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><I><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black">“If we do
not explicitly frame our questions to access reality of nature; we will never
find it!”</SPAN></I></B><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black"> </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black">The group has
begun addressing specific issues, from different viewpoints, which enhance our
individual, and therefore collective, ability to look more clearly at the
problems, and the implications of different views, and therefore review the
possibilities in a more complete manner.</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black"> </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black">Thank you for
your tremendous assistance and contribution to this process.</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black"> </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black">All</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">It appears we have a consensus
for material substance (mass carrying particles) from
light.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">If we do have a consensus for
building matter from light (photons), then it seems we must better understand
the photon, for the photon then becomes the foundation for everything. So that
misconceptions in the understanding of the photon, would propagate to the
entire concept.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Chip<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-TOP: #e1e1e1 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>
General [mailto:<A href="mailto:general-bounces%2Bchipakins"
target=_blank>general-bounces+chipakins</A>=<A
href="mailto:gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target=_blank>gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</A>] <B>On Behalf
Of </B>John Duffield<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, February 21, 2015 9:46
AM<BR><B>To:</B> Nature of Light and Particles - General
Discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [General] gravitation</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Andrew:</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>It’s a mystery to me
why people don’t know about this kind of stuff. Einstein said </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><A href="http://www.rain.org/~karpeles/einsteindis.html"
target=_blank><SPAN style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'>a field is a
state of space</SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>. Susskind said the
same in his video lecture. And there aren’t two states of space where an
electron is.</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>As for the strong
force, it’s supposed to be fundamental. So ask yourself this: <EM><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'>where does the strong force go in
low-energy proton-antiproton annihilation to gamma photons? </SPAN></EM>And
ask yourself this: <EM><SPAN style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'>what is
it that makes the electromagnetic wave propagate at c?</SPAN></EM>
Alternatively, imagine you can hold this electron in your hands like a bagel.
</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'><IMG id=_x0000_i1026
border=0 alt=toroidalphotonsmall
src="cid:8E8B87B633C64172B7C8F923CCF0FEBF@HPlaptop" width=265
height=192></SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Imagine it’s elastic,
like the bag model. Try to pull it apart. You will find that you cannot. You
can’t pull this kiddie apart either:</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'><IMG id=_x0000_i1027
border=0 alt=trefoil src="cid:D9FDB4002AC542D0847BBF802C08B789@HPlaptop"
width=229 height=229></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>It’s made of three
parts, three partons. See </SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><A
title=http://www.ipmu.jp/webfm_send/1053
href="http://www.ipmu.jp/webfm_send/1053" target=_blank><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'>http://www.ipmu.jp/webfm_send/1053</SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> and note page 11
where Witten mentions knot crossings? Trace round it clockwise starting at the
bottom left calling out the crossing-over directions: <EM><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'>up up down</SPAN></EM>. When you do
eventually break this thing, you don’t see three things flying free.
</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Regards</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>John D </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>
</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><A title=mules333@gmail.com
href="mailto:mules333@gmail.com" target=_blank><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif'>Andrew
Meulenberg</SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>
</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>
Saturday, February 21, 2015 6:41 AM</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>
</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><A
title=general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target=_blank><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif'>Nature of Light and
Particles - General Discussion</SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>
</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>
[General] gravitation</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Dear John
D,</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>I wonder why this
concept has not been developed?</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-LEFT: 30pt">
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>"The clockwise and
anticlockwise twists don’t quite cancel. The rubber sheet is subject to a
tension that diminishes with distance. That represents the hydrogen atom’s
gravitational field."</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>I came to this
conclusion several years ago that gravitation was the long-range,
non-torsional, 'residue' of the strong EM fields composing the net-neutral
charge fields of matter. This came from thinking (non-mathematically) about
the differences between the E & M forces as distortions of space & how
relativity affects them.</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>I hope to write-up a
paper on strong-gravity (after the conference in August), that describes the
nuclear strong force as resulting from the interacting short-range (multipole)
fields of the relativistic electron-positron 'clusters' (triplets?) called
quarks.</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Andrew</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>
<HR align=center SIZE=2 width="100%">
</SPAN></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><BR><BR
clear=all><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">-- <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Stephen
Leary<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>
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