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<DIV>Andrew:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>1. If you shine a light straight at a block of glass, it goes straight
through. If you were inside the glass shining your light, it would shine
straight out. There is no total internal reflection. Here’s Professor Tom
Moore’s reply to the question:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman"><STRONG>As the planet's mass
approaches the black hole limit, the signal emitted from the surface will seem
to move more and more slowly away from the surface (and will also be seen to be
increasingly red-shifted as observed from infinity). When the surface of the
planet coincides with the black hole's event horizon, the signal will stop
moving outward from the surface (and the redshift observed at infinity will go
to infinity). So light no longer escapes".</STRONG></FONT><BR>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>2. Frequency changes because time changes as you descend into the black
hole, but how do you define time? Let’s start with the second. It’s defined as
<EM>the duration of <SPAN class=nowrap>9<SPAN style="MARGIN-LEFT: 4px">192<SPAN
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 4px">631<SPAN
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 4px">770</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN> periods of the
radiation corresponding to the transition between the two </EM><A
title="Hyperfine levels" class=mw-redirect
style='href: "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperfine_levels"'><EM>hyperfine
levels</EM></A><EM> of the </EM><A title="Ground state"
style='href: "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_state"'><EM>ground
state</EM></A><EM> of the </EM><A title=Caesium
style='href: "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesium"'><EM>caesium
133</EM></A><EM> atom</EM>. In essence you sit there counting 9192631770
microwaves going past you, then you jump up and say <EM>that’s a second</EM>.
When the light goes slower the second is bigger. See <A
title=http://arxiv.org/abs/0705.4507
href="http://arxiv.org/abs/0705.4507">http://arxiv.org/abs/0705.4507</A> where
Magueijo and Moffat talked about the tautology. We define the second and the
metre using the local motion of light, then use them to measure the local motion
of light, and it always comes out as 299,792,458 m/s. <EM>Duh!</EM> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>3. When you lift an electron you do work on it. You add energy to it. You
increase its mass. Because it’s a photon going round and round, and at the
higher altitude it’s going round faster. Draw it as light going round a square
path to understand what happens when you drop it. Light curves downwards because
“the speed of light is spatially variable”. So the horizontals curve down and
the electron falls down. Note that only the horizontals are curved, which is why
matter is deflected half as much as light. And that the reducing speed of light
bleeds internal kinetic out of the electron into macroscopic kinetic
energy. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><IMG title=electronfall
style="BORDER-TOP: 0px; BORDER-RIGHT: 0px; BACKGROUND-IMAGE: none; BORDER-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; BORDER-LEFT: 0px; DISPLAY: inline; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"
border=0 alt=electronfall src="cid:C717D7CA3C81499588E88FC99CEB0944@HPlaptop"
width=276 height=232>, </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>See Albrecht Geise describing it here: <A
title=http://ag-physics.org/gravity/
href="http://ag-physics.org/gravity/">http://ag-physics.org/gravity/</A>. I
don’t quite agree with everything he says, but it’s the same elephant. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Regards</DIV>
<DIV>John </DIV>
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<DIV><FONT size=3 face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=mules333@gmail.com
href="mailto:mules333@gmail.com">Andrew Meulenberg</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, February 24, 2015 5:37 AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">Nature of Light and
Particles - General Discussion</A> ; <A title=mules333@gmail.com
href="mailto:mules333@gmail.com">Andrew Meulenberg</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [General] why doesn't the light get
out?</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style='FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV>
<DIV>Dear John D.,<BR><BR></DIV>You have posed some interesting
ideas/models/scenarios.<BR><BR></DIV>let us try a few answers.<BR>
<OL>
<LI>The light emitted from inside a black hole is like going from a high
refractive index to a lower one as you move out. As the mass of the potential
well, or the depth of emission within a black hole, increases the critical
angle for total internal reflection decreases and, from the center of a black
hole, the light will reflect (like a wave from a beach) even when aimed
straight out.
<LI>The black hole mass increases by 511 keV/c^2 when an electron, or a photon
of that energy, falls into it. A photon is blue-shifted (frequency &
energy increase) when going into a black hole (its wavelength decreases in
another view). Frequency changes because time changes as you descend into the
black hole.
<LI>Your description of gaining mass energy as you 'ascend' is the proper
description of the increase of mass & charge during the creation of the
electron-positron pair from a photon (a white hole?).</LI></OL>
<P>Food for much discussion.</P>
<P>Andrew<BR></P>_______________________________,<BR>
<DIV class=gmail_extra>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 9:58 PM, John Duffield <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:johnduffield@btconnect.com"
target=_blank>johnduffield@btconnect.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
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<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV style='FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri"; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0)'>
<DIV>John:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Imagine we’re in gravity-free space. I shine a laser, and you measure the
frequency. Then you accelerate away along the line of the laser and measure
the frequency again. Light is experimentally redshifted. But that light didn’t
change one jot. Instead, <I>you</I> changed, along with your measuring
equipment. Now let’s repeat for the vertical light beam. You measure the
frequency at ground level, then you ascend to some great height and measure
the frequency again. Light is experimentally redshifted. But <I>that light
didn’t change one jot. </I>Instead, <I>you </I>changed, along with your
measuring equipment. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>That isn’t what’s taught, but think about this: if you send a 511keV
photon into a black hole, the black hole mass increases by 511kev/c<SPAN><FONT
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">². Not by any other amount. <FONT size=3>The
descending photon <I>doesn’t</I> gain any energy. Instead, when you descend,
you lose it, remember the mass deficit. And when you ascend, you gain it. If I
lift you up, I do work on you. I add energy to you. So you measure the photon
to be redshifted even though it isn’t. </FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><FONT
size=3></FONT></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><I>At this point I have a
problem with most other peoples view of a black hole (including, as far as I
understand it, some famous scientists portrayed in Oscar winning films) in
that , manifestly in this picture, more energetic (blue) light will reach this
limit at a different height (and for different gravitational potentials). So
there is no particular "event horizon". In this picture, something which is a
"black hole" for radio is not so for a visible photon. This is a
semi-classical picture of a black hole. It is the way I look at it at the
moment, but am very open to having my mind changed by a convincing argument to
the contrary. Please.<BR></I><BR><FONT face=Calibri><FONT
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Well spotted. Here’s a clue as to why I think that
light doesn’t get out:</FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><IMG title=EinsteinSpeedofLight
style="BORDER-TOP: 0px; BORDER-RIGHT: 0px; BACKGROUND-IMAGE: none; BORDER-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; BORDER-LEFT: 0px; DISPLAY: inline; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"
border=0 alt=EinsteinSpeedofLight
src="cid:B4791043DD314348AAB3FF5E54F7061E@HPlaptop" width=484
height=335></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><FONT face=Calibri><FONT
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Regards</DIV>
<DIV>John</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style='FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri"; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0)'></DIV>
<DIV
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt tahoma">
<DIV><FONT size=3 face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: rgb(245,245,245)">
<DIV><B>From:</B> <A title=John.Williamson@glasgow.ac.uk
href="mailto:John.Williamson@glasgow.ac.uk" target=_blank>John Williamson</A>
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Monday, February 23, 2015 1:49 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target=_blank>Nature
of Light and Particles - General Discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [General] the edge of the universe</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style='FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); DIRECTION: ltr">Hi
John (D),<BR><BR>What happens depends on the theoretical mantle one chooses to
wear for the argument. I think all our wordy speculations (we call them
theories) are not really worth anything when compared to experiment. Faraday
called all theory "speculation" and he was right.<BR><BR>John D your scenario
is lacking in the consideration of one crucial experimental fact. Light is,
experimentally, red-shifted as it works against the action of, even a modest,
a gravitational potential. This is the argument in Martin's paper "light is
heavy", amongst other places, but is easy to measure just by looking at light
from and to space.<BR><BR>This is not my field but ,as Martin and I would day,
unhindered by any knowledge (ongehindered door enige kennis) I will have a go
at elucidating this from several different perspectives ..<BR><BR>As I see it,
the light does not "slow down" but it does redshift, getting redder and redder
as it goes up. That wonderful magic wand of yours (can I have one?) simply
makes the photons redshift faster.<BR><BR>Black hole-ness then occurs when the
photon redshifts all the way down to zero frequency. At this point it has used
up all its initial (positive) energy in trying to get out of the (negative
gravitational potential energy of the ) black hole.<BR><BR>At this point I
have a problem with most other peoples view of a black hole (including, as far
as I understand it, some famous scientists portrayed in Oscar winning films)
in that , manifestly in this picture, more energetic (blue) light will reach
this limit at a different height (and for different gravitational potentials).
So there is no particular "event horizon". In this picture, something which is
a "black hole" for radio is not so for a visible photon. This is a
semi-classical picture of a black hole. It is the way I look at it at the
moment, but am very open to having my mind changed by a convincing argument to
the contrary. Please.<BR><BR>The standard Schwartzchild theories, it seems to
me, envisage a hypothetical massive lightspeed particle not observed in
Nature. I could be wrong here though- that is just what the maths of the
argument looks like to me. The limit is calculated in classical Newtonian
gravity- look it up!. <BR>I would have thought that this ought to be taken as
being a serious problem but it seems not be thought so in some quarters. There
seems to a lot of talk, or talk about talk, but few seem to look at the actual
calculations, and properly consider what they really mean and what the basis
of the whole argument really is. I must admit to finding this truly
astonishing. It does not seem to me to fit properly with the calibre of some
of the people propounding the arguments.<BR><BR>If one goes to general
relativity, which should be better, one runs into further serious problems.
Amongst other things if one does the maths correctly there is really no such
thing as a black hole (see Crothers ... though he has had a lot of trouble
getting his stuff published his maths looks right to me). We should talk to
this guy! The best accepted work seems (to me) to mix Newtonian and
Einsteinian ideas up at different points in the argument. I would really like
to see this discussion go to proper level.<BR><BR>Quantum gravity has the
problem that the gravitons responsible for the interaction should also travel
at lightspeed, so if light cannot get out neither should they.<BR><BR>Coming
back to the universe, the (redshift) limit for the universe as a whole is just
the same formula as for the (standard as-above) black hole boundary. Martin
calculated this a long time ago and it puzzled us for a while, until we
realised that that is just about what is observed. The "edge" of the universe
is just the point where the (Hubble constant redshifted) energy of the light,
or any massive light-speed particle, reaching us just goes to zero.
<BR><BR>Ok, that is quite enough pontificating on my part because one of us,
Viv Robinson, knows much more about this than I do. He has written a brilliant
paper on it. In doing so he has had to fight much obfuscating nonsense
widespread in the media (both in "common knowledge, on the internet, in
science fiction, and even in much of the peer-reviewed press -not to mention
in such authoratitive sources as hollywood!). One of his ideas is
(correct me if I am simplifying this Viv), no matter where light starts from -
in an infinite uniform universe it still has to negotiate a gravitational
potential which it must climb out of. For what it is worth I think this is
fundamentally correct. It is worth noting that, despite the intrinsic value of
his ideas, he has had loads of trouble getting this published as well ... but
it is out (thank goodness). This is a task quite as hard as Andrew's from his
perspective. I think this problem has been experienced by several of us- I
have submitted a dozen papers in the last few years, none of which have
managed to get into the peer-reviewed press. Others of us have been more
successful in getting controversial stuff seen. I'm thinking of Richard and
Chandra. I'm hoping to learn from you guys!<BR><BR>On this note - as well as
the general email discussion forum-is it perhaps worth setting up a (more or
less secure) server on which we can share, and comment on, some of the
pre-prints we have all been writing? These are likely to contain much more of
substance that the general discourse we can contribute in an
email.<BR><BR>Regards, John W.<BR>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 16px; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0)">
<HR>
<DIV style="DIRECTION: ltr"><FONT color=#000000 face=Tahoma><B>From:</B>
General [general-bounces+john.williamson=<A
href="mailto:glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target=_blank>glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</A>] on behalf
of John Duffield [<A href="mailto:johnduffield@btconnect.com"
target=_blank>johnduffield@btconnect.com</A>]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, February
23, 2015 11:33 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Nature of Light and Particles - General
Discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [General] the edge of the
universe<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV style='FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri"; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0)'>
<DIV>Martin:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I tend to draw parallels between the universe and a black hole, but in my
humble opinion there are some issues with the way black holes are usually
described. I like to think that this little gedankenexperiment helps to tease
it out: </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">You're standing on a gedanken planet holding
a laser pointer straight up. The light doesn't curve round, or slow down as it
ascends, or fall down. It goes straight up. Now I wave my magic wand and make
the planet denser and more massive. The light still doesn't curve round, or
slow down as it ascends, or fall down. I make the planet even denser and more
massive. The light <I style="LIST-STYLE-TYPE: decimal">still</I> doesn't curve
round, or slow down as it ascends, or fall down. I make the planet <I
style="LIST-STYLE-TYPE: decimal">even</I> denser and more massive, and take it
to the limit such that it's a black hole. At no point did the light ever curve
round, or slow down as it ascends, or fall down. So <I
style="LIST-STYLE-TYPE: decimal">why doesn't the light get
out?</I></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Regards</DIV>
<DIV>John D</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style='FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri"; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0)'></DIV>
<DIV
style='FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt tahoma">
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: rgb(245,245,245)">
<DIV><B>From:</B> <A title=martin.van.der.mark@philips.com
href="mailto:martin.van.der.mark@philips.com" target=_blank>Mark, Martin van
der</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, February 22, 2015 4:36 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target=_blank>Nature
of Light and Particles - General Discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [General] the edge of the universe</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style='FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)'>Guys,</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)'>The
universe has an edge in some sense, it is in fact a black hole, nothing can
escape (even by definition). It tries to expand, light it going outwards but
is held back just as in a “common” black hole.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)'>It
is impossible to reach the edge. But would you manage to get there somehow,
the new edge has shifted a bit further…it is our good old horizon
again!</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)'>Cheers,
Martin</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)'></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=DE
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial","sans-serif"; COLOR: navy'>Dr.
Martin B. van der Mark</SPAN><SPAN lang=DE style="COLOR: navy"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial","sans-serif"; COLOR: navy'>Principal
Scientist, Minimally Invasive Healthcare</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: navy'></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: navy'></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial","sans-serif"; COLOR: navy'>Philips
Research Europe - Eindhoven</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: navy'></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial","sans-serif"; COLOR: navy'>High
Tech Campus, Building 34 (WB2.025)</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: navy'></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial","sans-serif"; COLOR: navy'>Prof.
Holstlaan 4</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: navy'></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial","sans-serif"; COLOR: navy'>5656
AE Eindhoven, The Netherlands</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: navy'></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial","sans-serif"; COLOR: navy'>Tel:
+31 40 2747548</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)'></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)'></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-TOP: rgb(181,196,223) 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"'> General
[mailto:<A href="mailto:general-bounces%2Bmartin.van.der.mark"
target=_blank>general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark</A>=<A
href="mailto:philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target=_blank>philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</A>] <B>On
Behalf Of </B>John Duffield<BR><B>Sent:</B> zondag 22 februari 2015
17:29<BR><B>To:</B> 'Nature of Light and Particles - General
Discussion'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [General] the edge of the
universe</SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>Chip:</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>Now you mention it,
I think the universe has to have some kind of edge. I wrote something
speculative about it <A
title=http://bogpaper.com/science-sundays-with-john-duffield-edge-of-the-universe/
href="http://bogpaper.com/science-sundays-with-john-duffield-edge-of-the-universe/"
target=_blank>here</A>. WMAP says the universe is flat, <A
href="http://arxiv.org/abs/1303.5086" target=_blank>Planck has found no
evidence of any curvature or any toroidal topology</A> , and IMHO an infinite
universe can not be an expanding universe, because then the energy-pressure
would be counterbalanced at all locations. If it isn’t curved round on itself
and if it doesn’t go on forever, there’s not a lot of options left: it has to
have some kind of edge. Such that there is no space beyond this edge, there
<I><SPAN style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"'>is</SPAN></I> no beyond
it. As for what it’s like, I don’t know. Maybe the universe is some kind of
hall-of-mirrors thing, like mentioned <A
title=http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/space/05/24/universe.wide/
href="http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/space/05/24/universe.wide/"
target=_blank>here</A>. Maybe there’s some kind of event horizon, maybe it’s
none of the above, I don’t know. But what I do know is this: cosmologists use
the surface of a sphere as an example of something without an edge, even
though there is no evidence whatsoever of any higher dimensionality. It occurs
to me that they’re like the old flat-Earth guys in reverse. It is alleged that
in ancient times people could not conceive of a world without an edge.
Nowadays cosmologists can not conceive of a world <I><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"'>with</SPAN></I> an
edge. </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>Regards</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>John
D</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'> <A
title=chipakins@gmail.com href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com" target=_blank>Chip
Akins</A> </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>
Sunday, February 22, 2015 3:43 PM</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'> <A
title=general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target=_blank>'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'</A>
</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'> Re:
[General] gravitation</SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN> </P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Hi Stephen</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Thank you for the
insight.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">What I am saying however, is
that emission of a photon, may not be dependent on there being a
pre-identified absorber. But rather, that if the local field conditions of the
emitter allow emission in a specific direction, then a photon could be
emitted. The local field herein would be defined as the area around the
emitter wherein the fields from absorbers are still strong enough to be even
slightly sensed by the emitter.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Since we do not yet know if
there is an “edge” to the universe (meaning an “edge” of space-time), nor do
we know the nature of such an “edge” should it exist. It may not add clarity
to our perceptions to try to contemplate the possible actions of photons in
that location. But my feeling is that, if we envision an edge exists, the void
beyond would present no fields to an adjacent particle sufficiently close to
that edge, and therefore no condition for emission would be
presented.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">What I am having some trouble
digesting is the concept that, regardless of distance or time, an emitter and
absorber are pre-identified prior to photon “exchange”. I understand the
concept, but the implications do not seem to be a description of our universe.
</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">For, if every photon in flight,
at this instant, had identified its specific absorber prior to or at emission,
then the exact location of all absorbers, the future position of every
particle or atom, meaning our exact fate, was known and established billions
of years ago.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Is there another way to look at
long distance photon “exchange” which does not present this
problem?</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Chip</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>
General [<A
href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target=_blank>mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Stephen Leary<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, February 22, 2015
2:30 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Nature of Light and Particles - General
Discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [General] gravitation</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Hi Chip, </SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">I request you add the following
question to your thinking and see how it fits in. Consider matter at the
"edge" of the universe (by that i mean that there is no matter beyond and make
that explicit assumption). Is that matter allowed/able to emit photons in any
direction regardless of whether they are ever absorbed?</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">IMHO they cannot do this.
Similarly for long distance photons I don't see the issue. It just reduces the
likelyhood of interaction. </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Regards</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Stephen</SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 6:29 PM,
Chip Akins <<A href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com"
target=_blank>chipakins@gmail.com</A>> wrote:</SPAN></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 6pt; MARGIN: 5pt 0cm 5pt 4.8pt; BORDER-LEFT: 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm">
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Hi All</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Following John Duffield’s
comments regarding photon’s relation to “time” and reading “The Other
Meaning of Special Relativity”, still leaves a few questions (for my feeble
mental processes), relating to correlating theory to experiment.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">My approach has been precisely
as described by Robert Close, regarding the photon constituted mass carrying
particles, clearly displaying relativistic properties naturally, due to
their wave (photon) structure.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">There appears to be a
significant amount of evidence supporting such an approach.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Underlying that approach, and
as an implication of the results, is the suggestion that there is (even if
we cannot detect it) a reference rest frame in space. Close therefore
remarks, <I>“What has not been generally recognized is that special
relativity is a consequence of the wave nature of matter and is entirely
consistent with classical notions of absolute space and
time.”</I></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></I><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">So, like John D., I am still
looking for, and willing to exhaustively pursue, any possible explanations
for experiment, which are built on such an approach, before abandoning such
a robust, simple, and elegant, causal approach. But I cannot ignore
the compelling arguments from John Williamson, Martin van der Mark, Stephen
Leary. So at this time certain issues remain (for me) unresolved.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">While our discussions of the
photon and possible various relativistic interpretations, to describe
experiment, are quite stimulating and thought provoking. In my current
view, the idea that a photon can feel its entire future, at one point in
spacetime, raises more problems than it solves. While the “one point in
spacetime” approach, may in fact turn out to be the actual nature of
physics, I feel it is required to look for other explanations, and there are
many possibilities we can explore, before accepting any answer to best
describe experiment.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Hi Stephen</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Thank you for the analogy.
</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Of course to test any idea, we
need to look at the full range of applications of the idea.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">I can understand the photon
exchange, hinted by your analogy, for a distance which is easily within the
field of the emitters and absorbers, or a distance where the mutual field
strength is sufficiently above the “background” noise floor.
</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">However for me it does not
seem to hold for large distances. In other words, I feel that for
close range photon exchange, the fields are sufficiently strong to have an
influence on such photon exchange. Tony Fleming has created a model
for the hydrogen atom using a variation of such an approach, which is very
accurate at predicting the properties of this atom. “<U>Electromagnetic
Self-Field Theory and Its Application to the Hydrogen Atom</U>” Anthony
Fleming 2005.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">However for very large
distances, it seems to me that photon “exchange” is not a pre-required
condition, and that photon emission is quite acceptable even if the eventual
absorber is not already known at emission. I do not yet feel, that a photon
can only exist, if the absorber is already “known” by the photon.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Hi John D.
</SPAN></B><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Thank you for the references
to photon models. </SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Having toyed with certain
photon models, the one described by Drozdov and Stahlhofen has been very
close to my preferred model. But it leaves questions raised by some
experimental observation unanswered. However I have not looked
closely at the full set of implications regarding the possibility that a
viable photon model may also exist, encompassing multiples of its
wavelength. To explore, we might be able to model the emission duration for
certain events, and compare that estimated duration to the emitted photon
wavelength. Meanwhile, I will run some math to explore
further.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Hi Chandra</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">I agree with your approach and
comments regarding our quest.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">And referring directly
to…</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><I><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black">“If we
do not explicitly frame our questions to access reality of nature; we will
never find it!”</SPAN></I></B><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black"></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black">The group has
begun addressing specific issues, from different viewpoints, which enhance
our individual, and therefore collective, ability to look more clearly at
the problems, and the implications of different views, and therefore review
the possibilities in a more complete manner.</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black"></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black">Thank you for
your tremendous assistance and contribution to this process.</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black"></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black">All</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">It appears we have a consensus
for material substance (mass carrying particles) from light.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">If we do have a consensus for
building matter from light (photons), then it seems we must better
understand the photon, for the photon then becomes the foundation for
everything. So that misconceptions in the understanding of the photon, would
propagate to the entire concept.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Chip</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-TOP: rgb(225,225,225) 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>
General [mailto:<A href="mailto:general-bounces%2Bchipakins"
target=_blank>general-bounces+chipakins</A>=<A
href="mailto:gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target=_blank>gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</A>] <B>On
Behalf Of </B>John Duffield<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, February 21, 2015 9:46
AM<BR><B>To:</B> Nature of Light and Particles - General
Discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [General] gravitation</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>Andrew:</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>It’s a mystery to
me why people don’t know about this kind of stuff. Einstein said
</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><A
href="http://www.rain.org/~karpeles/einsteindis.html" target=_blank><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"'>a field is a state of
space</SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>. Susskind said
the same in his video lecture. And there aren’t two states of space where an
electron is.</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>As for the strong
force, it’s supposed to be fundamental. So ask yourself this: <I><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"'>where does the strong force go
in low-energy proton-antiproton annihilation to gamma photons?
</SPAN></I>And ask yourself this: <I><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"'>what is it that makes the
electromagnetic wave propagate at c?</SPAN></I> Alternatively, imagine you
can hold this electron in your hands like a bagel. </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'><IMG border=0
alt=toroidalphotonsmall src="cid:D8789FB3C0D24C8DAADE751E69A4ED41@HPlaptop"
width=265 height=192></SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>Imagine it’s
elastic, like the bag model. Try to pull it apart. You will find that you
cannot. You can’t pull this kiddie apart either:</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'><IMG border=0
alt=trefoil src="cid:98A502A9522D467BA4451E58BD27EBC7@HPlaptop" width=229
height=229></SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>It’s made of three
parts, three partons. See </SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><A
title=http://www.ipmu.jp/webfm_send/1053
href="http://www.ipmu.jp/webfm_send/1053" target=_blank><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"'>http://www.ipmu.jp/webfm_send/1053</SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'> and note page 11
where Witten mentions knot crossings? Trace round it clockwise starting at
the bottom left calling out the crossing-over directions: <I><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"'>up up down</SPAN></I>. When you
do eventually break this thing, you don’t see three things flying
free. </SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>Regards</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>John D
</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>
</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><A title=mules333@gmail.com
href="mailto:mules333@gmail.com" target=_blank><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Andrew
Meulenberg</SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>
</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>
Saturday, February 21, 2015 6:41 AM</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>
</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><A
title=general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target=_blank><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Nature of Light
and Particles - General Discussion</SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>
</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>
[General] gravitation</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>Dear John
D,</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>I wonder why this
concept has not been developed?</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-LEFT: 30pt">
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>"The clockwise and
anticlockwise twists don’t quite cancel. The rubber sheet is subject to a
tension that diminishes with distance. That represents the hydrogen atom’s
gravitational field."</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>I came to this
conclusion several years ago that gravitation was the long-range,
non-torsional, 'residue' of the strong EM fields composing the net-neutral
charge fields of matter. This came from thinking (non-mathematically) about
the differences between the E & M forces as distortions of space &
how relativity affects them.</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>I hope to write-up
a paper on strong-gravity (after the conference in August), that describes
the nuclear strong force as resulting from the interacting short-range
(multipole) fields of the relativistic electron-positron 'clusters'
(triplets?) called quarks.</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>Andrew</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
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style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">-- </SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Stephen
Leary</SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
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