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<div style="direction: ltr;font-family: Tahoma;color: #000000;font-size: 10pt;">My Fault ... should have read the reference ... So should you all. I think it pretty much correct and with some useful content- with the possible exception that the author ascribes
Einstien's use of "velocity" to mean "speed". I do not think so - I think Einstein was just having a little joke and forcing his reader to do a bit of thinking. He did that quite a lot!<br>
<br>
I had better have a look at it in the German before I make up my mind. <br>
<br>
The other thing worth noting is that author seems to be ignorant of the distinction and opposite transformation properties of time and frequency and hence is a bit sloppy when he talks about "accelleration".<br>
<br>
The good news is that a warning is coming up but turns out to be for an admin meeting not a lab .... I'm too busy to realise its is a (lab -free) Wednesday!). Yippee .. I have two hours more than I thought today ...<br>
<br>
Cheers, John.<br>
<br>
<br>
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<div style="direction: ltr;" id="divRpF8925"><font color="#000000" face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b> General [general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org] on behalf of John Williamson [John.Williamson@glasgow.ac.uk]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 25, 2015 1:09 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Black holes<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<div style="direction:ltr; font-family:Tahoma; color:#000000; font-size:10pt">John D ..<br>
<br>
Just checked the Baez page you refer to. The first thing it says is ..<br>
<br>
"The short answer is that it depends on who is doing the measuring: the speed of light is only guaranteed to have a value of 299,792,458 m/s in a vacuum when measured by someone situated right next to it."<br>
<br>
Just as I said!<br>
<br>
This would have saved me the trouble of writing some of that shit if I had looked at it before!<br>
<br>
Cheers, John.<br>
<div style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:#000000; font-size:16px">
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<div id="divRpF689168" style="direction:ltr"><font color="#000000" face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b> General [general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org] on behalf of John Duffield [johnduffield@btconnect.com]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 25, 2015 10:06 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Black holes<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div></div>
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<div>Martin:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>With respect, I must challenge you on the speed of light, because it is of crucial importance. Yes, it is generally taught that the speed of light is constant, but it’s a
<a href="http://arxiv.org/abs/0705.4507" target="_blank">tautology</a>, a myth, and it contradicts
<a href="http://einsteinpapers.press.princeton.edu/vol7-trans/156?highlightText=%22speed%20of%20light%22" target="_blank">
Einstein</a>, and Irwin <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shapiro_delay" target="_blank">
Shapiro</a>, and others. See for example <a href="http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SpeedOfLight/speed_of_light.html" target="_blank">
this</a> Baez page where Don Koks says this:</div>
<div> </div>
<div><em>Einstein talked about the speed of light changing in his new theory. In the English translation of his 1920 book "Relativity: the special and general theory" he wrote: "according to the general theory of relativity, the law of the constancy of the
velocity [Einstein clearly means speed here, since velocity (a vector) is not in keeping with the rest of his sentence] of light in vacuo, which constitutes one of the two fundamental assumptions in the special theory of relativity [...] cannot claim any unlimited
validity. A curvature of rays of light can only take place when the velocity [speed] of propagation of light varies with position." This difference in speeds is precisely that referred to above by ceiling and floor observers.</em></div>
<div><em></em> </div>
<div>Or see Ned Wright’s <a href="http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/deflection-delay.html" target="_blank">
deflection and delay of light</a> and note this: <i style="list-style-type:decimal">
"In a very real sense, the delay experienced by light passing a massive object is responsible for the deflection of the light”</i>. Light doesn’t curve because spacetime is curved. That confuses cause and effect. Einstein never said that. It curves because
<a href="https://bogpaper.wordpress.com/2013/10/06/science-sundays-with-john-duffield-speed-of-light/" target="_blank">
the speed of light varies with position</a>. It curves like <a href="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/es310/SNR_PROP/snr_prop.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">
sonar waves curve</a><font color="#0066cc"></font><font face="Times New Roman"><font face="Calibri">.
</font></font>Moreover the myth contradicts the patent blatant scientific evidence. You’ll be aware that the
<a href="http://www.learner.org/courses/physics/scientist/transcripts/wineland.html" target="_blank">
NIST optical clock</a> goes slower when its lower. The same is true for the idealized parallel-mirror light clock used
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation#Simple_inference_of_time_dilation_due_to_relative_velocity" target="_blank">
extensively in relativity</a>. The lower clock goes slower. And there is no actual time passing or flowing anywhere. Now look at the two light pulses in the picture below. Are they going at the same speed?
</div>
<div> </div>
<div><img title="parallel" alt="parallel" src="cid:7CD23B735C174EC09D9F04E46D84940D@HPlaptop" style="display:inline" height="196" width="133"></div>
<div> </div>
<div>The answer is <em>no</em>. The lower pulse goes slower. But <em>you would not know if you were there</em>, because you go slower too, because
<em>you are made of light</em>. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Regards</div>
<div>John D</div>
<div> </div>
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<div style=""><b>From:</b> <a title="martin.van.der.mark@philips.com" href="mailto:martin.van.der.mark@philips.com" target="_blank">
Mark, Martin van der</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 24, 2015 9:56 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank">
Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Black holes</div>
</div>
</div>
<div> </div>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1f497d">Chip, if John is confusing you, don’t worry. It is a mixture of half arguments interesting points of vieuw and flaws. (Sorry John, forget about Major Tom, let
him crash) Too many to debunk here, it is like explaining 10 Perpetuum mobiles at once, but I will say something about the most important one.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1f497d">The speed of light, for example. It is always c. space may be denser close to a large mass, but you would not know if you are there. If light seems slower,
one way or another, you are comparing to a geometry that does not apply. If it comes later (notice the subtlety here please) it may have travelled through dense space, like a block of glass or a gravitational field. Now things change a bit when we start moving
with respect to inhomogeneities like this. That’s for later.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1f497d">Regards, Martin</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1f497d"></span> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:navy" lang="DE">Dr. Martin B. van der Mark</span><span style="color:navy" lang="DE"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:navy">Principal Scientist, Minimally Invasive Healthcare</span><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:navy"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:navy"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:navy">Philips Research Europe - Eindhoven</span><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:navy"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:navy">High Tech Campus, Building 34 (WB2.025)</span><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:navy"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:navy">Prof. Holstlaan 4</span><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:navy"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:navy">5656 AE Eindhoven, The Netherlands</span><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:navy"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:navy">Tel: +31 40 2747548</span><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1f497d"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1f497d"></span> </p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> General [mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>John Duffield<br>
<b>Sent:</b> dinsdag 24 februari 2015 15:48<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Black holes</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">Chip:</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"> </span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">It gets even more interesting than that. See
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Firewall_(physics)&oldid=587309921" target="_blank">
an old version of the Wikipedia Firewall article</a>. See the mention of Winterberg? That’s Friedwardt Winterberg. You know how Einstein said
<a href="http://einsteinpapers.press.princeton.edu/vol7-trans/156?highlightText=%22speed%20of%20light%22" target="_blank">
light curves because the speed of light is spatially variable</a>, and I said the reducing speed of light bleeds internal kinetic out of the electron into macroscopic kinetic energy?
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"><img id="_x0000_i1025" alt="electronfall" src="cid:923021E7E766406BA93B800261D82EFF@HPlaptop" border="0" height="197" width="247"></span></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">Well, guess what? It can’t keep doing this forever. There comes a point when the electron’s falling speed would be greater than the local coordinate speed of light. And the electron
is made out of light. It can’t go faster than light, because it<em><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> is</span></em> light. But falling bodies keep on accelerating, because the speed of light is spatially variable. So something’s got to give.
And there’s only one thing that <em><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">can</span></em> give. The electron. See Friedwardt Winterberg’s paper attached. It’s about gamma ray bursters. If you fell into a black hole, you’d never make it to the event
horizon. IMHO all the stuff you hear about the <a href="http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19225751.200-the-elephant-and-the-event-horizon.html" target="_blank">
elephant being in two places at once</a> is a load of old cobblers. And as for the information paradox and the AMPS firewall and Hawking radiation, I couldn’t possibly comment.
</span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">Regards</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">John</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black">
<a title="chipakins@gmail.com" href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com" target="_blank">
Chip Akins</a> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black">Sent:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black"> Tuesday, February 24, 2015 1:57
PM</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black">To:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black">
<a title="general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank">
'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'</a> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black">Subject:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black"> Re: [General] Black holes</span></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"> </span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Hi John D</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Very interesting thought about gravity not existing in any space where light cannot be slowed.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Regarding… “</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">The reason light doesn’t get out of the black hole isn’t because it’s redshifted to oblivion. But because it’s
<em><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">stopped</span></em>.”</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">It seems redshifted to oblivion and stopped, are the same thing. (With one slight exception, the energy of the photon remains, so perhaps oblivion is not the correct word.)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">Chip</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border-top:#e1e1e1 1pt solid; border-right:medium none; border-bottom:medium none; padding-bottom:0cm; padding-top:3pt; padding-left:0cm; border-left:medium none; padding-right:0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"> General [<a href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>John Duffield<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 24, 2015 7:40 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Black holes</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">Martin/John/All:</span></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"> </span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">This thing about space falling inward is called the
<a href="http://jila.colorado.edu/~ajsh/insidebh/waterfall.html" target="_blank">
waterfall analogy</a>. <em><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Spit</span></em>. It is popscience cargo-cult garbage that bears no relation to Einstein’s general relativity or hard scientific evidence. Note the energy-pressure diagonal in the
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress%E2%80%93energy_tensor" target="_blank">
stress-energy-momentum tensor</a>? A gravitational field is akin to an “energy-pressure gradient in space” that alters the motion of light and matter through space. But it does not make space move inwards. We do
<em><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">not</span></em> live in some Chicken-Little world. The sky is
<em><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">not</span></em> falling in. Like Einstein said, light curves because the speed of light is spatially variable. And see the attached, where you can read Irwin Shapiro saying
<em><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">the speed of a light wave depends on the strength of the gravitational potential</span></em>. Hence optical clocks go slower when they’re lower.
</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">John: I’ve talked to Crothers, it was not productive. Particularly since I’m happy that black holes exist. There is something very small, very black, and very very massive in
the centre of our galaxy: </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"><img id="_x0000_i1026" alt="blackhole_smaller_300x225" src="cid:39145CBFBDCF4EF28AECB92C092A8912@HPlaptop" border="0" height="225" width="300"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">But see
<a href="http://mathpages.com/rr/s7-02/7-02.htm" target="_blank">The Formation and Growth of Black Holes</a> where Kevin Brown refers to the frozen-star interpretation. He doesn’t like it, but I think it’s correct. At the event horizon, the “coordinate” speed
of light is zero. The reason light doesn’t get out of the black hole isn’t because it’s redshifted to oblivion. But because it’s
<em><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">stopped</span></em>. And it can’t go slower than stopped. And since gravity is only there when the speed of light is spatially variable, there’s no more gravity. And no more collapse. And no black hole singularity.
</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">Martin: in our universe light isn’t stopped. But maybe 13.8 billion years ago, it was. Note that if the early universe was a “frozen star” universe, inflation is somewhat superfluous.
By the way, I thought <a href="http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/2014/12/01/physicist-paul-steinhardt-slams-inflation-cosmic-theory-he-helped-conceive/" target="_blank">
this</a> was a good read. And the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravastar" target="_blank">
gravastar</a> catches my eye because of the <em><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">void in the fabric of space and time</span></em>. Maybe 13.8 billion years ago, the whole universe was like that.
</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">Regards</span></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">John D</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black">
<a title="martin.van.der.mark@philips.com" href="mailto:martin.van.der.mark@philips.com" target="_blank">
Mark, Martin van der</a> </span></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black">Sent:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black"> Monday, February 23, 2015 10:52
PM</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black">To:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black">
<a title="general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank">
Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion</a> </span></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black">Subject:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black"> Re: [General] the edge of the
universe</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1f497d">Dear John,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1f497d">That is a fair question, I am a bit behind reading al the responses from people and think John has said something about it in the mean time.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1f497d">In any case I will come back to this later. There is more about blackholes that is not understood at al….</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1f497d">Erik Verlinde was talking about SPACE falling (not tables, light or grand pianos) into the hole inside the horizon! He may have made a slip of the tongue, and
it would certainly imply that it would be a lot harder to get out…</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1f497d">I will first think some more. And look a few things up.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1f497d">Note that in Newtonian gravitation, a blackhole’s event horizon is that position from where you cannot escape to infinity. A little deeper in the hole you can
still get out, but you must seriously hope for some Morons (or what are these dumb creatures called again? Ah Klingon!) to fly by and toss you a line.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1f497d">Must look up the general relativity event horizon…</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1f497d">Martin</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1f497d"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:navy" lang="DE">Dr. Martin B. van der Mark</span><span style="color:navy" lang="DE"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:navy">Principal Scientist, Minimally Invasive Healthcare</span><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:navy"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:navy"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:navy">Philips Research Europe - Eindhoven</span><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:navy"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:navy">High Tech Campus, Building 34 (WB2.025)</span><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:navy"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:navy">Prof. Holstlaan 4</span><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:navy"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:navy">5656 AE Eindhoven, The Netherlands</span><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:navy"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:navy">Tel: +31 40 2747548</span><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1f497d"></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1f497d"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black"> General [<a href="mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank">mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>John Duffield<br>
<b>Sent:</b> maandag 23 februari 2015 12:34<br>
<b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] the edge of the universe</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">Martin:</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">I tend to draw parallels between the universe and a black hole, but in my humble opinion there are some issues with the way black holes are usually described. I like to think
that this little gedankenexperiment helps to tease it out: </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">You're standing on a gedanken planet holding a laser pointer straight up. The light doesn't curve round, or slow down as it ascends, or fall down. It goes straight up. Now I wave my magic wand and make the planet
denser and more massive. The light still doesn't curve round, or slow down as it ascends, or fall down. I make the planet even denser and more massive. The light
<i>still</i> doesn't curve round, or slow down as it ascends, or fall down. I make the planet
<i>even</i> denser and more massive, and take it to the limit such that it's a black hole. At no point did the light ever curve round, or slow down as it ascends, or fall down. So
<i>why doesn't the light get out?</i></span><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">Regards</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">John D</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black">
<a title="martin.van.der.mark@philips.com" href="mailto:martin.van.der.mark@philips.com" target="_blank">
Mark, Martin van der</a> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black">Sent:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black"> Sunday, February 22, 2015 4:36 PM</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black">To:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black">
<a title="general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank">
Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion</a> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black">Subject:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black"> Re: [General] the edge of the
universe</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1f497d">Guys,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1f497d">The universe has an edge in some sense, it is in fact a black hole, nothing can escape (even by definition). It tries to expand, light it going outwards but
is held back just as in a “common” black hole.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1f497d">It is impossible to reach the edge. But would you manage to get there somehow, the new edge has shifted a bit further…it is our good old horizon again!</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1f497d">Cheers, Martin</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1f497d"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:navy" lang="DE">Dr. Martin B. van der Mark</span><span style="color:navy" lang="DE"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:navy">Principal Scientist, Minimally Invasive Healthcare</span><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:navy"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:navy"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:navy">Philips Research Europe - Eindhoven</span><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:navy"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:navy">High Tech Campus, Building 34 (WB2.025)</span><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:navy"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:navy">Prof. Holstlaan 4</span><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:navy"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:navy">5656 AE Eindhoven, The Netherlands</span><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:navy"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:navy">Tel: +31 40 2747548</span><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1f497d"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1f497d"></span></p>
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<div style="border-top:#b5c4df 1pt solid; border-right:medium none; border-bottom:medium none; padding-bottom:0cm; padding-top:3pt; padding-left:0cm; border-left:medium none; padding-right:0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black"> General [<a href="mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank">mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>John Duffield<br>
<b>Sent:</b> zondag 22 februari 2015 17:29<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] the edge of the universe</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">Chip:</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">Now you mention it, I think the universe has to have some kind of edge. I wrote something speculative about it
<a title="http://bogpaper.com/science-sundays-with-john-duffield-edge-of-the-universe/" href="http://bogpaper.com/science-sundays-with-john-duffield-edge-of-the-universe/" target="_blank">
here</a>. WMAP says the universe is flat, <a href="http://arxiv.org/abs/1303.5086" target="_blank">
Planck has found no evidence of any curvature or any toroidal topology</a> , and IMHO an infinite universe can not be an expanding universe, because then the energy-pressure would be counterbalanced at all locations. If it isn’t curved round on itself and if
it doesn’t go on forever, there’s not a lot of options left: it has to have some kind of edge. Such that there is no space beyond this edge, there
<em><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">is</span></em> no beyond it. As for what it’s like, I don’t know. Maybe the universe is some kind of hall-of-mirrors thing, like mentioned
<a title="http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/space/05/24/universe.wide/" href="http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/space/05/24/universe.wide/" target="_blank">
here</a>. Maybe there’s some kind of event horizon, maybe it’s none of the above, I don’t know. But what I do know is this: cosmologists use the surface of a sphere as an example of something without an edge, even though there is no evidence whatsoever of any
higher dimensionality. It occurs to me that they’re like the old flat-Earth guys in reverse. It is alleged that in ancient times people could not conceive of a world without an edge. Nowadays cosmologists can not conceive of a world
<em><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">with</span></em> an edge.
</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">Regards</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">John D</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black">
<a title="chipakins@gmail.com" href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com" target="_blank">
Chip Akins</a> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black">Sent:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black"> Sunday, February 22, 2015 3:43 PM</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black">To:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black">
<a title="general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank">
'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'</a> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black">Subject:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black"> Re: [General] gravitation</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Hi Stephen</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Thank you for the insight.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">What I am saying however, is that emission of a photon, may not be dependent on there being a pre-identified absorber. But rather, that if the local field conditions of the emitter allow emission in a specific
direction, then a photon could be emitted. The local field herein would be defined as the area around the emitter wherein the fields from absorbers are still strong enough to be even slightly sensed by the emitter.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Since we do not yet know if there is an “edge” to the universe (meaning an “edge” of space-time), nor do we know the nature of such an “edge” should it exist. It may not add clarity to our perceptions to try to
contemplate the possible actions of photons in that location. But my feeling is that, if we envision an edge exists, the void beyond would present no fields to an adjacent particle sufficiently close to that edge, and therefore no condition for emission would
be presented.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">What I am having some trouble digesting is the concept that, regardless of distance or time, an emitter and absorber are pre-identified prior to photon “exchange”. I understand the concept, but the implications
do not seem to be a description of our universe. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">For, if every photon in flight, at this instant, had identified its specific absorber prior to or at emission, then the exact location of all absorbers, the future position of every particle or atom, meaning our
exact fate, was known and established billions of years ago.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Is there another way to look at long distance photon “exchange” which does not present this problem?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Chip</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"> General [<a href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Stephen Leary<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, February 22, 2015 2:30 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] gravitation</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Hi Chip, </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">I request you add the following question to your thinking and see how it fits in. Consider matter at the "edge" of the universe (by that i mean that there is no matter beyond and make that explicit assumption).
Is that matter allowed/able to emit photons in any direction regardless of whether they are ever absorbed?</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">IMHO they cannot do this. Similarly for long distance photons I don't see the issue. It just reduces the likelyhood of interaction.
</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Regards</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Stephen</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 6:29 PM, Chip Akins <<a href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com" target="_blank">chipakins@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</span></p>
<blockquote style="border-top:medium none; border-right:medium none; border-bottom:medium none; padding-bottom:0cm; padding-top:0cm; padding-left:6pt; margin:5pt 0cm 5pt 4.8pt; border-left:#cccccc 1pt solid; padding-right:0cm">
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<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><b><span style="color:black">Hi All</span></b><span style="color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="color:black">Following John Duffield’s comments regarding photon’s relation to “time” and reading “The Other Meaning of Special Relativity”, still leaves a few questions (for my feeble mental processes), relating to
correlating theory to experiment.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="color:black">My approach has been precisely as described by Robert Close, regarding the photon constituted mass carrying particles, clearly displaying relativistic properties naturally, due to their wave (photon) structure.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="color:black">There appears to be a significant amount of evidence supporting such an approach.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="color:black">Underlying that approach, and as an implication of the results, is the suggestion that there is (even if we cannot detect it) a reference rest frame in space. Close therefore remarks,
<i>“What has not been generally recognized is that special relativity is a consequence of the wave nature of matter and is entirely consistent with classical notions of absolute space and time.”</i></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><i><span style="color:black"> </span></i><span style="color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="color:black">So, like John D., I am still looking for, and willing to exhaustively pursue, any possible explanations for experiment, which are built on such an approach, before abandoning such a robust, simple, and
elegant, causal approach. But I cannot ignore the compelling arguments from John Williamson, Martin van der Mark, Stephen Leary. So at this time certain issues remain (for me) unresolved.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="color:black">While our discussions of the photon and possible various relativistic interpretations, to describe experiment, are quite stimulating and thought provoking. In my current view, the idea that a photon can
feel its entire future, at one point in spacetime, raises more problems than it solves. While the “one point in spacetime” approach, may in fact turn out to be the actual nature of physics, I feel it is required to look for other explanations, and there are
many possibilities we can explore, before accepting any answer to best describe experiment.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><b><span style="color:black">Hi Stephen</span></b><span style="color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="color:black">Thank you for the analogy.
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="color:black">Of course to test any idea, we need to look at the full range of applications of the idea.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="color:black">I can understand the photon exchange, hinted by your analogy, for a distance which is easily within the field of the emitters and absorbers, or a distance where the mutual field strength is sufficiently
above the “background” noise floor. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="color:black">However for me it does not seem to hold for large distances. In other words, I feel that for close range photon exchange, the fields are sufficiently strong to have an influence on such photon exchange.
Tony Fleming has created a model for the hydrogen atom using a variation of such an approach, which is very accurate at predicting the properties of this atom. “<u>Electromagnetic Self-Field Theory and Its Application to the Hydrogen Atom</u>” Anthony Fleming
2005.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="color:black">However for very large distances, it seems to me that photon “exchange” is not a pre-required condition, and that photon emission is quite acceptable even if the eventual absorber is not already known
at emission. I do not yet feel, that a photon can only exist, if the absorber is already “known” by the photon.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><b><span style="color:black">Hi John D. </span></b><span style="color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="color:black">Thank you for the references to photon models.
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="color:black">Having toyed with certain photon models, the one described by Drozdov and Stahlhofen has been very close to my preferred model. But it leaves questions raised by some experimental observation unanswered.
However I have not looked closely at the full set of implications regarding the possibility that a viable photon model may also exist, encompassing multiples of its wavelength. To explore, we might be able to model the emission duration for certain events,
and compare that estimated duration to the emitted photon wavelength. Meanwhile, I will run some math to explore further.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><b><span style="color:black">Hi Chandra</span></b><span style="color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="color:black">I agree with your approach and comments regarding our quest.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="color:black">And referring directly to…</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><b><i><span style="font-size:11pt; color:black">“If we do not explicitly frame our questions to access reality of nature; we will never find it!”</span></i></b><span style="color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size:11pt; color:black"> </span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size:11pt; color:black">The group has begun addressing specific issues, from different viewpoints, which enhance our individual, and therefore collective, ability to look more clearly at the problems, and the
implications of different views, and therefore review the possibilities in a more complete manner.</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size:11pt; color:black"> </span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size:11pt; color:black">Thank you for your tremendous assistance and contribution to this process.</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size:11pt; color:black"> </span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><b><span style="font-size:11pt; color:black">All</span></b><span style="color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="color:black">It appears we have a consensus for material substance (mass carrying particles) from light.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="color:black">If we do have a consensus for building matter from light (photons), then it seems we must better understand the photon, for the photon then becomes the foundation for everything. So that misconceptions
in the understanding of the photon, would propagate to the entire concept.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="color:black">Chip</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border-top:#e1e1e1 1pt solid; border-right:medium none; border-bottom:medium none; padding-bottom:0cm; padding-top:3pt; padding-left:0cm; border-left:medium none; padding-right:0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><b><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"> General [mailto:<a href="mailto:general-bounces%2Bchipakins" target="_blank">general-bounces+chipakins</a>=<a href="mailto:gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank">gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>John Duffield<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, February 21, 2015 9:46 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] gravitation</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">Andrew:</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"> </span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">It’s a mystery to me why people don’t know about this kind of stuff. Einstein said
</span><span style="color:black"><a href="http://www.rain.org/~karpeles/einsteindis.html" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">a field is a state of space</span></a></span><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">.
Susskind said the same in his video lecture. And there aren’t two states of space where an electron is.</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"> </span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">As for the strong force, it’s supposed to be fundamental. So ask yourself this:
<em><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">where does the strong force go in low-energy proton-antiproton annihilation to gamma photons?
</span></em>And ask yourself this: <em><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">what is it that makes the electromagnetic wave propagate at c?</span></em> Alternatively, imagine you can hold this electron in your hands like a bagel.
</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"> </span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"><img id="_x0000_i1027" alt="toroidalphotonsmall" src="cid:1CC8209C05F14F1BB8AD8598070F6778@HPlaptop" border="0" height="192" width="265"></span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"> </span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">Imagine it’s elastic, like the bag model. Try to pull it apart. You will find that you cannot. You can’t pull this kiddie apart either:</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"> </span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"> </span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"><img id="_x0000_i1028" alt="trefoil" src="cid:C22717EA08FD42BFB819F7D3918EFBF0@HPlaptop" border="0" height="229" width="229"></span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"> </span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">It’s made of three parts, three partons. See
</span><span style="color:black"><a title="http://www.ipmu.jp/webfm_send/1053" href="http://www.ipmu.jp/webfm_send/1053" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">http://www.ipmu.jp/webfm_send/1053</span></a></span><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">
and note page 11 where Witten mentions knot crossings? Trace round it clockwise starting at the bottom left calling out the crossing-over directions:
<em><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">up up down</span></em>. When you do eventually break this thing, you don’t see three things flying free.
</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"> </span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">Regards</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">John D
</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"> </span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black"> </span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black">
</span><span style="color:black"><a title="mules333@gmail.com" href="mailto:mules333@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">Andrew Meulenberg</span></a></span><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black">
</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black">Sent:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black"> Saturday, February 21, 2015 6:41
AM</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black">To:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black">
</span><span style="color:black"><a title="general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">Nature of Light and Particles -
General Discussion</span></a></span><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black">
</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black">Subject:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black"> [General] gravitation</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"> </span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">Dear John D,</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">I wonder why this concept has not been developed?</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"> </span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<div style="margin-left:30pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">"The clockwise and anticlockwise twists don’t quite cancel. The rubber sheet is subject to a tension that diminishes with distance. That represents
the hydrogen atom’s gravitational field."</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">I came to this conclusion several years ago that gravitation was the long-range, non-torsional, 'residue' of the strong EM fields composing the net-neutral
charge fields of matter. This came from thinking (non-mathematically) about the differences between the E & M forces as distortions of space & how relativity affects them.</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">I hope to write-up a paper on strong-gravity (after the conference in August), that describes the nuclear strong force as resulting from the interacting
short-range (multipole) fields of the relativistic electron-positron 'clusters' (triplets?) called quarks.</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">Andrew</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
</div>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">-- </span></p>
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