<HTML dir=ltr><HEAD>
<META content="text/html; charset=Windows-1252" http-equiv=Content-Type>
<STYLE>
<!--
-->
</STYLE>
<STYLE>
<!--
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma}
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{color:purple;
text-decoration:underline}
p
{margin-right:0cm;
margin-left:0cm;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"}
p.MsoAcetate, li.MsoAcetate, div.MsoAcetate
{margin:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:8.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"}
span.BalloonTextChar
{font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"}
span.EmailStyle20
{color:black}
span.EmailStyle21
{font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D}
span.EmailStyle22
{font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D}
span.EmailStyle23
{color:black}
span.EmailStyle25
{font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D}
.MsoChpDefault
{font-size:10.0pt}
@page WordSection1
{margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt}
-->
</STYLE>
<STYLE id=owaParaStyle type=text/css>P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}</STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY lang=EN-US dir=ltr link=blue vLink=purple ocsi="0" fpstyle="1">
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000">
<DIV>John:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If you were right next to the upper parallel-mirror light clock, you would
measure the speed of light to be 299,792,458 m/s. </DIV>
<DIV>If you were right next to the lower parallel-mirror light clock, you would
measure the speed of light to be <FONT style="face: tahoma">299,792,458 m/s.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><IMG title=parallel style="DISPLAY: inline" alt=parallel
src="cid:2A2C6EDD467845509D435E361939F62F@HPlaptop" width=133 height=196></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>But those two speeds are not the same. If they were, the clocks would stay
synchronised, and they don’t. You <EM>say</EM> the speeds are the same because
you define your distance and time using the local motion of light. Then you use
them to measure... the local motion of light! </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>As for the Don Koks article, he wrote it after I contacted him about the
previous version. Here it is: <A
title=http://www.desy.de/user/projects/Physics/Relativity/SpeedOfLight/speed_of_light.html
href="http://www.desy.de/user/projects/Physics/Relativity/SpeedOfLight/speed_of_light.html">http://www.desy.de/user/projects/Physics/Relativity/SpeedOfLight/speed_of_light.html</A>.
See this in the general relativity section:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><EM>”Einstein went on to discover a more general theory of relativity which
explained gravity in terms of curved spacetime, and he talked about the speed of
light changing in this new theory. In the 1920 book "Relativity: the
special and general theory" he wrote: . . . according to the general theory of
relativity, the law of the constancy of the velocity of light in vacuo, which
constitutes one of the two fundamental assumptions in the special theory of
relativity [. . .] cannot claim any unlimited validity. A curvature of
rays of light can only take place when the velocity of propagation of light
varies with position. Since Einstein talks of velocity (a vector quantity:
speed with direction) rather than speed alone, <STRONG>it is not clear that he
meant the speed will change, but the reference to special relativity suggests
that he did mean so. This interpretation is perfectly valid and makes good
physical sense, but a more modern interpretation is that the speed of light is
constant in general relativity</STRONG>.”</EM></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>And see the final line: </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><EM><STRONG>Finally, we come to the conclusion that the speed of light is
not only observed to be constant; in the light of well tested theories of
physics, it does not even make any sense to say that it
varies.</STRONG> </EM></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Only it does. The speed of light varies in the room you’re in. If it
didn’t, light would curve and your pencil wouldn’t fall down. And this is one of
the most important things in physics. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I’ll answer your other email later. The issue all to do with <EM>what
clocks measure.</EM> <FONT face=Tahoma><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Regards</DIV>
<DIV>John</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000"></DIV>
<DIV
style='FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt tahoma">
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A
title=John.Williamson@glasgow.ac.uk
href="mailto:John.Williamson@glasgow.ac.uk">John Williamson</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, February 25, 2015 1:09 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">Nature of Light and
Particles - General Discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [General] Black holes</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style='FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma; COLOR: #000000; DIRECTION: ltr">John
D ..<BR><BR>Just checked the Baez page you refer to. The first thing it says is
..<BR><BR>"The short answer is that it depends on who is doing the measuring:
the speed of light is only guaranteed to have a value of 299,792,458 m/s in a
vacuum when measured by someone situated right next to it."<BR><BR>Just as I
said!<BR><BR>This would have saved me the trouble of writing some of that shit
if I had looked at it before!<BR><BR>Cheers, John.<BR>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 16px; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman; COLOR: #000000">
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<DIV id=divRpF689168 style="DIRECTION: ltr"><FONT color=#000000 size=2
face=Tahoma><B>From:</B> General
[general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org]
on behalf of John Duffield [johnduffield@btconnect.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B>
Wednesday, February 25, 2015 10:06 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Nature of Light and
Particles - General Discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [General] Black
holes<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000">
<DIV>Martin:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>With respect, I must challenge you on the speed of light, because it is of
crucial importance. Yes, it is generally taught that the speed of light is
constant, but it’s a <A href="http://arxiv.org/abs/0705.4507"
target=_blank>tautology</A>, a myth, and it contradicts <A
href="http://einsteinpapers.press.princeton.edu/vol7-trans/156?highlightText=%22speed%20of%20light%22"
target=_blank>Einstein</A>, and Irwin <A
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shapiro_delay" target=_blank>Shapiro</A>, and
others. See for example <A
href="http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SpeedOfLight/speed_of_light.html"
target=_blank>this</A> Baez page where Don Koks says this:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><EM>Einstein talked about the speed of light changing in his new
theory. In the English translation of his 1920 book "Relativity: the
special and general theory" he wrote: "according to the general theory of
relativity, the law of the constancy of the velocity [Einstein clearly means
speed here, since velocity (a vector) is not in keeping with the rest of his
sentence] of light in vacuo, which constitutes one of the two fundamental
assumptions in the special theory of relativity [...] cannot claim any unlimited
validity. A curvature of rays of light can only take place when the
velocity [speed] of propagation of light varies with position." This
difference in speeds is precisely that referred to above by ceiling and floor
observers.</EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM></EM> </DIV>
<DIV>Or see Ned Wright’s <A
href="http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/deflection-delay.html"
target=_blank>deflection and delay of light</A> and note this: <I
style="LIST-STYLE-TYPE: decimal">"In a very real sense, the delay experienced by
light passing a massive object is responsible for the deflection of the
light”</I>. Light doesn’t curve because spacetime is curved. That confuses cause
and effect. Einstein never said that. It curves because <A
href="https://bogpaper.wordpress.com/2013/10/06/science-sundays-with-john-duffield-speed-of-light/"
target=_blank>the speed of light varies with position</A>. It curves like <A
href="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/es310/SNR_PROP/snr_prop.htm"
rel=nofollow target=_blank>sonar waves curve</A><FONT color=#0066cc></FONT><FONT
face="Times New Roman"><FONT face=Calibri>. </FONT></FONT>Moreover the myth
contradicts the patent blatant scientific evidence. You’ll be aware that the <A
href="http://www.learner.org/courses/physics/scientist/transcripts/wineland.html"
target=_blank>NIST optical clock</A> goes slower when its lower. The same
is true for the idealized parallel-mirror light clock used <A
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation#Simple_inference_of_time_dilation_due_to_relative_velocity"
target=_blank>extensively in relativity</A>. The lower clock goes slower. And
there is no actual time passing or flowing anywhere. Now look at the two light
pulses in the picture below. Are they going at the same speed? </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><IMG title=parallel style="DISPLAY: inline" alt=parallel
src="cid:004426A9D2BA4E24AAE29BFABC6EDBB6@HPlaptop" width=133 height=196></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The answer is <EM>no</EM>. The lower pulse goes slower. But <EM>you would
not know if you were there</EM>, because you go slower too, because <EM>you are
made of light</EM>. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Regards</DIV>
<DIV>John D</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000"></DIV>
<DIV
style='FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt tahoma">
<DIV><FONT size=3 face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV><B>From:</B> <A title=martin.van.der.mark@philips.com
href="mailto:martin.van.der.mark@philips.com" target=_blank>Mark, Martin van
der</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, February 24, 2015 9:56 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target=_blank>Nature
of Light and Particles - General Discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [General] Black holes</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style='FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV class=WordSection1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: #1f497d'>Chip,
if John is confusing you, don’t worry. It is a mixture of half arguments
interesting points of vieuw and flaws. (Sorry John, forget about Major Tom, let
him crash) Too many to debunk here, it is like explaining 10 Perpetuum
mobiles at once, but I will say something about the most important
one.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: #1f497d'>The
speed of light, for example. It is always c. space may be denser close to a
large mass, but you would not know if you are there. If light seems slower, one
way or another, you are comparing to a geometry that does not apply. If it comes
later (notice the subtlety here please) it may have travelled through dense
space, like a block of glass or a gravitational field. Now things change a bit
when we start moving with respect to inhomogeneities like this. That’s for
later.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: #1f497d'>Regards,
Martin</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: #1f497d'></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=DE
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial","sans-serif"; COLOR: navy'>Dr.
Martin B. van der Mark</SPAN><SPAN lang=DE style="COLOR: navy"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial","sans-serif"; COLOR: navy'>Principal
Scientist, Minimally Invasive Healthcare</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: navy'></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: navy'></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial","sans-serif"; COLOR: navy'>Philips
Research Europe - Eindhoven</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: navy'></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial","sans-serif"; COLOR: navy'>High
Tech Campus, Building 34 (WB2.025)</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: navy'></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial","sans-serif"; COLOR: navy'>Prof.
Holstlaan 4</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: navy'></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial","sans-serif"; COLOR: navy'>5656
AE Eindhoven, The Netherlands</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: navy'></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial","sans-serif"; COLOR: navy'>Tel: +31
40 2747548</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: #1f497d'></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: #1f497d'></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"'> General
[mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>John Duffield<BR><B>Sent:</B> dinsdag 24 februari 2015
15:48<BR><B>To:</B> 'Nature of Light and Particles - General
Discussion'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [General] Black holes</SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>Chip:</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>It gets even more
interesting than that. See <A
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Firewall_(physics)&oldid=587309921"
target=_blank>an old version of the Wikipedia Firewall article</A>. See the
mention of Winterberg? That’s Friedwardt Winterberg. You know how Einstein said
<A
href="http://einsteinpapers.press.princeton.edu/vol7-trans/156?highlightText=%22speed%20of%20light%22"
target=_blank>light curves because the speed of light is spatially variable</A>,
and I said the reducing speed of light bleeds internal kinetic out of the
electron into macroscopic kinetic energy? </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'><IMG id=_x0000_i1025
border=0 alt=electronfall src="cid:4FB6B5A400CD47B09962B7117317C79B@HPlaptop"
width=247 height=197></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>Well, guess what? It
can’t keep doing this forever. There comes a point when the electron’s falling
speed would be greater than the local coordinate speed of light. And the
electron is made out of light. It can’t go faster than light, because
it<EM><SPAN style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"'> is</SPAN></EM> light.
But falling bodies keep on accelerating, because the speed of light is spatially
variable. So something’s got to give. And there’s only one thing that <EM><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"'>can</SPAN></EM> give. The electron.
See Friedwardt Winterberg’s paper attached. It’s about gamma ray bursters. If
you fell into a black hole, you’d never make it to the event horizon. IMHO all
the stuff you hear about the <A
href="http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19225751.200-the-elephant-and-the-event-horizon.html"
target=_blank>elephant being in two places at once</A> is a load of old
cobblers. And as for the information paradox and the AMPS firewall and Hawking
radiation, I couldn’t possibly comment. </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>Regards</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>John</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'> <A
title=chipakins@gmail.com href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com" target=_blank>Chip
Akins</A> </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>
Tuesday, February 24, 2015 1:57 PM</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'> <A
title=general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target=_blank>'Nature
of Light and Particles - General Discussion'</A> </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'> Re:
[General] Black holes</SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN> </P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Hi John D</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Very interesting thought about
gravity not existing in any space where light cannot be slowed.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Regarding… “</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>The reason light
doesn’t get out of the black hole isn’t because it’s redshifted to oblivion. But
because it’s <EM><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"'>stopped</SPAN></EM>.”</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>It seems redshifted to
oblivion and stopped, are the same thing. (With one slight exception, the energy
of the photon remains, so perhaps oblivion is not the correct word.)</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>Chip</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-TOP: #e1e1e1 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>
General [<A
href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target=_blank>mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>John Duffield<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, February 24, 2015
7:40 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Nature of Light and Particles - General
Discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [General] Black holes</SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>Martin/John/All:</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>This thing about space
falling inward is called the <A
href="http://jila.colorado.edu/~ajsh/insidebh/waterfall.html"
target=_blank>waterfall analogy</A>. <EM><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"'>Spit</SPAN></EM>. It is popscience
cargo-cult garbage that bears no relation to Einstein’s general relativity or
hard scientific evidence. Note the energy-pressure diagonal in the <A
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress%E2%80%93energy_tensor"
target=_blank>stress-energy-momentum tensor</A>? A gravitational field is akin
to an “energy-pressure gradient in space” that alters the motion of light and
matter through space. But it does not make space move inwards. We do <EM><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"'>not</SPAN></EM> live in some
Chicken-Little world. The sky is <EM><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"'>not</SPAN></EM> falling in. Like
Einstein said, light curves because the speed of light is spatially variable.
And see the attached, where you can read Irwin Shapiro saying <EM><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"'>the speed of a light wave depends on
the strength of the gravitational potential</SPAN></EM>. Hence optical clocks go
slower when they’re lower. </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>John: I’ve talked to
Crothers, it was not productive. Particularly since I’m happy that black holes
exist. There is something very small, very black, and very very massive in the
centre of our galaxy: </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'><IMG id=_x0000_i1026
border=0 alt=blackhole_smaller_300x225
src="cid:E0F6D074C8244879BB21C5416397FFB3@HPlaptop" width=300
height=225></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>But see <A
href="http://mathpages.com/rr/s7-02/7-02.htm" target=_blank>The Formation and
Growth of Black Holes</A> where Kevin Brown refers to the frozen-star
interpretation. He doesn’t like it, but I think it’s correct. At the event
horizon, the “coordinate” speed of light is zero. The reason light doesn’t get
out of the black hole isn’t because it’s redshifted to oblivion. But because
it’s <EM><SPAN style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"'>stopped</SPAN></EM>.
And it can’t go slower than stopped. And since gravity is only there when the
speed of light is spatially variable, there’s no more gravity. And no more
collapse. And no black hole singularity. </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>Martin: in our
universe light isn’t stopped. But maybe 13.8 billion years ago, it was. Note
that if the early universe was a “frozen star” universe, inflation is somewhat
superfluous. By the way, I thought <A
href="http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/2014/12/01/physicist-paul-steinhardt-slams-inflation-cosmic-theory-he-helped-conceive/"
target=_blank>this</A> was a good read. And the <A
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravastar" target=_blank>gravastar</A>
catches my eye because of the <EM><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"'>void in the fabric of space and
time</SPAN></EM>. Maybe 13.8 billion years ago, the whole universe was like
that. </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>Regards</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>John
D</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'> <A
title=martin.van.der.mark@philips.com
href="mailto:martin.van.der.mark@philips.com" target=_blank>Mark, Martin van
der</A> </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>
Monday, February 23, 2015 10:52 PM</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'> <A
title=general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target=_blank>Nature
of Light and Particles - General Discussion</A> </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'> Re:
[General] the edge of the universe</SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN> </P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: #1f497d'>Dear
John,</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: #1f497d'>That
is a fair question, I am a bit behind reading al the responses from people and
think John has said something about it in the mean time.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: #1f497d'>In
any case I will come back to this later. There is more about blackholes that is
not understood at al….</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: #1f497d'>Erik
Verlinde was talking about SPACE falling (not tables, light or grand pianos)
into the hole inside the horizon! He may have made a slip of the tongue, and it
would certainly imply that it would be a lot harder to get out…</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: #1f497d'>I
will first think some more. And look a few things up.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: #1f497d'>Note
that in Newtonian gravitation, a blackhole’s event horizon is that position from
where you cannot escape to infinity. A little deeper in the hole you can still
get out, but you must seriously hope for some Morons (or what are these dumb
creatures called again? Ah Klingon!) to fly by and toss you a line.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: #1f497d'>Must
look up the general relativity event horizon…</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: #1f497d'>Martin</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: #1f497d'></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=DE
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial","sans-serif"; COLOR: navy'>Dr.
Martin B. van der Mark</SPAN><SPAN lang=DE style="COLOR: navy"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial","sans-serif"; COLOR: navy'>Principal
Scientist, Minimally Invasive Healthcare</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: navy'></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: navy'></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial","sans-serif"; COLOR: navy'>Philips
Research Europe - Eindhoven</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: navy'></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial","sans-serif"; COLOR: navy'>High
Tech Campus, Building 34 (WB2.025)</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: navy'></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial","sans-serif"; COLOR: navy'>Prof.
Holstlaan 4</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: navy'></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial","sans-serif"; COLOR: navy'>5656
AE Eindhoven, The Netherlands</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: navy'></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial","sans-serif"; COLOR: navy'>Tel: +31
40 2747548</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: #1f497d'></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: #1f497d'></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>
General [<A
href="mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target=_blank>mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>John Duffield<BR><B>Sent:</B> maandag 23 februari 2015
12:34<BR><B>To:</B> Nature of Light and Particles - General
Discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [General] the edge of the
universe</SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>Martin:</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>I tend to draw
parallels between the universe and a black hole, but in my humble opinion there
are some issues with the way black holes are usually described. I like to think
that this little gedankenexperiment helps to tease it out: </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">You're standing on a gedanken
planet holding a laser pointer straight up. The light doesn't curve round, or
slow down as it ascends, or fall down. It goes straight up. Now I wave my magic
wand and make the planet denser and more massive. The light still doesn't curve
round, or slow down as it ascends, or fall down. I make the planet even denser
and more massive. The light <I>still</I> doesn't curve round, or slow down as it
ascends, or fall down. I make the planet <I>even</I> denser and more massive,
and take it to the limit such that it's a black hole. At no point did the light
ever curve round, or slow down as it ascends, or fall down. So <I>why doesn't
the light get out?</I></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>Regards</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>John
D</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'> <A
title=martin.van.der.mark@philips.com
href="mailto:martin.van.der.mark@philips.com" target=_blank>Mark, Martin van
der</A> </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>
Sunday, February 22, 2015 4:36 PM</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'> <A
title=general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target=_blank>Nature
of Light and Particles - General Discussion</A> </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'> Re:
[General] the edge of the universe</SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN> </P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: #1f497d'>Guys,</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: #1f497d'>The
universe has an edge in some sense, it is in fact a black hole, nothing can
escape (even by definition). It tries to expand, light it going outwards but is
held back just as in a “common” black hole.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: #1f497d'>It
is impossible to reach the edge. But would you manage to get there somehow, the
new edge has shifted a bit further…it is our good old horizon again!</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: #1f497d'>Cheers,
Martin</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: #1f497d'></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=DE
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial","sans-serif"; COLOR: navy'>Dr.
Martin B. van der Mark</SPAN><SPAN lang=DE style="COLOR: navy"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial","sans-serif"; COLOR: navy'>Principal
Scientist, Minimally Invasive Healthcare</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: navy'></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: navy'></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial","sans-serif"; COLOR: navy'>Philips
Research Europe - Eindhoven</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: navy'></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial","sans-serif"; COLOR: navy'>High
Tech Campus, Building 34 (WB2.025)</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: navy'></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial","sans-serif"; COLOR: navy'>Prof.
Holstlaan 4</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: navy'></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial","sans-serif"; COLOR: navy'>5656
AE Eindhoven, The Netherlands</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: navy'></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial","sans-serif"; COLOR: navy'>Tel: +31
40 2747548</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: #1f497d'></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: #1f497d'></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>
General [<A
href="mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target=_blank>mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>John Duffield<BR><B>Sent:</B> zondag 22 februari 2015
17:29<BR><B>To:</B> 'Nature of Light and Particles - General
Discussion'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [General] the edge of the
universe</SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>Chip:</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>Now you mention it, I
think the universe has to have some kind of edge. I wrote something speculative
about it <A
title=http://bogpaper.com/science-sundays-with-john-duffield-edge-of-the-universe/
href="http://bogpaper.com/science-sundays-with-john-duffield-edge-of-the-universe/"
target=_blank>here</A>. WMAP says the universe is flat, <A
href="http://arxiv.org/abs/1303.5086" target=_blank>Planck has found no evidence
of any curvature or any toroidal topology</A> , and IMHO an infinite universe
can not be an expanding universe, because then the energy-pressure would be
counterbalanced at all locations. If it isn’t curved round on itself and if it
doesn’t go on forever, there’s not a lot of options left: it has to have some
kind of edge. Such that there is no space beyond this edge, there <EM><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"'>is</SPAN></EM> no beyond it. As for
what it’s like, I don’t know. Maybe the universe is some kind of hall-of-mirrors
thing, like mentioned <A
title=http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/space/05/24/universe.wide/
href="http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/space/05/24/universe.wide/"
target=_blank>here</A>. Maybe there’s some kind of event horizon, maybe it’s
none of the above, I don’t know. But what I do know is this: cosmologists use
the surface of a sphere as an example of something without an edge, even though
there is no evidence whatsoever of any higher dimensionality. It occurs to me
that they’re like the old flat-Earth guys in reverse. It is alleged that in
ancient times people could not conceive of a world without an edge. Nowadays
cosmologists can not conceive of a world <EM><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"'>with</SPAN></EM> an
edge. </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>Regards</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>John
D</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'> <A
title=chipakins@gmail.com href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com" target=_blank>Chip
Akins</A> </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>
Sunday, February 22, 2015 3:43 PM</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'> <A
title=general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target=_blank>'Nature
of Light and Particles - General Discussion'</A> </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'> Re:
[General] gravitation</SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN> </P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Hi Stephen</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Thank you for the
insight.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">What I am saying however, is that
emission of a photon, may not be dependent on there being a pre-identified
absorber. But rather, that if the local field conditions of the emitter allow
emission in a specific direction, then a photon could be emitted. The local
field herein would be defined as the area around the emitter wherein the fields
from absorbers are still strong enough to be even slightly sensed by the
emitter.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Since we do not yet know if there
is an “edge” to the universe (meaning an “edge” of space-time), nor do we know
the nature of such an “edge” should it exist. It may not add clarity to our
perceptions to try to contemplate the possible actions of photons in that
location. But my feeling is that, if we envision an edge exists, the void beyond
would present no fields to an adjacent particle sufficiently close to that edge,
and therefore no condition for emission would be presented.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">What I am having some trouble
digesting is the concept that, regardless of distance or time, an emitter and
absorber are pre-identified prior to photon “exchange”. I understand the
concept, but the implications do not seem to be a description of our universe.
</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">For, if every photon in flight, at
this instant, had identified its specific absorber prior to or at emission, then
the exact location of all absorbers, the future position of every particle or
atom, meaning our exact fate, was known and established billions of years
ago.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Is there another way to look at
long distance photon “exchange” which does not present this problem?</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Chip</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>
General [<A
href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target=_blank>mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Stephen Leary<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, February 22, 2015 2:30
AM<BR><B>To:</B> Nature of Light and Particles - General
Discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [General] gravitation</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Hi Chip, </SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">I request you add the following
question to your thinking and see how it fits in. Consider matter at the "edge"
of the universe (by that i mean that there is no matter beyond and make that
explicit assumption). Is that matter allowed/able to emit photons in any
direction regardless of whether they are ever absorbed?</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">IMHO they cannot do this.
Similarly for long distance photons I don't see the issue. It just reduces the
likelyhood of interaction. </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Regards</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Stephen</SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 6:29 PM,
Chip Akins <<A href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com"
target=_blank>chipakins@gmail.com</A>> wrote:</SPAN></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 6pt; MARGIN: 5pt 0cm 5pt 4.8pt; BORDER-LEFT: #cccccc 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm">
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Hi All</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Following John Duffield’s
comments regarding photon’s relation to “time” and reading “The Other Meaning
of Special Relativity”, still leaves a few questions (for my feeble mental
processes), relating to correlating theory to experiment.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">My approach has been precisely
as described by Robert Close, regarding the photon constituted mass carrying
particles, clearly displaying relativistic properties naturally, due to their
wave (photon) structure.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">There appears to be a
significant amount of evidence supporting such an approach.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Underlying that approach, and as
an implication of the results, is the suggestion that there is (even if we
cannot detect it) a reference rest frame in space. Close therefore remarks,
<I>“What has not been generally recognized is that special relativity is a
consequence of the wave nature of matter and is entirely consistent with
classical notions of absolute space and time.”</I></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></I><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">So, like John D., I am still
looking for, and willing to exhaustively pursue, any possible explanations for
experiment, which are built on such an approach, before abandoning such a
robust, simple, and elegant, causal approach. But I cannot ignore the
compelling arguments from John Williamson, Martin van der Mark, Stephen Leary.
So at this time certain issues remain (for me) unresolved.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">While our discussions of the
photon and possible various relativistic interpretations, to describe
experiment, are quite stimulating and thought provoking. In my current
view, the idea that a photon can feel its entire future, at one point in
spacetime, raises more problems than it solves. While the “one point in
spacetime” approach, may in fact turn out to be the actual nature of physics,
I feel it is required to look for other explanations, and there are many
possibilities we can explore, before accepting any answer to best describe
experiment.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Hi Stephen</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Thank you for the analogy.
</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Of course to test any idea, we
need to look at the full range of applications of the idea.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">I can understand the photon
exchange, hinted by your analogy, for a distance which is easily within the
field of the emitters and absorbers, or a distance where the mutual field
strength is sufficiently above the “background” noise floor. </SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">However for me it does not seem
to hold for large distances. In other words, I feel that for close range
photon exchange, the fields are sufficiently strong to have an influence on
such photon exchange. Tony Fleming has created a model for the hydrogen
atom using a variation of such an approach, which is very accurate at
predicting the properties of this atom. “<U>Electromagnetic Self-Field Theory
and Its Application to the Hydrogen Atom</U>” Anthony Fleming 2005.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">However for very large
distances, it seems to me that photon “exchange” is not a pre-required
condition, and that photon emission is quite acceptable even if the eventual
absorber is not already known at emission. I do not yet feel, that a photon
can only exist, if the absorber is already “known” by the photon.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Hi John D.
</SPAN></B><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Thank you for the references to
photon models. </SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Having toyed with certain photon
models, the one described by Drozdov and Stahlhofen has been very close to my
preferred model. But it leaves questions raised by some experimental
observation unanswered. However I have not looked closely at the
full set of implications regarding the possibility that a viable photon model
may also exist, encompassing multiples of its wavelength. To explore, we might
be able to model the emission duration for certain events, and compare that
estimated duration to the emitted photon wavelength. Meanwhile, I will
run some math to explore further.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Hi Chandra</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">I agree with your approach and
comments regarding our quest.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">And referring directly
to…</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><I><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black">“If we do
not explicitly frame our questions to access reality of nature; we will never
find it!”</SPAN></I></B><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black"></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black">The group has
begun addressing specific issues, from different viewpoints, which enhance our
individual, and therefore collective, ability to look more clearly at the
problems, and the implications of different views, and therefore review the
possibilities in a more complete manner.</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black"></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black">Thank you for
your tremendous assistance and contribution to this process.</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black"></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black">All</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">It appears we have a consensus
for material substance (mass carrying particles) from light.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">If we do have a consensus for
building matter from light (photons), then it seems we must better understand
the photon, for the photon then becomes the foundation for everything. So that
misconceptions in the understanding of the photon, would propagate to the
entire concept.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Chip</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-TOP: #e1e1e1 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>
General [mailto:<A href="mailto:general-bounces%2Bchipakins"
target=_blank>general-bounces+chipakins</A>=<A
href="mailto:gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target=_blank>gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</A>] <B>On Behalf
Of </B>John Duffield<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, February 21, 2015 9:46
AM<BR><B>To:</B> Nature of Light and Particles - General
Discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [General] gravitation</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>Andrew:</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>It’s a mystery to me
why people don’t know about this kind of stuff. Einstein said </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><A href="http://www.rain.org/~karpeles/einsteindis.html"
target=_blank><SPAN style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"'>a field is a
state of space</SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>. Susskind said the
same in his video lecture. And there aren’t two states of space where an
electron is.</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>As for the strong
force, it’s supposed to be fundamental. So ask yourself this: <EM><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"'>where does the strong force go in
low-energy proton-antiproton annihilation to gamma photons? </SPAN></EM>And
ask yourself this: <EM><SPAN style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"'>what
is it that makes the electromagnetic wave propagate at c?</SPAN></EM>
Alternatively, imagine you can hold this electron in your hands like a bagel.
</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'><IMG id=_x0000_i1027
border=0 alt=toroidalphotonsmall
src="cid:AD2CE954813C40E8B3C80BAEA1C7856D@HPlaptop" width=265
height=192></SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>Imagine it’s
elastic, like the bag model. Try to pull it apart. You will find that you
cannot. You can’t pull this kiddie apart either:</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'><IMG id=_x0000_i1028
border=0 alt=trefoil src="cid:A46F6224C8C8438E8A3D2899DFFC3F50@HPlaptop"
width=229 height=229></SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>It’s made of three
parts, three partons. See </SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><A
title=http://www.ipmu.jp/webfm_send/1053
href="http://www.ipmu.jp/webfm_send/1053" target=_blank><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"'>http://www.ipmu.jp/webfm_send/1053</SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'> and note page 11
where Witten mentions knot crossings? Trace round it clockwise starting at the
bottom left calling out the crossing-over directions: <EM><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"'>up up down</SPAN></EM>. When you
do eventually break this thing, you don’t see three things flying free.
</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>Regards</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>John D </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>
</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><A title=mules333@gmail.com
href="mailto:mules333@gmail.com" target=_blank><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Andrew
Meulenberg</SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>
</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>
Saturday, February 21, 2015 6:41 AM</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>
</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><A
title=general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target=_blank><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Nature of Light
and Particles - General Discussion</SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>
</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>
[General] gravitation</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>Dear John
D,</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>I wonder why this
concept has not been developed?</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-LEFT: 30pt">
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>"The clockwise and
anticlockwise twists don’t quite cancel. The rubber sheet is subject to a
tension that diminishes with distance. That represents the hydrogen atom’s
gravitational field."</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>I came to this
conclusion several years ago that gravitation was the long-range,
non-torsional, 'residue' of the strong EM fields composing the net-neutral
charge fields of matter. This came from thinking (non-mathematically) about
the differences between the E & M forces as distortions of space & how
relativity affects them.</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>I hope to write-up a
paper on strong-gravity (after the conference in August), that describes the
nuclear strong force as resulting from the interacting short-range (multipole)
fields of the relativistic electron-positron 'clusters' (triplets?) called
quarks.</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>Andrew</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>
<HR align=center SIZE=2 width="100%">
</SPAN></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>_______________________________________________<BR>If
you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light and
Particles General Discussion List at </SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><A
href="mailto:johnduffield@btconnect.com" target=_blank><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"'>johnduffield@btconnect.com</SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'><BR><a
href="</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><A
href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/johnduffield%40btconnect.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1"
target=_blank><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"'>http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/johnduffield%40btconnect.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1</SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>"><BR>Click here
to unsubscribe<BR></a></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>If
you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light and
Particles General Discussion List at <A href="mailto:sleary@vavi.co.uk"
target=_blank>sleary@vavi.co.uk</A><BR><a href="<A
href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/sleary%40vavi.co.uk?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1"
target=_blank>http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/sleary%40vavi.co.uk?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1</A>"><BR>Click
here to unsubscribe<BR></a></SPAN></P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><BR><BR clear=all></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">-- </SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Stephen
Leary</SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>
<HR align=center SIZE=2 width="100%">
</SPAN></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>_______________________________________________<BR>If
you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light and
Particles General Discussion List at <A href="mailto:johnduffield@btconnect.com"
target=_blank>johnduffield@btconnect.com</A><BR><a href="<A
href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/johnduffield%40btconnect.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1"
target=_blank>http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/johnduffield%40btconnect.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1</A>"><BR>Click
here to unsubscribe<BR></a></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN> </P>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>
<HR align=center SIZE=2 width="100%">
</SPAN></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial","sans-serif"; COLOR: gray'>The
information contained in this message may be confidential and legally protected
under applicable law. The message is intended solely for the addressee(s). If
you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use,
forwarding, dissemination, or reproduction of this message is strictly
prohibited and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please
contact the sender by return e-mail and destroy all copies of the original
message.</SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'></SPAN></P>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>
<HR align=center SIZE=2 width="100%">
</SPAN></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>_______________________________________________<BR>If
you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light and
Particles General Discussion List at <A href="mailto:johnduffield@btconnect.com"
target=_blank>johnduffield@btconnect.com</A><BR><a href="<A
href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/johnduffield%40btconnect.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1"
target=_blank>http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/johnduffield%40btconnect.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1</A>"><BR>Click
here to unsubscribe<BR></a></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>
<HR align=center SIZE=2 width="100%">
</SPAN></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>_______________________________________________<BR>If
you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light and
Particles General Discussion List at <A href="mailto:johnduffield@btconnect.com"
target=_blank>johnduffield@btconnect.com</A><BR><a href="<A
href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/johnduffield%40btconnect.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1"
target=_blank>http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/johnduffield%40btconnect.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1</A>"><BR>Click
here to unsubscribe<BR></a></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>
<HR align=center SIZE=2 width="100%">
</SPAN></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: black'>_______________________________________________<BR>If
you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light and
Particles General Discussion List at <A href="mailto:johnduffield@btconnect.com"
target=_blank>johnduffield@btconnect.com</A><BR><a href="<A
href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/johnduffield%40btconnect.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1"
target=_blank>http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/johnduffield%40btconnect.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1</A>"><BR>Click
here to unsubscribe<BR></a></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<HR>
_______________________________________________<BR>If you no longer wish to
receive communication from the Nature of Light and Particles General Discussion
List at johnduffield@btconnect.com<BR><a
href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/johnduffield%40btconnect.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1"><BR>Click
here to unsubscribe<BR></a><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<P>
<HR>
_______________________________________________<BR>If you no longer wish to
receive communication from the Nature of Light and Particles General Discussion
List at johnduffield@btconnect.com<BR><a
href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/johnduffield%40btconnect.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1"><BR>Click
here to unsubscribe<BR></a><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>