<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px"><div id="yiv2832913281"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_23521"><div style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_23520"><div dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_21650" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><span id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_21649">John</span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_21648" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><span><br clear="none"></span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_21648" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_32457">In investigating electron and photon models as well as various sources of evidence from accelerators and lasers, We may find it useful to ask questions, and perhaps make sure we have exhaustedly done so to ensure papers have a rigor expected by the audiences the paper or presentation is aimed at.</span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_21648" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><span><br></span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_21648" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_32963">So, I am going to provide a stream of consciousness that tries to stay within the banks and boundaries with occasional overflows and tangental thought. </span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_21648" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><span><br></span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_21648">Sometime ago I began an attempt to compare various photon models and likewise, electrons models. My interest was primarily advanced and exotic propulsion systems so the usual suspects of solar sails and fusion drives were explored at the particle process level. As a part of my process, it was important to know the mainstream physics as well as the anomalies and evidence that didn't fit those models. I wasn't looking for a complete solution; I was simply gleaning ideas by looking at experiments without a good theory that appeared as magic as well as theories without even the whiff of an experimental approach. Lots of ideas and little progress results unless to obtain clean wheat one changes the filters early and often.</div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_21648"><br></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_21648">Even within the mainstream physics I found it incredible that Planck units were being used. The very idea of Planck mass seemed inane since Planck units are not a closed set. However, I decided that Planck's constant would be left alone for now.</div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_21648"><br></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_21648">Zbw was always a hangup in part for lack of belief in any evidence of zbw as well as zbw itself due to schroedinger and Dirac's choice of equations. Perhaps these non-believers have a preference for the simpler models of life and learning, and in doing so, may have oversimplified the electron and lost sight of why Dirac and Schroedinger's equations and observations work.</div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_21648"><br></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_21648">A few years ago, NIST in the US gave <a href="http://jqi.umd.edu/research/publications/direct-observation-zitterbewegung-bose-einstein-condensate" style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_28456">Direct observation of zitterbewegung in a Bose-Einstein condensate</a>. That has not prevented folks from believing in other models but certainly has focused the light on zbw models of the electron.</div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_21648"><br></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_21648">See also <a href="http://jqi.umd.edu/news/simulation-sets-atoms-shivering" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_28168">http://jqi.umd.edu/news/simulation-sets-atoms-shivering</a></div><div id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_21648"> </div><div id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_21648" dir="ltr">So we will assume that all electron models are zbw models unless otherwise noted.</div><div id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_21648"><br></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_21648">One could argue there are many other defining factors in the case of the electron, the most obvious being charge. </div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_21648" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><br></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_21648" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">One might argue charge to mass ratio as well but that ratio is not fundamental while charge is fundamental and quantized - or so we thought until quarks changed that view. So we have leptons and quarks all exhibiting charge. And then we have the carriers, most notably the photon.</div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_21648" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><br></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_21648" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">Mass is not fundamental. At least I don't think so. I like to consider it a phase or state change in the energy density continuum. Basic unit, but not really fundamental.</div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_21648" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><br></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_21648" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">So how does a photon with zero charge (?) become an electron with charge? What is the *process*?</div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_21648" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><br></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_21648" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">Will any photon do? or is it limited to a range? </div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_21648" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><br></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_21648" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">And if we use part of a photon, are the leftovers from electron creation also photons, or are they some other byproduct?</div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_21648" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><br></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_21562" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">A photon traversing the universe is assumed to travel in a straight line, a geodesic if you will. Now, any mass or energy density along that path might change that line ever so slightly. And we can ignore for now any absorption or emission such as stimulated and spontaneous. </div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_21562" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><br></div><div class="yiv2832913281" dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_8775" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">So, if we assume that a photon on a tightly curved path generates charge, how does it do that? </div><div class="yiv2832913281" dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_8775" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><br></div><div class="yiv2832913281" dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_8775" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">An off-geodesic perhaps? An emergence property? (reductionism freedom)?</div><div class="yiv2832913281" dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_8775" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><br></div><div class="yiv2832913281" dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_8775" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">The photon itself is poorly represented in books of learning. The electric and magnetic vectors of a photon are often drawn with their source on the centerline like that of an auger. However, photons are more like a corkscrew with an offset from that centerline. </div><div class="yiv2832913281" dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_8775" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><br></div><div class="yiv2832913281" dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_8775" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">Either case is puzzling. In the auger-type photon, the Poynting Vector is simplified and we have an apparent imbalance that traverses space like a soliton. In the corkscrew approach, there emerges something we don't have real experience with and begin to guess that spacetime is interacting with the E and B fields. One could go even further and suggest that various types of impedance (paging Chip) need to be accounted for. Another possibility is that even within a vacuum the photon is interacting with other particles. After all, a vacuum is not a void. </div><div class="yiv2832913281" dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_8775" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><br></div><div class="yiv2832913281" dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_8775" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">Is the traveling photon influenced by the rest of the universe? Given the impedance question, and Mach's principle, and perhaps the photon really is defined by the universe, the vacuum and spacetime. How are these three related?</div><div class="yiv2832913281" dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_8775" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><br></div><div class="yiv2832913281" dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_8775" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">So now we have the additional issues of spacetime, possible negative vacuum , and Mach's principle.</div><div class="yiv2832913281" dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_8775" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><br></div><div class="yiv2832913281" dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_8775" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">Even within the photon, in either model - the auger or corkscrew - there is the issue of degrees of freedom, in particular the line of travel (Poynting vector) as well as transverse. The transverse nature of a curving photon would suggest the possibility of emergent forces.</div><div class="yiv2832913281" dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_8775" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><br></div><div class="yiv2832913281" dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_8775" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">So the zbw-electron models appear to have a circulating quanta which we think is the photon, and that photon appears to be generating topological charge as it interacts with spacetime and perhaps particles within the vacuum. </div><div class="yiv2832913281" dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_8775" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><br></div><div class="yiv2832913281" dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_8775" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">So we have to ask...is the photon in the electron the same as the photon outside the electron?</div><div class="yiv2832913281" dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_8775" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><br></div><div class="yiv2832913281" dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_8775" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">David</div><div class="yiv2832913281" dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_8775" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><br></div> <div class="qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div class="yiv2832913281yqt9919150613" id="yiv2832913281yqt69594" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><blockquote id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_21455" style="border-left:2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255);margin-left:5px;margin-top:5px;padding-left:5px;"> <div id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_21454" style="font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"> <div id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_21453" style="font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"> <div dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_21452"> <hr size="1"> <font id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_21456" size="2" face="Arial"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> John Williamson <John.Williamson@glasgow.ac.uk><br clear="none"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> David Mathes <davidmathes8@yahoo.com>; Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion <general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org> <br clear="none"><b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Cc:</span></b> Ariane Mandray <ariane.mandray@wanadoo.fr> <br clear="none"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, April 14, 2015 10:51 PM<br clear="none"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> RE: [General] Electrons through the looking glass<br clear="none"> </font> </div> <div class="yiv2832913281y_msg_container" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_21457"><br clear="none"><div id="yiv2832913281">
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<span lang="EN-US">Dear Andrew and David,</span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US"> </span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_25776">Thank you very much for your paper Andrew and posts David. <span style="">
</span>The reading of them has been a rare treat in the early hours of a Wednesday morning.
<span style=""> </span>I usually tell my second year students to be wary of Wikipedia as it starts to become unreliable (representing “common knowledge” as it does) at their level. The posts, however, were funny and apposite in turn and definitely
not tbs (too bloody serious). It was a good overview of the state of the game in many areas and I learnt one or two things from them. Thanks for picking them up! E-p annihilation is not quite “through the looking glass” (but almost).</span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US">Andrew, it was wonderful to see that someone else has worried about the dynamics of e-p annihilation. Beautiful article – well argued. Did it ever get published? This kind of consideration should be central to our meeting in San Diego as
it addresses directly the transition from light to matter and vice versa.</span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US">I think that it is, indeed, no co-incidence that one ends up finding the classical radius is important. There is a relationship of precisely alpha squared between the Bohr radius and the classical radius, with the Compton wavelength coming
in at the logarithmic centre (radius within a factor of 2 pi). Apart from the crucial questions asked in the article itself, the conversation between you both raises many important issues – too many to cover in a short email – but I will try to comment on
and make some progress on some of them.</span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US">Firstly (even though this is outside the theme of these posts a little), quarks, gluons and the quark charge. It is common knowledge that the quark charge is fractional – but this is just the simplest model (Proton charge = 2/3+2/3 – 1/3).
An alternative is to use Han-Nambu quarks which carry integral charge, but whose charge differs for different colour (gluon) charges, (Proton charge = +1 +1 -1). Actual measurements of the quark charge (one of the subjects of my PhD thesis) remain inconclusive.
In fact direct measurements of the very existence of quarks is inconclusive to say the least (as energy increases the percentage of the apparent energy carried by the valence quarks is tending towards zero – Martin may say something about this in SD). There
are extant (and unexplained) experiments which flatly contradict the quark-parton model (O’Fallon et al PRL 1977!).
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<span lang="EN-US">Forget about quarks and gluons- we have to do better. We need a theory that treats both leptons and photons as integral elements of an underlying paradigm. Naturally I’m hoping that my new theory of electromagnetism will allow the calculation
of the detailed transition from leptons to photons within a single unified theory, but that remains to be seen. Hoping people such as Chip can help here!</span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US"> </span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US">Simple models of the proton as a bag of quarks yield proton radii in the right ballpark. John M, for example, has an estimate in his longer paper where he assumes equipartition of energy to three valence quarks in a bag which comes in at
the right order. There are claims of doing much better than this using ZPE (zero point energy) calculations– especially in explaining the recent “proton size puzzle”. The precision claimed here is impressive. See, for example…</span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US"> </span></div>
<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="margin-top:.1pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;">
<span lang="EN-US"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://resonance.is/the-proton-radius-prediction-and-gravitational-control/">http://resonance.is/the-proton-radius-prediction-and-gravitational-control/</a></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US"> </span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US">I have tended to dismiss the ZPE stuff in the past as just being a simple-minded interpretation of Copenhagen-level quantum mechanics – but I could be very wrong here. This remains to be seen. It anyway has little impact on the electron-photon
debate as fields are (as Chandra, for example, is arguing) very linear for practical energies. See, e.g. …</span></div>
<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="margin-top:.1pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;">
<span lang="EN-US"> </span></div>
<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="margin-top:.1pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;">
<span lang="EN-US"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://arstechnica.com/science/2015/04/searching-for-a-quantum-foam-bubbling-through-the-universe/">http://arstechnica.com/science/2015/04/searching-for-a-quantum-foam-bubbling-through-the-universe/</a></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US"> </span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US">Even so, for me this is not the main issue. It is the question of charge quantization in elementary particles per-se, and the underlying reasons for the existence of the eightfold-way (quark) symmetry at all in hadrons.
</span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US">For me the reason for the quantisation of charge is precisely that only existing (charged) particles can emit or absorb photons. The quantization arises, then, because particles exist in a state of (thermodynamic) equilibrium with the other
particles around them. A higher charge simply emits faster. In a hydrogen atom (or positronium) the vast majority of interactions are between the resonant bound pair – making such things beautifully, smoothly, neutral. Free charges may have, however, some
effective spread in charge – and this may prove one experimental test of the new theory.</span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US"> </span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US">For me the quark symmetry is just geometric, as explained in my talk at Cybcom 2008 which Nick has posted. Quarks do not exist independently because they are not complete particles. A complete, resonant, harmonic path is required to give
a particle. Such considerations generate the mass spectrum of particles as well, with the muon coming in at 6 cubed and the tauon at 15 cubed the mass of the electron. My old (1981!) model also gives simple relations between baryon masses (but it is a bit
of a silly model). Have not really pursued this in decades, but it may be time to look into this again.</span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US"> </span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US">Coming back to e-p annihilation, what is cancelled, and the field pattern. For me, the fields of the electron and positron are not cancelled, but simply transform smoothly into the di-photon field pattern. The first person to show me how
to do this was my old friend Ariane Mandray. She did her PhD in Grenoble, but is no longer active in physics, which is a shame. I think my visual imagination is somewhat above the population average, but she is way beyond me: she has the cleverest visual imagination
I have ever encountered. I’ll copy her in on this. Take two of Martin and my roly-poly leptons, one electron with field inwards and one positron with field outwards. Represent them as two donuts and lay them both on a flat table. Set the internal spins to
have The SAME handedness but opposite (instantaneous) spins. As the two field patterns merge, they converge to two linear, corkscrew-like configurations – the proto di-photon pair. Ariane did this, lying in front of a fire, in her head, within a few minutes,
powered only by a couple of (small) glasses of wine. Wow!</span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US"> </span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US">Coming back to sizes and so forth. The electron size is not of the order of a tenth of a picometre as in the roly-poly photon model. It is a lot smaller (though not, for me, Plank-scale small). This is because it only has itself to oscillate
about. The effective size in free space is close to the classical electron radius – modulo a force-balance as David was arguing (anything obeying the Maxwell equations satisfies a general force-balance equation. No need for extra stresses). The radius of curvature
of the internal photon path is of the order of a tenth of a picometre, but that is not the same thing as one measures as this radius is not in space-space, but in scalar–field space. This will probably make little sense to most at the moment . It needs the
paper I’m thinking of writing when I stop writing this email. The oscillation may be viewed as being of the field part about the rest-mass part. The rest-mass part is - just as Andrew was arguing in his paper – the bit that is annihilated to field in e-p annihilation.
It is, for the simplest model within the new theory, a quarter of the total mass-energy. I would love someone to model this process in the new theory. Chip?</span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US">Cheers, </span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US">John W.</span></div>
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<hr tabindex="-1">
<div id="yiv2832913281divRpF95514" style="direction:ltr;"><font face="Tahoma" color="#000000" size="2"><b>From:</b> General [general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org] on behalf of David Mathes [davidmathes8@yahoo.com]<br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, April 15, 2015 4:41 AM<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b> [General] Forgiven<br clear="none">
</font><br clear="none">
</div>
<div></div>
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<div dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429069088709_7071"><span>Chip</span></div>
<div dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429069088709_7071"><span><br clear="none">
</span></div>
<div dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429069088709_7071"><span>Whatever your intent, you're forgiven.</span></div>
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</span></div>
<div dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429069088709_7071"><span>David</span></div>
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<div id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429069088709_7073" style="font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">
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<font id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429069088709_7076" face="Arial" size="2"><b id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429069088709_7109"><span id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429069088709_7108" style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Andrew Meulenberg <mules333@gmail.com><br clear="none">
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion <general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>
<br clear="none">
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, April 14, 2015 7:57 PM<br clear="none">
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [General] Electron Size in a Collision<br clear="none">
</font></div>
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<div id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429069088709_7077">Chip,<br clear="none">
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I had noticed that David had sent me email at my address, not the conference website. I apparently had missed that before; but, assuming it was an oversight on his part, I included it this time.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
</div>
Andrew<br clear="none">
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<div class="yiv2832913281gmail_extra" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429069088709_7110"><br clear="none">
<div class="yiv2832913281gmail_quote" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429069088709_7113">On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 1:11 AM, Chip Akins
<span dir="ltr" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429069088709_7112"><<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429069088709_7111" ymailto="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com">chipakins@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br clear="none">
<blockquote class="yiv2832913281gmail_quote" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429069088709_7159" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429069088709_7158" lang="EN-US">
<div id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429069088709_7157">
<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429069088709_7156"><span style="color:black;">A question regarding email circulation.<u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429069088709_7160"><span style="color:black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;">It has come to my attention that I am not getting some of the comments from various participants. Specifically I do not receive comments from David Mathes in this thread. Is there a known reason
this might be happening? <u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429069088709_7161"><span style="color:black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;">David has been a continual inspiration to me over the years we have known each other and I would prefer not to miss his contributions of possible.<u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429069088709_7162"><span style="color:black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;">Chip<u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429069088709_7163"><span style="color:black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429069088709_7164"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> General [mailto:<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:general-bounces%2Bchipakins" target="_blank" href="mailto:general-bounces%2Bchipakins">general-bounces+chipakins</a>=<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Andrew Meulenberg<br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 14, 2015 1:50 PM<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b> David Mathes; Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion; Andrew Meulenberg</span></div>
<div id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429069088709_7166">
<div class="yiv2832913281h5" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429069088709_7165"><br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Electron Size in a Collision<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div></div>
<div id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429069088709_7169">
<div class="yiv2832913281h5" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429069088709_7168">
<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429069088709_7167"><u></u> <u></u></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429069088709_7170" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;">
Dear David,<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" id="yiv2832913281yui_3_16_0_1_1429069088709_7177" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;">
I have attached the draft of a paper of mine that AJP rejected in 9 minutes back in Dec. 2012. It describes the change in mass as the electron-positron pair approach and annihilate. This is an example of how the Coulomb potential energy and mass are equivalent.
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
For self-attractive, equal-mass, charges, The work done to accelerate the leptons comes from their charge (their mass) and goes into bound EM radiation (the relativistic mass increase). The figure on p 12 shows how the decrease in potential-dependent mass as
they approach exactly balances the increase in relativistic mass so that the 'DC' charge and mass of the leptons is 'gradually' (not quantum mechanically) converted into AC EM fields (ultimately photons).<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;">Based on this paper, I would extrapolate the results to 3 cases (I would need to think them thru further):<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
1. In the quark model a highly relativistic lepton triplet has been pushed close enough together to convert almost of their energy into EM field (perhaps with the highest energy density in the present universe). The potential-dependent mass and charge is reduced
to some resonant-state level with the net fractional charge.<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;">2. In the case of a very-energetic electron incident on a nucleus, the electron does little work and therefore does not lose potential-dependent mass and charge. Such an electron is 'pancaked'
in the direction of motion and has a much higher central energy density than when at rest. (Its average size decreases.) As it speeds up (incrementally, because it is already close to c) on its approach, its relativistic EM mass increases further. This effect
would be unnoticeable because the increase is such a small percentage of its initial energy.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
3. In the case of a very-energetic electron colliding with another such, the electrons do work on each other; therefore, in slowing down, they gain potential-dependent mass and charge (they can create more lepton pairs?). As they slow down in doing this work,
their relativistic-EM mass decreases and their 'core' begins to expand back toward its rest size.<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;">Details still need to be worked out. Nevertheless, I think that all of the forces (strong, weak, EM, and gravitation) can be explained in this process.<u></u><u></u></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal">Andrew<u></u><u></u></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal">On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 10:20 PM, David Mathes <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:davidmathes8@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:davidmathes8@yahoo.com">davidmathes8@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">Andrew<u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">At the photon and electron level, the L-J potential is a mathematical physics approach to at least satisfy one element of a Monte Carlo analysis to discern the limit, and
if possible, eliminate the balance of forces argument. After all, the photon is considered it's own anti-particle.<u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">The dynamic dipole as a rotating dipole is based on the idea that a moving charge creates a virtual particle which may include the particle wake itself. There may be other
modes beyond rotating dipole...this depends on the structure of the photon and electron as well as it's wake.<u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">The rotating dipole may be totally real where there are two quanta, but I was speaking of a single quanta. The concept of electronic holes has produced major advances in
electronics. So one has to ask if every elementary particle has a hole counterpart, and at least under what circumstances it might or might not. So when a single particle is moving quickly perhaps in relativistic velocities or changes velocity quickly during
acceleration, or perhaps even during jerk, then frame dragging may induce a virtual particle condition akin to a dipole traversing the path.<u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">As I barely grasped the fractional charge explanation I certainly would like to hear more on that since I believe SPIE is interested in "charged photon" theory (Gauthier
2015) and how this might apply to constructing charge particles which includes both lepton and quark families, and perhaps even Higgs.<u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">Best<u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">David<u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black;"> Andrew Meulenberg <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:mules333@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:mules333@gmail.com">mules333@gmail.com</a>><br clear="none">
<b>To:</b> David Mathes <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:davidmathes8@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:davidmathes8@yahoo.com">davidmathes8@yahoo.com</a>>; Andrew Meulenberg <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:mules333@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:mules333@gmail.com">mules333@gmail.com</a>>
<br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 14, 2015 1:48 AM<u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black;"><br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Electron Size in a Collision<u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white;">
<span style="color:black;">Dear David,<u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white;">
<span style="color:black;">Thank you for your musings. They have raised issues that I have not addressed, but need to.<u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white;">
<span style="color:black;">While I do not believe that the L-J potential can pertain to the structure of the electron, it might be applicable, in some form, to the quarks. On the other hand, the question of balance between the repulsive and attractive forces
within the electron could be addressed in a similar manner. However, I cannot do it w/o resorting to 4-D.<u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white;">
<span style="color:black;">On my initial reading of your comments, I rejected the rotating-dipole concept. I realize now that was a mistake. The source photon certainly has dipoles built in, and the resultant lepton pair is a dipole; therefore it should be expected
that, in the conversion from oscillating dipoles to vortex motion, the dipole nature should be dynamic. Nevertheless, just as the standing-wave charge-dipole oscillations of a photon are in time, rather than space, so their 'rectification' into the stable
electron-positron pair probably separates them in time as well as in space.<u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white;">
<span style="color:black;">I believe that the fractional charge on the quarks are related to the proximity of the constituent electrons and positrons. If the quark is a lepton triplet, then they must be very close together and highly relativistic. As such, their
individual DC charges are converted to bound AC fields (Gluons?). This goes way beyond the photon-to-electron concept of present concern; but, it all fits.<u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">Andrew<u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 10:01 AM, David Mathes <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:davidmathes8@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:davidmathes8@yahoo.com">davidmathes8@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">Andrew<u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">In the simplest form, let me explain my brain fart...based on Lenard-Jones potential...<u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">for an isolated particle, charged or not, there is a balance of positive potential and negative potential for charge. <u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">While LJ12 applies for neutral particles at the atom or molecular level, in principle this dipole may also apply and be useful at the elementary particle level, at least
as a starting point. This conjecture may apply to elementary particles such as electrons and quarks as well as complex particles such as protons and neutrons.<u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">The rest of the email are musings. <u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">David<u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">P.S. The boson family is problematic. The photon and the eight gluons present a challenge with modeling. <u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">I think there is great confusion on the radius of the electron and other elementary particles. Today's discussion Sunday/Monday April 12/13) was making process on identifying
the various radii. So I'm pretty sure this issue will resolve itself shortly. So, my email of last week is a bit outdated, but my concern was that when we get into topological models of electrons with one loop or two, there is the need to identify what types
of radii there may per particle per measurement. If various theories propose a quanta within a radius making these loops, then we need to determine if the loops are truly circular orbital instead of elliptical, and also if we are looking at a sub elementary
quanta that exhibits classical, relativistic or quantum behavior, and perhaps even address transluminal/superluminal issues.<u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">I was addressing the single elementary particle level in The Standard Model where some authors suggest that each of the individual elementary particles have a balance of
forces, attractive, the other repulsive. Near and far field forces need to be distinguished as well. Furthermore, we need to understand the role of measurement in determining these forces, and what boundary conditions may be applied to discern the right answer(s). <u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<span style="color:black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">One could easily use the neutron. However, protons, electrons and even massless particles like photons are often defined by a balance of forces where the net field goes to
zero. <u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">Net field = 0 = f(ext) + (-f(int))<u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">So it seems to me that any loop model will need to be evaluated as a rotating dipole.<u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">In the proposed neutron model, we know that during decay a neutron can produce a proton, electron and some remnants of both mass and energy. <u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">When one gets to the point of a neutron decay, the current topological models of electron seem to ignore the challenge of a quark with 1/3 the charge. When any attempt to
apply what is learned from the electron is made to a proton, there is a need for quark model. However, given that a proton is comprised of 3 quarks and their attendant gluons, making the leap from electron to proton requires models for both known quarks
(6 plus variants) and gluons (8 known). While the antiparticle is expected to be simple, the gluons become an issue. <u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">In the case of the electron, there may be a need to exclude other charged particles especially from the quark family. To my knowledge quark internals or topology has not
been detailed or even investigated. Even speculation is rather thin on what the quark structure looks like.<u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">So when we speak of photon - electron modeling, we probably should be addressing photon/electron/quark modeling, and in doing so, also take on neutrinos and gluons. While
this completes the picture for most charged particles, the remaining boson and Higgs particles will have to wait since uncharged particles may prove even more challenging since they cannot be measured in a Penning Trap as charged particles and ions can.<u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">Mesoscopic physics gives us a system level view of a variety of forces beyond just charge. Such a view will complicate the discussion intended by SPIE. However, any internals
of an Elementary Particle will need to address externals as well beyond photon and electron to the proton and neutron.<u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">The physics of the photon needs a bit deeper explanation as well. Is the dipole modeling sufficient or do we need to model using cross polarized photons and hidden variables
from quarks such as spacetime impedance? Note that there are a number of different impedances to choose from.<u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;color:black;">How does one create 1/3 charge?</span><span style="color:black;"><u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">DM<u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><b><span style="color:black;"> </span></b><span style="color:black;"><u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">References<u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">2009 Penning Trap , 78 pages<u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><b><span style="color:black;">Penning traps as a versatile tool for precise experiments in fundamental physics </span></b><span style="color:black;"><u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">K. Blaum, Yu.N. Novikov<span> </span>and G. Werth</span><span style="color:black;"><u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://arxiv.org/pdf/0909.1095.pdf">http://arxiv.org/pdf/0909.1095.pdf</a><u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">In Above paper ref [6]1986 Penning Trap, 77 pages<u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">Geonium theory: Physics of a Single Electron or Ion in a Penning Trap<u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">Brown, Gabrielse<u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://gabrielse.physics.harvard.edu/gabrielse/papers/1986/Review.pdf">http://gabrielse.physics.harvard.edu/gabrielse/papers/1986/Review.pdf</a><u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><b><span style="color:black;">On the Radius of the Neutron, Proton, Electron and the Atomic Nucleus
</span></b><span style="color:black;"><u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">Sha YinYue</span><span style="color:black;"><u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.gsjournal.net/old/physics/yue.pdf">http://www.gsjournal.net/old/physics/yue.pdf</a> </span><span style="color:black;"><u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"> </span><span style="color:black;"><u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">Molecular superposition<u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.wiley.com/legacy/wileychi/ecc/samples/sample01.pdf">http://www.wiley.com/legacy/wileychi/ecc/samples/sample01.pdf</a><u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><b><span style="color:black;">Atoms in Molecules Richard F. W. Bader </span></b><span style="color:black;"><u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><b><span style="color:black;"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.wiley.com/legacy/wileychi/ecc/samples/sample02.pdf">http://www.wiley.com/legacy/wileychi/ecc/samples/sample02.pdf</a></span></b><span style="color:black;"><u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><b><span style="color:black;">Photodissociation Dynamics Reinhard Schinke</span></b><span style="color:black;"><u></u><u></u></span></div>
</div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><b><span style="color:black;"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.wiley.com/legacy/wileychi/ecc/samples/sample03.pdf">http://www.wiley.com/legacy/wileychi/ecc/samples/sample03.pdf</a> </span></b><span style="color:black;"><u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><b><span style="color:black;"> </span></b><span style="color:black;"><u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><b><span style="color:black;">Combined Quantum Mechanical and Molecular Mechanical Potentials</span></b><span style="color:black;"><u></u><u></u></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><b><span style="color:black;">Patricia Amara and Martin J. Field </span></b><span style="color:black;"><u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.wiley.com/legacy/wileychi/ecc/samples/sample04.pdf">http://www.wiley.com/legacy/wileychi/ecc/samples/sample04.pdf</a><u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black;"> Andrew Meulenberg <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:mules333@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:mules333@gmail.com">mules333@gmail.com</a>><br clear="none">
<b>To:</b> David Mathes <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:davidmathes8@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:davidmathes8@yahoo.com">davidmathes8@yahoo.com</a>>; Andrew Meulenberg <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:mules333@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:mules333@gmail.com">mules333@gmail.com</a>>
<br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, April 13, 2015 7:11 PM</span><span style="color:black;"><u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Electron Size in a Collision<u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white;">
<span style="color:black;">Dear David,<u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white;">
<span style="color:black;">Are you referring to the point outside a neutron where the net field goes to zero? Or are you talking about the point between two like charges where there is no net force on a 3rd charge? Could you be more specific? I think that I
may be missing something.<u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">Andrew<br clear="none">
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 9:26 AM, David Mathes <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:davidmathes8@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:davidmathes8@yahoo.com">davidmathes8@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">Andrew</span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">There is a fourth definition. That is the neutral point between attractive and repulsive forces.</span></div>
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<div class="yiv2832913281MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">David</span></div>
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