<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px"><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_8974"><span>John</span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_8975"><span><br></span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_8972">The references within wiki are usually a good source to start exploring other papers. And sometimes, we just need to hear and compare the definition of the words online to those we attempt to put in a paper.</div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_8972"><br></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_8972">I'm glad there was a little inspiration. My children are exploring the internet and wanted to know about hyperlinks. I'll continue using the hyperlinks for a bit and we will see how it goes. Sure would be nice to have sofware insert the hyperlinks automatically. </div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_8972"><br></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_8972">In a way, when it comes to the photon and electron, we are all children.</div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_8970"><br></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_8775">David</div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_8775"><br></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_8775"><br></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_8775"><br></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_8775"><br></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_8775"></div><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; margin-top: 5px; padding-left: 5px;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_7848"><div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_7847"><div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_7846"><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_8326"> <font size="2" face="Arial" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_8774"> <b id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_15714"><span style="font-weight:bold;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_15713">From:</span></b> John Duffield <johnduffield@btconnect.com><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> David Mathes <davidmathes8@yahoo.com>; Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion <general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org> <br> <b id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_15712"><span style="font-weight: bold;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_15711">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, April 15, 2015 2:23 AM<br> <b id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_15710"><span style="font-weight: bold;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_15709">Subject:</span></b> Re: [General] Electron Size in a Collision<br> </font> </div> <div class="y_msg_container" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_7845"><br><div id="yiv6510844315">
<div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_7844">
<div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_7843">
<div style="FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri';COLOR:#000000;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_7842">
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_7972">David:</div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_12451"> </div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_7905">Interesting stuff. I love all those hyperlinks. Including the link to the
wavelet Wikipedia article, which gives this depiction of a seismic wave. </div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_12452"> </div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429112372735_7841"><img title="Seismic_Wavelet" style="BORDER-TOP:0px;BORDER-RIGHT:0px;BACKGROUND-IMAGE:none;BORDER-BOTTOM:0px;PADDING-TOP:0px;PADDING-LEFT:0px;BORDER-LEFT:0px;DISPLAY:inline;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;" border="0" alt="Seismic_Wavelet" src="cid:wxxukTPN1eFBB816oIKt" width="224" height="399" data-id="12df4e1c-ee60-aede-66fd-00b75e8658da" title-off=""></div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>When a wave moves through the ground, the ground waves. When a wave moves
through the ocean, the ocean waves. When a wave moves through space...</div>
<div> </div>
<div>As for that cave, to me if feels more like <a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journey_to_the_Center_of_the_Earth">Journey
to the Centre of the Earth</a>, only every now and then we see a sign that <a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Displacement_current#History_and_interpretation">somebody
has gone before</a>. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Regards </div>
<div>John D</div>
<div> </div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri';COLOR:#000000;"></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:small;TEXT-DECORATION:none;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri";FONT-WEIGHT:normal;COLOR:#000000;FONT-STYLE:normal;DISPLAY:inline;">
<div style="FONT:10pt tahoma;">
<div> </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND:#f5f5f5;">
<div style=""><b>From:</b> <a rel="nofollow" title="davidmathes8@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:davidmathes8@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:davidmathes8@yahoo.com" title-off="">David Mathes</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 14, 2015 10:25 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a rel="nofollow" title="general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" ymailto="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" title-off="">Nature of Light and
Particles - General Discussion</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Electron Size in a
Collision</div></div></div>
<div> </div></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:small;TEXT-DECORATION:none;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri";FONT-WEIGHT:normal;COLOR:#000000;FONT-STYLE:normal;DISPLAY:inline;">
<div style="FONT-SIZE:16px;FONT-FAMILY:helveticaneue, helvetica neue, helvetica, arial, lucida grande, sans-serif;COLOR:#000;BACKGROUND-COLOR:#fff;">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_29719" dir="ltr"><span>Chip</span></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27211" dir="ltr"><span><br></span></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27210" dir="ltr"><span id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27209">There was a sidebar between Andrew and I,
part out of the speculative nature of what I suggested. So the circulation is
fine. </span>Andrew and I decided to bring it into the mainstream since we were
able to focus, clarify and agree on a few points.</div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27210" dir="ltr"> </div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27210" dir="ltr">I am a bit humbled by the fine
minds here with the attention to detail and depth of knowledge. As luck would
have it, despite various attempts at some of the finer universities, I'm still
not easily impaired by an education. Experience has taught me otherwise. So
before I was humiliated for wasting anyone's time, I thought it best to quietly
ask a question to the author only, someone I didn't know. </div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27128" dir="ltr"><span><br></span></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27128" dir="ltr">As you are aware, Chip, my
curiosity often exceeds what I know. While I can provide references from various
sources like AIP, APS, and other journals, I have found that wiki - no matter
how wrong it might be - is a useful starting place for my kids who want to know
a bit more (and Alissa will be studying physics next year.) So all references
are to wiki. Other references can be provided as well. </div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27128" dir="ltr"> </div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27128" dir="ltr">While the practitioners of
mainstream physics have two feet solidly - within boundary conditions known and
unknown, of course - there is a need to go one step further without losing one's
balance. One can have a foot in the mainstream and foot on the fringe. Some
adventurous folks would say that staying within sight of mainstream physics is
ok too as long as one understands that any new or improved theory at least can
explain current theories as a smaller box within the conjectured larger box. And
some cast their fate well beyond that to the heavenly language of pure
mathematics to the point where they no longer see the sanity of <a rel="nofollow" id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_34987" target="_blank" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wavelet">wavelets</a> but madness of<a rel="nofollow" id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_35261" target="_blank" href="http://www.stringwiki.org/wiki/String_Theory_Wiki"> string theory</a>.
(paging <a rel="nofollow" id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_39970" target="_blank" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hatter">The Mad Hatte</a>r)</div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27128" dir="ltr"> </div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27128" dir="ltr">To that end I have explored
elementary particles at the <a rel="nofollow" id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_33210" target="_blank" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Model">Standard Model</a> and <a rel="nofollow" id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_33465" target="_blank" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersymmetry">SUSY</a> level. My interest
lies not in the <a rel="nofollow" id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_33646" target="_blank" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symmetry">symmetry </a>of physics but the <a rel="nofollow" id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_33895" target="_blank" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asymmetry">asymmetries</a> and even the <a rel="nofollow" id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_34199" target="_blank" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unsolved_problems_in_physics">unexplained</a>
almost symmetries. <a rel="nofollow" id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_34519" target="_blank" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CP_violation">CPT violations</a> are a sign
the Standard Model is like a pair of nice jeans, good enough to but not a
complete outfit for all occasions. SUSY needs to be kept on the score card.
Perhaps the theory will pan out. </div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27128" dir="ltr"> </div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27128" dir="ltr">Such is the nature of physics
that even with a good <a rel="nofollow" id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_34705" target="_blank" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_gravity">quantum gravity
theory</a> the modelers of photons and electrons are in this no man's land
in between the known and the knowable where theories and experiments of the past
haunt us similar to the adventure game where we have entered a colossal pirate's
cave with "...<i id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_29536">a maze of twisty little
passages, all alike</i>." As we explore these passages we find new clues that
are variants on the theme phrase such as "little maze of twisting passages, all
different" or twisty little maze of passage, all different." </div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27128" dir="ltr"> </div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27128" dir="ltr">Even a thorough thrashing using
tools like multidimensional <a rel="nofollow" id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36427" target="_blank" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monte_Carlo_method">Monte Carlo methods of
analysis</a> does not yield an answer to a simple question of "What are
photons."</div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27128" dir="ltr"> </div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27128" dir="ltr">So when my friend, Andrew
popped off with 3 possibilities on <a rel="nofollow" id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_38106" target="_blank" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Boundary_conditions">boundary</a>
determination, I suggested a fourth cause privately I wasn't sure myself and did
not want to make enemies with someone I didn't know if I was misunderstanding
what was said.</div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27128" dir="ltr"> </div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27128" dir="ltr">Over the past couple of days,
the mainstream focused on determining that there are multiple boundaries types
and in some cases, no man's land where the boundary is time-dependent, my
ramblings led us in the direction of the<a rel="nofollow" id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_38731" target="_blank" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dipole"> virtual dipole moment </a>created by
moving a particle or even just a <a rel="nofollow" id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_38414" target="_blank" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum">quanta</a>. Knowing the limitations
and limits is usually helpful. </div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27128" dir="ltr"> </div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27128" dir="ltr">As noted by the attachments,
the focus of our brief sidebar was to address issues pertaining to the dipole
created by a moving particle. While we didn't dig the issues of <a rel="nofollow" id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_39362" target="_blank" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame_of_reference">reference
frames</a> certainly acceleration and<a rel="nofollow" id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_39162" target="_blank" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerk_(physics)"> jerk/jolt</a> movements
create issues beyond the use and abuse of <a rel="nofollow" id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_37873" target="_blank" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivalence_principle">Einstein's
equivalence</a> We ignored the deeper discussion of <a rel="nofollow" id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_40239" target="_blank" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy%E2%80%93momentum_relation">energy-momentum</a>
in 4D and 5D (<a rel="nofollow" id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_40497" target="_blank" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density">energy density</a>) theories.
We sidestepped the issues of <a rel="nofollow" id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_40705" target="_blank" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave%E2%80%93particle_duality">particle-wave</a>.
</div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27128" dir="ltr"> </div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27128" dir="ltr">Perhaps it was a minor point to
determine the types of <a rel="nofollow" id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_37671" target="_blank" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lennard-Jones_potential">zero point potential
</a>here there is a balance of two forces but this goes to a wide-ranging series
of topics if one does not know what forces or boundaries there are, one may have
a challenging time creating or removing additional boundary conditions. <a rel="nofollow" id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_31387" target="_blank" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aharonov%E2%80%93Bohm_effect">Aharonov-Bohm
</a>for example.</div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27128" dir="ltr"> </div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27128" dir="ltr">Sometimes we are simply faced
with Witt's end where <font id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_37262" size="3">"<span id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_32855">Passages lead off in *all* directions from
here.</span><span id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_32978">"</span></font></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27128" dir="ltr"> </div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27128" dir="ltr">So feel free to comment on any
aspect of the ramblings. </div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27128" dir="ltr"> </div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27128" dir="ltr">Best</div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27128" dir="ltr"> </div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27128" dir="ltr">David</div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27128" dir="ltr"> </div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27128" dir="ltr"> </div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27128" dir="ltr">ref: <a rel="nofollow" id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_30998" target="_blank" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossal_Cave_Adventure">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossal_Cave_Adventure</a></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27128" dir="ltr"> </div>
<blockquote id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_26985" style="PADDING-LEFT:5px;MARGIN-LEFT:5px;BORDER-LEFT:rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid;MARGIN-TOP:5px;">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_26984" style="FONT-SIZE:16px;FONT-FAMILY:helveticaneue, helvetica neue, helvetica, arial, lucida grande, sans-serif;">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_26983" style="FONT-SIZE:16px;FONT-FAMILY:helveticaneue, helvetica neue, helvetica, arial, lucida grande, sans-serif;">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27087" dir="ltr">
<hr id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27127" size="1">
<font id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27126" size="2" face="Arial"><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">From:</span></b> Chip Akins
<chipakins@gmail.com><br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">To:</span></b> 'Nature of Light and Particles -
General Discussion' <general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>
<br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, April 14,
2015 12:41 PM<br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re:
[General] Electron Size in a Collision<br></font></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_26982" class="yiv6510844315y_msg_container">
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<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_26979" class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal"><span id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27222" style="COLOR:black;">A question regarding
email circulation.</span></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27221" class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:black;"></span> </div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27226" class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal"><span id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27225" style="COLOR:black;">It has come to my
attention that I am not getting some of the comments from various
participants. Specifically I do not receive comments from David Mathes
in this thread. Is there a known reason this might be happening?
</span></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27828" class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:black;"></span> </div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27830" class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal"><span id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27829" style="COLOR:black;">David has been a
continual inspiration to me over the years we have known each other and I
would prefer not to miss his contributions of possible.</span></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27831" class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:black;"></span> </div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_28253" class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:black;">Chip</span></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_30026" class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:black;"></span> </div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27214" class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri", sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27213" style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri", sans-serif;"> General
[mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Andrew Meulenberg<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 14, 2015
1:50 PM<br><b>To:</b> David Mathes; Nature of Light and Particles - General
Discussion; Andrew Meulenberg<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Electron Size
in a Collision</span></div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal"> </div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27220">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27219">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27218">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27217">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27216">
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:12pt;">Dear
David,</div></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27215" class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:12pt;">I have attached the draft of a paper of mine that
AJP rejected in 9 minutes back in Dec. 2012. It describes the change in mass
as the electron-positron pair approach and annihilate. This is an example of
how the Coulomb potential energy and mass are equivalent. <br><br>For
self-attractive, equal-mass, charges, The work done to accelerate the leptons
comes from their charge (their mass) and goes into bound EM radiation (the
relativistic mass increase). The figure on p 12 shows how the decrease in
potential-dependent mass as they approach exactly balances the increase in
relativistic mass so that the 'DC' charge and mass of the leptons is
'gradually' (not quantum mechanically) converted into AC EM fields (ultimately
photons).</div></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27264" class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:12pt;">Based on this paper, I would extrapolate the
results to 3 cases (I would need to think them thru further):<br><br>1.
In the quark model a highly relativistic lepton triplet has been pushed close
enough together to convert almost of their energy into EM field (perhaps with
the highest energy density in the present universe). The potential-dependent
mass and charge is reduced to some resonant-state level with the net
fractional charge.</div></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27336" class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:12pt;">2. In the case of a very-energetic electron
incident on a nucleus, the electron does little work and therefore does not
lose potential-dependent mass and charge. Such an electron is 'pancaked' in
the direction of motion and has a much higher central energy density than when
at rest. (Its average size decreases.) As it speeds up (incrementally, because
it is already close to c) on its approach, its relativistic EM mass increases
further. This effect would be unnoticeable because the increase is such a
small percentage of its initial energy.<br><br>3. In the case of a
very-energetic electron colliding with another such, the electrons do work on
each other; therefore, in slowing down, they gain potential-dependent mass and
charge (they can create more lepton pairs?). As they slow down in doing this
work, their relativistic-EM mass decreases and their 'core' begins to expand
back toward its rest size.</div></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_28250" class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:12pt;">Details still need to be worked out. Nevertheless,
I think that all of the forces (strong, weak, EM, and gravitation) can be
explained in this process.</div></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_28251" class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal">Andrew</div></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27291">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_28252" class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal"> </div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27290">
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal">On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 10:20 PM, David
Mathes <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:davidmathes8@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:davidmathes8@yahoo.com">davidmathes8@yahoo.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<blockquote id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27289" style="BORDER-TOP:medium none;BORDER-RIGHT:medium none;BORDER-BOTTOM:medium none;PADDING-BOTTOM:0in;PADDING-TOP:0in;PADDING-LEFT:6pt;MARGIN-LEFT:4.8pt;BORDER-LEFT:#cccccc 1pt solid;PADDING-RIGHT:0in;MARGIN-RIGHT:0in;">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27288">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27287">
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">Andrew</span></div></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_30038">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_30037" class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_30036">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_30035" class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_30034" style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">At the photon and
electron level, the L-J potential is a mathematical physics approach to at
least satisfy one element of a Monte Carlo analysis to discern the limit,
and if possible, eliminate the balance of forces argument. After all, the
photon is considered it's own anti-particle.</span></div></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_30033">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_30032" class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_30031">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_30030" class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27296">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27295" class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27294" style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">The dynamic
dipole as a rotating dipole is based on the idea that a moving charge
creates a virtual particle which may include the particle wake itself.
There may be other modes beyond rotating dipole...this depends on the
structure of the photon and electron as well as it's
wake.</span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_30029">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_30028" class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_30027" style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">The rotating
dipole may be totally real where there are two quanta, but I was speaking of
a single quanta. The concept of electronic holes has produced major advances
in electronics. So one has to ask if every elementary particle has a hole
counterpart, and at least under what circumstances it might or might not. So
when a single particle is moving quickly perhaps in relativistic velocities
or changes velocity quickly during acceleration, or perhaps even during
jerk, then frame dragging may induce a virtual particle condition akin to a
dipole traversing the path.</span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">As I barely
grasped the fractional charge explanation I certainly would like to hear
more on that since I believe SPIE is interested in "charged photon" theory
(Gauthier 2015) and how this might apply to constructing charge particles
which includes both lepton and quark families, and perhaps even
Higgs.</span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">Best</span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_30465">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_30464" class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">David</span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_30463">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_30462" class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_30461" class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div>
<blockquote id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27286" style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:5pt;BORDER-TOP:medium none;BORDER-RIGHT:medium none;BORDER-BOTTOM:medium none;PADDING-BOTTOM:0in;PADDING-TOP:0in;PADDING-LEFT:4pt;MARGIN-LEFT:3.75pt;BORDER-LEFT:#1010ff 1.5pt solid;MARGIN-TOP:3.75pt;PADDING-RIGHT:0in;">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27285">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27284">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_30459">
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;TEXT-ALIGN:center;" align="center"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">
<hr align="center" size="1" width="100%">
</span></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_30460" class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><b><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Arial", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Arial", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">
Andrew Meulenberg <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:mules333@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:mules333@gmail.com">mules333@gmail.com</a>><br><b>To:</b>
David Mathes <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:davidmathes8@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:davidmathes8@yahoo.com">davidmathes8@yahoo.com</a>>;
Andrew Meulenberg <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:mules333@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:mules333@gmail.com">mules333@gmail.com</a>>
<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 14, 2015 1:48 AM</span></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_30458">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_30457">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_30456" class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Arial", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"><br><b>Subject:</b>
Re: [General] Electron Size in a Collision</span></div></div></div></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27283">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27282">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27281">
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27280">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27279">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27278">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:12pt;BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">Dear
David,</span></div></div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:12pt;BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">Thank you for
your musings. They have raised issues that I have not addressed, but need
to.</span></div></div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:12pt;BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">While I do not
believe that the L-J potential can pertain to the structure of the
electron, it might be applicable, in some form, to the quarks. On the
other hand, the question of balance between the repulsive and attractive
forces within the electron could be addressed in a similar manner.
However, I cannot do it w/o resorting to 4-D.</span></div></div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:12pt;BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">On my initial
reading of your comments, I rejected the rotating-dipole concept. I
realize now that was a mistake. The source photon certainly has dipoles
built in, and the resultant lepton pair is a dipole; therefore it should
be expected that, in the conversion from oscillating dipoles to vortex
motion, the dipole nature should be dynamic. Nevertheless, just as the
standing-wave charge-dipole oscillations of a photon are in time, rather
than space, so their 'rectification' into the stable electron-positron
pair probably separates them in time as well as in
space.</span></div></div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:12pt;BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">I believe that
the fractional charge on the quarks are related to the proximity of the
constituent electrons and positrons. If the quark is a lepton triplet,
then they must be very close together and highly relativistic. As such,
their individual DC charges are converted to bound AC fields (Gluons?).
This goes way beyond the photon-to-electron concept of present concern;
but, it all fits.</span></div></div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">Andrew</span></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27277">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27276">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27275">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27274">
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">________________________________</span></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27273">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27272">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27271">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_30466" class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27270">
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">On Tue, Apr 14,
2015 at 10:01 AM, David Mathes <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:davidmathes8@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:davidmathes8@yahoo.com">davidmathes8@yahoo.com</a>>
wrote:</span></div>
<blockquote id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27269" style="BORDER-TOP:medium none;BORDER-RIGHT:medium none;BORDER-BOTTOM:medium none;PADDING-BOTTOM:0in;PADDING-TOP:0in;PADDING-LEFT:6pt;MARGIN-LEFT:4.8pt;BORDER-LEFT:#cccccc 1pt solid;PADDING-RIGHT:0in;MARGIN-RIGHT:0in;">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27268">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27267">
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">Andrew</span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">In the
simplest form, let me explain my brain fart...based on Lenard-Jones
potential...</span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">for an
isolated particle, charged or not, there is a balance of positive
potential and negative potential for charge. </span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">While LJ12
applies for neutral particles at the atom or molecular level, in
principle this dipole may also apply and be useful at the elementary
particle level, at least as a starting point. This conjecture may apply
to elementary particles such as electrons and quarks as well as complex
particles such as protons and neutrons.</span></div></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27266">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27265" class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">The rest of
the email are musings. </span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">David</span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">P.S. The
boson family is problematic. The photon and the eight gluons present a
challenge with modeling. </span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">I think there
is great confusion on the radius of the electron and other elementary
particles. Today's discussion Sunday/Monday April 12/13) was making
process on identifying the various radii. So I'm pretty sure this issue
will resolve itself shortly. So, my email of last week is a bit
outdated, but my concern was that when we get into topological models of
electrons with one loop or two, there is the need to identify what types
of radii there may per particle per measurement. If various theories
propose a quanta within a radius making these loops, then we need to
determine if the loops are truly circular orbital instead of elliptical,
and also if we are looking at a sub elementary quanta that exhibits
classical, relativistic or quantum behavior, and perhaps even address
transluminal/superluminal issues.</span></div></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27293">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_27292" class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">I was
addressing the single elementary particle level in The Standard Model
where some authors suggest that each of the individual elementary
particles have a balance of forces, attractive, the other repulsive.
Near and far field forces need to be distinguished as well. Furthermore,
we need to understand the role of measurement in determining these
forces, and what boundary conditions may be applied to discern the right
answer(s). </span></div></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36730">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36729" class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:12pt;BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_30088">
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">One could
easily use the neutron. However, protons, electrons and even massless
particles like photons are often defined by a balance of forces where
the net field goes to zero. </span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">Net field = 0
= f(ext) + (-f(int))</span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">So it seems
to me that any loop model will need to be evaluated as a rotating
dipole.</span></div></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36728">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36727" class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">In the
proposed neutron model, we know that during decay a neutron can produce
a proton, electron and some remnants of both mass and energy.
</span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36726">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36725" class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36724" style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">When one gets
to the point of a neutron decay, the current topological models of
electron seem to ignore the challenge of a quark with 1/3 the
charge. When any attempt to apply what is learned from the
electron is made to a proton, there is a need for quark model.
However, given that a proton is comprised of 3 quarks and their
attendant gluons, making the leap from electron to proton requires
models for both known quarks (6 plus variants) and gluons (8 known).
While the antiparticle is expected to be simple, the gluons become an
issue. </span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">In the case
of the electron, there may be a need to exclude other charged particles
especially from the quark family. To my knowledge quark internals or
topology has not been detailed or even investigated. Even speculation is
rather thin on what the quark structure looks like.</span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36723">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36722" class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">So when we
speak of photon - electron modeling, we probably should be addressing
photon/electron/quark modeling, and in doing so, also take on neutrinos
and gluons. While this completes the picture for most charged particles,
the remaining boson and Higgs particles will have to wait since
uncharged particles may prove even more challenging since they cannot be
measured in a Penning Trap as charged particles and ions
can.</span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">Mesoscopic
physics gives us a system level view of a variety of forces beyond just
charge. Such a view will complicate the discussion intended by SPIE.
However, any internals of an Elementary Particle will need to address
externals as well beyond photon and electron to the proton and
neutron.</span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">The physics
of the photon needs a bit deeper explanation as well. Is the dipole
modeling sufficient or do we need to model using cross polarized photons
and hidden variables from quarks such as spacetime impedance? Note that
there are a number of different impedances to choose
from.</span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-SIZE:13.5pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">How
does one create 1/3 charge?</span><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36721">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36720" class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">DM</span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"TimesNewRomanPS", serif;COLOR:black;"></span></b><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36719">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36718" class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">References</span></div></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36717">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36716">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36715">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36714">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36713" class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div></div></div></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36712">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36711" class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">2009 Penning
Trap , 78 pages</span></div></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36706">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36705">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36704">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36703">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36710">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36709" class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><b id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36708"><span id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36707" style="FONT-FAMILY:"TimesNewRomanPS", serif;COLOR:black;">Penning
traps as a versatile tool for precise experiments in fundamental physics
</span></b><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span></div></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36702">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36701">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36700">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36699">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36698" class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"TimesNewRomanPSMT", serif;COLOR:black;">K. Blaum,
Yu.N. Novikov<span> </span>and G. Werth</span><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36697">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36696" class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://arxiv.org/pdf/0909.1095.pdf">http://arxiv.org/pdf/0909.1095.pdf</a></span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">In Above
paper ref [6]1986 Penning Trap, 77 pages</span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">Geonium
theory: Physics of a Single Electron or Ion in a Penning
Trap</span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">Brown,
Gabrielse</span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://gabrielse.physics.harvard.edu/gabrielse/papers/1986/Review.pdf">http://gabrielse.physics.harvard.edu/gabrielse/papers/1986/Review.pdf</a></span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"TimesNewRomanPS", serif;COLOR:black;">On the
Radius of the Neutron, Proton, Electron and the Atomic Nucleus
</span></b><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"TimesNewRomanPSMT", serif;COLOR:black;">Sha
YinYue</span><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"TimesNewRomanPSMT", serif;COLOR:black;"><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.gsjournal.net/old/physics/yue.pdf">http://www.gsjournal.net/old/physics/yue.pdf</a> </span><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"TimesNewRomanPSMT", serif;COLOR:black;"></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div></div></div></div></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_30087">
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">Molecular
superposition</span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.wiley.com/legacy/wileychi/ecc/samples/sample01.pdf">http://www.wiley.com/legacy/wileychi/ecc/samples/sample01.pdf</a></span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_30086">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_30085">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_30084">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_30083">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_30082" class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><b id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_30081"><span id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_30080" style="FONT-FAMILY:"Times", serif;COLOR:black;">Atoms in Molecules
Richard F. W. Bader </span></b><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Times", serif;COLOR:black;"><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.wiley.com/legacy/wileychi/ecc/samples/sample02.pdf">http://www.wiley.com/legacy/wileychi/ecc/samples/sample02.pdf</a></span></b><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Times", serif;COLOR:black;">Photodissociation
Dynamics Reinhard Schinke</span></b><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Times", serif;COLOR:black;"><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.wiley.com/legacy/wileychi/ecc/samples/sample03.pdf">http://www.wiley.com/legacy/wileychi/ecc/samples/sample03.pdf</a> </span></b><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Times", serif;COLOR:black;"></span></b><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div></div></div></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div></div></div></div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Times", serif;COLOR:black;">Combined Quantum
Mechanical and Molecular Mechanical Potentials</span></b><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Times", serif;COLOR:black;">Patricia Amara and
Martin J. Field </span></b><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span></div></div></div></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.wiley.com/legacy/wileychi/ecc/samples/sample04.pdf">http://www.wiley.com/legacy/wileychi/ecc/samples/sample04.pdf</a></span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div></div>
<blockquote id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_30116" style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:5pt;BORDER-TOP:medium none;BORDER-RIGHT:medium none;BORDER-BOTTOM:medium none;PADDING-BOTTOM:0in;PADDING-TOP:0in;PADDING-LEFT:4pt;MARGIN-LEFT:3.75pt;BORDER-LEFT:#1010ff 1.5pt solid;MARGIN-TOP:3.75pt;PADDING-RIGHT:0in;">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_30115">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_30114">
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;TEXT-ALIGN:center;" align="center"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">
<hr align="center" size="1" width="100%">
</span></div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><b><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Arial", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Arial", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">
Andrew Meulenberg <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:mules333@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:mules333@gmail.com">mules333@gmail.com</a>><br><b>To:</b>
David Mathes <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:davidmathes8@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:davidmathes8@yahoo.com">davidmathes8@yahoo.com</a>>;
Andrew Meulenberg <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:mules333@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:mules333@gmail.com">mules333@gmail.com</a>>
<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, April 13, 2015 7:11 PM</span><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span></div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"><br><b>Subject:</b>
Re: [General] Electron Size in a
Collision</span></div></div></div></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_30113">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_30112">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_30111">
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_30110">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_30109">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_30108">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36686">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36688">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36687" class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:12pt;BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">Dear
David,</span></div></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36692" class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:12pt;BACKGROUND:white;"><span id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36693" style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">Are you
referring to the point outside a neutron where the net field goes to
zero? Or are you talking about the point between two like charges
where there is no net force on a 3rd charge? Could you be more
specific? I think that I may be missing something.</span></div></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36694" class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">Andrew<br>______________________</span></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_30107">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_30106">
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:12pt;BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_30105">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_30104">
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">On Fri, Apr
10, 2015 at 9:26 AM, David Mathes <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:davidmathes8@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:davidmathes8@yahoo.com">davidmathes8@yahoo.com</a>>
wrote:</span></div>
<blockquote id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_30103" style="BORDER-TOP:medium none;BORDER-RIGHT:medium none;BORDER-BOTTOM:medium none;PADDING-BOTTOM:0in;PADDING-TOP:0in;PADDING-LEFT:6pt;MARGIN-LEFT:4.8pt;BORDER-LEFT:#cccccc 1pt solid;PADDING-RIGHT:0in;MARGIN-RIGHT:0in;">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_30102">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_30101">
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">Andrew</span></div></div>
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<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36685">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36684" class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36683" style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">There is
a fourth definition. That is the neutral point between attractive
and repulsive forces.</span></div></div>
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<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div>
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<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">David</span></div></div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div>
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<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36680" class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><b><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Arial", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">From:</span></b><span id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36679" style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Arial", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">
Andrew Meulenberg <<a rel="nofollow" id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36682" ymailto="mailto:mules333@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:mules333@gmail.com">mules333@gmail.com</a>><br><b>To:</b>
Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>>;
Andrew Meulenberg <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:mules333@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:mules333@gmail.com">mules333@gmail.com</a>>
<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 9, 2015 8:33
PM<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Electron Size in a
Collision</span><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span></div></div>
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<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div>
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<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:12pt;BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">Dear
John M.,</span></div></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36678" class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36677" style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">I
haven't had time yet to read your works. I need to, before I
comment on your story below. However, you have raised a topic that
is generally ignored, or improperly treated - the size of an
electron. Could you define what you mean by that? I use 3 possible
definitions for different applications.</span></div>
<ol id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_30091" type="1">
<li class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;COLOR:black;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;">QM says that the
bound electron size is that of the probability distribution of
its orbit (in terms of the Bohr radius). I accept this as a time
average that is used in screening (and in other)
calculations.</span>
</li><li class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;COLOR:black;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;">Compton wavelength
gives a radius (~ 386 fm?) that I assume includes ~99% of its
electrostatic potential in free space. This is important in
looking at the EM (and in other?) interactions. This does not
include the AC EM potential added by relativistic motion.</span>
</li><li id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_30090" class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;COLOR:black;"><span id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_30089" style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;">Classical radius
(~2.8fm) gives the energy density distribution (i.e., ~99% of
its rest mass energy is within this radius?). This is critical
in nuclear interactions involving electrons (and perhaps in the
anomalous solution of the Dirac equations).</span></li></ol>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36673">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36672">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36676">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36675" class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:12pt;BACKGROUND:white;"><span id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36674" style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">Could
you counter, or comment on, these definitions? They have a major
impact on the discussion of the photonic-electron concept. If you
have already covered this topic in one of your papers, could you
'point' it out to us.</span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:12pt;BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">Thx,</span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">Andrew</span></div></div>
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<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:12pt;BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">________________________________</span></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36670">
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">On Thu,
Apr 9, 2015 at 10:41 PM, John Macken <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:john@macken.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:john@macken.com">john@macken.com</a>>
wrote:</span></div>
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<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:12pt;BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div>
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<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36667">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36666">
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">Vivian
and All,</span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">We
all agree that collision experiments indicate that the size of
an electron is smaller than the resolution of the collision
experiment. Since some experiments have been done at about
50 GeV, this means that the electron appears to be smaller than
about 10<sup>-18</sup> m. We have different models of an
electron and they have different explanations for how an
electron can appear to be a point particle. In a previous
post you say, “I prefer the answers given by John W, Richard G,
myself and others that the radius of an electron decreases with
its energy, giving it a point like property as it travels at
sufficiently high velocity.” I will address this
point. You seem to be saying that a fundamental particle
changes its radius in X, Y and Z dimensions as it
propagates. As I recall, the radius decreases with 1/γ in
one model and 1/γ<sup>2</sup> in another model. Also as I
recall the decrease in radius is accompanied by an increase in
the electron’s Compton frequency in some models. Perhaps I
do not understand this concept correctly, but the change in
radius and frequency appears to violate the covariance of
physical laws. All frames of reference should have the
same physical laws. Here is the problem. In order
for the laws of physics to be the same in all frames of
reference, Lorentz transformations have to hold between
different frames of reference. The changes you propose do not
correspond to Lorentz transformations. </span></div></div>
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36665">
<div id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36664" class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span id="yiv6510844315yui_3_16_0_1_1429030573083_36663" style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">Suppose
that we designate the Z axis as the direction of propagation
between two frames of reference. Then the expectation is that an
observer in frame A would perceive that an electron in frame B
retains its original radius in the X and Y dimensions while the
Z axis dimension decreases by r = r<sub>o</sub>/γ. Also,
the rate of time in frame B appears to slows down by 1/γ as seen
from frame A. The Compton frequency can be considered a
clock beat. Therefore the observer in frame A should
perceive that the electron’s Compton frequency in frame B has
slowed down rather than speed up. If the changes you
propose take place, then an observer in frame B would perceive
that an electron has different properties than the properties
observed in frame A. This would be a violation of the
basic assumption of invariance in spacial
relativity.</span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">Perhaps,
the most important point is that the changes that you propose do
not even achieve the goal of making the electron appear to be a
point particle in a collision. Here is the
reasoning. Suppose that we have two electrons accelerated
to 50 GeV and propagating in opposite directions in an
accelerator. I am in the acceleration frame of reference
and the electrons will collide in front of me. If the
collision is head-on, both electrons momentarily are stopped in
my frame of reference at the moment of closest approach.
Therefore at that moment neither electron is moving relative to
me. They might have been small when they were moving, but
when they have stopped in the collision, in your model they
should have their original radius equal which you believe to be
½ the reduced Compton wavelength. Since the scattering is
taking place in my frame of reference, the scattering should
indicate this full size.</span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">Contrast
that to my model. I say that the electron appears to be
the same size and have the same Compton frequency when viewed as
a “stationary” electron in any frame of reference. This
means that Lorentz transformations hold between frames. An
electron in frame B retains the same radius in the X and Y
dimensions but appears to shrink in the Z direction. Also
the Compton frequency appears slower when observed from frame
A. </span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">However,
the important point is not the size during propagation, but the
size during collision. In my model, the size of each
electron physically decreases when the two electrons collide and
momentarily are stopped in my frame of reference. The
kinetic energy carried by each electron has been converted to
the internal energy of the waves that make up the two
electrons. At the moment of collision, the wave amplitude
increases and wave frequency increases. The Compton
wavelength decreases, therefore <b>the radius decreases</b> when
the colliding electrons are momentarily stopped. If the
collision is at 50 GeV then γ = 100,000 and the radius decreases
by this factor. The calculations are done in the
“foundation” paper, in section 4.5, titled Point Particle Test.
This section of the paper concludes that the reason that
electrons appear to be point particles is that “It is a classic
case of the experiment distorting the property being measured
and invalidating the measurement”. </span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">I
also have other arguments supporting my electron size and
characteristics, but this is enough for one
post.</span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;">John
M.</span></div></div></div></div></div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:12pt;BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal" style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:12pt;BACKGROUND:white;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica", sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div>
<div class="yiv6510844315MsoNormal"> </div></div></div></div></div>
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