<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px"><div id="yiv6526167388"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_10863"><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_10862"><div dir="ltr" id="yiv6526167388yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_3239"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_11336"><font size="3">Andrew</font></span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv6526167388yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_3239"><span><font size="3"><br clear="none"></font></span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv6526167388yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_3239"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_16304"><font size="3" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_16303">The questions are posed to bring in a number of conceptual ideas. Vetting can be done by math and experiment. </font></span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv6526167388yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_3239"><span><font size="3"><br></font></span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv6526167388yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_3239"><font size="3" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_11641"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_11500">I hadn't thought or explored the electron internals under the various vortex theories. </span><span id="yiv6526167388yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_3291">From the vortex tubes used in cooling to the vortex on a plane there are variants to consider and narrow the field. </span>I am familiar with the US-Russian split on vortex theory with the general US view that vortex is not an additional force while the Russians prefer to think of vortices as an additional force.</font></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv6526167388yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_3239"><span><font size="3"><br clear="none"></font></span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv6526167388yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_3239"><font size="3" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_11573">In viewing electron models from both van der Mark/Williamson and Gauthier, i was thinking of how charge could be explained and if that explanation would be continuous or quantized, or perhaps exhibit characteristics of both. </font></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv6526167388yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_3239"><font size="3"><br clear="none"></font></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv6526167388yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_3239"><font size="3" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_13182">If we take the photon in the electron model with a 3D path, is charge a frictional result with whatever conditions exist on the exterior? </font></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv6526167388yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_3239"><font size="3"><br></font></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv6526167388yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_3239"><div class="" dir="ltr" id="yiv3736367124yui_3_16_0_1_1416681069218_5318"><font size="3" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_11572"><span class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_10055">A clue is found i</span><span class="" id="yiv3736367124yui_3_16_0_1_1416681069218_6972" style="line-height: 18.719999313354492px;">n the summary of </span><span class="" id="yiv3736367124yui_3_16_0_1_1416681069218_6971" style="line-height: 18.719999313354492px;">Dirac's 1938 paper "Classical Theory of Radiating Electrons", Dirac makes a rather bold statement :</span></font></div><div class="" id="yiv3736367124yui_3_16_0_1_1416681069218_7264"><font size="3"><br clear="none" class="" style=""></font></div><div class="" dir="ltr" id="yiv3736367124yui_3_16_0_1_1416681069218_5752"><font size="3" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_11571"><span class="" id="yiv3736367124yui_3_16_0_1_1416681069218_6938" style="line-height: 18.719999313354492px;">"The equations obtained are the same as those already in current use, but in their physical interpretation the finite size of the </span><span class="" id="yiv3736367124yui_3_16_0_1_1416681069218_7035" style="line-height: 18.719999313354492px;">electron reappears in a new sense, </span><span class="" id="yiv3736367124yui_3_16_0_1_1416681069218_6939" style="line-height: 18.719999313354492px;">the interior of the electron being a region of space through which <b class="" style="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_11570">signals can be transmitted faster than light</b>."</span></font></div><div class="" dir="ltr" id="yiv3736367124yui_3_16_0_1_1416681069218_5752"><br></div><div class="" style="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_11253" dir="ltr"><span class="" style="font-size: 14px; line-height: 18.719999313354492px;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_11682">If we look in the body of Dirac's paper, after a discussion of causality and the coupling of radiation with acceleration, we find this clarification suggesting a departure from relativity. Note that current thinking on radiation suggests jerk/jolt may be involved. </span></div><div class="" style="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_11253" dir="ltr"><span class="" style="font-size: 14px; line-height: 18.719999313354492px;"><br></span></div><div class="" style="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_11253" dir="ltr"><span class="" style="font-size: 14px; line-height: 18.719999313354492px;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_11896">"The finite size of the electron now reappears in a new sense, the interior of the electron being a region of failure not of the field equations of electromagnetic equations, but of some the elementary properties of spacetime."</span></div></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv6526167388yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_3239" style="font-size: 16px;"><span><br clear="none"></span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv6526167388yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_3239" style="font-size: 16px;"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_14993">Key conditions are charge invariance and </span><span style="font-size: 16px;" class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_14851">GRT/SRT is preserved inside the electron and outside the electron.</span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv6526167388yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_3239" style="font-size: 16px;"><div dir="ltr" id="yiv6526167388yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_3239" style="font-size: 16px;" class=""><span class="" style=""><br></span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv6526167388yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_3239" style="font-size: 16px;" class=""><span class="" style="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_14911">What is the nature of the Dirac departure? The usual suspects today would include the following:</span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv6526167388yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_3239" style="font-size: 16px;" class=""><span class="" style=""><br></span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv6526167388yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_3239" style="font-size: 16px;" class="">1) Directional absorption and re-emission (unlikely and adds more time to traversing)</div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv6526167388yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_3239" style="font-size: 16px;" class=""><span class="" style="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_15614">2) Action at a distance process (unknown)</span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv6526167388yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_3239" style="font-size: 16px;" class=""><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_12256" class="" style="">3a) Impedance change (no quarks in electron volume - charge exclusion principle)</span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv6526167388yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_3239" style="font-size: 16px;" class="">3b) <span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_12551" class="" style="font-size: 16px;">Negative vacuum conditions c^2 = (e u)^-1 where e and/or u is lower permitting (Variant of 1)</span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv6526167388yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_3239" style="font-size: 16px;" class="">4) <span style="font-size: 16px;" class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_15778">Change in conditioning of photon using SU(n) </span></div><div class="" style="" dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_14793"><span class="" style="font-size: 16px;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_14792">5) Asymptotic freedom (requires QCD approach)</span></div><div class="" style="" dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_14794"><span class="" style="font-size: 16px;">6) </span><span class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_15831" style="font-size: 16px;">5D or higher solution where GRT is a subset (too complex)</span></div><div class="" style="" dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_14795"><span class="" style="font-size: 16px;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_15834">7) Vortex theories on spacetime, photon wake, charge wake, quanta that defines photon, etc.</span></div><div class="" style="" dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_14795"><span class="" style="font-size: 16px;">8) TBD</span></div><div class="" style="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_14906"><span class="" style="font-size: 16px;"><br></span></div></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv6526167388yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_3239" style="font-size: 16px;"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_13716" class="" style="">If there is a photon on the interior of the electron, and that photon is charged, then other charged particles may be excluded such as quarks. However, an uncharged photon would not be excluded. Other particles TBD.</span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv6526167388yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_3239" style="font-size: 16px;"><span class="" style=""><br></span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv6526167388yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_3239" style="font-size: 16px;"><span class="" style="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_14280">The exclusion of quarks in the interior of the electron volume may create a change in permittivity and perhaps permeability. The net result should be that </span><span style="font-size: 16px;" class="">spacetime internally to the </span><span style="font-size: 16px;" class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_14115">electron volume is a negative vacuum (lower than zero vacuum)... </span><span style="font-size: 16px;" class="">and we haven't even addressed any direct contributions from vortex. </span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv6526167388yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_3239" style="font-size: 16px;"><span style="font-size: 16px;" class=""><br></span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv6526167388yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_3239" style="font-size: 16px;"><span style="font-size: 16px;" class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_14657">Even though the actual c value is different on the interior of the electron, GRT/SRT works in the interior of the electron, and in the exterior of the electron and n</span><span style="font-size: 16px;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_16703">ot so well in the transition between these two GRT states at least under current theory since there is at least a gradient although other issues such as charge divergence and the loop path zone may also be in play. This suggests a 5D theory might address the transition zone or perhaps a theory of nested theories...</span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv6526167388yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_3239" style="font-size: 16px;"><span style="font-size: 16px;"><br></span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv6526167388yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_3239" style="font-size: 16px;"><span style="font-size: 16px;">Best Regards</span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv6526167388yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_3239" style="font-size: 16px;"><span style="font-size: 16px;"><br></span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv6526167388yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_3239" style="font-size: 16px;"><span style="font-size: 16px;">David</span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv6526167388yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_3239" style="font-size: 16px;"><br></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv6526167388yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_3239" style="font-size: 16px;"><br></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv6526167388yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_3239" style="font-size: 16px;"><br></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv6526167388yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_3239" style="font-size: 16px;"><br></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv6526167388yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_3239" style="font-size: 16px;"><br></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv6526167388yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_3239" style="font-size: 16px;"><br></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv6526167388yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_3239" style="font-size: 16px;"><br></div><div class="qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div class="yiv6526167388yqt4248760867" id="yiv6526167388yqt12055" style="font-size: 16px;"><blockquote id="yiv6526167388yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_3356" style="border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; margin-top: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"><div id="yiv6526167388yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_3355" style="font-size: 16px;"><div id="yiv6526167388yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_3354" style="font-size: 16px;"><div dir="ltr" id="yiv6526167388yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_3353"><br><hr id="yiv6526167388yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_3390" size="1"> <font id="yiv6526167388yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_3357" size="2" face="Arial"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Andrew Meulenberg <mules333@gmail.com><br clear="none"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> David Mathes <davidmathes8@yahoo.com>; Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion <general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>; Andrew Meulenberg <mules333@gmail.com> <br clear="none"><b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Cc:</span></b> robert hudgins <hudginswr@msn.com> <br clear="none"> <b id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_11339"><span style="font-weight:bold;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_11338">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, April 15, 2015 9:55 PM<br clear="none"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [General] Electrons through the looking glass<br clear="none"> </font> </div> <div class="yiv6526167388y_msg_container" id="yiv6526167388yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_3358" style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;"><br clear="none"><div id="yiv6526167388"><div dir="ltr" id="yiv6526167388yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_3365"><div id="yiv6526167388yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_3364"><div id="yiv6526167388yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_3363"><div id="yiv6526167388yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_3362"><div id="yiv6526167388yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_3361"><div id="yiv6526167388yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_3360"><div id="yiv6526167388yui_3_16_0_1_1429161385228_3359">Dear David,<br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div>I have long considered that the signature of a good physicist is the ability to ask good questions. You do that. If you don't mind, I will turn some of your questions into statements for our questionnaire to determine the various positions of the group. Most of us have positions relative to the possible answers.<br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div>Your last question is one that I have not previously addressed and is very important: "...is the photon in the electron the same as the photon outside the electron?" <br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div>In trying to 'picture' the answer, I think of the falaco soliton and the production of coupled vortex pairs from a paddle moving thru the water. To me this is a basis for the formation of the electron-positron pair from a photon. However, in looking closer at the analogy I would like to improve the simulation. The result of water (e.g., in a stream) moving past a stationary paddle is not the same as waves on a lake moving past the stationary paddle.<br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div>Has anyone seen such a simulation?<br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div>Few of the water molecules are moving along with the wave! So any vortices formed are not the same as with the stream flow. Most of the water molecules in the wave flow back and forth; therefore, if the wave is large enough for each wave cycle, four vortices (of some nature) would form. They would be 'dragged along' by the wave at a much lower speed. The 'lagging' pair would interfere with the leading pair being formed by the next 'surge' of the wave. What happens to the disturbance moving forward in time and space? To 1st order, ignoring the lagging vortices provides an oppositely rotatiing pair moving forward with the wave, but with a much reduced velocity. A portion of the linear momentum of the incident wave (moving forward at a uniform velocity) has been converted into the balanced angular momentum of the vortices that oscillate back and forth as they move forward with the carrier wave. <br clear="none"><br clear="none">There are other similarities and differences between the leptons and the vortices, but they would take more study than I have time for now. Nevertheless, just thinking about vortices from the water waves is useful for thinking about the creation of leptons from a photon. We would not think of the vortex pair as being the same as the incident plane wave, and they are not. Yet they are closely related and the pair is more so than either vortex alone.<br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div>Andrew<br clear="none"></div></div><br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div> </div> </div> </blockquote></div> </div></div></div></div></body></html>