<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px"><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_5842"><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_7251"><span style="font-size: 11pt;" class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_7250">Martin,</span></span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_5842"><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt;" class=""><br></span></span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_5842"><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_5844"><span style="font-size: 11pt;" class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_5845">Where do we begin...at the beginning, of course...</span></span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_5842"><b style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><br></span></b></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_5842"><b id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_5140" style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_5139" style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">“The photon is that thing that represents/characterizes precisely all that is exchanged in an electromagnetic interaction”</span></b><span></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_5939"><br></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_5939">How precisely? Is all of the photon used or just a resonant wavelet?</div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_5939"><br></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_6228">The photon appears to be the primary long range carrier. Given the partial charge of quarks, the eight Gluons also seem to be exchanged in an electromagnetic interaction. One also wonders about the neutrino. So it's not clear to me yet that the statement above is an absolute but more of a stipulation at this point.</div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_6228"><br></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_6228"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 15px;" class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_6699">The douible slit experiment shows that em-radiation is a wave.</span><br></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_6229"><br></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_6229">Agreed. See Couder's macro wave table experiments which reflect some quantum behavior and appear to support pilot wave theory (Bohm).</div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_6229"><br></div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_7232" style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_7231" class="" style=""><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_7230" style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">“Are electromagnetic waves quantized by their own nature, or is this the result of the nature of the emitter and absorber”</span></b></div><div dir="ltr" class="" style="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_7442"><b class="" style=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><br class="" style=""></span></b></div><div dir="ltr" class="" style="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_7252">Yes. The question is phrased as an either-or choice. However, the answer may be both. Clearly, we are limited by the precision and accuracy of the instrument, in particular the transitions within the sensor materials as well as the design geometry and topology.</div><div dir="ltr" class="" style="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_7252"><br></div><div dir="ltr" class="" style="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_7252">In looking for black and white answers these days there is a tendency to look only for digital results and explain away the analog as spurious or miniscule. In the microwave to x-rays range one has to be careful about the spurious, transient, and parasitics since they may contribute - positively or negatively - to the experimental results. In a digital age, quantization is natural and something as simple as reading an analog watch becomes challenging to use.</div><div dir="ltr" class="" style="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_7252"><br></div><div dir="ltr" class="" style="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_7252">Harmonic oscillators can be a starting point to describe the photon, electron and beyond whether it be the Standard Model or some sub elementary quanta. Equivalent circuits are commonly used as one of many tools to characterize and identify these oscillations. In particular, experimentally, parametric oscillators need to be identified. Parametric amplification will take place with two frequencies, preferably harmonic but not necessarily so, and in some cases a single frequency is enough to generate the harmonics and phase relationship necessary to produce parametric amplification. </div><div dir="ltr" class="" style="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_7252"><br></div><div dir="ltr" class="" style="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_7252">So before we get into the complexities of the electron and the extension to the rest of the Standard Model and perhaps SUSY, the photon </div><div dir="ltr" class="" style="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_7252"><br></div><div dir="ltr" class="" style="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_7252">Best</div><div dir="ltr" class="" style="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_7252"><br></div><div dir="ltr" class="" style="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_7252">David</div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_6229"><br></div> <blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; margin-top: 5px; padding-left: 5px;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_5784"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_5783"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_5782"> <div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_5781"> <hr size="1" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_6370"> <font size="2" face="Arial" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_5780"> <b id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_5888"><span style="font-weight:bold;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_5887">From:</span></b> "Mark, Martin van der" <martin.van.der.mark@philips.com><br> <b id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_7254"><span style="font-weight: bold;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_7253">To:</span></b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion <general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org> <br> <b id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_5890"><span style="font-weight: bold;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_5889">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, April 29, 2015 8:16 AM<br> <b id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_7256"><span style="font-weight: bold;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_7255">Subject:</span></b> Re: [General] Electron<br> </font> </div> <div class="y_msg_container" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_5895"><br><div id="yiv4367894422">
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<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_5892"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_5891">Dear Chip,
</span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_5938"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_5937">Having spent most of my physics time in optics, still and ever since I was a student 1980 or so, I may be able to answer some of the questions.</span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_5936"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_5935">see my comments below in blue….</span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_5896"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;"> </span></div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_5898">
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_5934"><span lang="DE" style="font-size:10.0pt;color:navy;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_7257">Dr. Martin B. van der Mark</span><span lang="DE" style="color:navy;"></span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_5933"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:navy;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_5932">Principal Scientist, Minimally Invasive Healthcare</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:navy;"></span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_5897"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:navy;"> </span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_5931"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:navy;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_7258">Philips Research Europe - Eindhoven</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:navy;"></span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_5900"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:navy;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_5899">High Tech Campus, Building 34 (WB2.025)</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:navy;"></span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_5930"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:navy;">Prof. Holstlaan 4</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:navy;"></span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_5902"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:navy;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_5901">5656 AE Eindhoven, The Netherlands</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:navy;"></span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_7259"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:navy;">Tel: +31 40 2747548</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;"></span></div>
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<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_5905"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_5904"> General [mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Chip Akins<br>
<b>Sent:</b> woensdag 29 april 2015 15:12<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Electron</span></div>
</div>
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<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_5908"> </div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_5909"><span style="color:black;">Hi All</span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_5910"><span style="color:black;"> </span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_5912"><span style="color:black;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_5911">Martin and John W have asked an interesting question. What is quantized?</span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_5921"><span style="color:black;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_5920">I have been doing electrical engineering work for about 40 years, and it is obvious that all EM fields do not exhibit spin properties. In radio, cell phones, RF signals, we have to carefully design the antenna
if we want spin (circular polarization). It is possible that horizontal or vertical signals have equal quantities of right and left circular components that we cannot detect independently, but this seems unlikely. For if those components were present we would
be able to receive the plane polarized signal with about half power using a circularly polarized antenna, and we would be able to pass a plane polarized photon through a plane polarizer and then a circular polarizer and have light at half power as a result.
But neither of these conditions seem to be met when we observe the nature of EM waves.</span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_6673"><span style="color:#1F497D;"> </span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_6675"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_6674">Well, what you describe is what actually happens! Half the power will come through.</span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_6676"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;"> </span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_6678"><span style="color:black;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_6677">This seems to indicate that the particles which emit photons produce the spin?
</span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_6680"><span style="color:black;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_6679">Only certain quantities of energy can be emitted and absorbed by discrete energy in a resonant system, and only at certain frequencies.</span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_6681"><span style="color:black;"> </span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;">Does this indicate that photons are quantized only by the nature of the emitter and absorber? Are photons, and fields, quantized? Or are fields only quantized when confined in a particle?</span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;"> </span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_6694"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;">This is indeed what it is all about.</span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_9335"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_9334">I can give one important answer, and I believe each of us will have to agree:</span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;"> </span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_6693"><b id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_6692"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_6691">“The photon is that thing that represents/characterizes precisely all that is exchanged in an electromagnetic interaction”</span></b></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;"> </span></b></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;">All please comment to help to make this statement as powerful and true as possible!</span></i></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;">What the statement does not say is whether the electromagnetic field is quantized or not, the interaction is, that is all we can say. This may be the result
of the nature of the emitter and absorber or of the electromagnetic fields, or both.</span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_9333"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;"> </span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_9332"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_9331">My position is that the EM-fields are not quantized and that the quantized interaction is due to the emitter and absorber. This implies that all emitters (and
all absorber) must have some universal structure at a deep level that makes that photons always look the way they do. That this can be true is not obvious. Hence it looks easier to attribute quantization to the field. However, this has not lead to much better
understanding of what is going on and that is why , after a century, we (luckily) can have a conference about it!</span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_9330"><span style="color:black;"> </span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;">As an aside: What is the best, and most economical way to refer to the difference between photons (light speed particles) and spin ½ particles which are at rest when stationary?
</span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_9329"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;"> </span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_9328"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;">Bosons and fermions?</span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;"> </span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;">Are photons particles or do they just appear to be particles in their interaction with the absorbing particles?
</span><span style="color:#1F497D;"></span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;"> </span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;">I say the latter.</span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;"> </span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;">If we emit a very low level, continuous stream of EM radiation at a double slit experiment, wouldn’t the target only show signs of that radiation one particle at a time?
</span><span style="color:#1F497D;"></span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;"> </span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;">If you make a Fock state (number state) of one particle, yes. It is not good enough to just dim the light (see piles of experiments and literature)</span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;"> </span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;">As a particular particle (electron) absorbed enough energy to become dislodged, wouldn’t it produce the speckles we see in such experiments? Wouldn’t we have to have a frequency high enough to meet the absorbers
resonant conditions for becoming dislodged before any electrons would be freed? So exactly why is it then that we feel that double slit experiments prove that light is quantized?</span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;"> </span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_6688"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_6687">They do not prove that, the douible slit experiment shows that em-radiation is a wave.</span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_6685"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_6686">The clicks in a detector, given a fock state, or in a photon correlation experiment show that the interaction is quantized. (I cannot give the full answer,
it is too long, go read the liereature)</span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_6684"><span style="color:black;"> </span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_6683"><span style="color:black;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_6682">It is easy to understand that light emitted from discrete energy resonant systems (particles) will have a specific energy content and a specific frequency, and therefore appear quantized. It is also easy to see
that these particles, as absorbers, will only accept energy of specific quantities and frequency content. But does that describe the nature of light itself or just the nature of the emitter and absorber?</span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;"> </span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;">One really, really cannot tell just like that, but I go for the latter. Why? Circumstantial evidence and all, all, all of my experience. It means nothing for
proving the fact, but is of greatest importance to drive science into one direction, fail or win.</span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;"> </span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_7090"><span style="color:black;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_7089">I have been able to get far enough into Bell’s theorem, and the effect that two non-commuting rotations have on that theorem, to feel that a simple set of local variables (rotations) can account for effects which
we have thought to be “entanglement”. It seems that entanglement may be an illusion we have had due to our lack of understanding of the processes at work.</span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_7137"><span style="color:#1F497D;"> </span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_7139"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_7138">Entanglement of particles is real. Experimentally proven. It also has a sound theoretical foundation. This is how quantum mechanics works. However, that does
not mean that we understand why it works that way in all respects. Also it does not mean that quantum mechanics is totally complete or correct about some other things. But quantum mechanics is correct about this one!!! And it is the most puzzling thing there
is.</span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_7141"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_7140">And one warning, just in case, I am just the messenger here, so do not try to shoot me again, please.</span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_7142"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;"> </span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_7144"><span style="color:black;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_7143">So again the question. Are photons just EM waves which appear to be quantized due to the emitters and absorbers, or are photons themselves, due to their own forces and fields, quantized?</span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_7145"><span style="color:#1F497D;"> </span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_7225"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_7224">This question can be answered using the statement I made earlier:</span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_7228"><b id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_7227"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_7226">“The photon is that thing that represents/characterizes precisely all that is exchanged in an electromagnetic interaction”</span></b></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_7229"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;">The better question is:</span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_7232"><b id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_7231"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_7230">“Are electromagnetic waves quantized by their own nature, or is this the result of the nature of the emitter and absorber”</span></b></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_7233"><span style="color:#1F497D;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_7235"> </span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_7237"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_7238">Chip, thanks for helping me utter this. I believe it is most relevant and very useful for the conference.</span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_7239"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;">Cheers, Martin</span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_9325"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;"> </span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_9324"><span style="color:black;">Chip</span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_9323"><span style="color:black;"> </span></div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_9320">
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_9319">
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_9318"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_9322"> General [<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_9321">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Mark, Martin van der<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 28, 2015 5:34 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Electron</span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_9317"> </div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_9316">
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_9315">John, i like that remark!</div>
</div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_9314">
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_9313">By the way i still must come back to the gravitational field and rest mass, proper mass, invariant mass or intrinsic mass confusion we talked about earlier. I was at one point talking at crossed purpose with you, i have realized, when you
were talking about a conservative gravitational field (such as truely exists in an accelerating rocket) and i was not paying proper attention. What i should have said is that one can only measure the invariant mass by local comparison with a standard mass.</div>
</div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_9312">
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430322772384_9311">So one must bring the standard mass (together with the balance) from ground floor to second floor if one wants to way the electron that happens to live just there. </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal">Anyway, i apologize for the extra confusion,</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal">Best, Martin<br>
<br>
Verstuurd vanaf mijn iPhone</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><br>
Op 28 apr. 2015 om 22:00 heeft John Duffield <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:johnduffield@btconnect.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:johnduffield@btconnect.com">johnduffield@btconnect.com</a>> het volgende geschreven:</div>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;">
<div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;">David:</span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;"> </span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;">Forgive me for interrupting, but IMHO the electron acts as flywheel that is rotating like a flywheel, and like a smoke ring. There are two orthogonal rotations.
See the <a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirac_spinor">Dirac spinor</a> article on Wikipedia? See where it mentions bispinor? A bispinor is a spin half spinner. It has intrinsic spin like a tornado has intrinsic spin<i>. It makes it what it is</i>. Take
the spin away from a tornado, and all you’ve got is wind. Take the spin away from an electron, and all you’ve got is light.
</span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;"> </span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;">Regards</span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;">John D</span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;"><img border="0" width="318" height="238" id="yiv4367894422Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:jApTj422T98xK0oegaRg" data-id="3ef9bbfe-e17e-7d20-16fe-dd9d18b71926"></span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;"> </span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;"> </span></div>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm;">
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> General [<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>David Mathes<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 28 April 2015 20:44<br>
<b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Electron</span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal"> </div>
<div>
<div id="yiv4367894422yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22551">
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">Chip</span></div>
</div>
<div id="yiv4367894422yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22551">
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"> </span></div>
</div>
<div id="yiv4367894422yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22551">
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">Does the electron act as a flywheel?</span></div>
</div>
<div id="yiv4367894422yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22551">
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"> </span></div>
</div>
<div id="yiv4367894422yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22551">
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">David</span></div>
</div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><br>
<br>
</span></div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:3.75pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;">
<div id="yiv4367894422yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22555">
<div id="yiv4367894422yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22554">
<div id="yiv4367894422yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22553">
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center;background:white;">
<span style="color:black;">
<hr size="1" width="100%" align="center">
</span></div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black;"> Chip Akins <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com">chipakins@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>To:</b> 'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion' <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 28, 2015 12:36 PM<br>
<b id="yiv4367894422yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22559">Subject:</b> Re: [General] Electron</span></div>
</div>
<div id="yiv4367894422yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22564">
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"> </span></div>
<div id="yiv4367894422">
<div id="yiv4367894422yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22563">
<div id="yiv4367894422yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22562">
<div id="yiv4367894422yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22561">
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">Hi Martin</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"> </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">Yes, I had imagined that the spiral structure would hold with acceleration, perhaps slowing a bit in rotation, but the energy in the fields would presumably
be concentrated more toward the center making the apparent frequency higher.</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"> </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">The red and blue lines are mostly for my use, I can change the colors easily if that will help. What color convention seems best?
</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">It seemed interesting how close to spherical the entire system becomes with rotation. After adding the magnetic fields it may appear even more spherical.</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"> </span></div>
</div>
<div id="yiv4367894422yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22566">
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">Hi David</span></div>
</div>
<div id="yiv4367894422yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22567">
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"> </span></div>
</div>
<div id="yiv4367894422yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22569">
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">Thank you. I will begin labeling these. However the model is symmetrical so the direction of spin is equatorial, but ambiguous (either left or right)
until the magnetic fields are added to the model. When adding the magnetic fields we choose a direction of spin which determines the magnetic poles, then of course, spin direction becomes definable in reference to those poles.</span></div>
</div>
<div id="yiv4367894422yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22570">
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"> </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">Chip</span></div>
</div>
<div id="yiv4367894422yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22571">
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"> </span></div>
</div>
<div id="yiv4367894422yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22576">
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm;" id="yiv4367894422yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22575">
<div id="yiv4367894422yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22574">
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black;"> General [<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Mark, Martin van der<br>
<b id="yiv4367894422yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22577">Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 28, 2015 6:37 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br>
<b id="yiv4367894422yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22579">Subject:</b> Re: [General] position</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div id="yiv4367894422yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22580">
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"> </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;">Hi Chip,
</span></div>
</div>
<div id="yiv4367894422yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22582">
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;">Thank you for this very nice modeling, it is very good food for imagining things.</span></div>
</div>
<div id="yiv4367894422yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22584">
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;">Just a loose remark, it doesn’t matter a bit, why make negative red and positive blue? It is the weirdest convention I’ve seen. Maybe
you do this on purpose just to triggers and not take any convention for granted!</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;">Anyway, what I really like to say with respect to the modelling of the photon is that the spiral structure around the line of propagation
seems to be fractal or infinite or whatever. It occurred to me that there must be Some kind of fixed spiral structure that will mimic a spatial shrink by a factor of gamma while it is only the field strength over that spiral that changes, reallyl If you have
modeled just that, then I think it is utterly brilliant. It reminds me of a infinitely broadband spiral antenna!!!! Whatever, you have helped me to gain a very interesting insight, thank you.</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;">The electron animation looks cool to, but in my mind no immediate observation condenses to something useful yet.</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;"> </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;">Log spiral antennas:</span></div>
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<div>
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<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;"> </span></div>
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<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;"> </span></div>
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<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.google.nl/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=images&cd=&ved=0CAcQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsuperkuh.com%2Fspiralantenna.html&ei=D3A_VYSXNsrZPdmOgbgL&bvm=bv.91665533,d.d2s&psig=AFQjCNETagmdpl9_jVAhXKruvRJBCfqn8g&ust=1430307130240990">http://www.google.nl/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=images&cd=&ved=0CAcQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsuperkuh.com%2Fspiralantenna.html&ei=D3A_VYSXNsrZPdmOgbgL&bvm=bv.91665533,d.d2s&psig=AFQjCNETagmdpl9_jVAhXKruvRJBCfqn8g&ust=1430307130240990</a></span></div>
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<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;"> </span></div>
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<div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;">Cheers, Martin</span></div>
</div>
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<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;"> </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span lang="DE" style="font-size:10.0pt;color:navy;">Dr. Martin B. van der Mark</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:navy;">Principal Scientist, Minimally Invasive Healthcare</span></div>
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<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:navy;"> </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:navy;">Philips Research Europe - Eindhoven</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:navy;">High Tech Campus, Building 34 (WB2.025)</span></div>
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<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:navy;">Prof. Holstlaan 4</span></div>
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<div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:navy;">5656 AE Eindhoven, The Netherlands</span></div>
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<div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:navy;">Tel: +31 40 2747548</span></div>
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<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;"> </span></div>
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<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black;"> General [</span><span style="color:black;"><a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black;">]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Chip Akins<br>
<b>Sent:</b> dinsdag 28 april 2015 1:45<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] position</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"> </span></div>
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<div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">Hi Martin, John W, Vivian and all</span></div>
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<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"> </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">Attached is a video of an envisioned set of field lines for an electron model.</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">Red lines are the more negative and blue the more positive ends of the field lines.</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">There is a spiral shape to the field lines which assumes they have a fixed velocity. That aspect does not come through completely in the animation.
It is also assumed that similar fields repel each other and that confinement places a limit on the repulsive effect. The confined photon, which comprises the electron model, is one Compton wavelength, and makes a double loop. Sorry, the animation does not
yet rotate exactly around the center, still working on that one. It is also assumed that the electron will have an additional “tumble” which is not yet modeled. The electric field is depicted but the magnetic field is not yet in the animation.</span></div>
</div>
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<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"> </span></div>
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<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">Watching the video, it seems you, Martin, are correct in that this type of model may display ½ integral spin from any direction.</span></div>
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<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"> </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">The intent is to attempt to go as deeply into the modeling as reasonably possible, to see if we can learn more of the details. This seems to be required
in order to reach the goal of modeling interactions more accurately.</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"> </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">The color of the lines fades to white as the field strength drops off. (Of course the fields keep going, but become weaker with distance from the transport
radius.)</span></div>
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<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"> </span></div>
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<div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">Thoughts, suggestions, and criticism are welcomed.</span></div>
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<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"> </span></div>
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<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">Chip</span></div>
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<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"> </span></div>
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<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black;"> General [</span><span style="color:black;"><a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black;">]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Mark, Martin van der<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, April 27, 2015 3:01 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] position</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"> </span></div>
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<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">Dear Andrew,</span></div>
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<div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">It is a monumental task to keep track of everything, i have the same problem, but perhaps there are even more things that nobody seems to have mentioned,
but can still also be found in a paper published in Annales de la fondation Louis de Broglie in 1997. ;-)</span></div>
</div>
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<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">Every fundamental particle must effectively be a single-mode cavity both containing and resulting from its own energy. It is three dimensional by diffraction
of the almost infinite wavetrain that is biting its own tail in a single wavelength (mono mode) cavity. Well, actually, two polarization modes are allowed, giving rise to two spin states of the object. It is plausible, but remains to be proven rigorously,
that a double loop gives the right equipartition of spin1/2 , simultaneous in all directions if the basic circulation is spin 1. The latter is what john and i put in: the photon, hence the title: Is the electron a photon with toroidal topology?</span></div>
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<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"> </span></div>
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<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">Cheers, Martin<br>
<br>
Verstuurd vanaf mijn iPhone</span></div>
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<div style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;">
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><br>
Op 27 apr. 2015 om 21:00 heeft Andrew Meulenberg <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:mules333@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:mules333@gmail.com">mules333@gmail.com</a>> het volgende geschreven:</span></div>
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<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">Dear Richard,</span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;">
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">Something that no one seems to have mentioned/noticed is that the bound photon, as a stationary electron, should have a spherical rather than a circular
path. Only in this manner can it have angular momentum in all and any directions. Also, when moving, even slowly, relativistic effects will 'flatten' the sphere in the direction of motion. This flattening will raise the energy, increase the inertia, and introduce
the <b>E</b>-field distortions called magnetic field, <b>B</b>.</span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;">
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">The path distortion from the spherical with motion gives a helical path for some portion of the photon length. The path is much more complicated for
elements of the path that are not normal to the direction of motion. The photon itself may be a standing wave moving at c. If so, elements of the wave move faster than c and later move slower than c. In the electron, the same thing may happen. Only the average
velocity is limited to c. Since the photon is a wave, the phase velocity can greatly exceed c, before the electron velocity becomes relativistic.</span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;">
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">Andrew<br>
__________________________________</span></div>
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<div style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;">
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"> </span></div>
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<div>
<div style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;">
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 7:02 PM, Richard Gauthier <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com">richgauthier@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</span></div>
</div>
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<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">Andrew and all,</span></div>
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<div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"> Here’s a design challenge: design a single or double-looped circulating charged photon (either of spin 1 or spin 1/2) that models an electron and
whose electric field satisfies Gauss’ law and generates the electron’s charge -e from its electric field, while its magnetic field generates the electron’s magnetic moment (or at least the Bohr magneton ehbar/2m). The charged photon should travel at light
speed and obey the relations E=hf and p=h/lambda. It should move in a circular path when the electron is at rest and in a helical path when the electron moves at non-relativistic or relativistic velocities, and should continue to generate the charge -e from
Gauss’ law while the electron is in motion. Indicate what modification(s) if any of Maxwell’s equations are necessary to do this (they should be as few as possible, if any).</span></div>
</div>
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<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"> Richard</span></div>
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<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"> </span></div>
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<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;">
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<div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">On Apr 26, 2015, at 9:04 AM, Andrew Meulenberg <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:mules333@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:mules333@gmail.com">mules333@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</span></div>
</div>
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<div style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;">
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"> </span></div>
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<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"> Dear All,</span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;">
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><br>
Bob has addressed a point that should be too obvious to need consideration. However, for many years, I ignored it and it appears that most of us still do so. Conservation of charge. While it is possible to posit and describe the electron in terms of a photon,
recognition of the requirement for charge conservation and the positive and negative (but net neutral) nature of all photons must be accepted as a 'given'.</span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;">
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">It is for this reason that I have proposed the 4-D structure of the electron/positron pair. It explains so much and leads beyond the electron-only structure.
I believe that this has to be a fundamental position for all of us - to be accepted, explained, and/or modeled in various ways. If not, then I fear that, as John W says, we will be unable "... to convince people we are not crazies..."</span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;">
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">The point is that while the 'twist' can explain the net charge of an electron, it presents the problem of what happens to the opposite field lines.
They cannot be confined inside a 3-D container (topologically impossible w/o a charge source). My field-rectification and wormhole conjecture may not be the answer; but, it does address the problem. The field lines, as the gradient of a potential, presents
a picture that Bob and I will be proposing for the dynamic potentials of standing waves within an interference pattern.</span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;">
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">The question is, "since there is no original potential within the space that becomes an electron, how does it get there?" Actually, to create an electron/positron
pair, a strong electrical-potential gradient (such as a nucleus) must exist. However, after the lepton pair is formed, the nucleus structure is left behind and remains unaffected. The potential(s) formed are balanced and become the lepton masses. They are
separated in space by the nuclear potential gradient. Are they also separated and combined in 'time'? If so, how and by what. The energy density of the 'internal' field lines being compressed, by the photon 'curling' as it passes the nucleus, will distort
space (into time) and help create the wormhole joining the field structures that will become the lepton pair.</span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;">
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">This distortion is the electric potential created in the formation process. The womhole is the vortex that gives the pair stability (and perhaps their
ultimate independence).</span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;">
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">If anyone can come up with other (perhaps better) models, or reasons why such might not be required, please bring them forth.</span></div>
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<div style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;">
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">Andrew<br>
____________________________________</span></div>
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<div style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;">
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"> </span></div>
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<div style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;">
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">On Sun, Apr 26, 2015 at 8:17 AM, robert hudgins <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:hudginswr@msn.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:hudginswr@msn.com">hudginswr@msn.com</a>> wrote:</span></div>
</div>
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<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">Dear Friends of Light, <br>
Pardon my intrusion on your discussion. I have been warned that I will be excluded unless I actively participate. <br>
<br>
Chip's diagram's are beautiful! His skill is enviable. However, it provokes questions. Why spin h and not 1/2? Are colors charge related? <br>
<br>
The photon may be a useful abstraction for expressing the way light energy is packaged, rather than a stable, traceable entity. After the photon energy has been assembled it may travel as a loosely entangled assembly of EM waves that may follow unpredictable
paths-- until they are condensed and captured by a resonator. Though the electron is clearly more discreet, it might also travel as an assembly of waves that pass through both openings of a double slit while engaging in constructive or destructive interference. <br>
I am having conceptual difficulty imagining a topological twist that totally conceals only the positive charge of a photon. <br>
<br>
Is an EM wave having only negative polarity a plausible construct? Are electrons without a positive partners being created with any frequency today?<br>
<br>
Thanks for your patience,<br>
Bob</span></div>
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<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center;background:white;">
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<div style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;">
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">From: <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com">chipakins@gmail.com</a><br>
To: <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a><br>
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2015 17:59:56 -0500<br>
Subject: Re: [General] Einstein Philosophy by Dyson</span></div>
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<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">Hi All</span></div>
</div>
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<div style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;">
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"> </span></div>
</div>
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<div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">Just finished computing a possible field topology for a photon with spin h.</span></div>
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<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">Viewed from the longitudinal axis:</span></div>
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<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><image001.jpg></span></div>
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<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">And the side…</span></div>
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<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">Chip</span></div>
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<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><b><span style="color:black;">From:</span></b><span style="color:black;"> General [mailto:<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:general-bounces%2Bchipakins" target="_blank" href="mailto:general-bounces%2Bchipakins">general-bounces+chipakins</a>=<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>] <b>On
Behalf Of </b>Mark, Martin van der<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, April 25, 2015 6:47 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Einstein Philosophy by Dyson</span></div>
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<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">Dear Chandra,</span></div>
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<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">I agree. I think that Einstein was even more right than he realized himself, but the future must show us.</span></div>
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<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">Bohr did a great job on finding the structure of the atom and introduced a revoltionary way of thinking to hold up the postulates required. That way
of thinking, however, is merely a scafolding, and it should be removed to see the truth and beauty lying hidden behind it.</span></div>
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<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">Copenhagen interpretation is now no more than a dogma that hampers progress!</span></div>
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<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">Cheers, Martin</span></div>
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<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">Op 25 apr. 2015 om 01:32 heeft chandra <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:chandra@phys.uconn.edu" target="_blank" href="mailto:chandra@phys.uconn.edu">chandra@phys.uconn.edu</a>> het volgende geschreven:</span></div>
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<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">Friends: </span></div>
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<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">For a brief moment, allow me to change the subject. Freeman Dyson is an excellent writer. In the last part of his “Book Review” article (attached),
Dyson beautifully summarizes the three philosophical positions of Einstein (Classical), Bohr (Duality) and the current generation (Quantum-Only). To save time and to get to the philosophy segment, jump to the bottom of the picture showing Bohr and Einstein
goofing and relaxing!</span></div>
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<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">My philosophical position is more in line with Einstein; while acknowledging that the one of the three key reasons behind the emergence of quantum uncertainty
is “because the processes in the second layer are unobservable” (Dyson). This is why I have proposed, with demonstrated experiments in my book (“Causal Physics”), that when we start framing our enquiring postulates to imagine and visualize the invisible interaction
processes, the nature start to become a lot more transparent even within the current QM formalisms. Further, this philosophy of Interaction Process Mapping Epistemology (IPME) shows that current QM, in spite of its great successes, a next generation formalism
with deeper levels of enquiry has to be developed by the next generation. In other words, I am suggesting that our Knowledge Gatekeepers should change their blind devotion to currently successful theories and encourage the next generation to come up with various
serious but radically different possible approaches. Our conference platform is one such example.</span></div>
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<div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">If we do not deliberately frame our enquiring questions to visualize the invisible aspects of nature’s interaction processes; we will forever remain
in the darkness of duality. Duality represents ignorance; it does not represent new or better knowledge. We have to go beyond Bohr.</span></div>
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<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">Chandra.</span></div>
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<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><a rel="nofollow" name="14cfb147c7bcb94f_14cf64a3c4683655_14cf39" href=""><span class="yiv4367894422MsoHyperlink"><span style="color:black;"> </span></span></a></div>
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<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><b><span style="color:black;">From:</span></b><span style="color:black;"> General [<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:general-bounces+chandra=phys.uconn.edu@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:general-bounces+chandra=phys.uconn.edu@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">mailto:general-bounces+chandra=phys.uconn.edu@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>] <b>On
Behalf Of </b>John Williamson<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, April 24, 2015 9:46 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> David Mathes; Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Manohar .; Nick Bailey; Anthony Booth; Ariane Mandray<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Articles of interest</span></div>
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<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">Dear David and everyone,</span></div>
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<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">Sounds as though MIT does a bit of a better job of promoting itself than I do (what a surprise!).</span></div>
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<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">There is nothing much new in looking at single electrons. SLAC was doing this for years in HEP with its linear accelerator. For that matter Millikan
was sensitive to single electrons with his oil-drop experiment – and the school I went to was enlightened enough to let me do this experiment myself at the age of sixteen or so. What is marvelous is that they can make it sound as though detecting one electron
something sexy! Robert Hadfield (in our group) is in the business of detecting single photons and John Weaver (in our group) has huge capability to look at individual electrons with some of his work as well. This stuff is widely published!</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">More important than looking at detecting single electrons (easy enough!) is looking at the underlying sub-electron structure. Back in the late 1980’s
and early 1990’s I was in the business of looking at just that. I designed a single electron electrometer sensitive at down to about a thousandth of the electron charge. If you look at my Google scholar page you can find several papers related to this. The
device could also be used as a single electron pump, to deliver a stream of electrons phase locked to the frequency of a varying gate potential. My paper (see attached), looking at the electron sub-structure delivered electrons one-at-a-time and probe the
profile of the individual electron wave-function with a resolution of better than a tenth of its de Broglie wavelength. This experimental work did not stop when I left the field of course. Leo Kouwenhoven, in particular, spent many years investigating my single-electron
electrometer device (and creating new ones) in the last quarter of a century. There is now a very great deal of experimental information about the inner structure of matter, electrons (and photons) with which to work. </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">What was lacking then, and is still not widely accepted now, is a proper theoretical framework within which to interpret this inner structure. This
is what we have to do. Firstly develop the theoretical framework and secondly get the message out. </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">We have to convince people we are not crazies and that this is serious, new science. That is what will be hard. Any communications of this to the outside
world needs to get rid of the speculative , ill informed, or just plain wrong stuff that is perfectly ok within the context of an online discussion or over a pint or two, but not ok at all if we wish to make a serious attempt at convincing the outside world. </span></div>
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<div class="yiv4367894422MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">Regards, John.</span></div>
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