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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-GB link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#8E0E91;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Chip:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#8E0E91;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#8E0E91;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>I mostly agree with what Martin said. I’ll give my feedback in magenta:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'>Martin and John W have asked an interesting question. What is quantized?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#8E0E91'>I think light is quantized. And because it’s quantized, electrons are 511keV electrons. Not 510keV electrons, and not 512 keV electrons. See <a href="http://photontheory.com/Kemp/Kemp.html">this</a> for a stab at why. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'>I have been doing electrical engineering work for about 40 years, and it is obvious that all EM fields do not exhibit spin properties. In radio, cell phones, RF signals, we have to carefully design the antenna if we want spin (circular polarization).</span><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#8E0E91'>I don’t think spin is the same as circular polarization. See <a href="http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/phyopt/polclas.html">hyperphysics</a>, there’s two orthogonal out-of-phase waves. The net electric vector rotates, but the waves don’t. Besides, electromagnetic waves are usually shown as orthogonal electric and magnetic waves, but these are mere the spatial and time derivative of potential. The potential is like a pulse, like a lemon, see <a href="http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2012/aug/10/photon-shape-could-be-used-to-encode-quantum-information">this</a> physicsworld article. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'>This seems to indicate that the particles which emit photons produce the spin? <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#8E0E91'>I’m sure they do, but it’s a chicken-and-egg thing, and don’t forget the rotation along the direction of motion, as per <a href="http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Deep_water_wave.gif">the ocean wave</a>. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#8E0E91'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'>Only certain quantities of energy can be emitted and absorbed by discrete energy in a resonant system, and only at certain frequencies.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#8E0E91'>A photon can have any energy or wavelength, but it still has its E=hf quantum nature</span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>. </span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#8E0E91'>IMHO the quantum nature is in the h. </span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'>Does this indicate that photons are quantized only by the nature of the emitter and absorber? </span><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#8E0E91'>Chicken and egg, but I think the answer is no. I think photons are quantized because of the nature of space. </span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'>As an aside: What is the best, and most economical way to refer to the difference between photons (light speed particles) and spin ½ particles which are at rest when stationary? <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#8E0E91'>See how Martin mentioned bosons and fermions? Two waves can ride over one another, but two vortices cannot overlap. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#8E0E91'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'>Are photons particles or do they just appear to be particles in their interaction with the absorbing particles?</span><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#8E0E91'>They’re waves, they take many paths. They only look pointlike in interactions because something like an optical Fourier transform occurs. Electrons are waves too, only they’re waves going round and round. We call them particles, even though we can diffract them. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#8E0E91'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'>It is easy to understand that light emitted from discrete energy resonant systems (particles) will have a specific energy content and a specific frequency, and therefore appear quantized.</span><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#8E0E91'>IMHO the quantum nature of light is in the h, not the E. A photon can have any wavelength or energy you like. But it’s always the same h. If you’ve got a guitar, play a low note, then a high note. What’s the same? Not the wavelength. The amplitude of your pluck. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'>It is also easy to see that these particles, as absorbers, will only accept energy of specific quantities and frequency content. But does that describe the nature of light itself or just the nature of the emitter and absorber?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#8E0E91'>The emitter and absorber. </span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'>I have been able to get far enough into Bell’s theorem, and the effect that two non-commuting rotations have on that theorem, to feel that a simple set of local variables (rotations) can account for effects which we have thought to be “entanglement”. It seems that entanglement may be an illusion we have had due to our lack of understanding of the processes at work.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#8E0E91'>I note what Martin said, but would venture to suggest that entanglement is best left for a future date.</span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'>So again the question. Are photons just EM waves which appear to be quantized due to the emitters and absorbers, or are photons themselves, due to their own forces and fields, quantized?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#8E0E91'>The latter. IMHO the quantum nature of light is in that h. The dimensionality of action is momentum x distance, and it’s always the same distance, just like your guitar-string pluck. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#8E0E91'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#8E0E91'>Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#8E0E91'>John D</span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#8E0E91'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> General [<a href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Mark, Martin van der<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 28, 2015 5:34 PM<br><b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Electron<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>John, i like that remark!<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>By the way i still must come back to the gravitational field and rest mass, proper mass, invariant mass or intrinsic mass confusion we talked about earlier. I was at one point talking at crossed purpose with you, i have realized, when you were talking about a conservative gravitational field (such as truely exists in an accelerating rocket) and i was not paying proper attention. What i should have said is that one can only measure the invariant mass by local comparison with a standard mass.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>So one must bring the standard mass (together with the balance) from ground floor to second floor if one wants to way the electron that happens to live just there. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>Anyway, i apologize for the extra confusion,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>Best, Martin<br><br>Verstuurd vanaf mijn iPhone<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=EN-US><br>Op 28 apr. 2015 om 22:00 heeft John Duffield <<a href="mailto:johnduffield@btconnect.com">johnduffield@btconnect.com</a>> het volgende geschreven:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>David:</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Forgive me for interrupting, but IMHO the electron acts as flywheel that is rotating like a flywheel, and like a smoke ring. There are two orthogonal rotations. See the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirac_spinor">Dirac spinor</a> article on Wikipedia? See where it mentions bispinor? A bispinor is a spin half spinner. It has intrinsic spin like a tornado has intrinsic spin<i>. It makes it what it is</i>. Take the spin away from a tornado, and all you’ve got is wind. Take the spin away from an electron, and all you’ve got is light. </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Regards</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>John D</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><img border=0 width=318 height=238 id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.jpg@01D082A6.5B7B65A0"></span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> General [<a href="mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>David Mathes<br><b>Sent:</b> 28 April 2015 20:44<br><b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Electron</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22551"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Chip</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22551"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22551"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Does the electron act as a flywheel?</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22551"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22551"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>David</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><br><br></span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:3.75pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22555"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22554"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22553"><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center;background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><hr size=1 width="100%" align=center></span></div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'> Chip Akins <<a href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com">chipakins@gmail.com</a>><br><b>To:</b> 'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion' <<a href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>> <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 28, 2015 12:36 PM<br><b id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22559">Subject:</b> Re: [General] Electron</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22564"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><div id=yiv3335289798><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22563"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22562"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22561"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Hi Martin</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Yes, I had imagined that the spiral structure would hold with acceleration, perhaps slowing a bit in rotation, but the energy in the fields would presumably be concentrated more toward the center making the apparent frequency higher.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>The red and blue lines are mostly for my use, I can change the colors easily if that will help. What color convention seems best? </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>It seemed interesting how close to spherical the entire system becomes with rotation. After adding the magnetic fields it may appear even more spherical.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22566"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Hi David</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22567"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22569"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Thank you. I will begin labeling these. However the model is symmetrical so the direction of spin is equatorial, but ambiguous (either left or right) until the magnetic fields are added to the model. When adding the magnetic fields we choose a direction of spin which determines the magnetic poles, then of course, spin direction becomes definable in reference to those poles.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22570"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Chip</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22571"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22576"><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm' id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22575"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22574"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> General [<a href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Mark, Martin van der<br><b id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22577">Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 28, 2015 6:37 AM<br><b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br><b id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22579">Subject:</b> Re: [General] position</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22580"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Hi Chip, </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22582"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Thank you for this very nice modeling, it is very good food for imagining things.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22584"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Just a loose remark, it doesn’t matter a bit, why make negative red and positive blue? It is the weirdest convention I’ve seen. Maybe you do this on purpose just to triggers and not take any convention for granted!</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Anyway, what I really like to say with respect to the modelling of the photon is that the spiral structure around the line of propagation seems to be fractal or infinite or whatever. It occurred to me that there must be Some kind of fixed spiral structure that will mimic a spatial shrink by a factor of gamma while it is only the field strength over that spiral that changes, reallyl If you have modeled just that, then I think it is utterly brilliant. It reminds me of a infinitely broadband spiral antenna!!!! Whatever, you have helped me to gain a very interesting insight, thank you.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>The electron animation looks cool to, but in my mind no immediate observation condenses to something useful yet.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Log spiral antennas:</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><a href="http://www.google.nl/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=images&cd=&ved=0CAcQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Ftolijojed.net%2Flog-spiral-antenna-pattern%2F&ei=7m8_VY2wNYe_PPXtgeAE&bvm=bv.91665533,d.d2s&psig=AFQjCNETagmdpl9_jVAhXKruvRJBCfqn8g&ust=1430307130240990" target="_blank">http://www.google.nl/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=images&cd=&ved=0CAcQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Ftolijojed.net%2Flog-spiral-antenna-pattern%2F&ei=7m8_VY2wNYe_PPXtgeAE&bvm=bv.91665533,d.d2s&psig=AFQjCNETagmdpl9_jVAhXKruvRJBCfqn8g&ust=1430307130240990</a></span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><a href="http://www.google.nl/imgres?imgurl=http://www.ems.elektro.dtu.dk/~/media/Centre/EMS_Electromagnetic_Systems/english/research/research_projects/projects/spiral_antenna/spiral_antenna02.ashx%253Fla%253Dda&imgrefurl=http://www.ems.elektro.dtu.dk/research/research_projects/projects/spiral_antenna&h=141&w=294&tbnid=Ag91Xs0bJg6dRM:&zoom=1&docid=0Ucr7bBdv8H0NM&ei=uW8_VYq5KdHbaPe0gMgK&tbm=isch&ved=0CCQQMygFMAU" target="_blank">http://www.google.nl/imgres?imgurl=http://www.ems.elektro.dtu.dk/~/media/Centre/EMS_Electromagnetic_Systems/english/research/research_projects/projects/spiral_antenna/spiral_antenna02.ashx%253Fla%253Dda&imgrefurl=http://www.ems.elektro.dtu.dk/research/research_projects/projects/spiral_antenna&h=141&w=294&tbnid=Ag91Xs0bJg6dRM:&zoom=1&docid=0Ucr7bBdv8H0NM&ei=uW8_VYq5KdHbaPe0gMgK&tbm=isch&ved=0CCQQMygFMAU</a></span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><a href="http://www.google.nl/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=images&cd=&ved=0CAcQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsuperkuh.com%2Fspiralantenna.html&ei=D3A_VYSXNsrZPdmOgbgL&bvm=bv.91665533,d.d2s&psig=AFQjCNETagmdpl9_jVAhXKruvRJBCfqn8g&ust=1430307130240990" target="_blank">http://www.google.nl/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=images&cd=&ved=0CAcQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsuperkuh.com%2Fspiralantenna.html&ei=D3A_VYSXNsrZPdmOgbgL&bvm=bv.91665533,d.d2s&psig=AFQjCNETagmdpl9_jVAhXKruvRJBCfqn8g&ust=1430307130240990</a></span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Cheers, Martin</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=DE style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>Dr. Martin B. van der Mark</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>Principal Scientist, Minimally Invasive Healthcare</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:navy'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>Philips Research Europe - Eindhoven</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>High Tech Campus, Building 34 (WB2.025)</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>Prof. Holstlaan 4</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>5656 AE Eindhoven, The Netherlands</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>Tel: +31 40 2747548</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black'> General [</span><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><a href="mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a></span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black'>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Chip Akins<br><b>Sent:</b> dinsdag 28 april 2015 1:45<br><b>To:</b> 'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] position</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Hi Martin, John W, Vivian and all</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Attached is a video of an envisioned set of field lines for an electron model.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Red lines are the more negative and blue the more positive ends of the field lines.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>There is a spiral shape to the field lines which assumes they have a fixed velocity. That aspect does not come through completely in the animation. It is also assumed that similar fields repel each other and that confinement places a limit on the repulsive effect. The confined photon, which comprises the electron model, is one Compton wavelength, and makes a double loop. Sorry, the animation does not yet rotate exactly around the center, still working on that one. It is also assumed that the electron will have an additional “tumble” which is not yet modeled. The electric field is depicted but the magnetic field is not yet in the animation.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Watching the video, it seems you, Martin, are correct in that this type of model may display ½ integral spin from any direction.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>The intent is to attempt to go as deeply into the modeling as reasonably possible, to see if we can learn more of the details. This seems to be required in order to reach the goal of modeling interactions more accurately.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>The color of the lines fades to white as the field strength drops off. (Of course the fields keep going, but become weaker with distance from the transport radius.)</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Thoughts, suggestions, and criticism are welcomed.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Chip</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> General [</span><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><a href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a></span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Mark, Martin van der<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, April 27, 2015 3:01 PM<br><b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] position</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Dear Andrew,</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></blockquote><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>It is a monumental task to keep track of everything, i have the same problem, but perhaps there are even more things that nobody seems to have mentioned, but can still also be found in a paper published in Annales de la fondation Louis de Broglie in 1997. ;-)</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Every fundamental particle must effectively be a single-mode cavity both containing and resulting from its own energy. It is three dimensional by diffraction of the almost infinite wavetrain that is biting its own tail in a single wavelength (mono mode) cavity. Well, actually, two polarization modes are allowed, giving rise to two spin states of the object. It is plausible, but remains to be proven rigorously, that a double loop gives the right equipartition of spin1/2 , simultaneous in all directions if the basic circulation is spin 1. The latter is what john and i put in: the photon, hence the title: Is the electron a photon with toroidal topology?</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Cheers, Martin<br><br>Verstuurd vanaf mijn iPhone</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><br>Op 27 apr. 2015 om 21:00 heeft Andrew Meulenberg <<a href="mailto:mules333@gmail.com" target="_blank">mules333@gmail.com</a>> het volgende geschreven:</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><div><div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Dear Richard,</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Something that no one seems to have mentioned/noticed is that the bound photon, as a stationary electron, should have a spherical rather than a circular path. Only in this manner can it have angular momentum in all and any directions. Also, when moving, even slowly, relativistic effects will 'flatten' the sphere in the direction of motion. This flattening will raise the energy, increase the inertia, and introduce the <b>E</b>-field distortions called magnetic field, <b>B</b>.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>The path distortion from the spherical with motion gives a helical path for some portion of the photon length. The path is much more complicated for elements of the path that are not normal to the direction of motion. The photon itself may be a standing wave moving at c. If so, elements of the wave move faster than c and later move slower than c. In the electron, the same thing may happen. Only the average velocity is limited to c. Since the photon is a wave, the phase velocity can greatly exceed c, before the electron velocity becomes relativistic.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Andrew<br>__________________________________</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 7:02 PM, Richard Gauthier <<a href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" target="_blank">richgauthier@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Andrew and all,</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> Here’s a design challenge: design a single or double-looped circulating charged photon (either of spin 1 or spin 1/2) that models an electron and whose electric field satisfies Gauss’ law and generates the electron’s charge -e from its electric field, while its magnetic field generates the electron’s magnetic moment (or at least the Bohr magneton ehbar/2m). The charged photon should travel at light speed and obey the relations E=hf and p=h/lambda. It should move in a circular path when the electron is at rest and in a helical path when the electron moves at non-relativistic or relativistic velocities, and should continue to generate the charge -e from Gauss’ law while the electron is in motion. Indicate what modification(s) if any of Maxwell’s equations are necessary to do this (they should be as few as possible, if any).</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> Richard</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>On Apr 26, 2015, at 9:04 AM, Andrew Meulenberg <<a href="mailto:mules333@gmail.com" target="_blank">mules333@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> Dear All,</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><br>Bob has addressed a point that should be too obvious to need consideration. However, for many years, I ignored it and it appears that most of us still do so. Conservation of charge. While it is possible to posit and describe the electron in terms of a photon, recognition of the requirement for charge conservation and the positive and negative (but net neutral) nature of all photons must be accepted as a 'given'.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>It is for this reason that I have proposed the 4-D structure of the electron/positron pair. It explains so much and leads beyond the electron-only structure. I believe that this has to be a fundamental position for all of us - to be accepted, explained, and/or modeled in various ways. If not, then I fear that, as John W says, we will be unable "... to convince people we are not crazies..."</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>The point is that while the 'twist' can explain the net charge of an electron, it presents the problem of what happens to the opposite field lines. They cannot be confined inside a 3-D container (topologically impossible w/o a charge source). My field-rectification and wormhole conjecture may not be the answer; but, it does address the problem. The field lines, as the gradient of a potential, presents a picture that Bob and I will be proposing for the dynamic potentials of standing waves within an interference pattern.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>The question is, "since there is no original potential within the space that becomes an electron, how does it get there?" Actually, to create an electron/positron pair, a strong electrical-potential gradient (such as a nucleus) must exist. However, after the lepton pair is formed, the nucleus structure is left behind and remains unaffected. The potential(s) formed are balanced and become the lepton masses. They are separated in space by the nuclear potential gradient. Are they also separated and combined in 'time'? If so, how and by what. The energy density of the 'internal' field lines being compressed, by the photon 'curling' as it passes the nucleus, will distort space (into time) and help create the wormhole joining the field structures that will become the lepton pair.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>This distortion is the electric potential created in the formation process. The womhole is the vortex that gives the pair stability (and perhaps their ultimate independence).</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>If anyone can come up with other (perhaps better) models, or reasons why such might not be required, please bring them forth.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Andrew<br>____________________________________</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>On Sun, Apr 26, 2015 at 8:17 AM, robert hudgins <<a href="mailto:hudginswr@msn.com" target="_blank">hudginswr@msn.com</a>> wrote:</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><blockquote style='margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Dear Friends of Light, <br>Pardon my intrusion on your discussion. I have been warned that I will be excluded unless I actively participate. <br><br>Chip's diagram's are beautiful! His skill is enviable. However, it provokes questions. Why spin h and not 1/2? Are colors charge related? <br><br>The photon may be a useful abstraction for expressing the way light energy is packaged, rather than a stable, traceable entity. After the photon energy has been assembled it may travel as a loosely entangled assembly of EM waves that may follow unpredictable paths-- until they are condensed and captured by a resonator. Though the electron is clearly more discreet, it might also travel as an assembly of waves that pass through both openings of a double slit while engaging in constructive or destructive interference. <br>I am having conceptual difficulty imagining a topological twist that totally conceals only the positive charge of a photon. <br><br>Is an EM wave having only negative polarity a plausible construct? Are electrons without a positive partners being created with any frequency today?<br><br>Thanks for your patience,<br>Bob</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center;background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><hr size=2 width="100%" align=center></span></div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>From: <a href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com" target="_blank">chipakins@gmail.com</a><br>To: <a href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a><br>Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2015 17:59:56 -0500<br>Subject: Re: [General] Einstein Philosophy by Dyson</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Hi All</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Just finished computing a possible field topology for a photon with spin h.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Viewed from the longitudinal axis:</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><image001.jpg></span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>And the side…</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><image004.png></span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Chip</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> General [mailto:<a href="mailto:general-bounces%2Bchipakins" target="_blank">general-bounces+chipakins</a>=<a href="mailto:gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank">gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Mark, Martin van der<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, April 25, 2015 6:47 AM<br><b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Einstein Philosophy by Dyson</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Dear Chandra,</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>I agree. I think that Einstein was even more right than he realized himself, but the future must show us.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Bohr did a great job on finding the structure of the atom and introduced a revoltionary way of thinking to hold up the postulates required. That way of thinking, however, is merely a scafolding, and it should be removed to see the truth and beauty lying hidden behind it.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Copenhagen interpretation is now no more than a dogma that hampers progress!</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Cheers, Martin</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><blockquote style='margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Op 25 apr. 2015 om 01:32 heeft chandra <<a href="mailto:chandra@phys.uconn.edu" target="_blank">chandra@phys.uconn.edu</a>> het volgende geschreven:</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Friends: </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>For a brief moment, allow me to change the subject. Freeman Dyson is an excellent writer. In the last part of his “Book Review” article (attached), Dyson beautifully summarizes the three philosophical positions of Einstein (Classical), Bohr (Duality) and the current generation (Quantum-Only). To save time and to get to the philosophy segment, jump to the bottom of the picture showing Bohr and Einstein goofing and relaxing!</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>My philosophical position is more in line with Einstein; while acknowledging that the one of the three key reasons behind the emergence of quantum uncertainty is “because the processes in the second layer are unobservable” (Dyson). This is why I have proposed, with demonstrated experiments in my book (“Causal Physics”), that when we start framing our enquiring postulates to imagine and visualize the invisible interaction processes, the nature start to become a lot more transparent even within the current QM formalisms. Further, this philosophy of Interaction Process Mapping Epistemology (IPME) shows that current QM, in spite of its great successes, a next generation formalism with deeper levels of enquiry has to be developed by the next generation. In other words, I am suggesting that our Knowledge Gatekeepers should change their blind devotion to currently successful theories and encourage the next generation to come up with various serious but radically different possible approaches. Our conference platform is one such example.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>If we do not deliberately frame our enquiring questions to visualize the invisible aspects of nature’s interaction processes; we will forever remain in the darkness of duality. Duality represents ignorance; it does not represent new or better knowledge. We have to go beyond Bohr.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Chandra.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><a name="14cfb147c7bcb94f_14cf64a3c4683655_14cf39"><span class=MsoHyperlink><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span></span></a><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> General [<a href="mailto:general-bounces+chandra=phys.uconn.edu@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank">mailto:general-bounces+chandra=phys.uconn.edu@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>John Williamson<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, April 24, 2015 9:46 AM<br><b>To:</b> David Mathes; Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br><b>Cc:</b> Manohar .; Nick Bailey; Anthony Booth; Ariane Mandray<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Articles of interest</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Dear David and everyone,</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Sounds as though MIT does a bit of a better job of promoting itself than I do (what a surprise!).</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>There is nothing much new in looking at single electrons. SLAC was doing this for years in HEP with its linear accelerator. For that matter Millikan was sensitive to single electrons with his oil-drop experiment – and the school I went to was enlightened enough to let me do this experiment myself at the age of sixteen or so. What is marvelous is that they can make it sound as though detecting one electron something sexy! Robert Hadfield (in our group) is in the business of detecting single photons and John Weaver (in our group) has huge capability to look at individual electrons with some of his work as well. This stuff is widely published!</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>More important than looking at detecting single electrons (easy enough!) is looking at the underlying sub-electron structure. Back in the late 1980’s and early 1990’s I was in the business of looking at just that. I designed a single electron electrometer sensitive at down to about a thousandth of the electron charge. If you look at my Google scholar page you can find several papers related to this. The device could also be used as a single electron pump, to deliver a stream of electrons phase locked to the frequency of a varying gate potential. My paper (see attached), looking at the electron sub-structure delivered electrons one-at-a-time and probe the profile of the individual electron wave-function with a resolution of better than a tenth of its de Broglie wavelength. This experimental work did not stop when I left the field of course. Leo Kouwenhoven, in particular, spent many years investigating my single-electron electrometer device (and creating new ones) in the last quarter of a century. There is now a very great deal of experimental information about the inner structure of matter, electrons (and photons) with which to work. </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>What was lacking then, and is still not widely accepted now, is a proper theoretical framework within which to interpret this inner structure. This is what we have to do. Firstly develop the theoretical framework and secondly get the message out. </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>We have to convince people we are not crazies and that this is serious, new science. That is what will be hard. Any communications of this to the outside world needs to get rid of the speculative , ill informed, or just plain wrong stuff that is perfectly ok within the context of an online discussion or over a pint or two, but not ok at all if we wish to make a serious attempt at convincing the outside world. </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Regards, John.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>_______________________________________________<br>If you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light and Particles General Discussion List at <a href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" target="_blank">richgauthier@gmail.com</a><br><a href="<a href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/richgauthier%40gmail.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1" target="_blank">http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/richgauthier%40gmail.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1</a>"><br>Click here to unsubscribe<br></a></span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></blockquote></div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><br>_______________________________________________<br>If you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light and Particles General Discussion List at <a href="mailto:mules333@gmail.com" target="_blank">mules333@gmail.com</a><br><a href="<a href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/mules333%40gmail.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1" target="_blank">http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/mules333%40gmail.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1</a>"><br>Click here to unsubscribe<br></a></span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></blockquote></div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>_______________________________________________<br>If you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light and Particles General Discussion List at <a href="mailto:martin.van.der.mark@philips.com" target="_blank">martin.van.der.mark@philips.com</a><br><a href="<a href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/martin.van.der.mark%40philips.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1" target="_blank">http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/martin.van.der.mark%40philips.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1</a>"><br>Click here to unsubscribe<br></a></span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center;background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><hr size=2 width="100%" align=center></span></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:gray'>The information contained in this message may be confidential and legally protected under applicable law. 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