<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"><meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)"><!--[if !mso]><style>v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
</style><![endif]--><style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Helvetica;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
p
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;}
p.MsoAcetate, li.MsoAcetate, div.MsoAcetate
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Balloon Text Char";
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:8.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;}
span.BalloonTextChar
{mso-style-name:"Balloon Text Char";
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Balloon Text";
font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;}
p.yiv3335289798msoacetate, li.yiv3335289798msoacetate, div.yiv3335289798msoacetate
{mso-style-name:yiv3335289798msoacetate;
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;}
p.yiv3335289798msonormal, li.yiv3335289798msonormal, div.yiv3335289798msonormal
{mso-style-name:yiv3335289798msonormal;
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;}
p.yiv3335289798msochpdefault, li.yiv3335289798msochpdefault, div.yiv3335289798msochpdefault
{mso-style-name:yiv3335289798msochpdefault;
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;}
p.yiv3335289798msonormal1, li.yiv3335289798msonormal1, div.yiv3335289798msonormal1
{mso-style-name:yiv3335289798msonormal1;
mso-style-priority:99;
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;}
p.yiv3335289798msoacetate1, li.yiv3335289798msoacetate1, div.yiv3335289798msoacetate1
{mso-style-name:yiv3335289798msoacetate1;
mso-style-priority:99;
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:8.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;}
p.yiv3335289798msochpdefault1, li.yiv3335289798msochpdefault1, div.yiv3335289798msochpdefault1
{mso-style-name:yiv3335289798msochpdefault1;
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;}
span.yiv3335289798msohyperlink
{mso-style-name:yiv3335289798msohyperlink;}
span.yiv3335289798msohyperlinkfollowed
{mso-style-name:yiv3335289798msohyperlinkfollowed;}
span.yiv3335289798balloontextchar
{mso-style-name:yiv3335289798balloontextchar;}
span.yiv3335289798emailstyle20
{mso-style-name:yiv3335289798emailstyle20;}
span.yiv3335289798emailstyle21
{mso-style-name:yiv3335289798emailstyle21;}
span.yiv3335289798emailstyle22
{mso-style-name:yiv3335289798emailstyle22;}
span.yiv3335289798msohyperlink1
{mso-style-name:yiv3335289798msohyperlink1;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
span.yiv3335289798msohyperlinkfollowed1
{mso-style-name:yiv3335289798msohyperlinkfollowed1;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
span.yiv3335289798balloontextchar1
{mso-style-name:yiv3335289798balloontextchar1;
font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;}
span.yiv3335289798emailstyle201
{mso-style-name:yiv3335289798emailstyle201;
color:black;}
span.yiv3335289798emailstyle211
{mso-style-name:yiv3335289798emailstyle211;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D;}
span.yiv3335289798emailstyle221
{mso-style-name:yiv3335289798emailstyle221;
color:black;}
span.EmailStyle38
{mso-style-type:personal;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D;}
span.EmailStyle39
{mso-style-type:personal;
color:black;}
span.EmailStyle40
{mso-style-type:personal;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D;}
span.EmailStyle41
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
color:black;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}
@page WordSection1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Hi Martin<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Thank you. And by the way, I have never intended to “shoot the messenger” in our discussions. I value your experience and perspective, but have an interest in more fully understanding, and not taking anything for granted, just because that is the current interpretation of experimental results. Please don’t be offended or take my comments about certain aspects of physics personally. I know you are offering your knowledge and experience to try to help, and that is also the intent of my questions and opinions.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Currently it seems to me that we are at a sort of “roadblock” in the development of physics, and I feel that is partly because we are not looking at part of the evidence correctly. There seem to be things we have overlooked or misinterpreted which are causing us to not be able to see further.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>I have, over the years, read, and continue to read, the piles of literature. But the piles of accepted literature have lead us to this roadblock. That is specifically why I ask these questions again. It seems that, if we take another look, using perhaps a different interpretation and perspective, we might find other explanations which do not lead to a dead end.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>I tend to agree with you that electromagnetic waves do not appear to be quantized in most circumstances, and in those circumstance where they seem quantized, there may be an explanation relating to the emitter and absorber which explains why they seem quantized.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Due to the existing literature, and our discussions regarding mass, I have generally avoided using the terms Bosons and Fermions, in order to try to more accurately describe the differences between the nature, quantization, and spin states (modes), of these different particles. But if we can avoid the confusion, it is much easier to use the terms boson and fermion.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Once again, thank you for your insight and knowledge. You are appreciated very much.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Chip<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> General [mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Mark, Martin van der<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, April 29, 2015 10:16 AM<br><b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Electron<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Dear Chip, <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Having spent most of my physics time in optics, still and ever since I was a student 1980 or so, I may be able to answer some of the questions.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>see my comments below in blue….<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=DE style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>Dr. Martin B. van der Mark</span><span lang=DE style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>Principal Scientist, Minimally Invasive Healthcare</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:navy'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>Philips Research Europe - Eindhoven</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>High Tech Campus, Building 34 (WB2.025)</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>Prof. Holstlaan 4</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>5656 AE Eindhoven, The Netherlands</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>Tel: +31 40 2747548</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'> General [</span><a href="mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Chip Akins<br><b>Sent:</b> woensdag 29 april 2015 15:12<br><b>To:</b> 'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Electron<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Hi All<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Martin and John W have asked an interesting question. What is quantized?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>I have been doing electrical engineering work for about 40 years, and it is obvious that all EM fields do not exhibit spin properties. In radio, cell phones, RF signals, we have to carefully design the antenna if we want spin (circular polarization). It is possible that horizontal or vertical signals have equal quantities of right and left circular components that we cannot detect independently, but this seems unlikely. For if those components were present we would be able to receive the plane polarized signal with about half power using a circularly polarized antenna, and we would be able to pass a plane polarized photon through a plane polarizer and then a circular polarizer and have light at half power as a result. But neither of these conditions seem to be met when we observe the nature of EM waves.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Well, what you describe is what actually happens! Half the power will come through.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>This seems to indicate that the particles which emit photons produce the spin? <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Only certain quantities of energy can be emitted and absorbed by discrete energy in a resonant system, and only at certain frequencies.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Does this indicate that photons are quantized only by the nature of the emitter and absorber? Are photons, and fields, quantized? Or are fields only quantized when confined in a particle?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>This is indeed what it is all about.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>I can give one important answer, and I believe each of us will have to agree:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>“The photon is that thing that represents/characterizes precisely all that is exchanged in an electromagnetic interaction”<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><i><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>All please comment to help to make this statement as powerful and true as possible!<o:p></o:p></span></i></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>What the statement does not say is whether the electromagnetic field is quantized or not, the interaction is, that is all we can say. This may be the result of the nature of the emitter and absorber or of the electromagnetic fields, or both.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>My position is that the EM-fields are not quantized and that the quantized interaction is due to the emitter and absorber. This implies that all emitters (and all absorber) must have some universal structure at a deep level that makes that photons always look the way they do. That this can be true is not obvious. Hence it looks easier to attribute quantization to the field. However, this has not lead to much better understanding of what is going on and that is why , after a century, we (luckily) can have a conference about it!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>As an aside: What is the best, and most economical way to refer to the difference between photons (light speed particles) and spin ½ particles which are at rest when stationary? <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Bosons and fermions?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Are photons particles or do they just appear to be particles in their interaction with the absorbing particles? </span><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>I say the latter.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>If we emit a very low level, continuous stream of EM radiation at a double slit experiment, wouldn’t the target only show signs of that radiation one particle at a time? </span><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>If you make a Fock state (number state) of one particle, yes. It is not good enough to just dim the light (see piles of experiments and literature)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>As a particular particle (electron) absorbed enough energy to become dislodged, wouldn’t it produce the speckles we see in such experiments? Wouldn’t we have to have a frequency high enough to meet the absorbers resonant conditions for becoming dislodged before any electrons would be freed? So exactly why is it then that we feel that double slit experiments prove that light is quantized?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>They do not prove that, the douible slit experiment shows that em-radiation is a wave.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>The clicks in a detector, given a fock state, or in a photon correlation experiment show that the interaction is quantized. (I cannot give the full answer, it is too long, go read the liereature)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>It is easy to understand that light emitted from discrete energy resonant systems (particles) will have a specific energy content and a specific frequency, and therefore appear quantized. It is also easy to see that these particles, as absorbers, will only accept energy of specific quantities and frequency content. But does that describe the nature of light itself or just the nature of the emitter and absorber?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>One really, really cannot tell just like that, but I go for the latter. Why? Circumstantial evidence and all, all, all of my experience. It means nothing for proving the fact, but is of greatest importance to drive science into one direction, fail or win.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>I have been able to get far enough into Bell’s theorem, and the effect that two non-commuting rotations have on that theorem, to feel that a simple set of local variables (rotations) can account for effects which we have thought to be “entanglement”. It seems that entanglement may be an illusion we have had due to our lack of understanding of the processes at work.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Entanglement of particles is real. Experimentally proven. It also has a sound theoretical foundation. This is how quantum mechanics works. However, that does not mean that we understand why it works that way in all respects. Also it does not mean that quantum mechanics is totally complete or correct about some other things. But quantum mechanics is correct about this one!!! And it is the most puzzling thing there is.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>And one warning, just in case, I am just the messenger here, so do not try to shoot me again, please.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>So again the question. Are photons just EM waves which appear to be quantized due to the emitters and absorbers, or are photons themselves, due to their own forces and fields, quantized?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>This question can be answered using the statement I made earlier:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>“The photon is that thing that represents/characterizes precisely all that is exchanged in an electromagnetic interaction”<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>The better question is:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>“Are electromagnetic waves quantized by their own nature, or is this the result of the nature of the emitter and absorber”<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Chip, thanks for helping me utter this. I believe it is most relevant and very useful for the conference.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Cheers, Martin<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Chip<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> General [</span><a href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Mark, Martin van der<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 28, 2015 5:34 PM<br><b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Electron<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>John, i like that remark!<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>By the way i still must come back to the gravitational field and rest mass, proper mass, invariant mass or intrinsic mass confusion we talked about earlier. I was at one point talking at crossed purpose with you, i have realized, when you were talking about a conservative gravitational field (such as truely exists in an accelerating rocket) and i was not paying proper attention. What i should have said is that one can only measure the invariant mass by local comparison with a standard mass.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>So one must bring the standard mass (together with the balance) from ground floor to second floor if one wants to way the electron that happens to live just there. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Anyway, i apologize for the extra confusion,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Best, Martin<br><br>Verstuurd vanaf mijn iPhone<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>Op 28 apr. 2015 om 22:00 heeft John Duffield <<a href="mailto:johnduffield@btconnect.com">johnduffield@btconnect.com</a>> het volgende geschreven:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>David:</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Forgive me for interrupting, but IMHO the electron acts as flywheel that is rotating like a flywheel, and like a smoke ring. There are two orthogonal rotations. See the </span><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirac_spinor"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Dirac spinor</span></a><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> article on Wikipedia? See where it mentions bispinor? A bispinor is a spin half spinner. It has intrinsic spin like a tornado has intrinsic spin<i>. It makes it what it is</i>. Take the spin away from a tornado, and all you’ve got is wind. Take the spin away from an electron, and all you’ve got is light. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Regards</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>John D</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><img border=0 width=318 height=238 id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.jpg@01D08274.9B30ACA0" alt="cid:image001.jpg@01D08274.9B30ACA0"></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> General [</span><a href="mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>David Mathes<br><b>Sent:</b> 28 April 2015 20:44<br><b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Electron</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22551"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Chip</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22551"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22551"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Does the electron act as a flywheel?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22551"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22551"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>David</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white'><o:p> </o:p></p><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:3.75pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22555"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22554"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22553"><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center;background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><hr size=1 width="100%" align=center></span></div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'> Chip Akins <</span><a href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>chipakins@gmail.com</span></a><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>><br><b>To:</b> 'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion' <</span><a href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>> <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 28, 2015 12:36 PM<br><b id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22559">Subject:</b> Re: [General] Electron</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22564"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div id=yiv3335289798><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22563"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22562"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22561"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Hi Martin</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Yes, I had imagined that the spiral structure would hold with acceleration, perhaps slowing a bit in rotation, but the energy in the fields would presumably be concentrated more toward the center making the apparent frequency higher.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>The red and blue lines are mostly for my use, I can change the colors easily if that will help. What color convention seems best? </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>It seemed interesting how close to spherical the entire system becomes with rotation. After adding the magnetic fields it may appear even more spherical.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22566"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Hi David</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22567"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22569"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Thank you. I will begin labeling these. However the model is symmetrical so the direction of spin is equatorial, but ambiguous (either left or right) until the magnetic fields are added to the model. When adding the magnetic fields we choose a direction of spin which determines the magnetic poles, then of course, spin direction becomes definable in reference to those poles.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22570"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Chip</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22571"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22576"><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in' id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22575"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22574"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> General [</span><a href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Mark, Martin van der<br><b id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22577">Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 28, 2015 6:37 AM<br><b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br><b id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22579">Subject:</b> Re: [General] position</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22580"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Hi Chip, </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22582"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Thank you for this very nice modeling, it is very good food for imagining things.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430247734007_22584"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Just a loose remark, it doesn’t matter a bit, why make negative red and positive blue? It is the weirdest convention I’ve seen. Maybe you do this on purpose just to triggers and not take any convention for granted!</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Anyway, what I really like to say with respect to the modelling of the photon is that the spiral structure around the line of propagation seems to be fractal or infinite or whatever. It occurred to me that there must be Some kind of fixed spiral structure that will mimic a spatial shrink by a factor of gamma while it is only the field strength over that spiral that changes, reallyl If you have modeled just that, then I think it is utterly brilliant. It reminds me of a infinitely broadband spiral antenna!!!! Whatever, you have helped me to gain a very interesting insight, thank you.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>The electron animation looks cool to, but in my mind no immediate observation condenses to something useful yet.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Log spiral antennas:</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><a href="http://www.google.nl/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=images&cd=&ved=0CAcQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Ftolijojed.net%2Flog-spiral-antenna-pattern%2F&ei=7m8_VY2wNYe_PPXtgeAE&bvm=bv.91665533,d.d2s&psig=AFQjCNETagmdpl9_jVAhXKruvRJBCfqn8g&ust=1430307130240990" target="_blank"><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>http://www.google.nl/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=images&cd=&ved=0CAcQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Ftolijojed.net%2Flog-spiral-antenna-pattern%2F&ei=7m8_VY2wNYe_PPXtgeAE&bvm=bv.91665533,d.d2s&psig=AFQjCNETagmdpl9_jVAhXKruvRJBCfqn8g&ust=1430307130240990</span></a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><a href="http://www.google.nl/imgres?imgurl=http://www.ems.elektro.dtu.dk/~/media/Centre/EMS_Electromagnetic_Systems/english/research/research_projects/projects/spiral_antenna/spiral_antenna02.ashx%253Fla%253Dda&imgrefurl=http://www.ems.elektro.dtu.dk/research/research_projects/projects/spiral_antenna&h=141&w=294&tbnid=Ag91Xs0bJg6dRM:&zoom=1&docid=0Ucr7bBdv8H0NM&ei=uW8_VYq5KdHbaPe0gMgK&tbm=isch&ved=0CCQQMygFMAU" target="_blank"><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>http://www.google.nl/imgres?imgurl=http://www.ems.elektro.dtu.dk/~/media/Centre/EMS_Electromagnetic_Systems/english/research/research_projects/projects/spiral_antenna/spiral_antenna02.ashx%253Fla%253Dda&imgrefurl=http://www.ems.elektro.dtu.dk/research/research_projects/projects/spiral_antenna&h=141&w=294&tbnid=Ag91Xs0bJg6dRM:&zoom=1&docid=0Ucr7bBdv8H0NM&ei=uW8_VYq5KdHbaPe0gMgK&tbm=isch&ved=0CCQQMygFMAU</span></a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><a href="http://www.google.nl/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=images&cd=&ved=0CAcQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsuperkuh.com%2Fspiralantenna.html&ei=D3A_VYSXNsrZPdmOgbgL&bvm=bv.91665533,d.d2s&psig=AFQjCNETagmdpl9_jVAhXKruvRJBCfqn8g&ust=1430307130240990" target="_blank"><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>http://www.google.nl/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=images&cd=&ved=0CAcQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsuperkuh.com%2Fspiralantenna.html&ei=D3A_VYSXNsrZPdmOgbgL&bvm=bv.91665533,d.d2s&psig=AFQjCNETagmdpl9_jVAhXKruvRJBCfqn8g&ust=1430307130240990</span></a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Cheers, Martin</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=DE style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>Dr. Martin B. van der Mark</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>Principal Scientist, Minimally Invasive Healthcare</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>Philips Research Europe - Eindhoven</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>High Tech Campus, Building 34 (WB2.025)</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>Prof. Holstlaan 4</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>5656 AE Eindhoven, The Netherlands</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>Tel: +31 40 2747548</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black'> General [</span><a href="mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black'>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Chip Akins<br><b>Sent:</b> dinsdag 28 april 2015 1:45<br><b>To:</b> 'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] position</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Hi Martin, John W, Vivian and all</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Attached is a video of an envisioned set of field lines for an electron model.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Red lines are the more negative and blue the more positive ends of the field lines.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>There is a spiral shape to the field lines which assumes they have a fixed velocity. That aspect does not come through completely in the animation. It is also assumed that similar fields repel each other and that confinement places a limit on the repulsive effect. The confined photon, which comprises the electron model, is one Compton wavelength, and makes a double loop. Sorry, the animation does not yet rotate exactly around the center, still working on that one. It is also assumed that the electron will have an additional “tumble” which is not yet modeled. The electric field is depicted but the magnetic field is not yet in the animation.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Watching the video, it seems you, Martin, are correct in that this type of model may display ½ integral spin from any direction.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>The intent is to attempt to go as deeply into the modeling as reasonably possible, to see if we can learn more of the details. This seems to be required in order to reach the goal of modeling interactions more accurately.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>The color of the lines fades to white as the field strength drops off. (Of course the fields keep going, but become weaker with distance from the transport radius.)</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Thoughts, suggestions, and criticism are welcomed.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Chip</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> General [</span><a href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Mark, Martin van der<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, April 27, 2015 3:01 PM<br><b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] position</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Dear Andrew,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>It is a monumental task to keep track of everything, i have the same problem, but perhaps there are even more things that nobody seems to have mentioned, but can still also be found in a paper published in Annales de la fondation Louis de Broglie in 1997. ;-)</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Every fundamental particle must effectively be a single-mode cavity both containing and resulting from its own energy. It is three dimensional by diffraction of the almost infinite wavetrain that is biting its own tail in a single wavelength (mono mode) cavity. Well, actually, two polarization modes are allowed, giving rise to two spin states of the object. It is plausible, but remains to be proven rigorously, that a double loop gives the right equipartition of spin1/2 , simultaneous in all directions if the basic circulation is spin 1. The latter is what john and i put in: the photon, hence the title: Is the electron a photon with toroidal topology?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Cheers, Martin<br><br>Verstuurd vanaf mijn iPhone</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><br>Op 27 apr. 2015 om 21:00 heeft Andrew Meulenberg <</span><a href="mailto:mules333@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>mules333@gmail.com</span></a><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>> het volgende geschreven:</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><div><div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Dear Richard,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Something that no one seems to have mentioned/noticed is that the bound photon, as a stationary electron, should have a spherical rather than a circular path. Only in this manner can it have angular momentum in all and any directions. Also, when moving, even slowly, relativistic effects will 'flatten' the sphere in the direction of motion. This flattening will raise the energy, increase the inertia, and introduce the <b>E</b>-field distortions called magnetic field, <b>B</b>.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>The path distortion from the spherical with motion gives a helical path for some portion of the photon length. The path is much more complicated for elements of the path that are not normal to the direction of motion. The photon itself may be a standing wave moving at c. If so, elements of the wave move faster than c and later move slower than c. In the electron, the same thing may happen. Only the average velocity is limited to c. Since the photon is a wave, the phase velocity can greatly exceed c, before the electron velocity becomes relativistic.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Andrew<br>__________________________________</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 7:02 PM, Richard Gauthier <</span><a href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>richgauthier@gmail.com</span></a><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>> wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Andrew and all,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> Here’s a design challenge: design a single or double-looped circulating charged photon (either of spin 1 or spin 1/2) that models an electron and whose electric field satisfies Gauss’ law and generates the electron’s charge -e from its electric field, while its magnetic field generates the electron’s magnetic moment (or at least the Bohr magneton ehbar/2m). The charged photon should travel at light speed and obey the relations E=hf and p=h/lambda. It should move in a circular path when the electron is at rest and in a helical path when the electron moves at non-relativistic or relativistic velocities, and should continue to generate the charge -e from Gauss’ law while the electron is in motion. Indicate what modification(s) if any of Maxwell’s equations are necessary to do this (they should be as few as possible, if any).</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> Richard</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>On Apr 26, 2015, at 9:04 AM, Andrew Meulenberg <</span><a href="mailto:mules333@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>mules333@gmail.com</span></a><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>> wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> Dear All,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><br>Bob has addressed a point that should be too obvious to need consideration. However, for many years, I ignored it and it appears that most of us still do so. Conservation of charge. While it is possible to posit and describe the electron in terms of a photon, recognition of the requirement for charge conservation and the positive and negative (but net neutral) nature of all photons must be accepted as a 'given'.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>It is for this reason that I have proposed the 4-D structure of the electron/positron pair. It explains so much and leads beyond the electron-only structure. I believe that this has to be a fundamental position for all of us - to be accepted, explained, and/or modeled in various ways. If not, then I fear that, as John W says, we will be unable "... to convince people we are not crazies..."</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>The point is that while the 'twist' can explain the net charge of an electron, it presents the problem of what happens to the opposite field lines. They cannot be confined inside a 3-D container (topologically impossible w/o a charge source). My field-rectification and wormhole conjecture may not be the answer; but, it does address the problem. The field lines, as the gradient of a potential, presents a picture that Bob and I will be proposing for the dynamic potentials of standing waves within an interference pattern.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>The question is, "since there is no original potential within the space that becomes an electron, how does it get there?" Actually, to create an electron/positron pair, a strong electrical-potential gradient (such as a nucleus) must exist. However, after the lepton pair is formed, the nucleus structure is left behind and remains unaffected. The potential(s) formed are balanced and become the lepton masses. They are separated in space by the nuclear potential gradient. Are they also separated and combined in 'time'? If so, how and by what. The energy density of the 'internal' field lines being compressed, by the photon 'curling' as it passes the nucleus, will distort space (into time) and help create the wormhole joining the field structures that will become the lepton pair.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>This distortion is the electric potential created in the formation process. The womhole is the vortex that gives the pair stability (and perhaps their ultimate independence).</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>If anyone can come up with other (perhaps better) models, or reasons why such might not be required, please bring them forth.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Andrew<br>____________________________________</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>On Sun, Apr 26, 2015 at 8:17 AM, robert hudgins <</span><a href="mailto:hudginswr@msn.com" target="_blank"><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>hudginswr@msn.com</span></a><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>> wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><blockquote style='margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Dear Friends of Light, <br>Pardon my intrusion on your discussion. I have been warned that I will be excluded unless I actively participate. <br><br>Chip's diagram's are beautiful! His skill is enviable. However, it provokes questions. Why spin h and not 1/2? Are colors charge related? <br><br>The photon may be a useful abstraction for expressing the way light energy is packaged, rather than a stable, traceable entity. After the photon energy has been assembled it may travel as a loosely entangled assembly of EM waves that may follow unpredictable paths-- until they are condensed and captured by a resonator. Though the electron is clearly more discreet, it might also travel as an assembly of waves that pass through both openings of a double slit while engaging in constructive or destructive interference. <br>I am having conceptual difficulty imagining a topological twist that totally conceals only the positive charge of a photon. <br><br>Is an EM wave having only negative polarity a plausible construct? Are electrons without a positive partners being created with any frequency today?<br><br>Thanks for your patience,<br>Bob</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center;background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><hr size=2 width="100%" align=center></span></div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>From: </span><a href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>chipakins@gmail.com</span></a><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><br>To: </span><a href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank"><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><br>Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2015 17:59:56 -0500<br>Subject: Re: [General] Einstein Philosophy by Dyson</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Hi All</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Just finished computing a possible field topology for a photon with spin h.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Viewed from the longitudinal axis:</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><image001.jpg></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>And the side…</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><image004.png></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Chip</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> General [mailto:</span><a href="mailto:general-bounces%2Bchipakins" target="_blank"><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>general-bounces+chipakins</span></a><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>=</span><a href="mailto:gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank"><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Mark, Martin van der<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, April 25, 2015 6:47 AM<br><b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Einstein Philosophy by Dyson</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Dear Chandra,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>I agree. I think that Einstein was even more right than he realized himself, but the future must show us.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Bohr did a great job on finding the structure of the atom and introduced a revoltionary way of thinking to hold up the postulates required. That way of thinking, however, is merely a scafolding, and it should be removed to see the truth and beauty lying hidden behind it.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Copenhagen interpretation is now no more than a dogma that hampers progress!</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Cheers, Martin</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><blockquote style='margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Op 25 apr. 2015 om 01:32 heeft chandra <</span><a href="mailto:chandra@phys.uconn.edu" target="_blank"><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>chandra@phys.uconn.edu</span></a><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>> het volgende geschreven:</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Friends: </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>For a brief moment, allow me to change the subject. Freeman Dyson is an excellent writer. In the last part of his “Book Review” article (attached), Dyson beautifully summarizes the three philosophical positions of Einstein (Classical), Bohr (Duality) and the current generation (Quantum-Only). To save time and to get to the philosophy segment, jump to the bottom of the picture showing Bohr and Einstein goofing and relaxing!</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>My philosophical position is more in line with Einstein; while acknowledging that the one of the three key reasons behind the emergence of quantum uncertainty is “because the processes in the second layer are unobservable” (Dyson). This is why I have proposed, with demonstrated experiments in my book (“Causal Physics”), that when we start framing our enquiring postulates to imagine and visualize the invisible interaction processes, the nature start to become a lot more transparent even within the current QM formalisms. Further, this philosophy of Interaction Process Mapping Epistemology (IPME) shows that current QM, in spite of its great successes, a next generation formalism with deeper levels of enquiry has to be developed by the next generation. In other words, I am suggesting that our Knowledge Gatekeepers should change their blind devotion to currently successful theories and encourage the next generation to come up with various serious but radically different possible approaches. Our conference platform is one such example.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>If we do not deliberately frame our enquiring questions to visualize the invisible aspects of nature’s interaction processes; we will forever remain in the darkness of duality. Duality represents ignorance; it does not represent new or better knowledge. We have to go beyond Bohr.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Chandra.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><a name="14cfb147c7bcb94f_14cf64a3c4683655_14cf39"><span class=MsoHyperlink><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span></span></a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> General [</span><a href="mailto:general-bounces+chandra=phys.uconn.edu@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank"><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>mailto:general-bounces+chandra=phys.uconn.edu@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>John Williamson<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, April 24, 2015 9:46 AM<br><b>To:</b> David Mathes; Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br><b>Cc:</b> Manohar .; Nick Bailey; Anthony Booth; Ariane Mandray<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Articles of interest</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Dear David and everyone,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Sounds as though MIT does a bit of a better job of promoting itself than I do (what a surprise!).</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>There is nothing much new in looking at single electrons. SLAC was doing this for years in HEP with its linear accelerator. For that matter Millikan was sensitive to single electrons with his oil-drop experiment – and the school I went to was enlightened enough to let me do this experiment myself at the age of sixteen or so. What is marvelous is that they can make it sound as though detecting one electron something sexy! Robert Hadfield (in our group) is in the business of detecting single photons and John Weaver (in our group) has huge capability to look at individual electrons with some of his work as well. This stuff is widely published!</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>More important than looking at detecting single electrons (easy enough!) is looking at the underlying sub-electron structure. Back in the late 1980’s and early 1990’s I was in the business of looking at just that. I designed a single electron electrometer sensitive at down to about a thousandth of the electron charge. If you look at my Google scholar page you can find several papers related to this. The device could also be used as a single electron pump, to deliver a stream of electrons phase locked to the frequency of a varying gate potential. My paper (see attached), looking at the electron sub-structure delivered electrons one-at-a-time and probe the profile of the individual electron wave-function with a resolution of better than a tenth of its de Broglie wavelength. This experimental work did not stop when I left the field of course. Leo Kouwenhoven, in particular, spent many years investigating my single-electron electrometer device (and creating new ones) in the last quarter of a century. There is now a very great deal of experimental information about the inner structure of matter, electrons (and photons) with which to work. </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>What was lacking then, and is still not widely accepted now, is a proper theoretical framework within which to interpret this inner structure. This is what we have to do. Firstly develop the theoretical framework and secondly get the message out. </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>We have to convince people we are not crazies and that this is serious, new science. That is what will be hard. Any communications of this to the outside world needs to get rid of the speculative , ill informed, or just plain wrong stuff that is perfectly ok within the context of an online discussion or over a pint or two, but not ok at all if we wish to make a serious attempt at convincing the outside world. </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Regards, John.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>_______________________________________________<br>If you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light and Particles General Discussion List at </span><a href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>richgauthier@gmail.com</span></a><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><br><a href="</span><a href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/richgauthier%40gmail.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1" target="_blank"><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/richgauthier%40gmail.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1</span></a><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>"><br>Click here to unsubscribe<br></a></span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote></div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><br>_______________________________________________<br>If you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light and Particles General Discussion List at </span><a href="mailto:mules333@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>mules333@gmail.com</span></a><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><br><a href="</span><a href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/mules333%40gmail.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1" target="_blank"><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/mules333%40gmail.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1</span></a><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>"><br>Click here to unsubscribe<br></a></span><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote></div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>_______________________________________________<br>If you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light and Particles General Discussion List at </span><a href="mailto:martin.van.der.mark@philips.com" target="_blank"><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>martin.van.der.mark@philips.com</span></a><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><br><a href="</span><a href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/martin.van.der.mark%40philips.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1" target="_blank"><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/martin.van.der.mark%40philips.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1</span></a><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>"><br>Click here to unsubscribe<br></a></span><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center;background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><hr size=2 width="100%" align=center></span></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:gray'>The information contained in this message may be confidential and legally protected under applicable law. The message is intended solely for the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, forwarding, dissemination, or reproduction of this message is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by return e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><br>_______________________________________________<br>If you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light and Particles General Discussion List at </span><a href="mailto:davidmathes8@yahoo.com"><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>davidmathes8@yahoo.com</span></a><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><br><a href="</span><a href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/davidmathes8%40yahoo.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1" target="_blank"><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/davidmathes8%40yahoo.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1</span></a><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>"><br>Click here to unsubscribe<br></a></span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<br>If you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light and Particles General Discussion List at <a href="mailto:martin.van.der.mark@philips.com">martin.van.der.mark@philips.com</a><br><a href="<a href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/martin.van.der.mark%40philips.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1">http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/martin.van.der.mark%40philips.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1</a>"><br>Click here to unsubscribe<br></a><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote></div></body></html>