<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><div><span>John M</span></div><div><span><br></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_10820"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_10821">I'll use red. See below. </span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_10820"><span><br></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_10820"><span>David</span></div><br> <blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; margin-top: 5px; padding-left: 5px;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_10807"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_10806"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_10805"> <div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_10819"> <hr size="1" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_11475"> <font size="2" face="Arial" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_10818"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> John Macken <john@macken.com><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> 'David Mathes' <davidmathes8@yahoo.com>; 'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion' <general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org> <br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Monday, May 4, 2015 3:13 PM<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [General] Energy Density of Spacetime<br> </font> </div> <div class="y_msg_container" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_10804"><br><div id="yiv0690737399"><style>#yiv0690737399 #yiv0690737399 --
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#yiv0690737399 </style><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_10803"><div class="yiv0690737399WordSection1" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_10802"><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_10801"><span style="color:blue;">David,</span></div><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_10808"><span style="color:blue;"> </span></div><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_10816"><span style="color:blue;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_10817">I will attempt to answer the first of your comments. You said that my 5 page analysis of the energy density of spacetime “</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">carefully avoids discussion of the Mach theory.</span><span style="color:blue;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_10815">” I presume that you are talking about what I known as the Mach principle. Briefly stated, the Mach principle says” “mass there influences inertia here”. I did not carefully avoid this. In fact, I think that the Mach principle is a completely bogus idea that is not needed to explain inertia. </span></div><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_10814"><span style="color:blue;"> </span></div><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_10814"><font color="#9d1811" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_11349">Mach's principle is what I was referencing a bit loosely. </font></div><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_10814"><span style="color:blue;"><br></span></div><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_10810"><span style="color:blue;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_10809">Two of the 8 similarities between confined photons and fundamental particles is that confined photons (photons in a reflecting box or photons “confined” in an electron model) exhibit both <b id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_11403">inertia when the box is accelerating</b> and <b id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_14611">kinetic energy when the box is moving at a constant speed relative to an observer</b>. In my book I show that this connection is perfect. </span></div><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_10810"><span style="color:blue;"><br></span></div><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_10810" dir="ltr"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_11945" class="" style=""><font color="#9d1811" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_13059" class="" style="">I'll read your book again as the other six similarities are also of interest. </font></span><span style="color:blue;"><br></span></div><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_10810" dir="ltr"><span style="color: blue;" class=""><br></span></div><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_10810"><span style="color:blue;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_13057">For example, <b id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_12969">confined photons even exhibit relativistic effects when the box is moving at relativistic speed</b>. The Higgs field is usually credited with giving inertia to fundamental particles. However, I claim that the Higgs mechanism does not specify how it gives exactly the correct amount of inertia to fundamental particles. </span></div><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_10811"><span style="color:blue;"> </span></div><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_10811" dir="ltr"><font color="#9d1811" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_13212">Based on Mach's principle (Barbour 1982) and General Relativity Theory, Mach effects (Woodward 2000, Fearn 2014) are considered to be a relativistic effect by some folks. However, since you have stipulated the bogusness of Mach principle, this is just a note and we will move on.</font></div><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_10811" dir="ltr"><font color="#9d1811"><br></font></div><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_10811" dir="ltr"><font color="#9d1811" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_13754">For me, the Higgs particle is problematic. While there may be evidence for the field, the information is minimal at this point.</font></div><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_10811"><span style="color:blue;"><br></span></div><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_10813"><span style="color:blue;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_10812">Here is the problem. It is possible to calculate the difference in photon pressure between the “front” and “rear” internal mirror surfaces when the box is accelerated. It is not necessary to invoke either the Mach principle or the Higgs mechanism to show that the difference in photon pressure produces a net force which exactly matches the inertial force that would be exerted by particles of equal energy. I is necessary for a given amount of energy to exert the same inertia whether it is in the form of particles of confined photons. If there was not equal inertia, then this would be a violation of the conservation of momentum. Therefore it is no surprise that there is a perfect match. </span><span style="color: blue;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_11068">However, with the Higgs mechanism there is no conceptually understandable perfect connection between energy in the form of confined photons and the same energy in the form of particles. The only connection that I have seen is </span><i id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_10921" style="color: blue;">E</i><span style="color: blue;"> = </span><i style="color: blue;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_11398">mc<sup id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_11397">2</sup></i><span style="color: blue;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_11121">. However, this is one of many “laws” which needs to be explained by any theory which attempts to go beyond current physics.</span></div><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_10860"><span style="color:blue;"> </span></div><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_10860" dir="ltr"><font color="#9d1811" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_13974" class="" style="">There has been some research that If the box is accelerated, and in addition, </font><span style="color: rgb(157, 24, 17);" class="">relative to the box frame of reference, </span><span style="color: rgb(157, 24, 17);" class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_14617">the particle in the box is accelerated , then a transient mass condition will develop. </span></div><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_10860" dir="ltr"><span style="color: rgb(157, 24, 17);" class=""><br></span></div><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_10860" dir="ltr"><span style="color: rgb(157, 24, 17);" class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_14332">So frame dragging might be a useful test for any electron model.</span></div><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_10860"><span style="color:blue;"><br></span></div><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_10868"><span style="color:blue;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_10867">I could go on, but the bottom line is that when particles are made of either dipole waves in spacetime or photons (single or double loop) then the particles exhibit exactly the correct amount of inertia without requiring any contribution from either the Mach principle or the Higgs mechanism. Therefore, I did not “carefully avoid discussion of the Mach theory”. In my opinion, the Mach principle is simply is a wrong hypothesis. </span></div><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_11077"><span style="color:blue;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_14674"> </span></div><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_11076"><span style="color:blue;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_11075">I thought that this would be a brief answer. If you or anyone else can select one question at a time, I will attempt to answer the carefully selected questions in future posts. I think that I have answers for almost all the questions. I like to be challenged.</span></div><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_11076"><span style="color:blue;"><br></span></div><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_11076"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_11597"><font color="#9d1811" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_11622">John, as always you answers are carefully thought out. </font></span></div><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_11074"><span style="color:blue;"> </span></div><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_11073"><span style="color:blue;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_11598">John M. </span></div><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_11072"><span style="color:blue;"> </span></div><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_11071"><span style="color:blue;"> </span></div><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_11070"><span style="color:blue;"> </span></div><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_11069"><span style="color:blue;"> </span></div><div class="qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div class="yiv0690737399yqt4736831602" id="yiv0690737399yqt88691"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_11080"><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_11079"><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_11078"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_11086"> General [mailto:general-bounces+john=macken.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>David Mathes<br clear="none"><b>Sent:</b> Monday, May 04, 2015 12:48 PM<br clear="none"><b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br clear="none"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Energy Density of Spacetime</span></div></div></div><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_11081"> </div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_11083"><div id="yiv0690737399yui_3_16_0_1_1430767222079_3470"><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" style="background:white;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_11087"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">John</span></div></div><div id="yiv0690737399yui_3_16_0_1_1430767222079_3470"><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" style="background:white;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_11085"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;"> </span></div></div><div id="yiv0690737399yui_3_16_0_1_1430767222079_3470"><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" style="background:white;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_11084"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_14388">Castles in the air are just another name for a spaceship...</span></div></div><div id="yiv0690737399yui_3_16_0_1_1430767222079_3470"><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" style="background:white;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_11082"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;"> </span></div></div><div id="yiv0690737399yui_3_16_0_1_1430767222079_3470"><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" style="background:white;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_11138"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_11137">In reading the 5 page write up, I'm still a bit skeptical. The theory carefully avoids discussion of Mach theory. However, the derivation of impedance is good with c and G accounted for, but h is not. So while this theory is useful, it's more of a relativistic argument only and not fully embracing QM, and therefore not quantum gravity. Even if cGh were all accounted for, the presumption is that the current values are the maximum. However, this leads to the more daunting challenge of increasing or varying any one of those values. </span></div></div><div id="yiv0690737399yui_3_16_0_1_1430767222079_3470"><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" style="background:white;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_11136"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;"> </span></div></div><div id="yiv0690737399yui_3_16_0_1_1430767222079_3470"><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" style="background:white;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_11135"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_11134">What are the 17 different fields? I assume you are referring to the set of 16 standard model particles plus Higgs? What if there is just one more field?</span></div></div><div id="yiv0690737399yui_3_16_0_1_1430767222079_3470"><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" style="background:white;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_11133"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;"> </span></div></div><div id="yiv0690737399yui_3_16_0_1_1430767222079_3470"><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" style="background:white;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_11132"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_11131">Can the spacetime energy density vary? Is a negative vacuum permitted?</span></div></div><div id="yiv0690737399yui_3_16_0_1_1430767222079_4490"><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" style="background:white;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_11130"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;"> </span></div></div><div id="yiv0690737399yui_3_16_0_1_1430767222079_4490"><div id="yiv0690737399yui_3_16_0_1_1430767222079_3470"><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" style="background:white;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_11123"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_11122">Does it vary linearly? Is it subject to the Schwinger limit where results go from linear to non-linear?</span></div></div><div id="yiv0690737399yui_3_16_0_1_1430767222079_4496"><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" style="background:white;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_11124"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;"> </span></div></div></div><div id="yiv0690737399yui_3_16_0_1_1430767222079_3470"><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" style="background:white;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_11126"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">Given your conclusion that </span><span style="font-size:8.5pt;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_11125">waves of any kind that propagate in the medium with impedance Z</span><span style="font-size:5.5pt;">s</span><span style="font-size:8.5pt;"> = c</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt;">^3</span><span style="font-size:8.5pt;">/G and strain amplitude A</span><span style="font-size:5.5pt;">s =</span><span style="font-size:8.5pt;"> L</span><span style="font-size:5.5pt;">p</span><span style="font-size:8.5pt;">/(2pi λ) will propagate at c, the speed of light, are you assuming a fixed numeric value for c? </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;"></span></div></div><div id="yiv0690737399yui_3_16_0_1_1430767222079_3470"><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" style="background:white;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_11129"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;"> </span></div></div><div id="yiv0690737399yui_3_16_0_1_1430767222079_3470"><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" style="background:white;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_11127"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;"> </span></div></div><div id="yiv0690737399yui_3_16_0_1_1430767222079_3470"><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" style="background:white;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430779902671_11128"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;"> </span></div></div><div id="yiv0690737399yui_3_16_0_1_1430767222079_3470"><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">David</span></div></div><div id="yiv0690737399yui_3_16_0_1_1430767222079_3470"><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;"> </span></div></div><div id="yiv0690737399yui_3_16_0_1_1430767222079_3470"><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;"> </span></div></div><div id="yiv0690737399yui_3_16_0_1_1430767222079_3470"><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;"> </span></div></div><div id="yiv0690737399yui_3_16_0_1_1430767222079_3470"><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;"> </span></div></div><div id="yiv0690737399yui_3_16_0_1_1430767222079_3470"><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;"> </span></div></div><div id="yiv0690737399yui_3_16_0_1_1430767222079_3470"><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;"> </span></div></div><blockquote id="yiv0690737399yui_3_16_0_1_1430767222079_3558" style="border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:3.75pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;"><div id="yiv0690737399yui_3_16_0_1_1430767222079_3557"><div id="yiv0690737399yui_3_16_0_1_1430767222079_3556"><div id="yiv0690737399yui_3_16_0_1_1430767222079_3555"><div align="center" class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" style="text-align:center;background:white;"><span style=""></span><hr align="center" size="1" width="100%"></div><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;"> John Macken <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:john@macken.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:john@macken.com">john@macken.com</a>><br clear="none"><b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>> <br clear="none"><b>Sent:</b> Monday, May 4, 2015 12:12 PM<br clear="none"><b>Subject:</b> [General] Energy Density of Spacetime</span><span style=""></span></div></div><div id="yiv0690737399yui_3_16_0_1_1430767222079_3559"><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div><div id="yiv0690737399"><div id="yiv0690737399yui_3_16_0_1_1430767222079_3562"><div id="yiv0690737399yui_3_16_0_1_1430767222079_3561"><div id="yiv0690737399yui_3_16_0_1_1430767222079_3560"><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:black;">Hello Everyone,</span><span style=""></span></div></div><div id="yiv0690737399yui_3_16_0_1_1430767222079_3598"><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:black;"> </span><span style=""></span></div></div><div id="yiv0690737399yui_3_16_0_1_1430767222079_3570"><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:black;">One of my major points has been that I think that your electron models are like castles in the sky that lack a solid foundation. I am attempting to give you this foundation so that you can explain your models as being constructed of something fundamental and quantifiable. </span><span style=""></span></div></div><div id="yiv0690737399yui_3_16_0_1_1430767222079_3571"><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:black;"> </span><span style=""></span></div></div><div id="yiv0690737399yui_3_16_0_1_1430767222079_3564"><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:black;">In an earlier post someone asked me a question to the effect of: Why does the proposed tremendous energy density of spacetime not collapse into a black hole? This simple question has taken me two weeks and 5 pages to answer. See the attached Word or PDF documents (they are the same). This has been a wonderful challenge because I expanded this into a challenge to see if I could prove that spacetime possesses energy density of about 10<sup>113</sup> J/m<sup>3</sup> without referencing any ideas from quantum mechanics. I have succeeded by using an equation from general relativity and an equation from acoustics. </span><span style=""></span></div></div><div id="yiv0690737399yui_3_16_0_1_1430767222079_3563"><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:black;"> </span><span style=""></span></div></div><div id="yiv0690737399yui_3_16_0_1_1430767222079_3573"><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:black;">The attached Word document is actually a revised part of my book that incorporates both the derivation of the energy density of spacetime and the answer to the question about black holes. My hope is that I can convince some of you that it is not necessary to talk in vague terms of “waves” or “fields”. These are merely giving names to something that needs to be specified more completely. The reader should ask: What exactly is the “wave” or “field” made of? I see your pictures that attempt to represent electrons. However, the pictures do not specify the fundamental material used to construct the electron. </span><span style=""></span></div></div><div id="yiv0690737399yui_3_16_0_1_1430767222079_3574"><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:black;"> </span><span style=""></span></div></div><div id="yiv0690737399yui_3_16_0_1_1430767222079_3576"><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:black;">The first step in elevating these electron models is to convince you that spacetime has quantifiable energy density that is compatible with your existing views about general relativity and cosmology. I hope that the either of the attached documents take a big step towards that goal. </span><span style=""></span></div></div><div><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:black;"> </span><span style=""></span></div></div><div id="yiv0690737399yui_3_16_0_1_1430767222079_3577"><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:black;">John M.</span><span style=""></span></div></div></div></div></div><div class="yiv0690737399MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white;"><span style=""><br clear="none">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">If you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light and Particles General Discussion List at <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:davidmathes8@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:davidmathes8@yahoo.com">davidmathes8@yahoo.com</a><br clear="none"><a href="<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" id="yiv0690737399yui_3_16_0_1_1430767222079_3578" target="_blank" href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/davidmathes8%40yahoo.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1">http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/davidmathes8%40yahoo.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1</a>"><br clear="none">Click here to unsubscribe<br clear="none"></a><br clear="none"><br clear="none"></span></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div><br><div class="yqt4736831602" id="yqt82398">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">If you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light and Particles General Discussion List at <a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:davidmathes8@yahoo.com" href="mailto:davidmathes8@yahoo.com">davidmathes8@yahoo.com</a><br clear="none"><a href="<a shape="rect" href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/davidmathes8%40yahoo.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1" target="_blank">http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/davidmathes8%40yahoo.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1</a>"><br clear="none">Click here to unsubscribe<br clear="none"></a><br clear="none"></div><br><br></div> </div> </div> </blockquote> </div></body></html>