<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1431448627883_13921"><span>Martin</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1431448627883_13920"><span><br></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1431448627883_13919"><span>Now I'm curious. </span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1431448627883_13918"><span><br></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1431448627883_13880"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1431448627883_14038">Assume the free electron is well balanced with a photon inside and that photon is charged.</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1431448627883_13880"><span><br></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1431448627883_13880"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1431448627883_14181">Then in orbit or other captured state, the structure of the electron may change from say circular polarization to elliptical polarization. Such an electron would expected to have phase changes induced on the charged photon within.</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1431448627883_13880"><span><br></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1431448627883_13880" dir="ltr"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1431448627883_14518">As to the charge being distributed over the whole atom, this sounds like the Arnowitt-Deser-Misner model (ADM) (circa 1961). Is that what you were referring to?</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1431448627883_13880" dir="ltr"><span><br></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1431448627883_13880" dir="ltr">So let's assume a simple H model. We have an electron, proton (3 Quarks plus) and a Neutron. Covalent radius varies by 20% or so while the van der Waals radius is accurately fixed. </div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1431448627883_13880" dir="ltr"><span><br></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1431448627883_13880" dir="ltr"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1431448627883_14673">The electron circles around the proton as if there are unseen charges between electron and proton. The electron does not orbit so there is some interaction going on beyond just a circular orbit. Instead, there appears to be a spherical shell that the electron travels within. </span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1431448627883_13880" dir="ltr"><span><br></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1431448627883_13880" dir="ltr"><span>So ADM theory suggests smaller charges circle the nucleus. The nature of these charges could simply be quarks with positive and negative charge which suggests gluons play a role. Perhaps some gluons have charge or at least can interact with charges in a different way.</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1431448627883_13880" dir="ltr"><span><br></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1431448627883_13880" dir="ltr"><span>One also has to ask if the electron and proton are interacting significantly with spacetime.</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1431448627883_13880" dir="ltr"><span><br></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1431448627883_13880" dir="ltr"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1431448627883_15213">This leads me to one other idea, that of the virtual charge in semiconductors. </span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1431448627883_13880" dir="ltr"><span><br></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1431448627883_13880" dir="ltr"><span>David</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1431448627883_13880" dir="ltr"><span><br></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1431448627883_13880" dir="ltr"><br></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1431448627883_13880" dir="ltr"><span><br></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1431448627883_13880"><span><br></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1431448627883_13880"><span><br></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1431448627883_13880"><span><br></span></div><br> <blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; margin-top: 5px; padding-left: 5px;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1431448627883_13861"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1431448627883_13860"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1431448627883_13859"> <div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1431448627883_13858"> <hr size="1" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1431448627883_13857"> <font size="2" face="Arial" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1431448627883_13862"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> "Mark, Martin van der" <martin.van.der.mark@philips.com><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion <general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org> <br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, May 12, 2015 12:31 AM<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [General] Quantisation of classical electromagnetism<br> </font> </div> <div class="y_msg_container" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1431448627883_13863"><br><div id="yiv9586882251"><style>#yiv9586882251 #yiv9586882251 --
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1431448627883_13864"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1431448627883_15214">Hi Richard,</span></div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1431448627883_13868"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1431448627883_13867">You raise an important question. I cannot answer it yet, as I will try to explain.</span></div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1431448627883_13870"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1431448627883_13869">The structure of an electron inside an atom or in the conduction band of a metal or semi-conductor is different from that of the free electron. It manages to
behave as it were much larger than the free electron, it can be measured that the charge is distributed over the whole atom or even the whole conductor.</span></div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1431448627883_15133"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1431448627883_15134">Does the electron really “disintegrate”? I do not believe so. But believing is quite different from knowing. What would have to happen is that the environment
makes up for the binding forces inside the electron. I think those forces are far too weak. Moreover, the speed of light would come in the way to keep coherence over larger distances than the size of the free electron (at the Compton wavelength scale)…</span></div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1431448627883_15136"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1431448627883_15135">A proper theory must solve this. For the moment I think that the electron hardly changes its structure inside an atom or conductor and that only the external
fiels have just the de Broglie wavelength that fits their imposed quantum state, as in the pilot wave picture.</span></div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1431448627883_15137"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1431448627883_15215">Cheers, Martin</span></div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span lang="DE" style="font-size:10.0pt;">Dr. Martin B. van der Mark</span><span lang="DE" style="color:navy;"></span></div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">Principal Scientist, Minimally Invasive Healthcare</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"></span></div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">Philips Research Europe - Eindhoven</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"></span></div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">High Tech Campus, Building 34 (WB2.025)</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"></span></div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">Prof. Holstlaan 4</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"></span></div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">5656 AE Eindhoven, The Netherlands</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"></span></div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">Tel: +31 40 2747548</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"></span></div>
</div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div>
<div class="qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div class="yiv9586882251yqt6173802983" id="yiv9586882251yqt87642"><div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm;">
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;"> General [mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Richard Gauthier<br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b> dinsdag 12 mei 2015 8:23<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Quantisation of classical electromagnetism</span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"> </div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal">Andrew and Martin,</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"> I think it would be a good challenge for anyone with a single-looped or double-looped photon model of an electron to model their electron in the 1s atomic state of hydrogen (where n=1, l=0, ml=0 and ms = + or - 1/2 hbar) where the electron
has zero hbar atomic angular momentum even though it has internal electron spin 1/2 hbar. I model the electron here as oscillating back and forth linearly through the center of the atom as a charged photon with a helical trajectory of variable pitch and radius,
with a total energy of E=mc^2 -13.6 eV and a maximum kinetic energy when the helically circulating charged photon passes the nucleus, generating a variable de Broglie wavelength along its trajectory (because its longitudinal momentum is changing as it oscillates
in the atom) and making one complete de Broglie path per oscillation. The most probable position of the charged photon (the electron) to be detected is at 1 Bohr radius ao (as predicted by QM for the hydrogen atom) because the charged photon obeys the Schrodinger
equation (in the non-relativistic approximation). If the 1s electron (charged photon) absorbs an uncharged photon of energy 13.6 eV, the hydrogen atom is ionized with the charged photon now having energy E=mc^2 .</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"> Richard</div>
</div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv9586882251yqt6173802983" id="yiv9586882251yqt29082"><div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"> </div>
<div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;">
<div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal">On May 11, 2015, at 1:30 PM, Mark, Martin van der <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:martin.van.der.mark@philips.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:martin.van.der.mark@philips.com">martin.van.der.mark@philips.com</a>> wrote:</div>
</div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"> </div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Dear Andrew, I have been away for a few days.</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">In your previous replies you tried to challenge me to be precise, and have questioned the correctness of my statements. That is very good.</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">But unfortunately you have put me in a position where I, in turn, have to correct you on all the things you say that are half baked or wrong. It is difficult
to remain very polite since most of your brown replies, need “attention”. So brace, but remember that I only put in the effort because I respect you and because I think that your opinion matters.</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">I hope no one is color blind, yet another color will be used: purple! (just in case some haze troubles the mind…)</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">So: purple (Martin) responds to<span class="yiv9586882251apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">brown
(Andrew) responds to<span class="yiv9586882251apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">green (Martin) responds to<span class="yiv9586882251apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">red
(Andrew)</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span lang="DE" style="font-size:10.0pt;">Dr. Martin B. van der Mark</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">Principal Scientist, Minimally Invasive Healthcare</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">Philips Research Europe - Eindhoven</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">High Tech Campus, Building 34 (WB2.025)</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">Prof. Holstlaan 4</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">5656 AE Eindhoven, The Netherlands</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">Tel: +31 40 2747548</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">From:</span></b><span class="yiv9586882251apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;"> </span></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">General
[<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><span style="color:purple;">mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a>]<b>On Behalf Of<span class="yiv9586882251apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Andrew
Meulenberg<br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b><span class="yiv9586882251apple-converted-space"> </span>donderdag 7 mei 2015 7:40<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b><span class="yiv9586882251apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b><span class="yiv9586882251apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Quantisation of classical electromagnetism</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;">Dear Martin,</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal">It is great communicating with someone who has also thought about the issue. My comments are sometimes too cryptic because I assume that you would have come to the same conclusions. Let me try (in brown) to identify some of the differences
below.</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal">On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 3:50 AM, Mark, Martin van der <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:martin.van.der.mark@philips.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:martin.van.der.mark@philips.com"><span style="color:purple;">martin.van.der.mark@philips.com</span></a>> wrote:</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="">Andrew, thanks, please see below, in green</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span lang="NL" style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span><span lang="DE" style="font-size:10.0pt;">Dr. Martin B. van der Mark</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">Principal Scientist, Minimally Invasive Healthcare</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></b></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">From:</span></b><span class="yiv9586882251apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;"> </span></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">General
[mailto:<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:general-bounces%2Bmartin.van.der.mark" target="_blank" href="mailto:general-bounces%2Bmartin.van.der.mark"><span style="color:purple;">general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark</span></a>=<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><span style="color:purple;">philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a>]<b>On
Behalf Of<span class="yiv9586882251apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Andrew Meulenberg<br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b><span class="yiv9586882251apple-converted-space"> </span>woensdag 6 mei 2015 19:46<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b><span class="yiv9586882251apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b><span class="yiv9586882251apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Quantisation of classical electromagnetism</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;"> <span style="color:red;">Dear John W, Martin, et al.,</span></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span style="color:red;">I don't think that a week together in San Diego would be enough to transfer the information that we all need to share. And, I will probably miss even that. I am already learning so much
and have so much to contribute that I feel frustrated that I have to divide my time.</span></div>
</div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span style="color:red;">Just this morning (my time), I changed my idea of the electron radius. After seeing it expressed many times by various members of this group as 1/2 the Compton radius (and considering
that to be wrong), it finally hit me, when reading it again, that, even within my own model,<span class="yiv9586882251apple-converted-space"> </span><u>I<span class="yiv9586882251apple-converted-space"> </span></u>had been wrong and this smaller radius is probably correct.</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;"> On Wed, May 6, 2015 at 3:28 PM, Mark, Martin van der <</span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:martin.van.der.mark@philips.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:martin.van.der.mark@philips.com"><span style="color:purple;">martin.van.der.mark@philips.com</span></a><span style="font-size:7.5pt;">>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;"> </span><span style="">Andrew, John, all</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style=""> John W is quite right as well, just a small remark on the hydrogen atom.</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="">By the virial theorem, for a 1/r potential, potential energy is minus two times the kinetic energy and kinetic energy is equal to the binding energy (13.6 eV in the ground state).</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="">For the structure of the atom there are three conditions, one of electromagnetic, and two of inertial nature.</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="">1) The coulomb potential runs to minus infinity, that is very deep. It comes from the charge of proton and electron.</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="">2) Then the centrifugal force (depends on mass of proton and electron) must balance the Coulomb force, this could have been in a continuum of orbits if the electron and proton
were just particles (without a wave nature) (see gravitation and solar system for an exact analogy),</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="">3) The mass of proton and electron set the scale of the de Broglie wavelength (which, incidentally, is exactly the same for proton and electron in the bound state), and hence
the bound state has a finite size, 0.1 nm diameter for the ground state. The particle’s waves must interfere constructively within the boundary conditions: quantized energy levels appear.</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Cheers, Martin</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"> <span style="color:red;">I also have three basic conditions:</span></div>
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<ul style="margin-top:0cm;" type="disc"><li class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal" style=""><span style="color:red;">The QM description of the mechanical resonance of a body confined in a potential well. The reason for this resonance is not the interference with the nucleus (which does not appear
in the fundamental equations). There is a simple physical and mathematical basis that is taught in 1st year calculus.</span></li><li class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal" style=""><span style="color:red;">The classical description of the orbiting electron creates an EM field that is evolving into a photon as the electron decays to a deeper level. The resonance between the electron
and emitted-photon frequencies, along with the virial theorem and conservation of energy and ang. mom., determine the allowed energy levels. The fact that these levels agree with the mechanical levels gives a double resonance.</span></li></ul>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">I do not really understand what you mean by the double resonance.</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="color:#B45F06;"> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">The levels identified with the classical description agree with those of the mechanical (QM) system.</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">To be precise: the mechanical part equals the mechanical part. No information in that at all, it is not a coincidence it is an incidence.</span></div>
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<ul style="margin-top:0cm;" type="disc"><li class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal" style=""><span style="color:red;">the ground state is established by the requirement of a photon to have an angular momentum of hbar.</span></li></ul>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Why is this fundamental? It depends on the system you are looking at. Circular orbits are a confusing thing o look at too, if you want to look at angular momentum.
The real hydrogen atom has NO angular momentum (spin=0) in the ground state, contrary to the Bohr model of it!!!!! </span></div>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt;">[Exactly, therefore it cannot radiate a photon except to a system w ang. mom. = hbar. No levels below gnd state have that value.]</span><br clear="none">
<span style="color:#7030A0;">Wrong answer to the given question. The ground state has IN THE FIRST PLACE nothing to do with the emitted energy part, but with what remains. What remains must be a mode of the system, a quantum state they call this in quantum mechanics.
It means that a single wavelength, 3D resonance must be maintained. For the hydrogen atom (or for that matter any spherical system) must have simultaneous solutions for r, theta and phi, such that at least one has a single wave in it. It appears to be the
radial solution, a breather (not the Bohr type phi solution with one wavelength on the circumference).</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">To get from a higher state into this state the right combination of energy, momentum and angular momentum must be emitted, hence the selection rules as the
are, and that is what your answer is about.<span class="yiv9586882251apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">The groundstate of the atom is the groundstate because it is the lowest energy state, with just the fundamental tone (one wavelength) fitting to the boundary
conditions.</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="color:#B45F06;">There is no reason<span class="yiv9586882251apple-converted-space"> </span><u>given</u><span class="yiv9586882251apple-converted-space"> </span>that the wavelength cannot fit 2 cycles rather than one. Is it more difficult than having
n wavelengths in a single cycle? (ref Lissajou figures)</span><span class="yiv9586882251apple-converted-space"> </span><span style="color:#B45F06;">This is the basis of Mill's hydrino states. The limiting factor is the photon.</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">See previous answer and understand that the reason is implicitly given there already. A mode of a resonator or waveguide, a quantum state, these ar the same
sort of things. They have Q or quality factor that tells you how broad or narrow the resonance is and how long it lives. For a very long live time such as the ground state hydrogen atom, the Q is very very high, and the level is very precisely defined. The
wave must therefore fit very very very very precisely on the mode. Not a factor of two difference, no, minus dozens of orders of magnitude precise!</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">The one wavelength holds for the complete atom, electron and proton: the electron is light and moving fast, the proton id heavy and slow, but both have the
same momentum! Hence they have the same de Broglie wavelength…</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="color:#B45F06;">The solution assuming an infinite mass nucleus (hence no deBroglie wavelength & no resonance) still produces discrete levels. Therefore that issue cannot be causal.</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Bullshit, sorry, but here you should really know better since:</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">1)</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#7030A0;"> <span class="yiv9586882251apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">I
have told you already you are referring to the BORN APPROXIMATION</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">2)</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#7030A0;"> <span class="yiv9586882251apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">It
is in every basic textbook, second year physics</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">3)</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#7030A0;"> <span class="yiv9586882251apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">The
so-called reduced mass gives a slightly different set of levels, the correct levels. Remember the Rydbergconstant? And its slightly different numbers?</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Just do your homework, and go to Wikipedia, that will be good enough.</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Here another remark regarding your earlier question, whether I was talking physics or mathematics. (see next question below)</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Here you see I get the physics right because I think physics. Then I get the numbers right because I understand the approximations, the calculus and the details.
That can only be if you know how to the mathematics right.</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Sorry I just hate mediocrity.</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="color:red;">Looking at your conditions produced other thoughts.</span></div>
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<ol style="margin-top:0cm;" start="1" type="1"><li class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal" style=""><span style="color:red;">The statement that "the coulomb potential runs to minus infinity" is a mathematician, not a physicist talking.</span></li></ol>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">True. The Coulomb potential is a mathematical concept that models reality quite perfectly. Mathematics is the language of physics. Further, the electron has
an almost 1/r dependent potential still at TeV collision energies, this is why people say it has point-like behavior.</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="color:#B45F06;">And, it will be considered valid until experimental evidence show otherwise. Then, 60 years of mathematical 'proofs' will immediately disappear. Do you know of any nuclear physicist who would consider the nuclear
Coulomb potential to be a singularity? Even before the quark model became popular? What is reality, a singular potential that contains all of the energy in the universe, or a presently measured finite charge density of the proton and neutron? Feynman jested
that the whole universe consisted of a single electron oscillating back and forth in time. If it was singular and contained all of the energy in the universe, maybe Feynman's jest was correct.</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">The Coulomb potential is BY DEFINITION a 1/r potential associated with a POINT CHARGE.</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">It therefore runs, by definition, to minus infinity.</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Real charges, like the proton or a charged party balloon, rubbed-up on a cat, have a cut-off at their respective charge radii of 0.87 fm and 10 cm: at smaller
size the potential may be or is quite constant. There is always a reason in the physics of things that will avoid infinities naturally.</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">I know you want to make that point, and I fully agree. But please do not misuse the argument or definition of things.</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Further your remark is irrelevant because the binding energy of the ground state of hydrogen (or any atom) is alpha^2 times smaller than the electron’s classical
radius (which incidentally is close to the charge radius of the proton)</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="color:#B45F06;">Do you consider the proton charge radius to be its field-energy density or the major extent of its<b>Coulomb potential</b><span class="yiv9586882251apple-converted-space"> </span>(e.g., the electron Compton radius)?</span><span class="yiv9586882251apple-converted-space"> </span><span style="color:#B45F06;">We
haven't defined charge yet have we? [Am I being the mathematician now for insisting on a valid definition?]</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">It is the proton’s START of the Coulomb potential! Look it Up in a book on high energy physics if you really want to know exactly what they mean by it.</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="color:red;">The potential energy PE must come from the energies, as expressed by the mass and charge, of proton and electron. Since the largest energy is the mass, the PE is limited to a GeV. Therefore, the electrical potential
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Yes it can exceed its RESTmass , and will be precisely gamma m0, see above, not exceeding its relativistic mass, of course.</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span style="color:#B45F06;">In some frame of reference, the relativistic mass is infinite. However, the charge field changes in that frame also. In the rest frame, PE is finite and 1/r must be limited.</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="color:red;">This, like relativity, makes a big difference in some fields of physics.</span></div>
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<ol style="margin-top:0cm;" start="2" type="1"><li class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal" style=""><span style="color:red;">The source of the wave nature of the electron is never defined in QM. Is it the 'hidden variable"?</span></li></ol>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">No it is not, but almost, what the real structure is, well we have our ideas,,,, The hidden variable has to do with phase coherence in the measurement process.
Will explain that over a glass of beer, it is worth a good set of papers.</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="color:red;">It can be defined classically, if spin is a real angular momentum, not just a Q#, and relativity is more than just a mind game.</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Quantum spin is angular momentum, but not that of a rigid body. For spin ½ you need something like a fluid that is circulating in 2 directions at the same
time, like a spinning, rotating , twisting torus. Think of a smoke ring with a twist and rotating like a wheel</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">More beer required here too</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="color:#B45F06;">I think of the surface of a ball of yarn! Only photons can pass thru each other (or itself), thus the electron is more than a fluid. It is circulating in<span class="yiv9586882251apple-converted-space"> </span><b><u>all</u></b><span class="yiv9586882251apple-converted-space"> </span>directions.
Uniquely, it can have an infinity of angular momenta. That is why it can have spin 1/2 in<span class="yiv9586882251apple-converted-space"> </span><b><u>any</u></b><span class="yiv9586882251apple-converted-space"> </span>direction you wish to chose. That question puzzled since college
days; but, I was too 'young' to properly question the 'cant' being fed us. I don't think that the professors, bright as they were, could have understood my question, much less answered it. (What about a spin axis along the time direction?)</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="">Who are you trying to convince here? Surely not me. Look at the 1997 Williamson van der Mark paper and find all you try to say. Incidentally the word fluid refers to something
you apparently do not know: It is well known that electromagnetic fields behave like a so-called INVISCID FLUID.</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="">Other fluids are useful too: more beer required ;-) I do agree that spin ½ is not easy, I know the problems and the salient details. It is one of the key things in physics to
understand!</span></div>
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<ol style="margin-top:0cm;" start="3" type="1"><li class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:red;">I do not believe that looking at the system in center-of-mass (momentum) coordinates introduces quantized levels in two dimensions. Can only adding 1 or 2 more dimensions
produce the fixed levels? Can you describe how such levels might occur? If you define a bell as quantized, then the levels can be quantized. However, they still can have a continuum of values unless the structure is fixed. I have to admit that this is like
my condition 1 and both are weak w/o a better reason for discrete values. The 'standing wave' concept is attractive, but misleading.</span></li></ol>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal" style=""><span style="color:red;">More below:</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:7.5pt;">From:</span></b><span class="yiv9586882251apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;"> </span></span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;">General
[mailto:<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:general-bounces%2Bmartin.van.der.mark" target="_blank" href="mailto:general-bounces%2Bmartin.van.der.mark"><span style="color:purple;">general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark</span></a>=<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><span style="color:purple;">philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a>]<span class="yiv9586882251apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On
Behalf Of<span class="yiv9586882251apple-converted-space"> </span></b>John Williamson<br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b><span class="yiv9586882251apple-converted-space"> </span>woensdag 6 mei 2015 11:12</span></div>
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<b>To:</b><span class="yiv9586882251apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br clear="none">
<b>Cc:</b><span class="yiv9586882251apple-converted-space"> </span>Nick Bailey; Kyran Williamson; Michael Wright; Manohar .; Ariane Mandray<br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b><span class="yiv9586882251apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Quantisation of classical electromagnetism</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;">Hihi,<br clear="none">
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All quantised means is "countable".</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:red;">QM is certainly putting a lot more weight to the word than that. Pointing out resonances has a physical meaning that can be useful.</span></div>
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Yes there are exceptions. Mostly exceptions! The quantised electron charge comes, for me, from an interaction rate. Hence the reason all charges in contact have the same value.</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:red;">I would say that this looks at effect, not cause or definition.</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;">Other quantum numbers may just be an intrinsic sign- such as the lepton number difference between the positron and the electron. Quantised states in atoms and quantum wells
are resonant states, indeed. In the FQHE these are bound quasi-particle-flux-quantum states. These are more musical ratios, than integer numbers. Quantised conductance, for example, is simply a rate-per-single-electron. The popular press and Wikipedia tends
to sweep all the unknowns into one big unknown. That thing which cannot be known - the great UNCERTAINTY! Assigning a quantum number to something is tantamount to putting all your lack of understanding into a single number. Too much of this kind of shit passes
as understanding!</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="color:red;">Agreed!</span></div>
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</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">The ground state of the Hydrogen atom is that energy where potential= kinetic, and the de Broglie wavelength of the electron equals the de Broglie wavelength of the proton. A single wavelength
with periodic boundary conditions - for both! What a beautiful resonance! Simple, singing resonance - with no dissipation. Physics tries indeed to mystify this, but it is really a simple congruence. Engineers know better!</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="color:red;">For a 1/r potential the virial thm states that KE = PE/2. You and Martin agree about the relationship between proton and electron as being important. Is this a claim of QM or something that you both simply agreed
on? The basic Schrodinger equation assumes an infinite proton mass.</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">This has nothing to do with the Schroedinger equation but with the Born approximation, which is not necessary to make, the proton mass is finite, and it can
be taken into account by introducing the reduced mass: m_p x m_e/(m_p + m_e)</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Oh and KE = -PE/2, PE is negative!!!</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="color:#B45F06;">Introducing the reduced mass (and a nuclear deBroglie wavelength for 'resonance') changes the values, but not the nature, of the discrete energy levels. The nucleus travels~2000 orbits before it completes a single
deBroglie wavelength. How come the electron is only allowed a maximum of a single cycle?</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">I have given you all the clues, now please do the work! The nucleus is slow and heavy, the electron light and fast, oscillating about their common centre of
mass with EXACTLY the same momentum and hence the same de Broglie wavelength.</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="color:red;">There is no nuclear wavelength, yet the solution has discrete levels. You are correct about a resonance between two wavelengths (frequencies). But I think that they are between the electron and EM wave becoming a
photon.</span></div>
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Indeed the Coulomb potential goes way down (as you argue so beautifully in your paper). Shorter lengths, however, are less than one wavelength and hence, though they could be resonant, actually at a higher energy, through interference. The one wavelength state
is the ground state. For this state the Coulomb field, cancelled outside the Bohr radius corresponds exactly to the 13.6 eV binding energy of the Hydrogen atom. All very simple and very beautiful!</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="color:red;">What prevents the 1/2 wavelength state from existing and being occupied? (Or for 1/n, with a single wavelength being completed in n orbits.)</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="">If you do that, it simply interferes away, then that energy has to go somewhere, it cannot be destroyed, so it will be radiated. This is why atoms radiate while an electron
changes “orbit” : temporarily there is no fit, but energy must be conserved.</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="color:#B45F06;">Are you assuming that the electron is a wave and not localized? That its wave function, distributed around the atom and extended to 2 orbits per cycle, would cancel because of phase reversal? Then what about
3 (or any odd integer) orbits?</span> </div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="">The electron is a wave and a particle at the same time, right?!</span></div>
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</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:red;">More below:</span></div>
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Martin is, as usual, right in (pretty much) everything he says. Especially in that it is very important!<br clear="none">
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Regards, John W.</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><b><span style="">From:</span></b><span class="yiv9586882251apple-converted-space"><span style=""> </span></span><span style="">General
[general-bounces+john.williamson=<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><span style="color:purple;">glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a>] on behalf of Mark, Martin van der [<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:martin.van.der.mark@philips.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:martin.van.der.mark@philips.com"><span style="color:purple;">martin.van.der.mark@philips.com</span></a>]<br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b><span class="yiv9586882251apple-converted-space"> </span>Wednesday, May 06, 2015 8:48 AM<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b><span class="yiv9586882251apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br clear="none">
<b>Cc:</b><span class="yiv9586882251apple-converted-space"> </span>Nick Bailey; Kyran Williamson; Michael Wright; Manohar .; Ariane Mandray<br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b><span class="yiv9586882251apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Quantisation of classical electromagnetism</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="">Dear Andrew,</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="">I have good answers to most of your questions, but have no time right now to write them down,<br clear="none">
we must come back to this, it is very important indeed.</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;">In any case it comes down to the following:</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D;">·</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D;"> <span class="yiv9586882251apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Quantization
comes from any wave equation with imposed boundary conditions.<span class="yiv9586882251apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">[if you can establish standing waves?]</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">stationary
waves may do already</span></div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D;">·</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D;"> <span class="yiv9586882251apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Uncertainty
is no more than what the Fourier limit tells you.<span class="yiv9586882251apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">[agreed]</span></div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D;">·</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D;"> <span class="yiv9586882251apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Copenhagen
interpretation is Copenhagen mystification: although it is not very wrong at the simple level, it takes away any possibility for improvement by dogma.</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">[agreed]</span></div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D;">·</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D;"> <span class="yiv9586882251apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Wave/particle
dualism is the consequence of special relativity, see Louis de Broglie.</span><span class="yiv9586882251apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">[do
you have a particular reference? I have not seen this statement before.]</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Thesis of
Louis de Broglie, more beer would also help. Niels Bohr and his gang were successful enough to make people forget about this or so, it is a mystery why it has not become common knowledge among physicists.</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span style="color:#B45F06;">I think that I had heard that before, but not really registered on it. I had thought of relativity as applied to the deBroglie wavelength rather than being fundamental to it. I'm
finding that my youthful disinterest in the history of physics is extracting a penalty now.</span></div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">It is not your fault, it is mentioned rarely. But since I have, now you know.</span></div>
<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span style="color:#B45F06;">I don't have his Thesis handy; but, in his "Theory of Quanta," he does provide support for your earlier statement about resonance between the nucleus and electron.</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="color:#B45F06;">"This is exactly BOHR’s formula that he deduced from the theorem mentioned above<br clear="none">
and which again can be regarded as a phase wave resonance condition for an electron in</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span style="color:#B45F06;">orbit about a proton."</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="color:#B45F06;">If this is also considered resonance, rather than just strict mechanics, then the energy levels have 3 resonances in coincidence.</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="">Dear Andrew I hope to have cleared up a few things, surely we should talk about them some more,</span></div>
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<div class="yiv9586882251MsoNormal"><span style="">Very best regards, Martin</span></div>
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