<div dir="ltr"><div>Dear Richard,<br><br></div>I'm not trying to be argumentative; but, I do want to get more specific.<br><div><div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 8:56 PM, Richard Gauthier <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" target="_blank">richgauthier@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">Andrew,<div> Thank your for your reply and questions.</div><div> 1. The size of the charged photon depends on one’s model of the photon. My relativistic model describes the trajectory of the charged photon but this trajectory could fit different photon models.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I believe you stated that your model is the trajectory, not dependent on either particle or wave models. Thus, the charged photon could either be on the order of the electron Compton radius or a micron long ?<br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div> 2. The trajectory of the charged photon is helical. So the charged photon’s energy density could move along the same helical trajectory. Again, it would depend on the particular model of the charged photon.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Is the charged photon a dipole (a double helix?), to maintain 'balance' along its trajectory, or is the distortion of space sufficient to restore and balance the displacement and centrifugal force of the helical motion?<br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div> 3. The average orbital path would be linear through or past the nucleus. The charged photon would circulate helically around its average path through the atom. The de Broglie wavelength is generated along the longitudinal direction of motion of the helically circulating charged photon, and that longitudinal direction passes through the nucleus. </div></div></blockquote><div><br>How do you calculate the deBroglie wavelength of the charged photon? As if it were a massive particle or a photon? Does the charged photon have a unique mass equivalence and a rest energy? <br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div>The electron wave function for the 1s orbital would correspond to any linear path through the nucleus. Since the starting position is not specified, all paths through the center would be included in the wave function (that’s why it is spherically symmetric). I think it’s not a matter of variable motion due to uncertainty.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>How do you distinguish the charged photon from an electron? What does the wave function represent that would cause (rather than be a result of) the anisotropic motion? Above and below, you have come close to saying that the charged photon is the electron. Yet it does not seem to be a 1-to-1 correspondence. I agree with your statement above for the s-orbital electrons. </div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div> 4. What is “waving” for the charged photon’s helical motion is the component of the charged photon’s generated plane wave along the longitudinal axis. This component of the helically circulating charged photon’s plane wave has the de Broglie wavelength. This longitudinal component of the photon’s generated plane wave is the wave function of the electron. The charged photon would make many (a large number of) helical rotations in one electron oscillation through the nucleus. In doing that it would be generating the de Broglie wavelength. There would be one complete de Broglie wavelength in one complete oscillation of the electron in the 1s state.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>My interpretation of what you say above is that the circulation frequency is much higher than the deBroglie frequency (would it be the electron Compton frequency?). The associated deBroglie wavelength is the motion of the charged photon (the electron) twice thru the nucleus. If so, then I think that I would agree with you on several points, even tho I would express it differently. Is this the 'slinky model' where the graded spacing of the coils varies twice in a deBroglie wavelength and the number of coils could be quite high?<br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div> 5. The charged photon naturally curls up in correlation with its charge and mass. Can’t be more specific now.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I look forward to more later.<br><br></div><div>Andrew<br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div> Have to run to school.</div><div> Richard</div><div><br><div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div class="h5"><div>On May 12, 2015, at 3:50 AM, Andrew Meulenberg <<a href="mailto:mules333@gmail.com" target="_blank">mules333@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br></div></div><div><div><div class="h5"><div dir="ltr"><div>Dear Richard,<br><br></div>I'm glad to see you describe the s
orbital electrons as going thru the nuclear region. From your
description, I get the impression that: <br><ol><li>the whole charged photon has a <b>length that is shorter than the electron orbital</b>. Is this true? If so, I agree.<br></li><li>the <b>trajectory is helical</b>.
Does this mean that the center of mass (energy density) moves in a
helical motion about (and offset from) the average orbit? Could you
describe what is helical in your model? I may very well agree with this also.<br></li><li>The orbital <b>path is linear</b>
(but with variable direction). This is seldom expressed or taught. I
agree in principle. The path is certainly more linear (oriented long
ellipse) than circular (which is the shape most students seem to end up
with, unless they accept the QM concept of a cloud). However, the
uncertainty principle indicates that the ang mom L is not exactly zero,
so the path could actually be circular (statistically, delta L <u>></u>
hbar/2 ?). Do the individual shapes belong to individual bound
electrons (until disturbed) or do all bound electrons spend some time in
the various shaped orbits to give a uniform distribution for all
similarly bound electrons, when averaged over a lifetime of
disturbances? <br></li><li>The<b> variable deBroglie wavelength</b> is
an aspect that few people address. I agree with it. However, have you
been able to define what is 'waving' with this wavelength? Is that the
rotation of the helix? Would that imply a single rotation for the helix
per orbit? Or would the number of helical turns per orbit be
sqrt(511,000/13.6) or some other high number? If the high number, what
is waving once per orbit?</li><li>I agree with the energetics.<br></li><li>We are <b>basically in agreement</b>
with our models. However, I have not yet understood if you consider the
electron to be your charged photon (which concept I could agree with)
or if you picture a charged photon to be able to exist and propagate at
the speed of light as a linear structure and can curl into an electron if exposed to an adequate <b>B</b>-field or <b>E</b>-field gradient.<br></li></ol><p>Item 1 is important to me, because I picture the electron to be 1/2 of a photon (perhaps a mm long) coiled about itself into a ball with radius of 1/2 the Compton radius (I used to think that it was the whole Compton radius). The other 1/2 becomes a positron. <br></p><p>Item
2 is important to me because I picture the ang mom axis (the spin axis)
of an electron as precessing about its velocity vector to give the
'helical' motion. This precession is the result of relativity giving a
torque to the electron by increasing the effective mass (reducing the
radius) of the portion of the electron that otherwise would exceed the
velocity of light. The center of mass would follow an elliptical
(perhaps non-helical) path that could be distorted by the effective <b>B</b>-field resulting from the electrons motion (<b>B</b> = d<b>E</b>/dt) about the nuclear charge (the spin-orbit interaction?).</p><p>We
seem to have nearly the same picture, but distinguished by a definition
that could be critical to its understanding. The neutron is not stable
outside of a nucleus. Is your charged photon stable outside of its
electron configuration?</p><p>Andrew</p>____________________________<br>Tue, May 12, 2015 at 11:53 AM, Richard Gauthier <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" target="_blank">richgauthier@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>Andrew and Martin,<div>
I think it would be a good challenge for anyone with a single-looped or
double-looped photon model of an electron to model their electron in
the 1s atomic state of hydrogen (where n=1, l=0, ml=0 and ms = + or -
1/2 hbar) where the electron has zero hbar atomic angular momentum even
though it has internal electron spin 1/2 hbar. I model the electron here
as oscillating back and forth linearly through the center of the atom
as a charged photon with a helical trajectory of variable pitch and
radius, with a total energy of E=mc^2 -13.6 eV and a maximum kinetic
energy when the helically circulating charged photon passes the nucleus,
generating a variable de Broglie wavelength along its trajectory
(because its longitudinal momentum is changing as it oscillates in the
atom) and making one complete de Broglie path per oscillation. The most
probable position of the charged photon (the electron) to be detected is
at 1 Bohr radius ao (as predicted by QM for the hydrogen atom) because
the charged photon obeys the Schrodinger equation (in the
non-relativistic approximation). If the 1s electron (charged photon)
absorbs an uncharged photon of energy 13.6 eV, the hydrogen atom is
ionized with the charged photon now having energy E=mc^2 .</div><div> Richard</div> <br></div></div></div>
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