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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Dear Andrew,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I am not in any way referring to any of my work, model or whatever.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I have put some serious effort in trying to teach you some real physics. Anyone can make a mistake, you know.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">First of all
<b>I have made a mistake</b> in trying to be very quick from the top of my head.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">It is the de Broglie frequency that is the same for electron and proton, not the the de Broglie wavelength and not the momentum:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The equantion is M_eR_e + M_pR_p = 0<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">R being the orbital radius, and not the orbital velocity.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I am sorry for that, I apologize.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">This can however not be obtained if you use the BO approximation.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Also that it is ONE wavefunction, that of the entire atom. The electron at some 1900^2 times higher speed than the proton, but with the same (orbital and de
Broglie) frequency.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Consequence, wavelength of proton is 1900 times shorter than for the electron.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">My remarks about the potential hold firmly.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Cheers, Martin<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy">Dr. Martin B. van der Mark</span><span lang="DE" style="color:navy"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy">Principal Scientist, Minimally Invasive Healthcare</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:navy"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:navy"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy">Philips Research Europe - Eindhoven</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:navy"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy">High Tech Campus, Building 34 (WB2.025)</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:navy"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy">Prof. Holstlaan 4</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:navy"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy">5656 AE Eindhoven, The Netherlands</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:navy"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy">Tel: +31 40 2747548</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> General [mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Andrew Meulenberg<br>
<b>Sent:</b> zaterdag 16 mei 2015 21:20<br>
<b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion; Andrew Meulenberg<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Potential energies of particles and photons<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Dear Martin,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Comments below:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 7:54 PM, Mark, Martin van der <<a href="mailto:martin.van.der.mark@philips.com" target="_blank">martin.van.der.mark@philips.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Dear Andrew,
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I have just read your email again, but now not on my Iphone but on my laptop. It is much easier that
way.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">You are completely missing the fact that you are using the
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:red">Born-Oppenheimer APPROXIMATION to the atom structure</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">. This is the beginning of all the
confusion you load on yourself (and the reader) as a consequence.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Born_Oppenheimer" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Born_Oppenheimer</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">At the level of my concern, the B.O. approx is fine. Please identify, in the arguments below, where it would be a limitation.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The proton is not infinitely massive, and in the H-atom it is rotating around/oscillating against
the electron just as much, in terms of its momentum as is the electron against the proton. As I said before, the momenta of electron and proton are exactly equal, and so are their de Broglie wavelengths. The electron and proton are quantum mechanically in
tune! The 2-body problem can be translated into a 1-body problem using the reduced mass.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reduced_mass" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reduced_mass</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I believe that you are sensitized to this issue because it is part of your model. An issue that I can accept, but am not convinced of its importance. I consider the synchrony of the proton and electron (equal orbital frequency) to be based
on Newton's 3rd law, not on resonance. Because the deBroglie wavelengths are equal, the proton completes one deBroglie wavelength cycle in many electron orbits. This does not appear to be good resonance.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The electric potential of the proton is meaningless against a neutral object, but against a charged
object, also having such a potential (let the word sink in… “potential”… it is nothing until…) the two may repel or attract. It is not one or the other, it is both.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I think that we may be saying the same thing here. <span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
The electric potential of the proton is </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">its potential to do work on another charge. I use the word 'ability' rather than 'potential'. I believe that the meaning is the same.
The important point, which I think you also made, is that the work done may not be from the potential at all, e.g., the work done on charging a van der Graaff accelerator is against the potential.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Any loss of the energy of a closed system comes from the system as a whole, and the system finds
a new balance in doing so.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I agree with this statement, if it is not used to be exclusive.
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The way you are talking about the hydrogen atom
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:red">violates Newton’s 3<sup>rd</sup> law</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton%27s_laws_of_motion" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton%27s_laws_of_motion</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">It is interesting that I had an argument with one of my coauthors earlier this evening on this very point. The force on the proton and electron are equal (and in opposite directions). Thus, since work is force
times distance (W = F*d), the work of a decaying atomic electron is being done by the proton. It is moving the electron; the electron is not moving the proton (to the approximation I am making). Also the electron is not moving itself. You could say that the
work is done by the E-field, not by either particle alone. However, you would not be correct, since the field comes from the particles.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">In the interaction between an electron and positron, as they get close enough together, their masses should increase when their velocities approach the speed of light. They do not, because their residual masses
decrease at the same rate. This allows energy to be conserved.The relativistic mass is electromagnetic (AC or alternating) in nature. The residual mass is being converted into EM energy. At some point, all of the 'DC' mass (and DC charge) is gone and only
photons remain. If this were not so, energy could not be conserved.<br>
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In the interaction between an electron and proton, as they get close enough together (s-orbitals), the electron mass should increase when its velocity approaches the speed of light.
<b>It does so</b>. Thus, it is not using up its potential energy in the process. Since energy is conserved, and a photon is emitted (from the e-p dipole, but mainly from the electron), the excess electron mass (relativistic) must come from the proton.
<b>QED</b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Since the proton is part of the system, we could correctly say that the relativistic electron mass comes from the system. However, that does not change the proof that
<b>the proton provides the mass energy for the electron decay</b>.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I hope this helps. Please stop confusing the poor students.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Cheers, Martin</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Physics has tried to simplify and codify its teaching for so long that important concepts seem to have been forgotten and therefore are not considered when looking at new concepts.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Andrew<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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