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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-GB link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Here’s another depiction of the trivial knot. This is from Wikipedia commons. You can depict it as one loop or two. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><img width=372 height=169 id="Picture_x0020_3" src="cid:image001.jpg@01D0991B.2BA25510"></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Martin’s electron features a double loop, focus on the black line. But it looks like a single loop too. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><img width=437 height=327 id="Picture_x0020_2" src="cid:image002.jpg@01D0991B.2BA25510"></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>John D<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> General [mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>David Mathes<br><b>Sent:</b> 27 May 2015 18:39<br><b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Force Equations<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Martin<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1432745813750_26429"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1432745813750_26488"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>"...</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:black'> a light speed knot of energy" </span><span style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:black'>That phrase has a nice ring to it. </span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1432745813750_26714"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1432745813750_26550"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>I look forward to your paper. Does the paper address the topological construction of the light speed energy (LSE) knot? If the knot can be desribed parametrically, even better!<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1432745813750_26550"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1432745813750_26550"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>David<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1432745813750_26551"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:3.75pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' id="yui_3_16_0_1_1432745813750_26549"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1432745813750_26548"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1432745813750_26547"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1432745813750_26546"><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center;background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><hr size=1 width="100%" align=center></span></div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'> "Mark, Martin van der" <<a href="mailto:martin.van.der.mark@philips.com">martin.van.der.mark@philips.com</a>><br><b>To:</b> David Mathes <<a href="mailto:davidmathes8@yahoo.com">davidmathes8@yahoo.com</a>>; Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion <<a href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>> <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 27, 2015 2:38 AM<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Force Equations</span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1432745813750_26769"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div id=yiv0658526485><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1432745813750_26772"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1432745813750_26771"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1432745813750_26770"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Hi David,</span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>You have said the word: scalability!</span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Very important indeed.</span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Paper [9570-53], SPIE Optics + Photonic, San Diego, 9-13 August 2015<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>On the nature of “stuff” and the hierarchy of forces<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=DE style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Martin B. van der Mark*</span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Philips Research Europe, WB-21, HTC 34, 5656 AE Eindhoven, The Netherlands <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Abstract<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>From super clusters of galaxies down to the quarks in the proton, at all length scales the structure of matter is the result of a balance of forces. In this paper we show that with decreasing size there is an increase of the fraction of kinetic and binding energy with respect to the total energy. Smaller sizes require stronger forces which represent more of the energy available. The smallest possible size of granularity is found where the internal and total energy become comparable, which occurs at the size of the proton. We infer that the proton is the smallest stable particle with structure, being a light speed knot of energy.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>The paper is virtually finished and 15 pages long.</span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>So we will be able to discuss and enjoy this point extensively.</span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Best regards, Martin</span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=DE style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Dr. Martin B. van der Mark</span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Principal Scientist, Minimally Invasive Healthcare</span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Philips Research Europe - Eindhoven</span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>High Tech Campus, Building 34 (WB2.025)</span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Prof. Holstlaan 4</span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>5656 AE Eindhoven, The Netherlands</span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Tel: +31 40 2747548</span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div id=yiv0658526485yqt83109><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> General [<a href="mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>David Mathes<br><b>Sent:</b> woensdag 27 mei 2015 7:19<br><b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Force Equations</span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div id="yiv0658526485yui_3_16_0_1_1432702775254_2935"><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Richard<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div id="yiv0658526485yui_3_16_0_1_1432702775254_2935"><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div id="yiv0658526485yui_3_16_0_1_1432702775254_2935"><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>The conjecture is that the parametric equations for photon-based electrons can be used as the basis to describe other particles and extended to all Standard Model particles. This mathematical physics approach proposes a parameter-based topology that may be useful as a tool in extending the Standard Model and perhaps explaining CPT violations. However, group theory and in particular Lie groups at least to the form of U(1)XSU(2)X SU(3) is related to the topological circulating photon/quanta models. (PBE).<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div id="yiv0658526485yui_3_16_0_1_1432702775254_3154"><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div id="yiv0658526485yui_3_16_0_1_1432702775254_3154"><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Now, I am quite familiar with your parametric sets of equations which come in three types: Newtonian, Relativistic and Transluminal sets. In this paper a roadmap is laid out for exploring a parametric topological description of each elementary particle. Each parameter within the equations can be varied. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div id="yiv0658526485yui_3_16_0_1_1432702775254_3154"><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div id="yiv0658526485yui_3_16_0_1_1432702775254_3154"><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>While some may perceive this as a quest for the smallest particle or the ultimate "atom" with such questions as what's inside the electron, what's inside the photon and what's inside the quanta, such an approach only addresses one dimension common ignored, scalability. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div id="yiv0658526485yui_3_16_0_1_1432702775254_3154"><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div id="yiv0658526485yui_3_16_0_1_1432702775254_3154"><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>In any electron model theory, nature has thrown fields into the mix, something not easily defined in the Standard Model. Perhaps a topologcal view might provide insights to combining Quantum Field Theory <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div id="yiv0658526485yui_3_16_0_1_1432702775254_3154"><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>with the Standard Model.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div id="yiv0658526485yui_3_16_0_1_1432702775254_3154"><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div id="yiv0658526485yui_3_16_0_1_1432702775254_3154"><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div id="yiv0658526485yui_3_16_0_1_1432702775254_3154"><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Best<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div id="yiv0658526485yui_3_16_0_1_1432702775254_3154"><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div id="yiv0658526485yui_3_16_0_1_1432702775254_3154"><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>David<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div id="yiv0658526485yui_3_16_0_1_1432702775254_3154"><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div id="yiv0658526485yui_3_16_0_1_1432702775254_3154"><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div id="yiv0658526485yui_3_16_0_1_1432702775254_3154"><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:3.75pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' id="yiv0658526485yui_3_16_0_1_1432702775254_3264"><div id="yiv0658526485yui_3_16_0_1_1432702775254_3263"><div id="yiv0658526485yui_3_16_0_1_1432702775254_3262"><div id="yiv0658526485yui_3_16_0_1_1432702775254_3901"><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center;background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><hr size=1 width="100%" align=center></span></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> Richard Gauthier <<a href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" target="_blank">richgauthier@gmail.com</a>><br><b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion <<a href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>> <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 26, 2015 9:59 PM<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Force Equations</span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div id="yiv0658526485yui_3_16_0_1_1432702775254_3261"><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id=yiv0658526485><div id="yiv0658526485yui_3_16_0_1_1432702775254_3260"><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>David,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div id="yiv0658526485yui_3_16_0_1_1432702775254_3259"><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> And of course Chip has a double-looped photon model of the electron, composed of a charged photon.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> Richard<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div id=yiv0658526485yqt35892><div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>On May 26, 2015, at 5:53 PM, Richard Gauthier <<a href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" target="_blank">richgauthier@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div id=yiv0658526485yqt22378><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>David,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> see your referenced quote.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> In the present company, Vivian proposes a double-looped electron which is charged, confined and contained (is there a difference?) and whose radius falls as 1/gamma. John W and Martin proposed (1997) a double-looped photon model of the electron where the photon is uncharged (the effective electron’s charged is at the center of their model of a resting electron) and the energy of a moving electron falls off as 1/gamma. I propose a generic double-looped charged photon that forms an electron where the trajectory of the moving electron falls off as 1/ gamma^2, but whose photon radius from its trajectory may depend on the specific model of the photon and for the TEQ model of the photon falls off as 1/gamma, which dominates 1/gamma^2 at high electron velocities. Is this the current batch of electron theories you are referring to or are there others on your list? Only Vivian’s and my double-looping photon's are charged in this list. (I know of other related models, like Hestenes' zitter model (though he doesn’t identify the helical light-speed charge in his electron model with a photon, and Rivas’s model, which is similar to that of Hestenes — it is also not a double-loop charged photon model. Oliver Consa in Spain has a 2014 article “A helical model of the electron” at <a href="http://vixra.org/pdf/1501.0028v1.pdf" target="_blank">http://vixra.org/abs/1408.0203</a> which is a double-loop photon model (charged as I remember) which references the Williamson- van der Mark paper. An article by Grahame Blackwell on the closed-loop particle formation by photon is at <a href="http://www.transfinitemind.com/cosmicasymmetry.htm" target="_blank">http://www.transfinitemind.com/cosmicasymmetry.htm</a> . I’m not sure if his circulating photon is charged or not. Also I’m not sure where John M’s electron model fits into this picture.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> You are assuming (below) that the photon is massless or has a perhaps very small mass. You are referring to the commonly known photon. But a charged photon would not necessarily be massless. In my model, the charged photon modeling an electron has the rest mass of the electron.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> Richard<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><div><div><div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>David: The current batch of electron theories suggest that photons are confined, contained, and charged to form an electron. So a linear path photon undergoes a transformation to a curved path charged photon that behaves like the electron. However, the photon is massless and the electron has a clearly defined mass. Perhaps we cannot measure the photon mass because it's so small. After all, if there is any mass to the photon, then it might be possible to lower the mass even further and create the massless particle. </span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>On May 26, 2015, at 5:05 AM, Andrew Meulenberg <<a href="mailto:mules333@gmail.com" target="_blank">mules333@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Dear David and Martin,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>This exchange has just challenged me to re-examine some of my thinking.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Based on the paper that I will write for the conference (and another one* that I just submitted to arXiv and will submit to a journal), I will be proposing that mass and charge are expressions of the same thing (not just both having energy). However, in a photon, the net charge is zero, but it has alternating fields (concentrated locally over an extended photon length). If the 'charge' reflected in the waves is alternating, does not the mass also alternate? But, if it alternates + and - (to give a net-zero mass), how can the photon have inertia and momentum? How can it be measured when captured in Martin's box? I now have to assume that the mass must be related to the square (or absolute value) of the charge. Is this not close to what John M. has proposed? Actually, the energy is proportional to the square of the fields, so this would be a natural conclusion that might be independent of John M.s model. But it does address, at least partially, the nature of mass of a photon.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Since I have shown in the papers that relativistic mass is EM field energy, there are other implications as well.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Andrew<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>* I think that I posted an earlier draft of this. But, here is the latest version.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>___________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>On Tue, May 26, 2015 at 2:19 PM, Mark, Martin van der <span class=yiv0658526485><<a href="mailto:martin.van.der.mark@philips.com" target="_blank">martin.van.der.mark@philips.com</a>></span> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Dear David,</span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Light has mass, it is always the same: m=E/c^2 = hbar*omega or m=p/c=hbar*k. If it hits you, you will notice its momentum, hence its mass. Only if you put it in a box you will really be able to experience the mass as gravitational, see “light is heavy” for a proper explanation of the relativistic facts and confusions. The reason is that with the box around it cannot fly away so that you will not be able to interact with it to actually notice the mass.</span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>The experiments you mention do just that: making a box.</span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Regards, Martin</span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span lang=DE style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Dr. Martin B. van der Mark</span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Principal Scientist, Minimally Invasive Healthcare</span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Philips Research Europe - Eindhoven</span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>High Tech Campus, Building 34 (WB2.025)</span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Prof. Holstlaan 4</span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>5656 AE Eindhoven, The Netherlands</span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Tel: +31 40 2747548</span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>From:</span></b></span><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> General [mailto:<a href="mailto:general-bounces%2Bmartin.van.der.mark" target="_blank">general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark</a>=<a href="mailto:philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank">philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>David Mathes</span></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><br><span class=yiv0658526485><b>Sent:</b> dinsdag 26 mei 2015 6:29</span><br><span class=yiv0658526485><b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion</span><br><span class=yiv0658526485><b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Force Equations</span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>John M., Andrew et al</span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>If the gravitational component stops oscillating, then the non-oscillating component might provide insight into a stopped or frozen photon.</span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Does the Poynting vector disappear if there is no oscillation? That is, is the Poynting vector frequency dependent? </span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>To examine this point, perhaps we need to move up to four-vector or full tensor at least for the theory</span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>So far, photon-defined electron theories assume zero for the rest mass for the photon. If the photon has mass, one would expect charge. If there is mass with no charge, we have some explaining to do. And better measurement of mass is required. So, if we could stop the photon and measure the mass - no matter how small but greater than zero - should we expect charge?</span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>The current batch of electron theories suggest that photons are confined, contained, and charged to form an electron. So a linear path photon undergoes a transformation to a curved path charged photon that behaves like the electron. However, the photon is massless and the electron has a clearly defined mass. Perhaps we cannot measure the photon mass because it's so small. After all, if there is any mass to the photon, then it might be possible to lower the mass even further and create the massless particle. </span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>If we could stop a photon and then restart the photon, one would expect the photon to continue on it's original vector. </span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> There are at least two papers where photons have been stopped or frozen. In the following experiment, light was stopped for about one minute. This store-and-forward photon may be the basis of future quantum computing and communications systems. Then a few years later, a photon was "frozen" with an opaque crystal. To me, this trapping sounds like a squeezed state or a Glauber state.</span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><b><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Stopped Light and Image Storage by Electromagnetically Induced Transparency up to the Regime of One Minute</span></b></span><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><a href="http://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.111.033601" target="_blank">http://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.111.033601</a></span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><a href="http://www.princeton.edu/engineering/news/archive/?id=13459" target="_blank">http://www.princeton.edu/engineering/news/archive/?id=13459</a></span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><b><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Sept 8, 2014 Observation of a Dissipation-Induced Classical to Quantum Transition</span></b></span><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><a href="http://journals.aps.org/prx/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevX.4.031043" target="_blank">http://journals.aps.org/prx/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevX.4.031043</a></span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><a href="http://www.princeton.edu/engineering/news/archive/?id=13459" target="_blank">http://www.princeton.edu/engineering/news/archive/?id=13459</a></span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>The mechanisms for stopping or freezing light aren't fully understood which may include CPT violation or other anomalies. One possibility is the photon is in a squeezed state or a Glauber coherence state. If chirality suffers, the we have a parity violation resulting in CP or PT violations since CPT violations come in pairs. If charge is created by this stopped photon, is mass created? Then we have CP and CT as options. </span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Photons are normally considered to be non-stop particles. However, in these two cases they appear more as direct flight particles with zero mass that when released continue on.</span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Does a trapped photon have any rest mass? </span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>How would a photon with a rest mass affect the photon-electron relationship?</span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Best</span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>David</span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center;background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><hr size=1 width="100%" align=center></span></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><b><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>From:</span></b></span><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> Andrew Meulenberg <<a href="mailto:mules333@gmail.com" target="_blank">mules333@gmail.com</a>></span></span><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><br><span class=yiv0658526485><b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion <<a href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>> </span><br><span class=yiv0658526485><b>Sent:</b> Monday, May 25, 2015 8:07 PM</span><br><span class=yiv0658526485><b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Force Equations</span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Dear John M.,</span></span><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><br><br><span class=yiv0658526485>You may be saving me a lot of work. I was planning on working on super-gravity this year and was basing it on energy-density-induced non-linearities. You may have solved the problem, or at least laid the ground work, before I ever get to it. Your statement "... gravitational waves require spacetime to have the specified <u>energy density</u>... ," is definitely pushing in the right direction. General Relativity is concerned about mass. At the basic level, it is mass/energy density that controls the interactions. This goes to the nuclear levels, i.e., below the region of validity for QM as we know it.</span><br><br><span class=yiv0658526485>Your study of the various ratios, and the identification of relationships leads to a whole field of information that is to easy to overlook without your signposts.</span><br><br><span class=yiv0658526485>Good luck,</span><br><br><span class=yiv0658526485>Andrew</span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>_________________________________________________________ </span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>However, I have also had two other major successes which I will briefly mention here. In the future I will dedicate a separate email to each of these other subjects. First, my son Jim, has generated computer simulations which show various characteristics of my particle model. Since my model quantifies frequency, amplitude and impedance, my models actually represent calculated effects. I might be able to send some computer simulations tomorrow. </span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Another success is that I can now show that my model of fundamental particles gives new insights into the electric field and the gravitational field generated by an electron or other fundamental particle. I previously concluded that an electron’s electric field contains both a non-oscillating strain of spacetime that produces most of the effects we associate with the electric field. However, there is also an oscillating distortion of spacetime at the electron’s Compton frequency. We know the energy density of an electron’s electric field, the frequency and the impedance of spacetime, so we can calculate the amplitude of the wave required to produce the known energy density of the electron’s electric field. This amplitude exactly corresponds to the expected magnitude and distribution expected from my particle model. </span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>The new gravitational insight is: I can now prove that gravity also has both a non-oscillating component that produces curved spacetime and an oscillating component that implies that a gravitational field also has energy density. When you compare the energy density of a gravitational field to the “interactive energy density of spacetime”, it is possible to see how the combination produces the curved spacetime.</span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>The document attached above is a few pages out of the revised version of my book. These pages contain some recently added information and some older information which was partly covered in a previous attachment. However, I decided to include some of that older information also since it sets the stage for the new information. I had to start somewhere, so the attachment starts in the middle of the book. Even though there is a vast amount of missing information, I think that you will be able to get the key points from the attachment. </span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>My approach based on spacetime allows much more detailed analysis than the rest of the group because I start with specific properties of spacetime which can be quantified. I have dipole waves in spacetime which have specific frequencies, produce specific displacements of space and time and have dimensionless strain amplitudes which can be quantified. Combining this with the impedance of spacetime and some equations that I have developed, it is possible to calculate particle size, energy, energy density, forces, etc. Most important, the approach predicts that the particles (called “rotars) can generate three forces which correspond to the strong force, the electromagnetic force and gravity. In a previous post I gave some equations which showed previously unknown relationship between the gravitational force and the electrostatic force that were derived from my model. Now I have generated more equations which specify the relationship between the electrostatic force and the gravitational force produced by fundamental particles such as an electron. </span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>The attached document is 5 pages. The last 2 pages are totally new, but even the first 3 pages can be seen in a new light. You will see that the relationship between the electrostatic force from charge<i> e</i> (designated <i>F</i><sub>e</sub>) and the gravitational force (designated <i>F</i><sub>g</sub>) is independent of the model which made these predictions. However, the equations on the last two pages fit so well with my model, that they become a proof for the model.</span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>John M.</span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center;background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><hr size=2 width="100%" align=center></span></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv0658526485><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><Mass and the Coulomb potential e_p short4.pdf></span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>_______________________________________________<br>If you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light and Particles General Discussion List at <a href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" target="_blank">richgauthier@gmail.com</a><br><a href="<a href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/richgauthier%40gmail.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1" target="_blank">http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/richgauthier%40gmail.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1</a>"><br>Click here to unsubscribe<br></a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></blockquote></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id=yiv0658526485yqt63570><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>_______________________________________________<br>If you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light and Particles General Discussion List at <a href="mailto:davidmathes8@yahoo.com" target="_blank">davidmathes8@yahoo.com</a><br><a href="<a href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/davidmathes8%40yahoo.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1" target="_blank">http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/davidmathes8%40yahoo.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1</a>"><br>Click here to unsubscribe<br></a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center;background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><hr size=2 width="100%" align=center></span></div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:gray'>The information contained in this message may be confidential and legally protected under applicable law. 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