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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">John D,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Thank you for your remark about the vortices, it is correct but not yet complete, the following must be taken into account as well.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">First, particles 3-D and therefore more complicated than a 2-D vortex. Also, often phenomena in even dimensional space are quite different from those in odd
dimensional spaces.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Second, a big vortex and a smaller vortex in a bathtub do still repel, but in case of elementary particles there has to be a precise match of their nature:
they must (in the quantum mechanical sense) be identical. Electrons do it with other electrons, not with protons.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Basically, in our Compton wave models for a fermion this comes from the interference and superposition of the two particles leading to either an averaging of
the two energies or a coherent state with 2x2 the amount of energy. So that is why. John W and I will complete a paper on this after the conference, no time left before.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Very best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Martin<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Dr. Martin B. van der Mark</span><span lang="DE" style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:navy;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Principal Scientist, Minimally Invasive Healthcare</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:navy;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:navy;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Philips Research Europe - Eindhoven</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:navy;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">High Tech Campus, Building 34 (WB2.025)</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:navy;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Prof. Holstlaan 4</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:navy;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">5656 AE Eindhoven, The Netherlands</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:navy;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Tel: +31 40 2747548</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> General [mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>John Duffield<br>
<b>Sent:</b> vrijdag 29 mei 2015 9:07<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'; 'David Mathes'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] de Broglie Waves from Chapter 1<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">One has to understand the MECHANISM - the underlying reason for the very different behaviour of fermions and bosons.
<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#0000CC">Two waves can ride over one another and displace each other¡¯s path, but two whirlpools cannot overlap. And counter-rotating
vortices move together whilst contra-rotating vortices move apart. </span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#0000CC;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> General [<a href="mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>John Williamson<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 29 May 2015 05:17<br>
<b>To:</b> David Mathes; Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] de Broglie Waves from Chapter 1<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">Dear all,<br>
<br>
Before anyone runs off with any wrong impressions here, the de Broglie derivation is not, in any way, dependent on there being an enormous underlying mass and energy density in space and time, but merely on a proper consideration of the properties of special
relativity. This is, I think, what Richard may have meant when he asked the question.<br>
<br>
The de original Broglie derivation (in the thesis link I circulated earlier) used only the properties of the relativistic transformation of frequency (in energy) and of time. This was derived in the twenties. The derivations mentioned in the chapter 1 of John
M's book are nice, have some beautiful pictures and are correct as far as I can see, but they are nothing new (as he says himself) in general and nothing to do, in particular, with a speculative hyper-energy background to space and time.<br>
<br>
Further, it is not so that the double-loop model precludes a proper derivation of this relation. It is (trivially) so that if you start by (wrongly) putting a factor of two in in the initial calculation you will get a factor of two out. Surprise! The double
looping comes from the topology of the folding of the inherent twist of light with its turn in confinement. There are then two frequencies simultaneously, an octave apart. The base frequency is still that of light-in-a-box.
<br>
<br>
All relativistic models - including notably the Dirac model developed in the thirties - properly account for the de Broglie wavelength as being due to these (merely relativistic) transformations. This is also discussed, for example, in Martin and my 1997 paper.
Martin had derived this, again independently, from the properties of the (double looped) photon back in 1991.
<br>
<br>
Further, the double-looping is required to PROPERLY account for the difference between fermions and bosons. Fermions, as is well known, must have an internal 720 degree rotation before returning to their starting configuration. This is what a spinor is. Look
it up. Wikipedia is a good place to start. Simple 360 degree models have a long history (going back to Lord Kelvin at Glasgow) but have not yet proven consistent with experiment.
<br>
<br>
Further, there has been a lot of focus on calculating a VALUE for hbar. This is a red herring. It is not normal behaviour that something half as big behaves completely differently. Small humans do not have an exclusion principle that humans twice as large lack.
Merely finding a value is not the point. One has to understand the MECHANISM - the underlying reason for the very different behaviour of fermions and bosons.
<br>
<br>
Regards, John W.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"> General
[general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org] on behalf of David Mathes [davidmathes8@yahoo.com]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 28, 2015 6:19 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] de Broglie Waves from Chapter 1</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black">John<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black">I am...speechless.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black">David<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> John Macken <<a href="mailto:john@macken.com">john@macken.com</a>><br>
<b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles <<a href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 28, 2015 10:14 AM<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [General] de Broglie Waves from Chapter 1</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:black">Richard asked a question that jarred me a little bit. The question was,
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#C00000">¡°Is there a quantitative fit to the de Broglie wavelength equation, and if so, why?¡±</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:black"> The
reason that I said that it jarred me is that I had been proceeding under the assumption that this group understood all the information about how de Broglie waves are connected to light waves. While I independently developed all the information in chapter
1 of my book, I have subsequently found other references which cover the connection between counter-propagating light waves and de Broglie waves. In fact, I discovered that de Broglie himself made this point. The illustrations and the appendix analysis contained
in chapter 1 of my book go beyond what others have done. I suggest that you read this information before you will be able to understand my other simulations.
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:black">The importance of the concepts in chapter 1 of my book cannot be overstated for any physicist that is attempting to understand the structure
of an electron. Figure 1-1 on page 1-5 of the attached ¡°Chapter 1.pdf¡± illustrates several important points.</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:black">1)</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:black">
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:black">Counter propagating light waves in a moving frame of reference
<b>perfectly</b> simulate both de Broglie waves and special relativity effects. In figure 1 the high frequency waves are the light waves while the envelope modulation waves are the equivalent of de Broglie waves. These de Broglie waves have the correct wavelength,
the correct phase velocity and the correct group velocity. The wave pattern also exhibits the correct relativistic length contraction. These points are made in the text of the chapter and rigorously proven in the attached appendix. (The mathematical analysis
in the appendix was done by Chris Ray of St. Mary¡¯s College.)</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1432829116296_26555">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:black">2)</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:black">
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:black">As illustrated in figure 1-1, one complete de Broglie wavelength includes two of the lobe/null combinations. A null occurs when the counter propagating waves are 180 degrees
out of phase. The oscillations of the light wave lobes also undergo a 180 degree phase shift between adjacent lobes. This phase shift is hard to see in figure 1-1, but it is easier to see in figure 1-4. If you follow one color through the dark zone, it
becomes the opposite color on the other side of the dark zone. This indicates the 180 degree phase shift. The point is that it takes two of these lobes to complete one de Broglie wavelength. This point is included in figure 1-1.
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1432829116296_26564">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:black">3)</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:black">
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:black">The counter propagating wave analysis also generates the correct relativistic time dilation if you analyze the frequency of oscillation of the combined light waves. (appendix)</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1432829116296_26566">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:black">4)</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:black">
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:black">The counter propagating wave analysis also generates the correct kinetic energy and the correct relativistic corrections to kinetic energy. (appendix)</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1432829116296_26613">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:black">5)</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:black">
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:black">One point that I have not made before in the discussion of single loop versus double loop models is that the correct de Broglie waves are only generated if the electron disturbs
the surrounding volume at the electron¡¯s Compton angular frequency </span><i><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Cambria Math","serif";color:black">¥ø</span></i><i><sub><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:black">c</span></sub></i><i><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:black">
= mc<sup>2</sup>/</span></i><i><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Cambria Math","serif";color:black">©€</span></i><i><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:black"> = c/<s>¥ë</s></span></i><sub><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:black">c
</span></sub><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:black"> which implies a reduced wavelength of: <i><s>¥ë</s><sub>c</sub> =
</i></span><i><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Cambria Math","serif";color:black">©€</span></i><i><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:black">/mc = c/</span></i><i><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Cambria Math","serif";color:black">¥ø</span></i><i><sub><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:black">c</span></sub></i><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:black">
In other words, a model of an electron that assumes twice the Compton frequency will not generate the correct de Broglie waves if the counter propagating mechanism is assumed.</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1432829116296_26537">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:black">6)</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:black">
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:black">My particle model had as a requirement that it must be capable of generating the correct de Broglie waves, the correct kinetic energy and the correct relativistic effects.
All of this is accomplished by the model chosen since it includes counter propagating waves at the Compton frequency/wavelength in the ¡°external volume¡± of the electron.
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1432829116296_26538">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:black"> </span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1432829116296_26616">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:black">While others in the group are speculating about knots, swirls and spikes, I am running simulations which are generating real testable
results. I am generating gravity and electric fields. I am finding previously unknown connections between the gravitational force and the electrostatic force. I am giving a physical description of the distortion of spacetime caused by a charged particle.
I welcome a debate about whether an electron is a confined photon or oscillations of the vacuum. </span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1432829116296_26617">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:black"> </span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:black">John M. </span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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