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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"" lang="EN-US">Good morning everyone,<br>
<br>
Firstly - yes indeed I do not think I have it precisely right in the paper I have circulated yet. I am not in the habit of being completely right first-time every time! I'm actually quite pleased about that - otherwise where would be the fun? I have certainly
not explained myself well enough yet. Martin has, already, done a better job than me, on the nature of the photon, in his comment yesterday.
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"" lang="EN-US">Secondly, though, I do not agree with Chip that it ok to put photons on top of one another, or with
Richard that the solution is to think about charged photons.<br>
<br>
The problem is description - and language is such an imprecise tool - words carry far too much weight yet you need to use them. More, if one is going to properly describe nature in a theory – you need the actual theory – not just vague notions that address
a single problem. For me the phrase “charged photon”, for example, is an oxymoron. The photon is for me, by its nature an uncharged and rest-massless thing. If it has charge it has rest-mass. If it has rest-mass it is not a photon. This is my problem though:
I do not own the word “photon”.<br>
<br>
Having a word for "photon" means that one is tempted to think that it is a thing. I say it and mean something – most of you hear something else (except Martin – he and I are pretty close on this and I agree with his description). For most, the concept separates
it from the complete process of charge-charge exchange of a quantum of energy - which is actually what is going on, and what is actually observed. So, when I say the photon is self-quantised I am not talking about a little self-contained quantized EM bullet
being emitted independent of its emitter or absorber. One must include the properties of emitter and absorber as well - these are essential to the quantisation and it is from these that one calculates the (mere) value of the charge and Plank's constant. It
is, as I argue, the properties of the emission-absorption process which give the quantisation. It is the initial configuration of the fields, engendered in the emitter that must modulate the carrier to a pure zero-rest mass configuration in order to propagate.
The initial fields in the emitter must fulfil strict criteria – corresponding exactly to those observed physically. They may only transform with the same factor as does the frequency (this is just normal relativity – not an extra condition). Fields transform,
however, only perpendicular to the boost, whereas the 4-vector transforms only parallel to it. Again, just the standard relativity of fields and vectors. If the fields are right, then they can be transported by a hypercomplex exponential which normally contains
rest-mass components and cannot itself propagate. It remains at rest at the site of the emitter (though it may recoil a bit). I think the reason I am getting the wrong value for the constant of Plank is nothing to do with the velocities I’m using but comes
about because I am assuming at first that the usual emitter is an electron – when in fact it is usually an atom. Isolated electrons cannot emit. I need now to brush up on atomic physics, Next job. Next paper – hopefully.<br>
<br>
No matter. The argument in the paper I have already posted is precisely that electromagnetism remains continuous and un-quantised. The point is that - for a long distance exchange of electromagnetic energy ONLY states which have certain properties may propagate.
Chief amongst those properties (for the wave-function proposed) is that constrained by this form, electromagnetic energy, propagated over a distance in space, must come in "lumps". The wave-function proposed supports ONLY a change in frequency. That is the
wave-function I propose works if, and only if, the energy transferred is proportional to the frequency. This is what is new about it. It only "works" if the light comes in lumps. It only propagates strongly constrained fields. This is not to say that electromagnetism
itself is quantised - it is not. It remains free to chirp and stretch and polarise freely as Martin explains. It describes only non-interacting waves NIW, as Chandra argues. Most of the physics is still just classical electromagnetism. Chandra is mostly right
(in my view). Read his papers! The inter-action is not between photons, it is between charges. Photons are the bit that do not inter-act. This is what NIW means.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"" lang="EN-US">The new theory allows (actually it requires) the description of continuous waves, locally. They just
do not propagate over long distances (even a few wavelengths!) because that is excluded at the level of the first turn (the first differential).
<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>It is the whole process that exhibits the quantisation – just as Martin says. It is just that if light wants to go anywhere it, necessarily, starts looking a lot like a photon. Richard is right to separate out the different
levels of quantisation as well. It is not one thing, but the separation of the continuous into integer units of various dimension. There is not one “quantisation” in nature, but many. The new theory pertains only the process usually called photon exchange.
The quantisation I am talking about here is the quantisation of EM into "photons".<br>
<br>
Now, coming onto that process and that argument, you say, Chip, that it should be perfectly possible to put two photons precisely on top of one another so that they add linearly. 1+1=2. Yes – but no. Such an object is and has to be an object with a different
frequency. That is the point. This comes to the heart of the matter and the heart of the reason I argue the whole process should come in lumps defined by the frequency alone. If it were so that one could put two photons on top of one another, one would observe
the two "photons" to be emitted at precisely the same time in the same emission event, and absorbed at precisely the same time and place in the absorption event. That is one would propagate two red (say) photons and get a blue's worth of energy in the exchange
event now involving two photons. Now you may want this to be so, it may feel like a nice friendly thing photons (which are after all bosons) should be able to do. Only problem is that such a notion is in contradiction with what is observed experimentally.
One could put a diffraction grating between source and detector, for example, such that the photons appeared in different places according to their frequency. Place the detector at the "red" position. No signal. No di-photon events with the characteristics
of red photons. Where are they? Try going to the blue position. There they are! Appearing as one lump of energy one at a time. They do have the doubled energy one would expect from 1+1= 2 – but they do not – experimentally- have the same wavelength, or frequency.
You get only blue ones. This is what you observe and what has been observed all along in experiment since the photo-electric effect. In your thinking you must be rigorous enough to bear this in mind. What is observed in experiment is what your theory must
parallel. Otherwise it is just fantasy (fantasy is good!). To be proper physics, though, it must not just describe what does happen. It must also say why what is observed NOT to happen does not happen.
<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>Too many of the current batch of theories do describe a wee bit of nature, but also predict vast slews of phenomena that just don’t happen. Not good! This may have become fashionable in the last half-century or so. It
is certainly convenient for some theories as it means they cannot easily be toppled by pesky experiment which would otherwise wipe most of them out. People have become used to theory predicting lots of things that do not happen. This is not good enough for
proper progress. These theories cannot be used for engineering applications. One would predict lots of things to work that would not. We need precision and rigour. This is why I appreciate criticism so much. Thanks Chip! It helps us all get to the point.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"" lang="EN-US">The ultimate "reason" for the quantisation of the compete solution I have made up in the paper is exactly
the two conditions that energies should add AND that fields should add LINEARLY.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">
</span>This is what the new wave-functions do.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"" lang="EN-US">It feels that one should have freedom of thought (and one does!), but for thinking to parallel the
physical world it must be constrained, not by one thinks about nature, but by what one observes it to do. It must fit experiment. All of it. In other words to parallel nature it must fit the whole of your physical understanding - all at once. This is very
strongly constrained thinking. Worse- not all of us know all of experiment all at once (especially me!).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"" lang="EN-US">Coming back to another point you raise – you suggest, Chip, that I should possibly try going to<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">
</span>root two of c<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>and then I’ll get my numbers to fit. Now, if I just wanted to get the numbers to fit this might be an option. I cannot allow myself to do this though. Why? Because light travels at c. Experimentally.
This is not a floppy condition. It is not a parameter you can just vary with no consequence elsewhere. It is fun to think about it – but in doing so one moves away from the whole constraint of the whole of physics I talked about above. One goes out in a soft,
friendly, mushy area of thinking where all things are possible. One goes out in the world of untamed imagination. Great! There is plenty of room for that. I love fiction! Physics is now so complicated, however, that such thinking will rapidly move away from
that which is observed in very many areas. One is in a world without proper signposts or fixed points. This is a very similar world to the world of string, or the world of QCD where nothing is well-defined. One is already lost.
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"" lang="EN-US">Coming back to Richard’s point of the charged photon. Again one is going into the mushy – into the
mist. Give the photon an intrinsic charge. Why not? <span style="mso-spacerun:yes">
</span>The answer is, not only that charge is a divergence inconsistent with light-speed motion as I argued earlier, (not a problem if one has a floppy light velocity though – such photons would be, necessarily, not composed of field and be sub-light speed),
but that it is a mushy continuous charge thing. One should observe all sorts of charges. One does not. One sees charges only associated with “particles”. A charged photon should not close, but should repel itself. One causes far more problems with the conjecture
than one solves. The theory must not only explain what is observed, but also why other things are NOT observed.
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"" lang="EN-US">That comes to the other problem. There is no charged photon theory. No differential equations describing
its motion. It ends up just being a notion. A notion, effectively, of charged fields. Why not just make it a scalar charge? That is already complex enough. The theory for this was explored, for example, by Dirac himself in the fifties. It did not lead anywhere
(yet, at least).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"" lang="EN-US">Now coming back to Dirac and his (much earlier) linear relativistic theory. Dirac, in his relativistic
quantum mechanics, does indeed integrate his linear equation and derives a motion consisting of a quickly oscillating lightspeed part, the zitterbewegung and an overall motion characterised by the normal energy as a half m v squared part.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">
</span>Very beautiful. He does not get them separately – they are the first two terms in an expansion. Incidentally this also gets the de-Broglie wavelength right, with a doubled Compton frequency nota bene. The factor of two comes out. It is not put in a-priori.
This is what happens in a proper relativistic linear theory. So what is the problem, why do we not just pack up go home and go fishing?<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">
</span>Job done. Two reasons: firstly the zitterbewegung fluid in the Dirac model is not fields but some stuff with peculiar properties defined by the new theory: Spinors. These have the peculiar property that you must rotate through 720 degrees to get back
to where you started from. This is good in itself – and goes a long way to describing the fundamental difference between fermions and bosons. It is certainly a big element of the truth. Understanding these objects properly, however, has proved beyond the wit
of generations of physicists (if they are honest) – including Dirac himself and Feymann- both of whom were bright and brave enough to simply say so. Dirac does so, for example, in his own book, directly after deriving the base solutions. Good man. Others waffle
– or put the problem into simple two-valued groups such as SU(2). Stick it into simple maths and forget about it. Make it an inviolable starting point of further theory. Bit wimpy – but safe<a name="_GoBack"></a>! Moving spinors – even slowly moving spinors
start mixing with each other. They are not a relativistically invariant basis. Big problem!
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"" lang="EN-US">I think the base problem with the Dirac model is that it is still too simple – and I think that the
point where Dirac goes wrong is when he makes two different identifications with the same thing. This messes everything up and leads to, not only solutions, but also basic dynamical terms “being difficult to interpret because they are complex” - as Dirac says.
Where this comes from is that he has used, unwittingly, the same square root of minus one for two conceptually different things. Complex indeed, but not complex enough. And mixed up at that.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"" lang="EN-US">Coming back to a more advanced theory: one has to explain why and how charges arise in a pair-creation
process. To do this one has to understand field properly (at least as the six components of an antisymettric tensor – but tensor algebra does not go far enough (yet) either).
<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>One needs to get going with a proper field theory – not just with a loosely based model. If you are going to charge a photon this cannot be ad-hoc. Are you charging the electric field part or the magnetic field part, for
example. Are you adding a 4-vector (charge is the first component of the 4-current) to the six-vector? Just what is it, exactly, that you are proposing? How do you propose to modify the undelying theory to accommodate your conjecture?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"" lang="EN-US">For me, the charge comes about more from, as Chip and John D are arguing, from a topological re-configuration
of the field such that it is everywhere radial in a double looped configuration. The photon has field. The field is rectified by the twist and the turn. The confinement leads then to a confined object appearing to be (and actually being) charged.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"" lang="EN-US">The turn itself – essential to the re-configuration of the field, is engendered in my model not by
a charge, but by a dynamical scalar rest-mass term in conjunction with the electric component of the field. This is a seventh component in addition to the six components of the EM field. You may also see it as an element of energy. I agree with you partially
here, that this is fundamental stuff – but so is field and field is different. It is not a scalar.
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"" lang="EN-US">The resulting composite object is fermionic in that it a double-turn –a fundamental fermion. It is
charged in that it can inter-act and exchange energy. In isolation, it exhibits a radial electric field – as does a charge. Why would you need to complicate things by wanting the poor photon to be charged as well? You do not need it! How are you ever going
to calculate the charge from first principles when you put a random amount of it in to begin with? You are going to get the charge of the photon, plus or minus the charge engendered by the topology and the confinement. Why? I think at this point one is doubly
lost. One has had to give up the idea that EM propagates at lightspeed and one has also arbitrarily assigned a charge to an imagined “charged photon” – an object which is not observed in the real world. Further, one has lost the possibility of a theory to
work with as there is no theory of the charged photon with equations like the Maxwell equations, or the Schroedinger equation, or the Dirac equation. One is then triply lost.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"" lang="EN-US">Now, coming back to numbers, let us say that I did want Martin and my old model to get the charge exactly
right (for example). There is a simple way to do this without too much fuss and without varying the lightspeed or introducing a charge to the photon. Just allow the ratio of the minor to the major axes of the torus to vary. If zero – one gets the charge slightly
less than q. A bit more – hey presto- just right. More still … one can wind it up to about 20 times the charge observed. Why is this not a result? Why does this not fix the ratio of minor to major.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">
</span>Well – for example could vary all sorts of other things – why not flatten it slightly? Why not put it in a cubical box (this value is then damn close –less than a percent!). Why not stick a hole in it – like a spindle? Why not make it pear-shaped (this
is not as daft as it sounds and may end up being the answer!).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"" lang="EN-US">Yes – you can do anything in your mind. The problem is that process is futile unless one has a proper
theory, or some experiment which can distinguish these things. Now, clearly, I’m hoping that the new theory I propose may, ultimately, provide the answer. My second choice would be that the extension of the Bateman method, which Martin is pursuing, does the
trick. <span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>Maybe these will converge or merge with some other thinking in the group (even better!). Perhaps we will find some seminal experiment which fixes some aspect of it. Perhaps the experiment has already been done
and one or other of you know about it.<br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"" lang="EN-US">There is a lot of work between where I am now and there though, and perhaps not enough life and energy
left in me to pursue it as much as I would like, (squished as I am by a pile of exams – though the marking is now nearly finished). The work to come requires developing a canon of work similar to that produced by dozens of the greats in non-relativistic quantum
mechanics in the 1930’s – except the base equations are much more complicated than the simple Schroedinger equation. We have equations, but we need to find solutions to the equations.
<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>Plenty of work to do! <span style="mso-spacerun:yes">
</span>I’m hoping to convince a few folk with enough talent and energy to start getting stuck in to this programme. The process can, and probably will, throw up problems with the original conception and formulation. I agree here with Chip!<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">
</span>No problem! If it is wrong – modify it or throw it out and make up a new one. That is the proper application of the scientific method.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"" lang="EN-US">Anyway this has turned into too much of an opus. Though it was started in the morning it is now afternoon
and time for me to go and get on with some proper work. Marking awaits!</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"" lang="EN-US">Bye for now,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"" lang="EN-US">John W.</span></p>
<hr tabindex="-1">
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg"><font face="Tahoma" color="#000000" size="2"><b>From:</b> General [general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org] on behalf of Richard Gauthier [richgauthier@gmail.com]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, May 30, 2015 2:59 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Photon<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<div class="">John and Martin,</div>
<div class=""> Thanks for your encouragement. The electron is a photon going round and round in the case of a resting electron, otherwise it is a photon going round and round and forward in some kind of helical motion, in which case it is not a standing field
in this reference frame. Whether or not the charge of a charged photon moves at the speed of light depends on the particular model of the photon that one has. The relativistic charged-photon/electron model does not require a particular photon model.The charge
that is detected, like the electron mass that is detected, may be moving at sub-light speed. Mass is not more fundamental than energy, and is proposed to be composed of light-speed energy in the case of the electron.</div>
<div class=""> Richard</div>
<br class="">
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On May 30, 2015, at 5:03 AM, John Duffield <<a href="mailto:johnduffield@btconnect.com" class="" target="_blank">johnduffield@btconnect.com</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div class="WordSection1" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:12px; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; line-height:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px">
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
Can anyone clearly explain why a charged photon of spin 1/2 hbar and rest mass 0.511MeV/c^2 is not the missing link between the uncharged photon and the electron?</div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Yes, I can. The electron is a 511keV photon going round and round. It’s a charged particle<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">because</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>it’s
a photon going round and round. The photon moving linearly is a field variation, but when it’s going round and round, it’s a standing field. That’s why it has mass too. It’s like<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.researchgate.net/publication/273419950_Light_is_Heavy" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">the
photon In a box</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>. Only it’s a box of its own making. Light displaces its own path into a closed path, because light is displacement current. And it does what it says on the can. Because space waves. </span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Regards</span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">John D</span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">PS: Counter-rotating vortices repel,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><u class="">co</u>-rotating vortices attract, see<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.scribd.com/doc/68152826/On-Vortex-Particles-Fiasco-Press-Journal-of-Swarm-Scholarship#scribd" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">On
Vortex Particles</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>by David St John. They ain’t called spinors for nothing!<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
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<b class=""><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" lang="EN-US"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>General [<a href="mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" target="_blank">mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On
Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Mark, Martin van der<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>29 May 2015 23:47<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Photon</span></div>
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Richard, yes, thank you.</div>
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That is indeed a very good remark, you are probably very right.<br class="">
Let me think about it a bit more,</div>
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Best,</div>
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Martin<br class="">
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Verstuurd vanaf mijn iPhone</div>
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Op 29 mei 2015 om 21:45 heeft Richard Gauthier <<a href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">richgauthier@gmail.com</a>> het volgende geschreven:</p>
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Chip, John and Martin,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></div>
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I think you gentlemen are onto something. A photon has three related levels of quantization (E=hf, p=h/lambda and spin = hbar) — perhaps only the third is truly quantized in the sense of having a discrete value. An electron has two more levels of discrete
quantization (charge and rest mass) which may be closely related to its spin 1/2 hbar. The electron’s charge may be closely related to its spin hbar/2 in the case of the electron, but not the case of the neutrino). An electron gains further levels of discrete
quantization (its energy eigenvalues) by being bound in an atom. The more discrete quantum levels a quantum has, the more it is “bound” to a material condition. Can anyone clearly explain why a charged photon of spin 1/2 hbar and rest mass 0.511MeV/c^2 is
not the missing link between the uncharged photon and the electron?</div>
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Richard</div>
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On May 29, 2015, at 12:07 PM, Chip Akins <<a href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">chipakins@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>
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Hi Martin</div>
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With your experience and depth of understanding regarding photons, and the evidence, I am of course inclined to agree with you regarding the nature of photons.</div>
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Regarding: “<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">How and why that works the same for radio waves and gamma rays, is a mystery. Well this bit is my personal opinion, of course.</span>”<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></div>
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There is perhaps a difference between the interactions we observe when using longer wavelength radio waves as compared to the particle-sized gamma rays. The radio waves are a source of field influence which can cause electron drift, just as a DC field can
move electrons, but at the scale of the electron, or even the electron’s “orbit” in an atom, the frequency of the radio wave is far less “important” than the frequency of a gamma ray would be. The resonances of the particle would be less likely to be significantly
influenced by the radio wave, but the radio wave would still exert a force on the electron. Radio waves are generally detected by measuring the movement of electrons in conductive materials where the electrons in the materials are fairly easy to move. It seems
likely that it takes at least the motion of one electron in the transmitting antenna to induce any motion of an electron in a receiving antenna, assuming the same configuration of transmitter and receiver antennae. But the incident field on the receiving antenna
may not be an integral value of “photon energy”.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></div>
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Is this why you refer to a “continuum wave”? Because the absorber only uses what is can use of the available energy? So that a photon may actually contain more energy than is absorbed in an interaction?</div>
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Chip</div>
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<b class=""><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">General
[<a href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="color:purple">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a>]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On
Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Mark, Martin van der<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, May 29, 2015 12:42 PM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Photon</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Dear Chip,<br class="">
now you are really getting there for sure, those questions and statements are at the right level to begin with. But your kind of understanding certainly converges with my ideas.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">That me be good or bad, but I would judge it as good. ;-)</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">See for extra comments below…</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Cheers, Martin</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif; color:navy" lang="DE">Dr. Martin B. van der Mark</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif; color:navy">Principal Scientist, Minimally Invasive Healthcare</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif; color:navy">Philips Research Europe - Eindhoven</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif; color:navy">High Tech Campus, Building 34 (WB2.025)</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif; color:navy">Prof. Holstlaan 4</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif; color:navy">5656 AE Eindhoven, The Netherlands</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif; color:navy">Tel: +31 40 2747548</span></div>
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<b class=""><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">General
[</span><a href="mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif; color:purple">mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On
Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Chip Akins<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>vrijdag 29 mei 2015 15:45<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Photon</span></div>
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Thank you. One reason for asking the question and pursuing the thought process, was to try to further illustrate the lack of any explanation so far which supports the strict self-quantization of photons. This has been leading me to think that the source for
quantization is the spin ½ configuration of fermions. (Which would act as quantizers both while emitting and absorbing). If this is true then it means that, for a photon, E=hv only holds true because of the emitter and absorber.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">MvdM: This may be exactly right.</span></div>
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Regarding the uncertainty principle:</div>
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If we take a single point snapshot of a sinusoidal function we are very uncertain about its frequency, the more time we spend sampling the wave the more certain we become of its frequency. Now if we are using sinusoidal waves to create particles, many of the
properties of the particles will be uncertain with our measurements, because the measurements we can take disturb the system, and are only valid for brief times or spaces before the information is no longer valid, due to measurement. Because when we set up
a measurement, we create conditions where discrete waves and fields will interact, creating an energy exchange which occurs in a very finite timeframe, disturbing completely what we are measuring. This correlation to the uncertainty principle is one of the
reasons that I feel fields and waves are the best candidate for the fundamental makeup of particles. Fields and waves in these configurations naturally create an uncertainty in measurement which correlates exactly with the observed, understood, and measured
uncertainties. The hydrogen atom is such a nice tool for modeling and understanding these issues.</div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">MvdM: yes and this kind of uncertainty is given by what is called the Fourier limit amended with hbar</span></div>
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Of course the use of the word orbit to describe the electron’s state in an atom is too ambiguous to actually describe its state. The electron exists in a space surrounding the nucleus, and spins about it, but it’s more like the electron surrounds the nucleus
and less like an orbit.</div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">MvdM: true, and this is why detailed orbital calculations in a photon model for the electron are totally futile; only a real theory will tell.</span></div>
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So what I am getting to is that the different “spin modes” of the photon and the electron are significant. I think the photon has what we may call a symmetric field spin mode, where it spins about the point between the positive and negative field lines, making
it charge neutral. But the electron’s principal spin is a non-symmetrical field spin mode, with the point between the positive and negative fields displaced from the spin axis, giving it charge. Apparently this has other important effects as well. It seems
this spin mode allows the electron to be quantized based on energy density, unlike the photon.</div>
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The underlying reason I am asking these questions is related to the formulation for field equations. There seems to be a difference between the behavior of the fields in the photon and the quantization behavior of the fields in fermions. The spin configuration
seems to be the cause for the forces which create quantization.</div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">MvdM: Yes and the reason is that the electron needs binding forces and nonlinearity, the “free” photon doesn’t</span></div>
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But back to the photon: Since the photon cannot be quantized by its internal energy density, does it spin due to the spin angular momentum imparted by the emitter? Is the photon actually not internally quantized at all? That is to say, is there no inherent
mechanism within the photon itself which imposed a specific quantization? Is the relationship E=hv imposed only at the emission or absorption? And therefore can we create photons without spin? Or can we create photons where E=hv is not true? And are photons
really particles at all, or are they just waves, which seem like particles because of their interaction with the quantization of emitters and absorbers.</div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">MvdM: Good questions, I go for waves. The photon is merely a quantum of energy that is taken up by the absorber from a continuum wave. It is not a particle by it self,
and doen’t need to have the machinery on-board to keep itself together or be quantized or what. It is just a Maxwell wave. But this Maxwell wave can only be emitted and absorbed according to the rules of (boundary conditions imposed by) emitter and absorber.
How and why that works the same for radio waves and gamma rays, is a mystery. Well this bit is my personal opinion, of course.</span></div>
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While we could view many of the question as rhetorical it seems that we may need to understand and answer them as literal. Chandra, Martin, All?</div>
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Chip</div>
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<b class=""><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">General
[</span><a href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:purple">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On
Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>John Williamson<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday, May 28, 2015 4:29 PM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Photon</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">Hi Chip and everyone,<br class="">
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Good thought but no- quantisation cannot be dependent on energy density. This is what experiment tells you - and is the beauty of experiment. Experimentally photons can have any wave-train length. The photon energy, however, is related to its frequency alone.
Photons from a source have a well-defined energy only if they are pretty long (this is a consequence of the uncertainty principle). There are lots of people in the group (Martin and Chandra for two) - who know lots more about this than I do and some who perform
experiments interfering, stretching and bending light.<br class="">
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Any proper theory needs to describe experiment - all of it - not just the bits we may happen to know about!<br class="">
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Regards, John</span></p>
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<b class=""><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">General
[<a href="mailto:general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="color:purple">general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a>]
on behalf of Chip Akins [<a href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="color:purple">chipakins@gmail.com</span></a>]<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Monday, May 25, 2015 4:51 PM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Photon</span></p>
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Hi John W and All</div>
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While looking at quantization which may be caused by a twist term included with Maxwell’s equations, at least one puzzle remains unanswered for me. The nature of photons is still a bit difficult to understand. It is much easier to envision a photon of a single
wavelength than a photon which is many wavelengths. If energy density is the cause for quantization (spin and frequency) it is more difficult to see how that can be so, if a photon may have an arbitrary number of cycles, but have its energy density spread
out over all cycles. What do you think the likelihood is that not only frequency but also the number of cycles in a photon is quantized? If this is the case then we could still understand how the correct spin would result from energy density for each cycle.
But then we would have to also address the energy density to twist relationship for single wavelength structures like the electron models we have been creating.???</div>
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It seems evident that quantization for frequency is dependent upon energy, and I assumed it was therefore due to energy density. Which works nicely for single wavelength photons. Experiment seems to indicate that we can create photons, using various methods,
which have an arbitrary number of wavelengths. How can we physically correlate this to photon frequency quantization, when the energy density of the photon has been spread out over many cycles? Is there some apparently “non-local” mechanism which couples the
energy of all cycles in a single photon, and therefore helps to retain the E=hv relationship?</div>
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Thoughts?</div>
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Chip</div>
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<b class=""><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">General
[</span><a href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:purple">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On
Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>John Williamson<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Sunday, May 24, 2015 10:46 PM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Electron Torus</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">Hello,<br class="">
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Briefly - yes pi mesons are real particles. They leave nice long traces in cloud or bubble chambers. The rho is equally real.<br class="">
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Gluons have never been observed directly. The W and Z are sufficiently short-lived that they are observed as so-called resonances.<br class="">
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Regards, John.</span></div>
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<b class=""><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">General
[<a href="mailto:general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="color:purple">general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a>]
on behalf of Richard Gauthier [<a href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="color:purple">richgauthier@gmail.com</span></a>]<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Sunday, May 24, 2015 11:21 PM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Electron Torus</span></p>
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John D,<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></div>
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And according to <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particle" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="color:purple">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particle</span></a> , the pi meson
and rho meson are virtual particles for proton-neutron attraction in nuclei, as are the W and Z bosons for the weak nuclear force. Are gluons, pi mesons and W and Z particles ever real?</div>
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On May 24, 2015, at 8:58 AM, John Duffield <<a href="mailto:johnduffield@btconnect.com" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="color:purple">johnduffield@btconnect.com</span></a>> wrote:</div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">See the<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluon#Confinement" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:purple">Wikipedia
gluon article</span></a><span class="" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">, note the bit that says<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><i class=""><span class="" lang="EN">as opposed to virtual ones found in ordinary hadrons.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></i><span class="" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" lang="EN">The
gluons in a proton are virtual. As in not real. And LOL, perhaps the same is true of the quarks!<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" lang="EN">Regards</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" lang="EN">John D<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
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<b class=""><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">General
[</span><a href="mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:purple">mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On
Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Richard Gauthier<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>24 May 2015 16:12<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Electron Torus</span></div>
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Chip, Martin, John D and others,</div>
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I suspect that the fundamental quantities of both spacetime and particles/fields are frequency (directly proportional to the energy of a particle and inversely proportional to time) and wavelength (inversely proportional to the momentum of a particle and
directly proportional to space). Spin is related to energy-momentum topology. Electric charge seems related to topology. Particles with rest mass are composed of charged photons and related speed-of-light particles like charged gluons (normal gluons are electrically
uncharged but have color charge while quarks have both electrical charge and color charge.) And I suspect that the energy quantum (composing both speed-of-light particles and rest-mass particles) is the unifying link between spacetime and particles/fields
(and therefore quantum mechanics/QED/QCD/quantum gravity) and may be the precursor as well as the sustainer of both.</div>
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Richard</div>
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On May 24, 2015, at 7:06 AM, Mark, Martin van der <<a href="mailto:martin.van.der.mark@philips.com" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="color:purple">martin.van.der.mark@philips.com</span></a>> wrote:</div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:9pt; font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">I fully agree with your reply to Chip, thanks for the details!</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:9pt; font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">Please join us at the bar;-)</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:9pt; font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">Cheers three!</span></div>
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Verstuurd vanaf mijn iPhone</span></div>
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Op 24 mei 2015 om 15:56 heeft John Duffield <</span><a href="mailto:johnduffield@btconnect.com" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:9pt; font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif; color:purple">johnduffield@btconnect.com</span></a><span class="" style="font-size:9pt; font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">>
het volgende geschreven:</span></p>
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As all of you know, after Relativity was introduced and adopted, the popular belief for a while, was that space was empty, and that a media of space was not required. Now however it seems that most physicists have accepted that space is a media, with quantum
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">That popular belief was a cargo-cult false belief, because Einstein made it clear in his 1920 Leyden Address that space was the “aether” of general relativity. He made
it clear that space was not some emptiness, but instead was a thing that is “conditioned” by a massive body such as a star.</span></div>
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If space is a media, what would we perceive which is different from space being empty?</div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">That popular belief was a cargo-cult belief, because Einstein made it clear in his 1920 </span><a href="http://einsteinpapers.press.princeton.edu/vol7-trans/192?highlightText=%22neither%20homogeneous%22" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:purple">Leyden
Address</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">that
space was the “aether” of general relativity, and space was not empty.</span></div>
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Some would say there is no perceptible difference. But is that precisely true?</div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">No. Like Einstein said in<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a href="http://www.rain.org/~karpeles/einsteindis.html" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:purple">1929</span></a><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">,
a field is a state of space.</span></div>
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If space is a media, it implies a preferred reference frame in space. This is an item which would be difficult, or perhaps impossible to detect, but for one item. If space is a media with a preferred reference frame, then clocks in that reference frame would
be the fastest clocks possible in the universe. </div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">There’s also the<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_microwave_background#CMBR_dipole_anisotropy" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:purple">CMB
reference frame</span></a><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">. It’s preferred in that it tells you your speed through the universe. And whilst it isn’t an absolute frame in the strict sense, the universe
is as absolute as it gets.</span></div>
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One thing which would alter the ability to test this is a gross frame dragging of space around massive bodies or concentrations of mass.</div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">See<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a href="http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/newsandevents/pressreleases/galaxy_sized_twist/" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:purple">the
asymmetric Kerr metric as a source of CP violation</span></a><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">. It’s to do with galactic frame-dragging.</span></div>
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If space is a media, and if frame dragging does occur</div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">It’s a popscience myth that it isn’t a medium, electromagnetic waves do not propagate because an electric wave creates a magnetic wave and vice versa. I’m confident
that frame dragging does occur, and that the electron electromagnetic field is a fierce example of it.</span></div>
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<b class="">A definition of TIME is the underlying objective of this line of questions.</b> For I see two possibilities, one is that time is an inherent property of space and, as the current relativity teaches, a fourth dimension in our “spacetime”. The other
is that time is simply the rate at which particles can interact, caused by the fact that fields can only propagate at a finite velocity, and that we are made of particles which are circularly confined fields.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></div>
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I feel the first explanation is less likely because it does not show cause, it does not tell us why time is part of space, just that it is. The second explanation is the one I currently prefer because it is a simple consequence of the nature of space and particles,
it shows cause.</div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">I prefer it too, and so did Einstein. See<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a href="http://www.physicsdiscussionforum.org/time-explained-t3.html" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:purple">Time
Explained</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">and<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/World-without-Time-Forgotten-Einstein/dp/0465092942" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:purple">A
World Without Time: the forgotten legacy of Godel and Einstein</span></a><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
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Is time truly a fourth dimension at the lowest level of analysis of space?</div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">No. We live in a world of space and motion. Our time dimension is derived from motion. It’s a dimension in the sense of measure, not in the sense of freedom of motion.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Regards</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">John D</span></div>
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<b class=""><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">General
[</span><a href="mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:purple">mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On
Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Chip Akins<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>24 May 2015 14:24<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Electron Torus</span></div>
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Hi All</div>
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We are working on the foundations of physics. Studying and trying to decipher the result of experiment in a causal manner.</div>
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As we do that it keeps bringing me back to the nature of space itself. John M has made some good points about starting from the makeup of space and working our way up from there. John D has communicated a solid and basic approach to many of the issues. Many
of us have proposed models, field formulations, and a host of other possible explanations for what we observe.</div>
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As we reflect on what we have done and what we still need to do, there are some things which may still need to be addressed and answered before we can make progress in certain areas.</div>
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For example, the nature of space and time, are fundamental to understanding physics. Some of us feel we have a reasonable handle on this, and it is a very basic part of what we are doing, but I am thinking that we do not yet have it quite right. For the endeavor
we have undertaken, I think close is not good enough.</div>
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First I want to state clearly that I do not yet propose to have the answers to the nature of space, all I have is conjecture so far.</div>
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As all of you know, after Relativity was introduced and adopted, the popular belief for a while, was that space was empty, and that a media of space was not required. Now however it seems that most physicists have accepted that space is a media, with quantum
attributes, and some level of energy density. </div>
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However many of the subtle suggestions engendered during that time when it was perceived that space was empty, and much of the “foundation” of relativity is still based on there being no media which constitutes space.</div>
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If space is a media, what would we perceive which is different from space being empty? Some would say there is no perceptible difference. But is that precisely true?</div>
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If space is a media, it implies a preferred reference frame in space. This is an item which would be difficult, or perhaps impossible to detect, but for one item.</div>
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If space is a media with a preferred reference frame, then clocks in that reference frame would be the fastest clocks possible in the universe. All clocks in all other inertial frames would be slower. One thing which would alter the ability to test this is
a gross frame dragging of space around massive bodies or concentrations of mass.</div>
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It seems that relativity has been tested with regards to the slowing of clocks with relative velocity to a precision of about 1.6% to 10% depending on which experiments you prefer. But of course these tests are at low relative velocities and only represent
a narrow prat of the spectrum of tests which would be required to absolutely validate the entire curve. And an error of 1.6% is still a substantial error for this type of validation.</div>
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If space is a media, and if frame dragging does occur, again it would be difficult to verify the existence of the media using clocks, depending on how much frame dragging there is. If space is a media, how can we calculate the frame dragging and quantify it?</div>
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<b class="">A definition of TIME is the underlying objective of this line of questions.</b> For I see two possibilities, one is that time is an inherent property of space and, as the current relativity teaches, a fourth dimension in our “spacetime”. The other
is that time is simply the rate at which particles can interact, caused by the fact that fields can only propagate at a finite velocity, and that we are made of particles which are circularly confined fields.</div>
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I feel the first explanation is less likely because it does not show cause, it does not tell us why time is part of space, just that it is. The second explanation is the one I currently prefer because it is a simple consequence of the nature of space and particles,
it shows cause.</div>
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One thing I think we must remember as we construct a physical model is that we are dealing with the fundamentals and foundations, the building blocks so to speak, and in that endeavor we will probably find instances where a phenomenon like the definition of
time, or the definition of charge, or the definition of spin, is not the same at the micro level as it is at our macro observable level. If we do our job well we will discover the causes and sources of many of these types of phenomena. At levels below the
causal level for any of these phenomena, the macro rules no longer apply in full.</div>
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After saying that, a question would naturally arise, if time as we measure it is merely the result of the interaction of particles, how and when do we incorporate the dimension of time in our calculations? Is the development of time at such a low level that
we should include it in all calculations, just as relativity teaches? Or does time come into play only at the particle level, and the finite velocity of light predominates at lower levels? Is time truly a fourth dimension at the lowest level of analysis of
space? Or does it just appear to be that way from our perspectives due to the nature of our particulate construction and measurements?</div>
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Any and all opinion and argument is eagerly appreciated. If you could please let me know your take on this and the reasons you feel that way I will be grateful.</div>
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Chip</div>
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<b class=""><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">General
[</span><a href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:purple">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On
Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>John Williamson<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, May 22, 2015 8:02 AM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Electron Torus</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">Hello Chip,<br class="">
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Have been meaning to say for some time: you are producing some beautiful models.<br class="">
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Regards. John (W)</span></p>
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<b class=""><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">General
[</span><a href="mailto:general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif; color:purple">general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">]
on behalf of Chip Akins [</span><a href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif; color:purple">chipakins@gmail.com</span></a><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">]<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, May 22, 2015 1:59 PM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'<br class="">
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Hi Richard</div>
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Sorry I was modeling what I though was the spin 1 photon model of the electron.</div>
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This is what I perceive to be your spin ½ photon model of the electron to be with velocity. Same velocity steps as before.</div>
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Nested set of models,</div>
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<image001.png></div>
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Slow trajectory lines, purple, faster trajectory lines tending toward green.</div>
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Here is the code for the electron’s reference frame for the above graphic:</div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:'Courier New'">X(ii)=Roc*(1/y^2+(1/y)*cosd(y*c*(t)/Roc))*cosd(y*c*(t)/Roc);</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:'Courier New'">Y(ii)=Roc*(1/y^2+(1/y)*cosd(y*c*(t)/Roc))*sind(y*c*(t)/Roc);</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:'Courier New'">Z(ii)=(Roc/y)*sind(y*c*(t)/Roc);</span></div>
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Note: there is still a very small electron model (with velocity 0.9988c) at the center of this graphic. In this model the contraction is in all directions, not just longitudinally. I think this is correct, but it does not agree with some interpretations of
relativity. It is also difficult to see how this model, without spiral fields, would look the same to a moving observer when the electron is “at rest”. </div>
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And the model is of course not really spherical.</div>
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Does this match your results?</div>
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Can you share the graphics model you have done?</div>
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Chip</div>
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<b class=""><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">General
[</span><a href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:purple">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On
Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Richard Gauthier<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, May 22, 2015 7:31 AM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Electron Torus</span></div>
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John D., Chip and Andrew,</div>
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Isn’t it the case that in standard physics (experimentally confirmed) the measured spin of an electron is relative to the motion of the observer of the electron, just as the observed momentum of an electron is relative to the motion of the observer of the
electron? If an observer moving west to east with a relativistic velocity v1 passes a “stationary” electron (in some reference frame) , the electron has an observed momentum (when it measured) going west, and a spin either up or down (when it is measured)
in the east-west direction and a de Broglie wavelength corresponding to the relative velocity v1, while when an observer moving relativistically south to north with velocity v2 passes a “stationary" electron , the electron has an observed momentum (when it
is measured) going south, a spin that is up or down (when it is measured) in the north-south direction, and a de Broglie wavelength corresponding to its relative velocity v2. (In QM, velocity, spin and de Broglie wavelength probably can’t all be measured
at the same time). </div>
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The relativistic energy-momentum equation for the electron E^2 = p^2 c^2 + m^2 c^4 applies to the electron described above when observed by two observers with two different relativistic velocities compared to the electron. I showed in my article “the electron
is a charged photon with the de Broglie wavelength” that the same relativistic energy-momentum equation applies to a helically moving double-looping photon that may compose an electron, where E is the energy of the photon (the same as the total energy of the
electron composed by the photon), p is the longitudinal momentum of the helically moving photon (the same as the momentum p of the electron being modeled), E/c is the total momentum of the photon along its helical path, and mc is the transverse momentum of
the helically moving photon, which contributes to the electron’s spin up or spin down value hbar/2 in the case of a slow moving electron (modeled by the double-looping photon). So every electron observed to have a momentum p will in this view also have a spin
hbar/2 up or down in the direction of its momentum. </div>
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Also, when a photon is Doppler shifted-due to relative motion of the light source away from or towards the observer, the observed wavelength of the photon is lengthened or shortened accordingly. Doesn’t this imply that the length of the whole photon (if it
consists of a certain number of wavelengths) is also lengthened or shortened accordingly?</div>
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Richard</div>
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On May 22, 2015, at 12:06 AM, John Duffield <<a href="mailto:johnduffield@btconnect.com" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="color:purple">johnduffield@btconnect.com</span></a>> wrote:</div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">David:</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Why don’t photons get length contracted? Because they’re just waves in space moving at the speed of waves in space. A ripple in a rubber mat doesn’t get length contracted,
nor do waves in space. Then when you make those waves go round and round, they still don’t get length-contracted. Then when you move past them fast, they still don’t get length contracted. You might say the path of those waves is different, but it isn’t, they
didn’t change, you did. And if you boil yourself down to a single electron, and boil that down to a ring, then draw circles and helixes, I think it gets to the bottom of things.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Yes, I’m certain relative velocity is a determining factor. But note that “we” are made of electrons and things, so IMHO it’s best to start with two particles, such
as the electron and the positron. If you set them down with no initial relative motion they move linearly together, and we talk of electric force. </span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">However if you threw the postiron over the top of the electron they’d move together and go around one another, whereupon we talk of magnetic force. Note that this is
relative velocity, not relativistic velocity. I’ve seen people<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a href="http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/65335/how-do-moving-charges-produce-magnetic-fields" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:purple">explain
the magnetic field around the current-in-the-wire using length contraction</span></a><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">, but IMHO that’s a fairy tale, and I prefer a<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a href="http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/184055/atomic-explanation-of-magnetic-field/184079?noredirect=1#comment388570_184079" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:purple">“screw”
answer</span></a><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">. </span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">John D</span></div>
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<b class=""><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">General
[</span><a href="mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:purple">mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On
Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Chip Akins<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>21 May 2015 21:39<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Electron Torus</span></div>
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Hi John D</div>
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Regarding…</div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Sorry, I don’t think that can be right because you could go past an electron at .9988c.</span></div>
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Yes, I am coming to think that maybe the spiral fields caused by limited field propagation velocity, might play a larger role than I had first considered.</div>
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I think Martin was onto this aspect already.</div>
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Wondering if relative velocity is a factor in determining what portion of the spiral field we detect or interact with? And if so, how that might work.</div>
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The earlier electron model graphics are created from the math that Richard developed for his spin ½ electron.</div>
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<b class=""><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">General
[</span><a href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:purple">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On
Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>John Duffield<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday, May 21, 2015 3:15 PM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Electron Torus</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Sorry, I don’t think that can be right because you could go past an electron at .9988c.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Andrew:</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Photons don’t get length contracted, and electrons are made out of photons in pair production. If you simplify the electron to a photon going round in a circle, then
take one point on the circumference, you would say it describes a circular path. But when you move past the electron fast, you would say that point was describing a helical path. Then when you consider all points of the circumference, you might say the electron
was a cylinder rather than a circle. And if you<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">were</i><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>that electron, everything to you would look length-contracted, because you’re smeared out. If I was a
motionless electron you’d say I was length contracted. But I might say<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">I<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></i>was the one moving, and that<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">you’re</i><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>length-contracted.
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Regards</span></div>
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<b class=""><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">General
[</span><a href="mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:purple">mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On
Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Chip Akins<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>21 May 2015 17:52<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Electron Torus</span></div>
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Hi Andrew</div>
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Images from the electron’s reference frame.</div>
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For Richard’s model using the spin 1 photon, and drawing in the electron’s reference frame, his math produces the following image for a set of nested electron models with velocities up to 0.9988c.</div>
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The small grey sphere in the center is the electron model for 0.9988c.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></div>
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So in this model the electron shrinks in all directions, but remains principally spherical when viewed from the electron’s reference frame.</div>
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<b class=""><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">General
[</span><a href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:purple">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On
Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Andrew Meulenberg<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday, May 21, 2015 11:15 AM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion; Andrew Meulenberg<br class="">
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Dear Chip,</p>
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I learn something new every time. However, it may not be true.</p>
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If I interpret your images properly, the fastest electrons are the longest. However, relativistic shortening should shrink the length. I had expected the electron to 'pancake' in the direction of motion. You show the opposite. Is the pancake only in the electron's
frame and the appearance from our frame is one of an extended structure? If both, do they cancel and, in reality, it is still spherical?</p>
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On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 7:36 PM, Chip Akins <<a href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="color:purple">chipakins@gmail.com</span></a>> wrote:</div>
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Hi Richard</div>
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So it is a bit more difficult to visualize exactly what is going on from the graphics with velocity.</div>
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We increase the velocity is in steps from<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">zero through 0.9988c.</b></div>
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>From the Z axis the illustration looks like:</div>
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Showing the reduced radius with velocity.</div>
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But when we look at the model slightly off axis (Z axis) we see this:</div>
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So this is a set of nested electron models with different velocities, each starting from the same point (upper right of the illustration). These are drawn from an external observers frame and are not shown in the electron’s reference frame.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></div>
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In the electron’s reference frame we would see closure to the trajectory, but in this reference frame, the trajectory (since it is moving) is not closed.</div>
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<b class=""><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">General
[mailto:</span><a href="mailto:general-bounces%2Bchipakins" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:purple">general-bounces+chipakins</span></a><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=</span><a href="mailto:gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:purple">gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On
Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Richard Gauthier<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday, May 21, 2015 6:29 AM</span></div>
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<b class="">To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Electron Torus</div>
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Chip,</div>
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Please correct a couple of typos in my last email. The TEQ (transluminal energy quantum) moves on the surface of a torus, not a helix. Also the first helical radius mentioned should have been Ro sqrt(2) = 1.414 Ro , not Ro sqrt(2)/2 = 1.414 Ro since sort(2)/2
= 0.707 not 1.414 . Thanks.</div>
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Richard</div>
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On May 20, 2015, at 6:42 PM, Richard Gauthier <<a href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="color:purple">richgauthier@gmail.com</span></a>> wrote:</div>
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Chip,</div>
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Nice graphics!</div>
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Shouldn’t the electric field lines of an electron at some distance from the electron model be pointing inward linearly towards the electron from infinity on all sides, since the electron's electric field (due to its electric charge) falls off as 1/r^2 .
I don’t understand why the electric field lines appear closed in your diagrams.</div>
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In my original resting electron model the TEQ was a circulating negative electric charge which circulated on the surface of a helix. I called the circulating TEQ a photon-like object since it was similar to my TEQ model of a photon. I was assuming at that
time that the photon in my resting electron model had spin 1, even though I had adjusted the helical radius so that the circulating TEQ generated the magnetic moment of the electron of 1 Bohr magneton, requiring a helical radius for the TEQ of Ro sqrt(2)/2
= 1.414 Ro which created the spindle torus in my model . So this was actually neither a spin 1 photon (whose radius for a resting electron would have been 2Ro, or a spin 1/2 photon, whose radius for a resting electron would be Ro, as in the 3D models that
you and I generated from the moving electron equations I proposed. Since I currently prefer the model of an electron composed of a spin 1/2 circulating photon, this doesn’t generate the electron’s magnetic moment of 1 Bohr magneton. But it generates a magnetic
moment more than 1/2 Bohr magneton which would be produced by a charge circulating at light speed in a simple double loop of radius Ro. I haven’t done the calculation for the magnetic moment generated by my spin 1/2 photon model of the electron, but I suspect
that it would be 0.707 Bohr magneton (just a guess at this point). The calculation of this magnetic moment from the TEQ trajectory equations for a charged TEQ in the spin 1/2 photon model is relatively straightforward though.</div>
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By the way, have you looked at the side view of the actual TEQ trajectory at various values of v/c of the electron in the spin 1/2 photon moving-electron model that I proposed (and that you programmed and graphed in 3D to show how the model size changes
as 1/gamma at various values of v/c)? The side view of the TEQ trajectory for a moving electron contains some surprises, at least for me. I thought that at high values of v/c (say 0.99 or 0.999) the TEQ would just appear from the side view to rotate helically
around its reducing and increasingly more linear helical trajectory (whose trajectory reduces as 1/(gamma^2), with the TEQ’s helical radius reducing as 1/gamma. But that’s apparently not what happens. Could you check this with your 3D program? </div>
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On May 19, 2015, at 8:45 AM, Chip Akins <<a href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="color:purple">chipakins@gmail.com</span></a>> wrote:</div>
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Hi Richard</div>
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If your spin 1 photon model of the electron is similar to John W and Martin’s model in that the field lines always orient with the negative end outwards (providing for charge) the estimated field distribution is similar to this illustration. (Equatorial View)</div>
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(Top View from Z axis)</div>
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(45 degree elevation view)</div>
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Red lines represent negative ends of field lines, Blue lines represent positive, black is the transport radius, faint green line is one circulation at the transport radius.</div>
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Photon field amplitude is shown as a cosine function of wavelength/2.</div>
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<b class=""><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> General [</span><a href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:purple">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">] <b class="">On
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<b class="">To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b> Re: [General] Electron Torus</span></div>
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Chip,</div>
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Perfect! It would also be good to have the pair of tori seen an an angle from above their ‘equator’ to get a more 3-D quality.</div>
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On May 5, 2015, at 6:07 AM, Chip Akins <<a href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="color:purple">chipakins@gmail.com</span></a>> wrote:</div>
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Hi Richard</div>
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How do these look?</div>
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<b class=""><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> General [</span><a href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:purple">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">] <b class="">On
Behalf Of </b>Richard Gauthier<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b> Monday, May 04, 2015 1:18 PM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b> Re: [General] Electron Torus</span></div>
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Hi Chip,</div>
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The radius of the circle in the horn torus (spin 1/2 photon model) should visually be (since it is actually) 1/2 of the radius of the circle in the spindle torus (spin 1 photon model) -- the spin 1/2 photon model is smaller than the spin 1 photon model. Thanks!
And could you perhaps show the energy quantum trajectory in a different color that the torus background so the trajectory stands out better?</div>
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On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 10:42 AM, Chip Akins <<a href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="color:purple">chipakins@gmail.com</span></a>> wrote:</div>
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Hi Richard</div>
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<b class=""><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> General [mailto:</span><a href="mailto:general-bounces%2Bchipakins" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:purple">general-bounces+chipakins</span></a><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=</span><a href="mailto:gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:purple">gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">] <b class="">On
Behalf Of </b>Richard Gauthier<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b> Monday, May 04, 2015 12:19 PM<br class="">
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<b class="">Subject:</b> Re: [General] Electron Torus</span></div>
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Hi Chip,</div>
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Thanks. And finally, the vertical ovals of the tori should be circles because the circulating quantum has the same radius in the vertical and horizontal directions.</div>
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On May 4, 2015, at 9:32 AM, Chip Akins <<a href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="color:purple">chipakins@gmail.com</span></a>> wrote:</div>
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Thank you.</div>
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Here you go:</div>
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<b class=""><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> General [</span><a href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:purple">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">] <b class="">On
Behalf Of </b>Richard Gauthier<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b> Monday, May 04, 2015 10:43 AM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b> Re: [General] Electron Torus</span></div>
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Hi Chip,</div>
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Both tori should be symmetrical above and below the z-axis and center on z=0.</div>
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Richard</div>
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On May 4, 2015, at 8:16 AM, Chip Akins <<a href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="color:purple">chipakins@gmail.com</span></a>> wrote:</div>
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Hi Richard</div>
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Viewed from the Z axis:</div>
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And from the equatorial plane:</div>
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<b class=""><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> General [</span><a href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(149,79,114)">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">] <b class="">On
Behalf Of </b>Richard Gauthier<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b> Sunday, May 03, 2015 11:07 PM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b> Re: [General] position</span></div>
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Chip and all,</div>
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Here are some equations that relate to the modeling of a circulating photon as an electron. The second and third set include my own model of the photon. The first set doesn’t require a particular model for the photon, except as mentioned below. The first
model is the one that generates the de Broglie wavelength as explained in my article mentioned below.</div>
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1. Here is the set of parametric equations for the helical trajectory of double-looping photon that models a free electron, and whose circular radius for a resting electron is Ro=hbar/2mc. The speed of the photon along this trajectory is always c. The longitudinal
or z-component of the photon’s speed is the electron’s velocity v along the z-axis. The frequency of the photon around the helical axis is proportional to the circulating photon/electron's energy E=gamma mc^2. The distance of the photon’s helical trajectory
from the z-axis for an electron whose speed is v, is proportional to 1/gamma^2. This equation is in my article “The electron is a charged photon with the de Broglie wavelength”. This equation does not include a particular model of the photon, but assumes that
the photon follows the relations c=f lambda, E=hf and p=h/lambda. Both helicities of the helical trajectory are given.</div>
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