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<div style="direction: ltr;font-family: Tahoma;color: #000000;font-size: 10pt;">Dear all,<br>
<br>
I have the feeling that you are getting mixed up with splitting things into other things as though this means something. Martin is right. Light remains light. A photon goes from emitter to absorber --- boom. If light is in a box it remains light. It continues,
in flight to be rest-massless. It is the whole system that exhibits the PROPERTIES of a rest mass, by virtue of the confinement.
<br>
<br>
The rest-mass is DEFINED as the square root of the 4-momentum squared (in proper units). For any particle this is just what you get by looking at it at rest. This is a Lorentz invariant quantity. For a particle some of this may be rest-mass mass, some confined
field, some the confinement mechanism itself (whatever that is). It all appears on the weighing scale.<br>
<br>
In QED this value, for the virtual photons responsible for electromagnetic attraction or repulsion may be positive (repulsion) or negative (attraction). Yes, negative mass! This does not mean there is an actual little lump of negative mass that has just come
about. You need to consider the whole process not keep trying to split it into bits like lego. The value is defined by the properties of the light AND the box. For virtual particle exchange attraction one can also see it as field cancellation. That is the
negative bit. It isn't magic. Just because you can write down an equation for mass does not make it appear as a bit of mass with a label "mass" on it!<br>
<br>
Indeed, as light slows in a crystal there is an energy associated with the photon, but equally with the (partial) confinement of it by the crystal. It makes no sense to ascribe this wholly to the one or the other. If the light circulates with total internal
reflection you could weigh it on a scale. If it was a short laser pulse the crystal would jump up and down as it went round and round - in principle you could measure this too.<br>
<br>
It is just confusing yourself to insist on things becoming other things, with other properties. Analogies are nice, but not if they confuse you. A zig-zagging photon, free to escape up or down, is confined slightly differently to a wholly confined one. This
is due to the properties of the confinement- not the properties of the photon. If its wholly confined - and smooth you will weigh the whole photon energy as rest mass, even though the photon is not itself rest-massive.<br>
<br>
Regards, John W.<br>
<div style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #000000; font-size: 16px">
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<div style="direction: ltr;" id="divRpF223806"><font face="Tahoma" color="#000000" size="2"><b>From:</b> General [general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org] on behalf of Mark, Martin van der [martin.van.der.mark@philips.com]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 01, 2015 1:06 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Photon<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<div>Richard, the photon itself, or light, never has a rest mass, it is going at light speed, that is what light does. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The box plus photon does have a rest mass, equal to the mass of the box plus the energy of the photon devided by c squared.</div>
<div>You have to be precise with these things!!!!</div>
<div>Just read light is heavy of you want to know hoe reflections work,</div>
<div>Best, Martin<br>
<br>
Verstuurd vanaf mijn iPhone</div>
<div><br>
Op 1 jun. 2015 om 01:56 heeft Richard Gauthier <<a href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" target="_blank">richgauthier@gmail.com</a>> het volgende geschreven:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div class="">John W, John D, and Martin and others,</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I agree with John D here: ( "<font class="" face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#220795"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt">But check out photon effective mass. If you slow down a photon to less than c, some of its energy-momentum is exhibited
as mass. And there’s a sliding scale in between the two extremes.</span><span class="" style="font-size:15px">”</span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt"> )</span></font> If a photon of energy E has an extended straight trajectory, it has no rest mass. If
a photon of energy E is reflecting back and forth perpendicularly in a mirror-box between parallel mirrors, it has a rest mass E/c^2. If a photon of energy E=mc^2=hf is circling in a closed circular loop or double-loop (as in various models of an electron)
it has rest mass m= E/c^2 = 0.511 MeV/c^2 . I think we all agree on this. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Now suppose a photon is zig-zagging between two parallel mirrors where at each reflection the angle that the photon makes with a mirror's surface is Theta. Then the photon has a longitudinal average velocity between the parallel mirrors of v
= c cos (Theta), or cos (Theta) = v/c . Theta = 90 degrees corresponds to a photon reflecting perpendicularly in a mirror-box where the photon's rest mass m is E/c^2, and v=0. Theta = 0 degrees corresponds to a photon traveling in an extended straight trajectory
parallel to the two mirrors in some direction, and in this case the photon's rest mass m is zero, and v=c . I found this morning that for any Theta between 0 and 90 degrees, a zig-zag reflecting photon of energy E=hf and angle Theta has a rest mass of M=
(E/c^2) sin (Theta)= E/(gamma c^2) since when cos(Theta)=v/c, then sin (Theta) = 1/gamma. This relationship is the case for relativistic velocities also. So for example for a zig-zagging photon of energy E=hf, if Theta = 30 degrees, then v/c = cos(Theta)=
0.866, sin(Theta) = 0.5 and gamma = 2 . The rest mass M of this zig-zagging photon of energy E=hf is then M = E/(gamma c^2) = hf/(2 c^2) = 0.5 hf/c^2 . </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">This M=(E/c^2) sin(Theta) relationship for a zig-zagging photon also applies to the helically circulating (with helical angle Theta) charged photon model of the relativistic electron, where the circulating charged photon of energy E=hf=gamma m
c^2 is always found with this method to have a rest mass of M = (E/c^2) sin (Theta) = (gamma m c^2)/(gamma c^2) = m = 0.511 Mev/c^2.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">So John D’s sliding scale for the rest mass M of a zig-zagging photon of energy E , speed c and longitudinal velocity v, is M=(E/c^2) sin (Theta) = E/(gamma c^2). Can anyone verify this sliding scale relation, or contradict it (with calculations)?</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> Richard</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On May 31, 2015, at 2:01 AM, John Duffield <<a href="mailto:johnduffield@btconnect.com" class="" target="_blank">johnduffield@btconnect.com</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div class="WordSection1" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:12px; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; line-height:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(34,7,149)">John W:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(34,7,149)">A little feedback. IMHO it’s important, so bear with me:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" style="" lang="EN-US">If it has rest-mass it is not a photon.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(34,7,149)">If you slow down a photon to an effective speed of zero because you trap it in a mirror-box, all of its energy-momentum is exhibited as mass. Photon momentum is a measure of resistance to change-in-motion
for a wave moving linearly at c, whilst electron mass is a measure of resistance to change-in-motion for a wave going round and round at c. But check out photon effective mass. If you slow down a photon to less than c, some of its energy-momentum is exhibited
as mass. And there’s a sliding scale in between the two extremes. So if the speed of a photon in free space were to vary for some reason, its mass would vary. Of course this doesn’t happen to photons. But there are such things as neutrinos. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" style="" lang="EN-US">One must include the properties of emitter and absorber as well - these are essential to the quantisation</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(34,7,149)">I disagree with this. The emitter is an electron, the absorber is an electron. IMHO the electron is 511keV because of the quantum nature of light. Imagine kicking a football. Kick it fast or kick it
slow, the length of your leg is always the same. IMHO it’s the same for photon amplitude, and there’s only one wavelength that will do to wrap up that amplitude into the spin<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span class="" style="color:rgb(34,7,149)" lang="EN-US">½
spinor that we call an electron.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" style="" lang="EN-US">Isolated electrons cannot emit.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" style="color:rgb(34,7,149)" lang="EN-US">True, but check out the Inverse Compton.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" style="" lang="EN-US">The argument in the paper I have already posted is precisely that electromagnetism remains continuous and un-quantised.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" style="color:rgb(34,7,149)" lang="EN-US">But light is quantized, and we make electrons out of it. And they’re always 511keV electrons.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" style="" lang="EN-US">electromagnetic energy, propagated over a distance in space, must come in "lumps"</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" style="color:rgb(34,7,149)" lang="EN-US">An E=hf photon can have any frequency you like, and any energy you like. But it has a wave nature. Space waves. It is a lump. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" style="" lang="EN-US">Photons are the bit that do not inter-act.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" style="color:rgb(34,7,149)" lang="EN-US">Yes they do. Photons interact with photons in gamma-gamma pair production. And an electron is just a photon forever interacting with itself. Displacing its own path into a closed path. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" style="" lang="EN-US">Coming back to another point you raise – you suggest, Chip, that I should possibly try going to root two of c and then I’ll get my numbers to fit.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" style="color:rgb(34,7,149)" lang="EN-US">Imagine you’re in your gedanken canoe and a waves comes at you at the speed of light. You rise up. At what speed?<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span class="" style="" lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" style="" lang="EN-US">Two reasons: firstly the zitterbewegung fluid in the Dirac model is not fields but some stuff with peculiar properties defined by the new theory: Spinors. These have the peculiar property that you must rotate through 720
degrees to get back to where you started from.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" style="color:rgb(34,7,149)" lang="EN-US">That’s what you have to do to convert a field variation into a standing field. Imagine a seismic wave that displaces you 1m left then 1m right. Represent it as a sine-wave paper strip, like below. Then
turn that into a Mobius strip. You now have an all-round standing displacement of 1m.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" style=""><image001.jpg></span><span class="" style=""> <span class="" lang="EN-US"></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" style="" lang="EN-US">Coming back to a more advanced theory: one has to explain why and how charges arise in a pair-creation process. To do this one has to understand field properly</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" style="color:rgb(34,7,149)" lang="EN-US">IMHO one has to understand potential and displacement current, and how a field-variation is more fundamental than the electron’s electromagnetic field.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" style="" lang="EN-US">Are you charging the electric field part or the magnetic field part, for example.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" style="color:rgb(34,7,149)" lang="EN-US">One is the slope of your canoe, the other is the rate of change of slope of your canoe.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" style="" lang="EN-US">For me, the charge comes about more from, as Chip and John D are arguing, from a topological re-configuration of the field such that it is everywhere radial in a double looped configuration. The photon has field. The field
is rectified by the twist and the turn. The confinement leads then to a confined object appearing to be (and actually being) charged.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" style="color:rgb(34,7,149)" lang="EN-US">Well said that man. Why isn’t this common knowledge? </span><span class="" style="color:rgb(34,7,149)" lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" style="" lang="EN-US">The turn itself – essential to the re-configuration of the field, is engendered in my model not by a charge, but by<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" style="color:rgb(34,7,149)" lang="EN-US">displacement current. It does what it says on the can.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" style="" lang="EN-US">Now, coming back to numbers, let us say that I did want Martin and my old model to get the charge exactly right (for example).<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" style="color:rgb(34,7,149)" lang="EN-US">Try √(ε</span><span class="" style="font-size:6pt; color:rgb(34,7,149)" lang="EN-US">0</span><span class="" style="color:rgb(34,7,149)" lang="EN-US">/4πc³).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(34,7,149)">Regards</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(34,7,149)">JohnD</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<div class="">
<div class="" style="border-style:solid none none; border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225); border-top-width:1pt; padding:3pt 0cm 0cm">
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<b class=""><span class="" style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span class="" style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-US"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>General [<a href="mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On
Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>John Williamson<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>30 May 2015 16:31<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br class="">
<b class="">Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Manohar .; Nick Bailey; Anthony Booth; Ariane Mandray; Kyran Williamson<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Photon</span></div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" style="" lang="EN-US">Good morning everyone,<br class="">
<br class="">
Firstly - yes indeed I do not think I have it precisely right in the paper I have circulated yet. I am not in the habit of being completely right first-time every time! I'm actually quite pleased about that - otherwise where would be the fun? I have certainly
not explained myself well enough yet. Martin has, already, done a better job than me, on the nature of the photon, in his comment yesterday.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span class="" style="" lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" style="" lang="EN-US">Secondly, though, I do not agree with Chip that it ok to put photons on top of one another, or with Richard that the solution is to think about charged photons.<br class="">
<br class="">
The problem is description - and language is such an imprecise tool - words carry far too much weight yet you need to use them. More, if one is going to properly describe nature in a theory – you need the actual theory – not just vague notions that address
a single problem. For me the phrase “charged photon”, for example, is an oxymoron. The photon is for me, by its nature an uncharged and rest-massless thing. If it has charge it has rest-mass. If it has rest-mass it is not a photon. This is my problem though:
I do not own the word “photon”.<br class="">
<br class="">
Having a word for "photon" means that one is tempted to think that it is a thing. I say it and mean something – most of you hear something else (except Martin – he and I are pretty close on this and I agree with his description). For most, the concept separates
it from the complete process of charge-charge exchange of a quantum of energy - which is actually what is going on, and what is actually observed. So, when I say the photon is self-quantised I am not talking about a little self-contained quantized EM bullet
being emitted independent of its emitter or absorber. One must include the properties of emitter and absorber as well - these are essential to the quantisation and it is from these that one calculates the (mere) value of the charge and Plank's constant. It
is, as I argue, the properties of the emission-absorption process which give the quantisation. It is the initial configuration of the fields, engendered in the emitter that must modulate the carrier to a pure zero-rest mass configuration in order to propagate.
The initial fields in the emitter must fulfil strict criteria – corresponding exactly to those observed physically. They may only transform with the same factor as does the frequency (this is just normal relativity – not an extra condition). Fields transform,
however, only perpendicular to the boost, whereas the 4-vector transforms only parallel to it. Again, just the standard relativity of fields and vectors. If the fields are right, then they can be transported by a hypercomplex exponential which normally contains
rest-mass components and cannot itself propagate. It remains at rest at the site of the emitter (though it may recoil a bit). I think the reason I am getting the wrong value for the constant of Plank is nothing to do with the velocities I’m using but comes
about because I am assuming at first that the usual emitter is an electron – when in fact it is usually an atom. Isolated electrons cannot emit. I need now to brush up on atomic physics, Next job. Next paper – hopefully.<br class="">
<br class="">
No matter. The argument in the paper I have already posted is precisely that electromagnetism remains continuous and un-quantised. The point is that - for a long distance exchange of electromagnetic energy ONLY states which have certain properties may propagate.
Chief amongst those properties (for the wave-function proposed) is that constrained by this form, electromagnetic energy, propagated over a distance in space, must come in "lumps". The wave-function proposed supports ONLY a change in frequency. That is the
wave-function I propose works if, and only if, the energy transferred is proportional to the frequency. This is what is new about it. It only "works" if the light comes in lumps. It only propagates strongly constrained fields. This is not to say that electromagnetism
itself is quantised - it is not. It remains free to chirp and stretch and polarise freely as Martin explains. It describes only non-interacting waves NIW, as Chandra argues. Most of the physics is still just classical electromagnetism. Chandra is mostly right
(in my view). Read his papers! The inter-action is not between photons, it is between charges. Photons are the bit that do not inter-act. This is what NIW means.</span><span class="" style="" lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" style="" lang="EN-US">The new theory allows (actually it requires) the description of continuous waves, locally. They just do not propagate over long distances (even a few wavelengths!) because that is excluded at the level of the first turn
(the first differential). It is the whole process that exhibits the quantisation – just as Martin says. It is just that if light wants to go anywhere it, necessarily, starts looking a lot like a photon. Richard is right to separate out the different levels
of quantisation as well. It is not one thing, but the separation of the continuous into integer units of various dimension. There is not one “quantisation” in nature, but many. The new theory pertains only the process usually called photon exchange. The quantisation
I am talking about here is the quantisation of EM into "photons".<br class="">
<br class="">
Now, coming onto that process and that argument, you say, Chip, that it should be perfectly possible to put two photons precisely on top of one another so that they add linearly. 1+1=2. Yes – but no. Such an object is and has to be an object with a different
frequency. That is the point. This comes to the heart of the matter and the heart of the reason I argue the whole process should come in lumps defined by the frequency alone. If it were so that one could put two photons on top of one another, one would observe
the two "photons" to be emitted at precisely the same time in the same emission event, and absorbed at precisely the same time and place in the absorption event. That is one would propagate two red (say) photons and get a blue's worth of energy in the exchange
event now involving two photons. Now you may want this to be so, it may feel like a nice friendly thing photons (which are after all bosons) should be able to do. Only problem is that such a notion is in contradiction with what is observed experimentally.
One could put a diffraction grating between source and detector, for example, such that the photons appeared in different places according to their frequency. Place the detector at the "red" position. No signal. No di-photon events with the characteristics
of red photons. Where are they? Try going to the blue position. There they are! Appearing as one lump of energy one at a time. They do have the doubled energy one would expect from 1+1= 2 – but they do not – experimentally- have the same wavelength, or frequency.
You get only blue ones. This is what you observe and what has been observed all along in experiment since the photo-electric effect. In your thinking you must be rigorous enough to bear this in mind. What is observed in experiment is what your theory must
parallel. Otherwise it is just fantasy (fantasy is good!). To be proper physics, though, it must not just describe what does happen. It must also say why what is observed NOT to happen does not happen. Too many of the current batch of theories do describe
a wee bit of nature, but also predict vast slews of phenomena that just don’t happen. Not good! This may have become fashionable in the last half-century or so. It is certainly convenient for some theories as it means they cannot easily be toppled by pesky
experiment which would otherwise wipe most of them out. People have become used to theory predicting lots of things that do not happen. This is not good enough for proper progress. These theories cannot be used for engineering applications. One would predict
lots of things to work that would not. We need precision and rigour. This is why I appreciate criticism so much. Thanks Chip! It helps us all get to the point.</span><span class="" style="" lang="EN-US"></span></p>
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<span class="" style="" lang="EN-US">The ultimate "reason" for the quantisation of the compete solution I have made up in the paper is exactly the two conditions that energies should add AND that fields should add LINEARLY. This is what the new wave-functions
do.</span><span class="" style="" lang="EN-US"></span></p>
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<span class="" style="" lang="EN-US">It feels that one should have freedom of thought (and one does!), but for thinking to parallel the physical world it must be constrained, not by one thinks about nature, but by what one observes it to do. It must fit experiment.
All of it. In other words to parallel nature it must fit the whole of your physical understanding - all at once. This is very strongly constrained thinking. Worse- not all of us know all of experiment all at once (especially me!).</span><span class="" style="" lang="EN-US"></span></p>
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<span class="" style="" lang="EN-US">Coming back to another point you raise – you suggest, Chip, that I should possibly try going to root two of c and then I’ll get my numbers to fit. Now, if I just wanted to get the numbers to fit this might be an option.
I cannot allow myself to do this though. Why? Because light travels at c. Experimentally. This is not a floppy condition. It is not a parameter you can just vary with no consequence elsewhere. It is fun to think about it – but in doing so one moves away from
the whole constraint of the whole of physics I talked about above. One goes out in a soft, friendly, mushy area of thinking where all things are possible. One goes out in the world of untamed imagination. Great! There is plenty of room for that. I love fiction!
Physics is now so complicated, however, that such thinking will rapidly move away from that which is observed in very many areas. One is in a world without proper signposts or fixed points. This is a very similar world to the world of string, or the world
of QCD where nothing is well-defined. One is already lost.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span class="" style="" lang="EN-US"></span></p>
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<span class="" style="" lang="EN-US">Coming back to Richard’s point of the charged photon. Again one is going into the mushy – into the mist. Give the photon an intrinsic charge. Why not? The answer is, not only that charge is a divergence inconsistent with
light-speed motion as I argued earlier, (not a problem if one has a floppy light velocity though – such photons would be, necessarily, not composed of field and be sub-light speed), but that it is a mushy continuous charge thing. One should observe all sorts
of charges. One does not. One sees charges only associated with “particles”. A charged photon should not close, but should repel itself. One causes far more problems with the conjecture than one solves. The theory must not only explain what is observed, but
also why other things are NOT observed.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span class="" style="" lang="EN-US"></span></p>
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<span class="" style="" lang="EN-US">That comes to the other problem. There is no charged photon theory. No differential equations describing its motion. It ends up just being a notion. A notion, effectively, of charged fields. Why not just make it a scalar
charge? That is already complex enough. The theory for this was explored, for example, by Dirac himself in the fifties. It did not lead anywhere (yet, at least).</span><span class="" style="" lang="EN-US"></span></p>
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<span class="" style="" lang="EN-US">Now coming back to Dirac and his (much earlier) linear relativistic theory. Dirac, in his relativistic quantum mechanics, does indeed integrate his linear equation and derives a motion consisting of a quickly oscillating
lightspeed part, the zitterbewegung and an overall motion characterised by the normal energy as a half m v squared part. Very beautiful. He does not get them separately – they are the first two terms in an expansion. Incidentally this also gets the de-Broglie
wavelength right, with a doubled Compton frequency nota bene. The factor of two comes out. It is not put in a-priori. This is what happens in a proper relativistic linear theory. So what is the problem, why do we not just pack up go home and go fishing? Job
done. Two reasons: firstly the zitterbewegung fluid in the Dirac model is not fields but some stuff with peculiar properties defined by the new theory: Spinors. These have the peculiar property that you must rotate through 720 degrees to get back to where
you started from. This is good in itself – and goes a long way to describing the fundamental difference between fermions and bosons. It is certainly a big element of the truth. Understanding these objects properly, however, has proved beyond the wit of generations
of physicists (if they are honest) – including Dirac himself and Feymann- both of whom were bright and brave enough to simply say so. Dirac does so, for example, in his own book, directly after deriving the base solutions. Good man. Others waffle – or put
the problem into simple two-valued groups such as SU(2). Stick it into simple maths and forget about it. Make it an inviolable starting point of further theory. Bit wimpy – but safe<a name="_GoBack" class=""></a>! Moving spinors – even slowly moving spinors
start mixing with each other. They are not a relativistically invariant basis. Big problem!<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span class="" style="" lang="EN-US"></span></p>
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<span class="" style="" lang="EN-US">I think the base problem with the Dirac model is that it is still too simple – and I think that the point where Dirac goes wrong is when he makes two different identifications with the same thing. This messes everything
up and leads to, not only solutions, but also basic dynamical terms “being difficult to interpret because they are complex” - as Dirac says. Where this comes from is that he has used, unwittingly, the same square root of minus one for two conceptually different
things. Complex indeed, but not complex enough. And mixed up at that.</span><span class="" style="" lang="EN-US"></span></p>
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<span class="" style="" lang="EN-US">Coming back to a more advanced theory: one has to explain why and how charges arise in a pair-creation process. To do this one has to understand field properly (at least as the six components of an antisymettric tensor –
but tensor algebra does not go far enough (yet) either). One needs to get going with a proper field theory – not just with a loosely based model. If you are going to charge a photon this cannot be ad-hoc. Are you charging the electric field part or the magnetic
field part, for example. Are you adding a 4-vector (charge is the first component of the 4-current) to the six-vector? Just what is it, exactly, that you are proposing? How do you propose to modify the undelying theory to accommodate your conjecture?</span><span class="" style="" lang="EN-US"></span></p>
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<span class="" style="" lang="EN-US">For me, the charge comes about more from, as Chip and John D are arguing, from a topological re-configuration of the field such that it is everywhere radial in a double looped configuration. The photon has field. The field
is rectified by the twist and the turn. The confinement leads then to a confined object appearing to be (and actually being) charged.</span><span class="" style="" lang="EN-US"></span></p>
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<span class="" style="" lang="EN-US">The turn itself – essential to the re-configuration of the field, is engendered in my model not by a charge, but by a dynamical scalar rest-mass term in conjunction with the electric component of the field. This is a seventh
component in addition to the six components of the EM field. You may also see it as an element of energy. I agree with you partially here, that this is fundamental stuff – but so is field and field is different. It is not a scalar.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span class="" style="" lang="EN-US"></span></p>
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<span class="" style="" lang="EN-US">The resulting composite object is fermionic in that it a double-turn –a fundamental fermion. It is charged in that it can inter-act and exchange energy. In isolation, it exhibits a radial electric field – as does a charge.
Why would you need to complicate things by wanting the poor photon to be charged as well? You do not need it! How are you ever going to calculate the charge from first principles when you put a random amount of it in to begin with? You are going to get the
charge of the photon, plus or minus the charge engendered by the topology and the confinement. Why? I think at this point one is doubly lost. One has had to give up the idea that EM propagates at lightspeed and one has also arbitrarily assigned a charge to
an imagined “charged photon” – an object which is not observed in the real world. Further, one has lost the possibility of a theory to work with as there is no theory of the charged photon with equations like the Maxwell equations, or the Schroedinger equation,
or the Dirac equation. One is then triply lost.</span><span class="" style="" lang="EN-US"></span></p>
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<span class="" style="" lang="EN-US">Now, coming back to numbers, let us say that I did want Martin and my old model to get the charge exactly right (for example). There is a simple way to do this without too much fuss and without varying the lightspeed or
introducing a charge to the photon. Just allow the ratio of the minor to the major axes of the torus to vary. If zero – one gets the charge slightly less than q. A bit more – hey presto- just right. More still … one can wind it up to about 20 times the charge
observed. Why is this not a result? Why does this not fix the ratio of minor to major. Well – for example could vary all sorts of other things – why not flatten it slightly? Why not put it in a cubical box (this value is then damn close –less than a percent!).
Why not stick a hole in it – like a spindle? Why not make it pear-shaped (this is not as daft as it sounds and may end up being the answer!).</span><span class="" style="" lang="EN-US"></span></p>
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<span class="" style="" lang="EN-US">Yes – you can do anything in your mind. The problem is that process is futile unless one has a proper theory, or some experiment which can distinguish these things. Now, clearly, I’m hoping that the new theory I propose
may, ultimately, provide the answer. My second choice would be that the extension of the Bateman method, which Martin is pursuing, does the trick. Maybe these will converge or merge with some other thinking in the group (even better!). Perhaps we will find
some seminal experiment which fixes some aspect of it. Perhaps the experiment has already been done and one or other of you know about it.</span><span class="" style="" lang="EN-US"></span></p>
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<span class="" style="" lang="EN-US">There is a lot of work between where I am now and there though, and perhaps not enough life and energy left in me to pursue it as much as I would like, (squished as I am by a pile of exams – though the marking is now nearly
finished). The work to come requires developing a canon of work similar to that produced by dozens of the greats in non-relativistic quantum mechanics in the 1930’s – except the base equations are much more complicated than the simple Schroedinger equation.
We have equations, but we need to find solutions to the equations. Plenty of work to do! I’m hoping to convince a few folk with enough talent and energy to start getting stuck in to this programme. The process can, and probably will, throw up problems with
the original conception and formulation. I agree here with Chip! No problem! If it is wrong – modify it or throw it out and make up a new one. That is the proper application of the scientific method.</span><span class="" style="" lang="EN-US"></span></p>
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<span class="" style="" lang="EN-US">Anyway this has turned into too much of an opus. Though it was started in the morning it is now afternoon and time for me to go and get on with some proper work. Marking awaits!</span><span class="" style="" lang="EN-US"></span></p>
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<span class="" style="" lang="EN-US">Bye for now,</span><span class="" style="" lang="EN-US"></span></p>
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<span class="" style="" lang="EN-US">John W.</span><span class="" style="" lang="EN-US"></span></p>
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<b class=""><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>General [<a href="mailto:general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]
on behalf of Richard Gauthier [<a href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">richgauthier@gmail.com</a>]<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Saturday, May 30, 2015 2:59 PM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Photon</span></p>
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<span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">John and Martin,</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> Thanks for your encouragement. The electron is a photon going round and round in the case of a resting electron, otherwise it is a photon going round and round and forward in some kind of
helical motion, in which case it is not a standing field in this reference frame. Whether or not the charge of a charged photon moves at the speed of light depends on the particular model of the photon that one has. The relativistic charged-photon/electron
model does not require a particular photon model.The charge that is detected, like the electron mass that is detected, may be moving at sub-light speed. Mass is not more fundamental than energy, and is proposed to be composed of light-speed energy in the case
of the electron.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> Richard</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">On May 30, 2015, at 5:03 AM, John Duffield <<a href="mailto:johnduffield@btconnect.com" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">johnduffield@btconnect.com</a>>
wrote:</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Can anyone clearly explain why a charged photon of spin 1/2 hbar and rest mass 0.511MeV/c^2 is not the missing link between the uncharged photon and the electron?</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Yes, I can. The electron is a 511keV photon going round and round. It’s a charged particle<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">because</i><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>it’s
a photon going round and round. The photon moving linearly is a field variation, but when it’s going round and round, it’s a standing field. That’s why it has mass too. It’s like<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.researchgate.net/publication/273419950_Light_is_Heavy" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="color:purple">the
photon In a box</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>. Only it’s a box of its own making. Light displaces its own path into a closed path, because light is displacement current. And it does what it says on the can. Because space waves. </span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Regards</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(31,73,125)">John D</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(31,73,125)">PS: Counter-rotating vortices repel,<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><u class="">co</u>-rotating vortices attract, see<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.scribd.com/doc/68152826/On-Vortex-Particles-Fiasco-Press-Journal-of-Swarm-Scholarship#scribd" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="color:purple">On
Vortex Particles</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>by David St John. They ain’t called spinors for nothing!<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<b class=""><span class="" style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-US">General [<a href="mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On
Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Mark, Martin van der<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>29 May 2015 23:47<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Photon</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Richard, yes, thank you.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">That is indeed a very good remark, you are probably very right.<br class="">
Let me think about it a bit more,</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Best,</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Martin<br class="">
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Verstuurd vanaf mijn iPhone</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" lang="EN-US"><br class="">
Op 29 mei 2015 om 21:45 heeft Richard Gauthier <<a href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="color:purple">richgauthier@gmail.com</span></a>> het volgende geschreven:</span></p>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Chip, John and Martin,<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> I think you gentlemen are onto something. A photon has three related levels of quantization (E=hf, p=h/lambda and spin = hbar) — perhaps only the third is truly quantized in the sense of having a
discrete value. An electron has two more levels of discrete quantization (charge and rest mass) which may be closely related to its spin 1/2 hbar. The electron’s charge may be closely related to its spin hbar/2 in the case of the electron, but not the case
of the neutrino). An electron gains further levels of discrete quantization (its energy eigenvalues) by being bound in an atom. The more discrete quantum levels a quantum has, the more it is “bound” to a material condition. Can anyone clearly explain why
a charged photon of spin 1/2 hbar and rest mass 0.511MeV/c^2 is not the missing link between the uncharged photon and the electron?</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> Richard</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">On May 29, 2015, at 12:07 PM, Chip Akins <<a href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="color:purple">chipakins@gmail.com</span></a>>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Hi Martin</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">With your experience and depth of understanding regarding photons, and the evidence, I am of course inclined to agree with you regarding the nature of photons.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Regarding: “</span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(31,73,125)">How and why that works the same for radio waves and gamma rays, is a mystery. Well this bit is my personal opinion, of
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">There is perhaps a difference between the interactions we observe when using longer wavelength radio waves as compared to the particle-sized gamma rays. The radio waves are a source of field influence
which can cause electron drift, just as a DC field can move electrons, but at the scale of the electron, or even the electron’s “orbit” in an atom, the frequency of the radio wave is far less “important” than the frequency of a gamma ray would be. The resonances
of the particle would be less likely to be significantly influenced by the radio wave, but the radio wave would still exert a force on the electron. Radio waves are generally detected by measuring the movement of electrons in conductive materials where the
electrons in the materials are fairly easy to move. It seems likely that it takes at least the motion of one electron in the transmitting antenna to induce any motion of an electron in a receiving antenna, assuming the same configuration of transmitter and
receiver antennae. But the incident field on the receiving antenna may not be an integral value of “photon energy”.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Is this why you refer to a “continuum wave”? Because the absorber only uses what is can use of the available energy? So that a photon may actually contain more energy than is absorbed in an interaction?</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Chip</span></div>
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<b class=""><span class="" style="font-size:11pt">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt">General [<a href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="color:purple">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a>]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On
Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Mark, Martin van der<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, May 29, 2015 12:42 PM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Photon</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Dear Chip,<br class="">
now you are really getting there for sure, those questions and statements are at the right level to begin with. But your kind of understanding certainly converges with my ideas.</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(31,73,125)">That me be good or bad, but I would judge it as good. ;-)</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(31,73,125)">See for extra comments below…</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Cheers, Martin</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif; color:navy" lang="DE">Dr. Martin B. van der Mark</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif; color:navy">Principal Scientist, Minimally Invasive Healthcare</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif; color:navy">Philips Research Europe - Eindhoven</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif; color:navy">High Tech Campus, Building 34 (WB2.025)</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif; color:navy">Prof. Holstlaan 4</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif; color:navy">5656 AE Eindhoven, The Netherlands</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif; color:navy">Tel: +31 40 2747548</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<b class=""><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">General
[</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><a href="mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif; color:purple">mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a></span><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On
Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Chip Akins<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>vrijdag 29 mei 2015 15:45<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Photon</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Thank you. One reason for asking the question and pursuing the thought process, was to try to further illustrate the lack of any explanation so far which supports the strict self-quantization of photons.
This has been leading me to think that the source for quantization is the spin ½ configuration of fermions. (Which would act as quantizers both while emitting and absorbing). If this is true then it means that, for a photon, E=hv only holds true because of
the emitter and absorber.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(31,73,125)">MvdM: This may be exactly right.</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Regarding the uncertainty principle:</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">If we take a single point snapshot of a sinusoidal function we are very uncertain about its frequency, the more time we spend sampling the wave the more certain we become of its frequency. Now if we
are using sinusoidal waves to create particles, many of the properties of the particles will be uncertain with our measurements, because the measurements we can take disturb the system, and are only valid for brief times or spaces before the information is
no longer valid, due to measurement. Because when we set up a measurement, we create conditions where discrete waves and fields will interact, creating an energy exchange which occurs in a very finite timeframe, disturbing completely what we are measuring.
This correlation to the uncertainty principle is one of the reasons that I feel fields and waves are the best candidate for the fundamental makeup of particles. Fields and waves in these configurations naturally create an uncertainty in measurement which correlates
exactly with the observed, understood, and measured uncertainties. The hydrogen atom is such a nice tool for modeling and understanding these issues.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(31,73,125)">MvdM: yes and this kind of uncertainty is given by what is called the Fourier limit amended with hbar</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Of course the use of the word orbit to describe the electron’s state in an atom is too ambiguous to actually describe its state. The electron exists in a space surrounding the nucleus, and spins about
it, but it’s more like the electron surrounds the nucleus and less like an orbit.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(31,73,125)">MvdM: true, and this is why detailed orbital calculations in a photon model for the electron are totally futile; only a real theory will tell.</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">So what I am getting to is that the different “spin modes” of the photon and the electron are significant. I think the photon has what we may call a symmetric field spin mode, where it spins about
the point between the positive and negative field lines, making it charge neutral. But the electron’s principal spin is a non-symmetrical field spin mode, with the point between the positive and negative fields displaced from the spin axis, giving it charge.
Apparently this has other important effects as well. It seems this spin mode allows the electron to be quantized based on energy density, unlike the photon.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">The underlying reason I am asking these questions is related to the formulation for field equations. There seems to be a difference between the behavior of the fields in the photon and the quantization
behavior of the fields in fermions. The spin configuration seems to be the cause for the forces which create quantization.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(31,73,125)">MvdM: Yes and the reason is that the electron needs binding forces and nonlinearity, the “free” photon doesn’t</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">But back to the photon: Since the photon cannot be quantized by its internal energy density, does it spin due to the spin angular momentum imparted by the emitter? Is the photon actually not internally
quantized at all? That is to say, is there no inherent mechanism within the photon itself which imposed a specific quantization? Is the relationship E=hv imposed only at the emission or absorption? And therefore can we create photons without spin? Or can we
create photons where E=hv is not true? And are photons really particles at all, or are they just waves, which seem like particles because of their interaction with the quantization of emitters and absorbers.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(31,73,125)">MvdM: Good questions, I go for waves. The photon is merely a quantum of energy that is taken up by the absorber from a continuum wave. It is not a particle by it self, and doen’t need to have the machinery
on-board to keep itself together or be quantized or what. It is just a Maxwell wave. But this Maxwell wave can only be emitted and absorbed according to the rules of (boundary conditions imposed by) emitter and absorber. How and why that works the same for
radio waves and gamma rays, is a mystery. Well this bit is my personal opinion, of course.</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">While we could view many of the question as rhetorical it seems that we may need to understand and answer them as literal. Chandra, Martin, All?</span></div>
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<b class=""><span class="" style="font-size:11pt">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt">General [</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><a href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:purple">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt">]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On
Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>John Williamson<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday, May 28, 2015 4:29 PM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Photon</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif" lang="EN-US">Hi Chip and everyone,<br class="">
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Good thought but no- quantisation cannot be dependent on energy density. This is what experiment tells you - and is the beauty of experiment. Experimentally photons can have any wave-train length. The photon energy, however, is related to its frequency alone.
Photons from a source have a well-defined energy only if they are pretty long (this is a consequence of the uncertainty principle). There are lots of people in the group (Martin and Chandra for two) - who know lots more about this than I do and some who perform
experiments interfering, stretching and bending light.<br class="">
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Any proper theory needs to describe experiment - all of it - not just the bits we may happen to know about!<br class="">
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<b class=""><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif" lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif" lang="EN-US"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif" lang="EN-US">General
[<a href="mailto:general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="color:purple">general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a>]
on behalf of Chip Akins [<a href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="color:purple">chipakins@gmail.com</span></a>]<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Monday, May 25, 2015 4:51 PM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Photon</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" lang="EN-US"></span></p>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Hi John W and All</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">While looking at quantization which may be caused by a twist term included with Maxwell’s equations, at least one puzzle remains unanswered for me. The nature of photons is still a bit difficult to
understand. It is much easier to envision a photon of a single wavelength than a photon which is many wavelengths. If energy density is the cause for quantization (spin and frequency) it is more difficult to see how that can be so, if a photon may have an
arbitrary number of cycles, but have its energy density spread out over all cycles. What do you think the likelihood is that not only frequency but also the number of cycles in a photon is quantized? If this is the case then we could still understand how
the correct spin would result from energy density for each cycle. But then we would have to also address the energy density to twist relationship for single wavelength structures like the electron models we have been creating.???</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">It seems evident that quantization for frequency is dependent upon energy, and I assumed it was therefore due to energy density. Which works nicely for single wavelength photons. Experiment seems to
indicate that we can create photons, using various methods, which have an arbitrary number of wavelengths. How can we physically correlate this to photon frequency quantization, when the energy density of the photon has been spread out over many cycles? Is
there some apparently “non-local” mechanism which couples the energy of all cycles in a single photon, and therefore helps to retain the E=hv relationship?</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Thoughts?</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Chip</span></div>
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<b class=""><span class="" style="font-size:11pt">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt">General [</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><a href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:purple">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt">]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On
Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>John Williamson<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Sunday, May 24, 2015 10:46 PM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Electron Torus</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">Hello,<br class="">
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Briefly - yes pi mesons are real particles. They leave nice long traces in cloud or bubble chambers. The rho is equally real.<br class="">
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Gluons have never been observed directly. The W and Z are sufficiently short-lived that they are observed as so-called resonances.<br class="">
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<b class=""><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif" lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif" lang="EN-US"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif" lang="EN-US">General
[<a href="mailto:general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="color:purple">general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a>]
on behalf of Richard Gauthier [<a href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="color:purple">richgauthier@gmail.com</span></a>]<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Sunday, May 24, 2015 11:21 PM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Electron Torus</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" lang="EN-US"></span></p>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">John D,<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> And according to <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particle" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="color:purple">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particle</span></a> ,
the pi meson and rho meson are virtual particles for proton-neutron attraction in nuclei, as are the W and Z bosons for the weak nuclear force. Are gluons, pi mesons and W and Z particles ever real?</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">On May 24, 2015, at 8:58 AM, John Duffield <<a href="mailto:johnduffield@btconnect.com" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="color:purple">johnduffield@btconnect.com</span></a>>
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<span class="" style="">Richard:</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="">See the<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluon#Confinement" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:purple">Wikipedia
gluon article</span></a></span><span class="" style="">, note the bit that says<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><i class=""><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" lang="EN">as opposed to virtual ones found in ordinary
hadrons.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></i><span class="" style="" lang="EN">The gluons in a proton are virtual. As in not real. And LOL, perhaps the same is true of the quarks!<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="" lang="EN">Regards</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<b class=""><span class="" style="font-size:11pt">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt">General [</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><a href="mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:purple">mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt">]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On
Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Richard Gauthier<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>24 May 2015 16:12<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Electron Torus</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Chip, Martin, John D and others,</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> I suspect that the fundamental quantities of both spacetime and particles/fields are frequency (directly proportional to the energy of a particle and inversely proportional to time) and wavelength
(inversely proportional to the momentum of a particle and directly proportional to space). Spin is related to energy-momentum topology. Electric charge seems related to topology. Particles with rest mass are composed of charged photons and related speed-of-light
particles like charged gluons (normal gluons are electrically uncharged but have color charge while quarks have both electrical charge and color charge.) And I suspect that the energy quantum (composing both speed-of-light particles and rest-mass particles)
is the unifying link between spacetime and particles/fields (and therefore quantum mechanics/QED/QCD/quantum gravity) and may be the precursor as well as the sustainer of both.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> Richard</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">On May 24, 2015, at 7:06 AM, Mark, Martin van der <<a href="mailto:martin.van.der.mark@philips.com" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="color:purple">martin.van.der.mark@philips.com</span></a>>
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<span class="" style="font-size:9pt; font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">John D, </span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:9pt; font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">I fully agree with your reply to Chip, thanks for the details!</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:9pt; font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">Please join us at the bar;-)</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:9pt; font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">Cheers three!</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:9pt; font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">Martin<br class="">
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Verstuurd vanaf mijn iPhone</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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Op 24 mei 2015 om 15:56 heeft John Duffield <</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" lang="EN-US"><a href="mailto:johnduffield@btconnect.com" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:9pt; font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif; color:purple">johnduffield@btconnect.com</span></a></span><span class="" style="font-size:9pt; font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" lang="EN-US">>
het volgende geschreven:</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" lang="EN-US"></span></p>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Chip:</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(31,73,125)">I’m blue, you’re black:</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">As all of you know, after Relativity was introduced and adopted, the popular belief for a while, was that space was empty, and that a media of space was not required. Now however it seems that most
physicists have accepted that space is a media, with quantum attributes, and some level of energy density. </span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(31,73,125)">That popular belief was a cargo-cult false belief, because Einstein made it clear in his 1920 Leyden Address that space was the “aether” of general relativity. He made it clear that space was not
some emptiness, but instead was a thing that is “conditioned” by a massive body such as a star.</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">If space is a media, what would we perceive which is different from space being empty?</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(31,73,125)">That popular belief was a cargo-cult belief, because Einstein made it clear in his 1920 </span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><a href="http://einsteinpapers.press.princeton.edu/vol7-trans/192?highlightText=%22neither%20homogeneous%22" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:purple">Leyden
Address</span></a></span><span class="apple-converted-space"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(31,73,125)">that space was the “aether” of general relativity, and space
was not empty.</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Some would say there is no perceptible difference. But is that precisely true?</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(31,73,125)">No. Like Einstein said in<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><a href="http://www.rain.org/~karpeles/einsteindis.html" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:purple">1929</span></a></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(31,73,125)">,
a field is a state of space.</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">If space is a media, it implies a preferred reference frame in space. This is an item which would be difficult, or perhaps impossible to detect, but for one item. If space is a media with a preferred
reference frame, then clocks in that reference frame would be the fastest clocks possible in the universe. </span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(31,73,125)">There’s also the<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_microwave_background#CMBR_dipole_anisotropy" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:purple">CMB
reference frame</span></a></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(31,73,125)">. It’s preferred in that it tells you your speed through the universe. And whilst it isn’t an absolute frame in the strict sense, the universe is as absolute as it
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">One thing which would alter the ability to test this is a gross frame dragging of space around massive bodies or concentrations of mass.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(31,73,125)">See<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><a href="http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/newsandevents/pressreleases/galaxy_sized_twist/" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:purple">the
asymmetric Kerr metric as a source of CP violation</span></a></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(31,73,125)">. It’s to do with galactic frame-dragging.</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">If space is a media, and if frame dragging does occur</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(31,73,125)">It’s a popscience myth that it isn’t a medium, electromagnetic waves do not propagate because an electric wave creates a magnetic wave and vice versa. I’m confident that frame dragging does occur,
and that the electron electromagnetic field is a fierce example of it.</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<b class=""><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">A definition of TIME is the underlying objective of this line of questions.</span></b><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> For I see two possibilities, one is that
time is an inherent property of space and, as the current relativity teaches, a fourth dimension in our “spacetime”. The other is that time is simply the rate at which particles can interact, caused by the fact that fields can only propagate at a finite velocity,
and that we are made of particles which are circularly confined fields.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">I feel the first explanation is less likely because it does not show cause, it does not tell us why time is part of space, just that it is. The second explanation is the one I currently prefer because
it is a simple consequence of the nature of space and particles, it shows cause.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(31,73,125)">I prefer it too, and so did Einstein. See<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><a href="http://www.physicsdiscussionforum.org/time-explained-t3.html" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:purple">Time
Explained</span></a></span><span class="apple-converted-space"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(31,73,125)">and<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><a href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/World-without-Time-Forgotten-Einstein/dp/0465092942" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:purple">A
World Without Time: the forgotten legacy of Godel and Einstein</span></a></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(31,73,125)">.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Is time truly a fourth dimension at the lowest level of analysis of space?</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(31,73,125)">No. We live in a world of space and motion. Our time dimension is derived from motion. It’s a dimension in the sense of measure, not in the sense of freedom of motion.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Regards</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(31,73,125)">John D</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<b class=""><span class="" style="font-size:11pt">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt">General [</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><a href="mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:purple">mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt">]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On
Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Chip Akins<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>24 May 2015 14:24<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Electron Torus</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Hi All</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">We are working on the foundations of physics. Studying and trying to decipher the result of experiment in a causal manner.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">As we do that it keeps bringing me back to the nature of space itself. John M has made some good points about starting from the makeup of space and working our way up from there. John D has communicated
a solid and basic approach to many of the issues. Many of us have proposed models, field formulations, and a host of other possible explanations for what we observe.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">As we reflect on what we have done and what we still need to do, there are some things which may still need to be addressed and answered before we can make progress in certain areas.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">For example, the nature of space and time, are fundamental to understanding physics. Some of us feel we have a reasonable handle on this, and it is a very basic part of what we are doing, but I am
thinking that we do not yet have it quite right. For the endeavor we have undertaken, I think close is not good enough.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">First I want to state clearly that I do not yet propose to have the answers to the nature of space, all I have is conjecture so far.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">As all of you know, after Relativity was introduced and adopted, the popular belief for a while, was that space was empty, and that a media of space was not required. Now however it seems that most
physicists have accepted that space is a media, with quantum attributes, and some level of energy density. </span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">However many of the subtle suggestions engendered during that time when it was perceived that space was empty, and much of the “foundation” of relativity is still based on there being no media which
constitutes space.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">If space is a media, what would we perceive which is different from space being empty? Some would say there is no perceptible difference. But is that precisely true?</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">If space is a media, it implies a preferred reference frame in space. This is an item which would be difficult, or perhaps impossible to detect, but for one item.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">If space is a media with a preferred reference frame, then clocks in that reference frame would be the fastest clocks possible in the universe. All clocks in all other inertial frames would be slower.
One thing which would alter the ability to test this is a gross frame dragging of space around massive bodies or concentrations of mass.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">It seems that relativity has been tested with regards to the slowing of clocks with relative velocity to a precision of about 1.6% to 10% depending on which experiments you prefer. But of course these
tests are at low relative velocities and only represent a narrow prat of the spectrum of tests which would be required to absolutely validate the entire curve. And an error of 1.6% is still a substantial error for this type of validation.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">If space is a media, and if frame dragging does occur, again it would be difficult to verify the existence of the media using clocks, depending on how much frame dragging there is. If space is a media,
how can we calculate the frame dragging and quantify it?</span></div>
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<b class=""><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">A definition of TIME is the underlying objective of this line of questions.</span></b><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> For I see two possibilities, one is that
time is an inherent property of space and, as the current relativity teaches, a fourth dimension in our “spacetime”. The other is that time is simply the rate at which particles can interact, caused by the fact that fields can only propagate at a finite velocity,
and that we are made of particles which are circularly confined fields.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">I feel the first explanation is less likely because it does not show cause, it does not tell us why time is part of space, just that it is. The second explanation is the one I currently prefer because
it is a simple consequence of the nature of space and particles, it shows cause.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">One thing I think we must remember as we construct a physical model is that we are dealing with the fundamentals and foundations, the building blocks so to speak, and in that endeavor we will probably
find instances where a phenomenon like the definition of time, or the definition of charge, or the definition of spin, is not the same at the micro level as it is at our macro observable level. If we do our job well we will discover the causes and sources
of many of these types of phenomena. At levels below the causal level for any of these phenomena, the macro rules no longer apply in full.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">After saying that, a question would naturally arise, if time as we measure it is merely the result of the interaction of particles, how and when do we incorporate the dimension of time in our calculations?
Is the development of time at such a low level that we should include it in all calculations, just as relativity teaches? Or does time come into play only at the particle level, and the finite velocity of light predominates at lower levels? Is time truly a
fourth dimension at the lowest level of analysis of space? Or does it just appear to be that way from our perspectives due to the nature of our particulate construction and measurements?</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Any and all opinion and argument is eagerly appreciated. If you could please let me know your take on this and the reasons you feel that way I will be grateful.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Chip</span></div>
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<b class=""><span class="" style="font-size:11pt">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt">General [</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><a href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:purple">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt">]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On
Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>John Williamson<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, May 22, 2015 8:02 AM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Electron Torus</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif" lang="EN-US">Hello Chip,<br class="">
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Regards. John (W)</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" lang="EN-US"></span></p>
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<b class=""><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif" lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif" lang="EN-US"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif" lang="EN-US">General
[</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" lang="EN-US"><a href="mailto:general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif; color:purple">general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a></span><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif" lang="EN-US">]
on behalf of Chip Akins [</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" lang="EN-US"><a href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif; color:purple">chipakins@gmail.com</span></a></span><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif" lang="EN-US">]<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, May 22, 2015 1:59 PM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Electron Torus</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" lang="EN-US"></span></p>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Hi Richard</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Sorry I was modeling what I though was the spin 1 photon model of the electron.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">This is what I perceive to be your spin ½ photon model of the electron to be with velocity. Same velocity steps as before.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Nested set of models,</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><image001.png></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Slow trajectory lines, purple, faster trajectory lines tending toward green.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Here is the code for the electron’s reference frame for the above graphic:</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:'Courier New'">X(ii)=Roc*(1/y^2+(1/y)*cosd(y*c*(t)/Roc))*cosd(y*c*(t)/Roc);</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:'Courier New'">Y(ii)=Roc*(1/y^2+(1/y)*cosd(y*c*(t)/Roc))*sind(y*c*(t)/Roc);</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:'Courier New'">Z(ii)=(Roc/y)*sind(y*c*(t)/Roc);</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Note: there is still a very small electron model (with velocity 0.9988c) at the center of this graphic. In this model the contraction is in all directions, not just longitudinally. I think this is
correct, but it does not agree with some interpretations of relativity. It is also difficult to see how this model, without spiral fields, would look the same to a moving observer when the electron is “at rest”. </span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">And the model is of course not really spherical.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Does this match your results?</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Can you share the graphics model you have done?</span></div>
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<b class=""><span class="" style="font-size:11pt">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt">General [</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><a href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:purple">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt">]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On
Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Richard Gauthier<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, May 22, 2015 7:31 AM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Electron Torus</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> Isn’t it the case that in standard physics (experimentally confirmed) the measured spin of an electron is relative to the motion of the observer of the electron, just as the observed momentum of
an electron is relative to the motion of the observer of the electron? If an observer moving west to east with a relativistic velocity v1 passes a “stationary” electron (in some reference frame) , the electron has an observed momentum (when it measured) going
west, and a spin either up or down (when it is measured) in the east-west direction and a de Broglie wavelength corresponding to the relative velocity v1, while when an observer moving relativistically south to north with velocity v2 passes a “stationary"
electron , the electron has an observed momentum (when it is measured) going south, a spin that is up or down (when it is measured) in the north-south direction, and a de Broglie wavelength corresponding to its relative velocity v2. (In QM, velocity, spin
and de Broglie wavelength probably can’t all be measured at the same time). </span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">The relativistic energy-momentum equation for the electron E^2 = p^2 c^2 + m^2 c^4 applies to the electron described above when observed by two observers with two different relativistic velocities compared
to the electron. I showed in my article “the electron is a charged photon with the de Broglie wavelength” that the same relativistic energy-momentum equation applies to a helically moving double-looping photon that may compose an electron, where E is the energy
of the photon (the same as the total energy of the electron composed by the photon), p is the longitudinal momentum of the helically moving photon (the same as the momentum p of the electron being modeled), E/c is the total momentum of the photon along its
helical path, and mc is the transverse momentum of the helically moving photon, which contributes to the electron’s spin up or spin down value hbar/2 in the case of a slow moving electron (modeled by the double-looping photon). So every electron observed to
have a momentum p will in this view also have a spin hbar/2 up or down in the direction of its momentum. </span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Also, when a photon is Doppler shifted-due to relative motion of the light source away from or towards the observer, the observed wavelength of the photon is lengthened or shortened accordingly. Doesn’t
this imply that the length of the whole photon (if it consists of a certain number of wavelengths) is also lengthened or shortened accordingly?</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">On May 22, 2015, at 12:06 AM, John Duffield <<a href="mailto:johnduffield@btconnect.com" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="color:purple">johnduffield@btconnect.com</span></a>>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(31,73,125)">David:</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Why don’t photons get length contracted? Because they’re just waves in space moving at the speed of waves in space. A ripple in a rubber mat doesn’t get length contracted, nor do waves in space. Then
when you make those waves go round and round, they still don’t get length-contracted. Then when you move past them fast, they still don’t get length contracted. You might say the path of those waves is different, but it isn’t, they didn’t change, you did.
And if you boil yourself down to a single electron, and boil that down to a ring, then draw circles and helixes, I think it gets to the bottom of things.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Yes, I’m certain relative velocity is a determining factor. But note that “we” are made of electrons and things, so IMHO it’s best to start with two particles, such as the electron and the positron.
If you set them down with no initial relative motion they move linearly together, and we talk of electric force. </span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(31,73,125)">However if you threw the postiron over the top of the electron they’d move together and go around one another, whereupon we talk of magnetic force. Note that this is relative velocity, not relativistic
velocity. I’ve seen people<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><a href="http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/65335/how-do-moving-charges-produce-magnetic-fields" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:purple">explain
the magnetic field around the current-in-the-wire using length contraction</span></a></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(31,73,125)">, but IMHO that’s a fairy tale, and I prefer a<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><a href="http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/184055/atomic-explanation-of-magnetic-field/184079?noredirect=1#comment388570_184079" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:purple">“screw”
answer</span></a></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(31,73,125)">. </span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Regards</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<b class=""><span class="" style="font-size:11pt">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt">General [</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><a href="mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:purple">mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt">]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On
Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Chip Akins<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>21 May 2015 21:39<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Electron Torus</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Hi John D</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Regarding…</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Sorry, I don’t think that can be right because you could go past an electron at .9988c.</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Yes, I am coming to think that maybe the spiral fields caused by limited field propagation velocity, might play a larger role than I had first considered.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">I think Martin was onto this aspect already.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Wondering if relative velocity is a factor in determining what portion of the spiral field we detect or interact with? And if so, how that might work.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">The earlier electron model graphics are created from the math that Richard developed for his spin ½ electron.</span></div>
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<b class=""><span class="" style="font-size:11pt">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt">General [</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><a href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:purple">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt">]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On
Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>John Duffield<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday, May 21, 2015 3:15 PM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Electron Torus</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Chip:</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Sorry, I don’t think that can be right because you could go past an electron at .9988c.</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Andrew:</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Photons don’t get length contracted, and electrons are made out of photons in pair production. If you simplify the electron to a photon going round in a circle, then take one point on the circumference,
you would say it describes a circular path. But when you move past the electron fast, you would say that point was describing a helical path. Then when you consider all points of the circumference, you might say the electron was a cylinder rather than a circle.
And if you<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">were</i><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>that electron, everything to you would look length-contracted, because you’re smeared out. If I was a motionless electron you’d say I was
length contracted. But I might say<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">I<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></i>was the one moving, and that<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">you’re</i><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>length-contracted.
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Regards</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(31,73,125)">John</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<b class=""><span class="" style="font-size:11pt">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt">General [</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><a href="mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:purple">mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt">]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On
Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Chip Akins<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>21 May 2015 17:52<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Electron Torus</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Hi Andrew</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Images from the electron’s reference frame.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">For Richard’s model using the spin 1 photon, and drawing in the electron’s reference frame, his math produces the following image for a set of nested electron models with velocities up to 0.9988c.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">The small grey sphere in the center is the electron model for 0.9988c.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">So in this model the electron shrinks in all directions, but remains principally spherical when viewed from the electron’s reference frame.</span></div>
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<b class=""><span class="" style="font-size:11pt">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt">General [</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><a href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:purple">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt">]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On
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<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday, May 21, 2015 11:15 AM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion; Andrew Meulenberg<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Electron Torus</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" lang="EN-US">Dear Chip,</span></p>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" lang="EN-US">I learn something new every time. However, it may not be true.</span></p>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" lang="EN-US">If I interpret your images properly, the fastest electrons are the longest. However, relativistic shortening should shrink the length. I had expected the electron to 'pancake' in the direction
of motion. You show the opposite. Is the pancake only in the electron's frame and the appearance from our frame is one of an extended structure? If both, do they cancel and, in reality, it is still spherical?</span></p>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Andrew</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 7:36 PM, Chip Akins <<a href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="color:purple">chipakins@gmail.com</span></a>>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Hi Richard</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">So it is a bit more difficult to visualize exactly what is going on from the graphics with velocity.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">We increase the velocity is in steps from<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">zero through 0.9988c.</b></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">From the Z axis the illustration looks like:</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Showing the reduced radius with velocity.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">But when we look at the model slightly off axis (Z axis) we see this:</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">So this is a set of nested electron models with different velocities, each starting from the same point (upper right of the illustration). These are drawn from an external observers frame and are not
shown in the electron’s reference frame.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">In the electron’s reference frame we would see closure to the trajectory, but in this reference frame, the trajectory (since it is moving) is not closed.</span></div>
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<b class=""><span class="" style="font-size:11pt">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt">General [mailto:</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><a href="mailto:general-bounces%2Bchipakins" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:purple">general-bounces+chipakins</span></a></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt">=</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><a href="mailto:gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:purple">gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt">]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On
Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Richard Gauthier<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday, May 21, 2015 6:29 AM</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Electron Torus</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Chip,</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> Please correct a couple of typos in my last email. The TEQ (transluminal energy quantum) moves on the surface of a torus, not a helix. Also the first helical radius mentioned should have been Ro
sqrt(2) = 1.414 Ro , not Ro sqrt(2)/2 = 1.414 Ro since sort(2)/2 = 0.707 not 1.414 . Thanks.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> Richard</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">On May 20, 2015, at 6:42 PM, Richard Gauthier <<a href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="color:purple">richgauthier@gmail.com</span></a>>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Chip,</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> Nice graphics!</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> Shouldn’t the electric field lines of an electron at some distance from the electron model be pointing inward linearly towards the electron from infinity on all sides, since the electron's electric
field (due to its electric charge) falls off as 1/r^2 . I don’t understand why the electric field lines appear closed in your diagrams.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> In my original resting electron model the TEQ was a circulating negative electric charge which circulated on the surface of a helix. I called the circulating TEQ a photon-like object since it was
similar to my TEQ model of a photon. I was assuming at that time that the photon in my resting electron model had spin 1, even though I had adjusted the helical radius so that the circulating TEQ generated the magnetic moment of the electron of 1 Bohr magneton,
requiring a helical radius for the TEQ of Ro sqrt(2)/2 = 1.414 Ro which created the spindle torus in my model . So this was actually neither a spin 1 photon (whose radius for a resting electron would have been 2Ro, or a spin 1/2 photon, whose radius for a
resting electron would be Ro, as in the 3D models that you and I generated from the moving electron equations I proposed. Since I currently prefer the model of an electron composed of a spin 1/2 circulating photon, this doesn’t generate the electron’s magnetic
moment of 1 Bohr magneton. But it generates a magnetic moment more than 1/2 Bohr magneton which would be produced by a charge circulating at light speed in a simple double loop of radius Ro. I haven’t done the calculation for the magnetic moment generated
by my spin 1/2 photon model of the electron, but I suspect that it would be 0.707 Bohr magneton (just a guess at this point). The calculation of this magnetic moment from the TEQ trajectory equations for a charged TEQ in the spin 1/2 photon model is relatively
straightforward though.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> By the way, have you looked at the side view of the actual TEQ trajectory at various values of v/c of the electron in the spin 1/2 photon moving-electron model that I proposed (and that you programmed
and graphed in 3D to show how the model size changes as 1/gamma at various values of v/c)? The side view of the TEQ trajectory for a moving electron contains some surprises, at least for me. I thought that at high values of v/c (say 0.99 or 0.999) the TEQ
would just appear from the side view to rotate helically around its reducing and increasingly more linear helical trajectory (whose trajectory reduces as 1/(gamma^2), with the TEQ’s helical radius reducing as 1/gamma. But that’s apparently not what happens.
Could you check this with your 3D program? </span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">On May 19, 2015, at 8:45 AM, Chip Akins <<a href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="color:purple">chipakins@gmail.com</span></a>>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Hi Richard</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">If your spin 1 photon model of the electron is similar to John W and Martin’s model in that the field lines always orient with the negative end outwards (providing for charge) the estimated field distribution
is similar to this illustration. (Equatorial View)</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">(Top View from Z axis)</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Red lines represent negative ends of field lines, Blue lines represent positive, black is the transport radius, faint green line is one circulation at the transport radius.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Photon field amplitude is shown as a cosine function of wavelength/2.</span></div>
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<b class=""><span class="" style="font-size:11pt">From:</span></b><span class="" style="font-size:11pt"> General [</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><a href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:purple">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt">] <b class="">On
Behalf Of </b>Richard Gauthier<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 05, 2015 10:06 AM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b> Re: [General] Electron Torus</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Chip,</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> Perfect! It would also be good to have the pair of tori seen an an angle from above their ‘equator’ to get a more 3-D quality.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">On May 5, 2015, at 6:07 AM, Chip Akins <<a href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="color:purple">chipakins@gmail.com</span></a>>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Hi Richard</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">How do these look?</span></div>
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<b class=""><span class="" style="font-size:11pt">From:</span></b><span class="" style="font-size:11pt"> General [</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><a href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:purple">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt">] <b class="">On
Behalf Of </b>Richard Gauthier<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b> Monday, May 04, 2015 1:18 PM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b> Re: [General] Electron Torus</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Hi Chip,</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> The radius of the circle in the horn torus (spin 1/2 photon model) should visually be (since it is actually) 1/2 of the radius of the circle in the spindle torus (spin 1 photon model) -- the spin
1/2 photon model is smaller than the spin 1 photon model. Thanks! And could you perhaps show the energy quantum trajectory in a different color that the torus background so the trajectory stands out better?</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> Richard</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 10:42 AM, Chip Akins <<a href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="color:purple">chipakins@gmail.com</span></a>>
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<b class=""><span class="" style="font-size:11pt">From:</span></b><span class="" style="font-size:11pt"> General [mailto:</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><a href="mailto:general-bounces%2Bchipakins" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:purple">general-bounces+chipakins</span></a></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt">=</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><a href="mailto:gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:purple">gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt">] <b class="">On
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<b class="">Sent:</b> Monday, May 04, 2015 12:19 PM<br class="">
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<b class="">Subject:</b> Re: [General] Electron Torus</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Hi Chip,</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> Thanks. And finally, the vertical ovals of the tori should be circles because the circulating quantum has the same radius in the vertical and horizontal directions.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> Richard</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">On May 4, 2015, at 9:32 AM, Chip Akins <<a href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="color:purple">chipakins@gmail.com</span></a>>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Hi Richard</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Thank you.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Here you go:</span></div>
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<b class=""><span class="" style="font-size:11pt">From:</span></b><span class="" style="font-size:11pt"> General [</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><a href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:purple">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt">] <b class="">On
Behalf Of </b>Richard Gauthier<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b> Monday, May 04, 2015 10:43 AM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b> Re: [General] Electron Torus</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Hi Chip,</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> Both tori should be symmetrical above and below the z-axis and center on z=0.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">On May 4, 2015, at 8:16 AM, Chip Akins <<a href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="color:purple">chipakins@gmail.com</span></a>>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Hi Richard</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Viewed from the Z axis:</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">And from the equatorial plane:</span></div>
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<b class=""><span class="" style="font-size:11pt">From:</span></b><span class="" style="font-size:11pt"> General [</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><a href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(149,79,114)">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt">] <b class="">On
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<b class="">Sent:</b> Sunday, May 03, 2015 11:07 PM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b> Re: [General] position</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> Here are some equations that relate to the modeling of a circulating photon as an electron. The second and third set include my own model of the photon. The first set doesn’t require a particular
model for the photon, except as mentioned below. The first model is the one that generates the de Broglie wavelength as explained in my article mentioned below.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">1. Here is the set of parametric equations for the helical trajectory of double-looping photon that models a free electron, and whose circular radius for a resting electron is Ro=hbar/2mc. The speed
of the photon along this trajectory is always c. The longitudinal or z-component of the photon’s speed is the electron’s velocity v along the z-axis. The frequency of the photon around the helical axis is proportional to the circulating photon/electron's energy
E=gamma mc^2. The distance of the photon’s helical trajectory from the z-axis for an electron whose speed is v, is proportional to 1/gamma^2. This equation is in my article “The electron is a charged photon with the de Broglie wavelength”. This equation does
not include a particular model of the photon, but assumes that the photon follows the relations c=f lambda, E=hf and p=h/lambda. Both helicities of the helical trajectory are given.</span></div>
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