<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1434038462696_95817"><span>Nick and all,</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1434038462696_95816"><span><br></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1434038462696_95816"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1434038462696_98745">I'm wondering how you are using coherence which in QM appears to have innumerable meanings.</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1434038462696_95816"><span><br></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1434038462696_95681" dir="ltr">Once coherence enters the resonance discussion (SHO) one area we need to look at is Glauber coherent states. </div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1434038462696_95681" dir="ltr"><br></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1434038462696_95681" dir="ltr">Here are a few references...</div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1434038462696_95681" dir="ltr"><br></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1434038462696_95681" dir="ltr"><a href="http://www.pa.msu.edu/~mmoore/Lect22_CohStates.pdf" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1434038462696_98597">http://www.pa.msu.edu/~mmoore/Lect22_CohStates.pdf</a><br></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1434038462696_95681" dir="ltr"><br></div><h3 style="box-sizing: border-box; text-rendering: optimizelegibility; margin-top: 0.2rem; margin-bottom: 1rem; font-family: 'Proxima Nova', 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-weight: 200; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); line-height: 1;" class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1434038462696_96130"><font size="3" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1434038462696_96228">Coherent and Incoherent States of the Radiation Field</font></h3><h5 class="" style="box-sizing: border-box; text-rendering: optimizelegibility; margin-top: 0.2rem; margin-bottom: 2px; font-family: 'Proxima Nova', 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-weight: 400; color: rgb(85, 85, 85); line-height: 1;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1434038462696_96131"><font size="3" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1434038462696_96533">Roy J. Glauber</font></h5><h5 class="" style="box-sizing: border-box; text-rendering: optimizelegibility; margin-top: 0.2rem; margin-bottom: 15px; font-family: 'Proxima Nova', 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-weight: 400; color: rgb(85, 85, 85); line-height: 1;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1434038462696_96132"><font size="3" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1434038462696_96355">Phys. Rev. <span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700; line-height: inherit;" class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1434038462696_96133">131</span>, 2766 – Published 15 September 1963</font></h5><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1434038462696_96663"><a href="http://journals.aps.org/pr/abstract/10.1103/PhysRev.131.2766" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1434038462696_96082" class="" style="">http://journals.aps.org/pr/abstract/10.1103/PhysRev.131.2766</a><font size="3"><br></font></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1434038462696_96664"><br></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1434038462696_96501" dir="ltr"><font size="3" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1434038462696_96506">2005 Nobel: </font><a href="http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/2005/glauber-lecture.html" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1434038462696_96500">http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/2005/glauber-lecture.html</a></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1434038462696_95681" dir="ltr"><font size="3" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1434038462696_96354"><br></font></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1434038462696_95681" dir="ltr"><font size="3"><br></font></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1434038462696_95681" dir="ltr"><font size="3">David</font></div><font size="3"><br> </font><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; margin-top: 5px; padding-left: 5px;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1434038462696_95423"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1434038462696_95422"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1434038462696_95421"> <div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1434038462696_95420"> <hr size="1"> <font size="2" face="Arial"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Nick Green <nick_green@blueyonder.co.uk><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org <br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Thursday, June 11, 2015 10:20 AM<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [General] Photon<br> </font> </div> <div class="y_msg_container" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1434038462696_95553" style="font-size: 16px;"><br><div id="yiv6485564839"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1434038462696_95554">
John D and all.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
In cybernetics we speak of Closure. <br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
The self-confined photon is on a closed orbit which after minor
perturbation becomes toroidal (KAM Theorem supports this concept
<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv6485564839moz-txt-link-freetext" target="_blank" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolmogorov%E2%80%93Arnold%E2%80%93Moser_theorem" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1434038462696_95555">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolmogorov–Arnold–Moser_theorem</a>). <br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
We might call such structure a coherence. Much of its time (depends
on temperature) is in self attractive destructive inerference. When
perturbed to repulsive radiative constructive interference it emits
a photon. If the perturbation is large and the binding coherence
energy is exceeded everything turns back into photons. Some of these
terms, specifically closure and coherence, may be useful in
simplyfing future discussion.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
This may open the door for further consideration of Knots modelling
the more complex repulsions and attractions that make up the
electron sea. Molecular orbitals seem to exhibit these properties.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Best<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
N.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<div class="qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div class="yiv6485564839yqt6281337502" id="yiv6485564839yqt68509"><div class="yiv6485564839moz-cite-prefix" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1434038462696_96138">On 10/06/2015 07:20, John Duffield
wrote:<br clear="none">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
</blockquote></div></div><div class="yiv6485564839yqt6281337502" id="yiv6485564839yqt26579"><style>#yiv6485564839 #yiv6485564839 --
_filtered #yiv6485564839 {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;}
_filtered #yiv6485564839 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
_filtered #yiv6485564839 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
_filtered #yiv6485564839 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
#yiv6485564839
#yiv6485564839 p.yiv6485564839MsoNormal, #yiv6485564839 li.yiv6485564839MsoNormal, #yiv6485564839 div.yiv6485564839MsoNormal
{margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}
#yiv6485564839 a:link, #yiv6485564839 span.yiv6485564839MsoHyperlink
{color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}
#yiv6485564839 a:visited, #yiv6485564839 span.yiv6485564839MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}
#yiv6485564839 span.yiv6485564839apple-converted-space
{}
#yiv6485564839 span.yiv6485564839EmailStyle18
{color:#1F497D;}
#yiv6485564839 .yiv6485564839MsoChpDefault
{font-size:10.0pt;}
_filtered #yiv6485564839 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;}
#yiv6485564839 div.yiv6485564839WordSection1
{}
#yiv6485564839 </style><div><div class="yiv6485564839WordSection1">
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Richard:</span></b></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></b></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">The
511keV photon confines itself. There isn’t anything else
there. It’s like a photon in a box of its own making, see
Martin’s <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.tardyon.de/mirror/hooft/hooft.htm">light
is heavy</a>. Light <i>is</i> displacement current, and
it displaces its own path into a closed path. But then we
don’t call it a photon, we call it an electron. However we
can still diffract it. It still has a wave nature. But it
isn’t moving linearly at c, it’s going round and round at
c. Photon momentum is a measure of resistance to
change-in-motion for a wave moving linearly at c. Electron
mass is a measure of resistance to change-in-motion for a
wave going round and round at c. That’s it. It’s that
simple. Hence <i>the mass of a body is a measure of its
energy-content</i>. That’s what <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/E_mc2/www/">E=mc
²</a> is all about, Einstein even talks about the
electron on the same line as he talks about a body. And
I’m afraid the Higgs mechanism contradicts it. When it’s
an electron, the511keV photon has mass because it’s
interacting with itself, not with cosmic treacle. </span></b></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></b></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Regards</span></b></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">John
D</span></b></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></b></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">
</span></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm;">
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;"> General
[<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv6485564839moz-txt-link-freetext" ymailto="mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Richard Gauthier<br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b> 10 June 2015 02:39<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General
Discussion<br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Photon</span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> </div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Hi John,</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">I think it may be a mistake to call an
object a “confined photon” if you mean that a photon is
“unconfined” and moving linearly with no rest mass until it
becomes “confined” and then the system of “confinement” +
photon has a rest mass and this rest mass is attributed
purely to the “confinement mechanism” and not to the to the
“otherwise free” photon still moving at c while it is being
confined. </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Rather, the rest mass of an object,
whether a circularly moving photon, a helically moving
photon or a linearly moving photon is the real quantitative
measure of its “confinement", so that “confinement” and
“inertia” mean the same thing— both refer to the rest mass
of the object. Someone could claim that a photon moving in
a straight line is also “confined” to move in this straight
line, but this linear confinement carries no rest mass with
it and so you would say that this photon is not confined at
all. Someone could also claim that a photon moving by itself
in a helical trajectory is no more confined than a photon
moving in a straight line — but their rest masses are
different and you would I think say that the helically
moving photon is more confined that the photon moving in a
straight line. Anyone can argue about what one mean by
confinement and how one should measure it. </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">A particular photon moving in a helical
trajectory at any longitudinal speed less than c (such as
the proposed charged photon model of the electron moving at
different relativistic velocities) has a rest mass and this
rest mass is exactly the same rest mass as when the photon
(as seen from a different moving reference frame) moves in a
double-looped circle and you call it an electron. So does
the confinement of an object change when you pass by it at
different speeds? That doesn’t seem logical. And the rest
mass of the helically moving photon is the same rest mass mo
as the rest mass of the corresponding circularly moving
photon, because the rest mass of this confined photon is
relativistically invariant as you say. You might say that
there is a “confining” force in the physical world. But
someone might say that this is just the Higgs field that
gives rest mass to otherwise massless objects. So again,
what is the difference between the rest mass and the degree
of confinement of a particle, if any?</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> best regards, Richard</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> </div>
<div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;">
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">On May 31, 2015, at 5:42 PM, John
Williamson <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:John.Williamson@glasgow.ac.uk" target="_blank" href="mailto:John.Williamson@glasgow.ac.uk">John.Williamson@glasgow.ac.uk</a>>
wrote:</div>
</div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> </div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">Dear
all,<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
I have the feeling that you are getting mixed up
with splitting things into other things as though
this means something. Martin is right. Light remains
light. A photon goes from emitter to absorber ---
boom. If light is in a box it remains light. It
continues, in flight to be rest-massless. It is the
whole system that exhibits the PROPERTIES of a rest
mass, by virtue of the confinement.<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span><br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
The rest-mass is DEFINED as the square root of the
4-momentum squared (in proper units). For any
particle this is just what you get by looking at it
at rest. This is a Lorentz invariant quantity. For a
particle some of this may be rest-mass mass, some
confined field, some the confinement mechanism
itself (whatever that is). It all appears on the
weighing scale.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
In QED this value, for the virtual photons
responsible for electromagnetic attraction or
repulsion may be positive (repulsion) or negative
(attraction). Yes, negative mass! This does not mean
there is an actual little lump of negative mass that
has just come about. You need to consider the whole
process not keep trying to split it into bits like
lego. The value is defined by the properties of the
light AND the box. For virtual particle exchange
attraction one can also see it as field
cancellation. That is the negative bit. It isn't
magic. Just because you can write down an equation
for mass does not make it appear as a bit of mass
with a label "mass" on it!<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Indeed, as light slows in a crystal there is an
energy associated with the photon, but equally with
the (partial) confinement of it by the crystal. It
makes no sense to ascribe this wholly to the one or
the other. If the light circulates with total
internal reflection you could weigh it on a scale.
If it was a short laser pulse the crystal would jump
up and down as it went round and round - in
principle you could measure this too.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
It is just confusing yourself to insist on things
becoming other things, with other properties.
Analogies are nice, but not if they confuse you. A
zig-zagging photon, free to escape up or down, is
confined slightly differently to a wholly confined
one. This is due to the properties of the
confinement- not the properties of the photon. If
its wholly confined - and smooth you will weigh the
whole photon energy as rest mass, even though the
photon is not itself rest-massive.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Regards, John W.</span></div>
<div>
<div align="center" class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="text-align:center;">
<hr align="center" size="2" width="100%"></div>
<div id="yiv6485564839divRpF223806">
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">From:</span></b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;"> </span></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">General
[<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]
on behalf of Mark, Martin van der [<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:martin.van.der.mark@philips.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:martin.van.der.mark@philips.com">martin.van.der.mark@philips.com</a>]<br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>Monday,
June 01, 2015 1:06 AM<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature
of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>Re:
[General] Photon</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Richard, the photon itself,
or light, never has a rest mass, it is going at
light speed, that is what light does. </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">The box plus photon does have
a rest mass, equal to the mass of the box plus
the energy of the photon devided by c squared.</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">You have to be precise with
these things!!!!</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Just read light is heavy of
you want to know hoe reflections work,</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Best, Martin<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Verstuurd vanaf mijn iPhone</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><br clear="none">
Op 1 jun. 2015 om 01:56 heeft Richard Gauthier
<<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com">richgauthier@gmail.com</a>>
het volgende geschreven:</div>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;">
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">John W, John D, and
Martin and others,</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">I agree with John D here:
( "<span style="font-size:11.0pt;">But
check out photon effective mass. If you
slow down a photon to less than c, some of
its energy-momentum is exhibited as mass.
And there’s a sliding scale in between the
two extremes.</span><span style="font-size:11.5pt;">”</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> )</span> If
a photon of energy E has an extended
straight trajectory, it has no rest mass. If
a photon of energy E is reflecting back and
forth perpendicularly in a mirror-box
between parallel mirrors, it has a rest mass
E/c^2. If a photon of energy E=mc^2=hf is
circling in a closed circular loop or
double-loop (as in various models of an
electron) it has rest mass m= E/c^2 = 0.511
MeV/c^2 . I think we all agree on this. </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Now suppose a photon is
zig-zagging between two parallel mirrors
where at each reflection the angle that the
photon makes with a mirror's surface is
Theta. Then the photon has a longitudinal
average velocity between the parallel
mirrors of v = c cos (Theta), or cos (Theta)
= v/c . Theta = 90 degrees corresponds to a
photon reflecting perpendicularly in a
mirror-box where the photon's rest mass m is
E/c^2, and v=0. Theta = 0 degrees
corresponds to a photon traveling in an
extended straight trajectory parallel to the
two mirrors in some direction, and in this
case the photon's rest mass m is zero, and
v=c . I found this morning that for any
Theta between 0 and 90 degrees, a zig-zag
reflecting photon of energy E=hf and angle
Theta has a rest mass of M= (E/c^2) sin
(Theta)= E/(gamma c^2) since when
cos(Theta)=v/c, then sin (Theta) = 1/gamma.
This relationship is the case for
relativistic velocities also. So for example
for a zig-zagging photon of energy E=hf, if
Theta = 30 degrees, then v/c = cos(Theta)=
0.866, sin(Theta) = 0.5 and gamma = 2 . The
rest mass M of this zig-zagging photon of
energy E=hf is then M = E/(gamma c^2) =
hf/(2 c^2) = 0.5 hf/c^2 . </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">This M=(E/c^2) sin(Theta)
relationship for a zig-zagging photon also
applies to the helically circulating (with
helical angle Theta) charged photon model of
the relativistic electron, where the
circulating charged photon of energy
E=hf=gamma m c^2 is always found with this
method to have a rest mass of M = (E/c^2)
sin (Theta) = (gamma m c^2)/(gamma c^2) = m
= 0.511 Mev/c^2.</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">So John D’s sliding scale
for the rest mass M of a zig-zagging photon
of energy E , speed c and longitudinal
velocity v, is M=(E/c^2) sin (Theta) =
E/(gamma c^2). Can anyone verify this
sliding scale relation, or contradict it
(with calculations)?</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> Richard</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;">
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">On May 31, 2015, at
2:01 AM, John Duffield <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:johnduffield@btconnect.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:johnduffield@btconnect.com">johnduffield@btconnect.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
</div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> </div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:10.0pt;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">John
W:</span><span style=""></span></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:10.0pt;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">A
little feedback. IMHO it’s
important, so bear with me:</span><span style=""></span></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="">If it has rest-mass it
is not a photon.<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style=""></span></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">If
you slow down a photon to an
effective speed of zero because you
trap it in a mirror-box, all of its
energy-momentum is exhibited as
mass. Photon momentum is a measure
of resistance to change-in-motion
for a wave moving linearly at c,
whilst electron mass is a measure
of resistance to change-in-motion
for a wave going round and round at
c. But check out photon effective
mass. If you slow down a photon to
less than c, some of its
energy-momentum is exhibited as
mass. And there’s a sliding scale in
between the two extremes. So if the
speed of a photon in free space were
to vary for some reason, its mass
would vary. Of course this doesn’t
happen to photons. But there are
such things as neutrinos. </span><span style=""></span></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="">One must include the
properties of emitter and absorber
as well - these are essential to the
quantisation</span><span style=""></span></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:10.0pt;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">I
disagree with this. The emitter is
an electron, the absorber is an
electron. IMHO the electron is
511keV because of the quantum nature
of light. Imagine kicking a
football. Kick it fast or kick it
slow, the length of your leg is
always the same. IMHO it’s the same
for photon amplitude, and there’s
only one wavelength that will do to
wrap up that amplitude into the spin<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span lang="EN-US" style="">½ spinor that we call
an electron.<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style=""></span></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="">Isolated electrons
cannot emit.<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style=""></span></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="">True, but check out the
Inverse Compton.<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style=""></span></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="">The argument in the
paper I have already posted is
precisely that electromagnetism
remains continuous and un-quantised.<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style=""></span></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="">But light is quantized,
and we make electrons out of it. And
they’re always 511keV electrons.<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style=""></span></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="">electromagnetic energy,
propagated over a distance in space,
must come in "lumps"</span><span style=""></span></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="">An E=hf photon can have
any frequency you like, and any
energy you like. But it has a wave
nature. Space waves. It is a lump.
</span><span style=""></span></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="">Photons are the bit
that do not inter-act.<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style=""></span></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="">Yes they do. Photons
interact with photons in gamma-gamma
pair production. And an electron is
just a photon forever interacting
with itself. Displacing its own path
into a closed path. </span><span style=""></span></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="">Coming back to another
point you raise – you suggest, Chip,
that I should possibly try going to
root two of c and then I’ll get my
numbers to fit.<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style=""></span></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="">Imagine you’re in your
gedanken canoe and a waves comes at
you at the speed of light. You rise
up. At what speed?<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style=""></span></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="">Two reasons: firstly
the zitterbewegung fluid in the
Dirac model is not fields but some
stuff with peculiar properties
defined by the new theory: Spinors.
These have the peculiar property
that you must rotate through 720
degrees to get back to where you
started from.<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style=""></span></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="">That’s what you have to
do to convert a field variation into
a standing field. Imagine a seismic
wave that displaces you 1m left then
1m right. Represent it as a
sine-wave paper strip, like below.
Then turn that into a Mobius strip.
You now have an all-round standing
displacement of 1m.<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style=""></span></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span style=""><image001.jpg> </span></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="">Coming back to a more
advanced theory: one has to explain
why and how charges arise in a
pair-creation process. To do this
one has to understand field properly</span><span style=""></span></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="">IMHO one has to
understand potential and
displacement current, and how a
field-variation is more fundamental
than the electron’s electromagnetic
field.<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style=""></span></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="">Are you charging the
electric field part or the magnetic
field part, for example.</span><span style=""></span></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="">One is the slope of
your canoe, the other is the rate of
change of slope of your canoe.<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style=""></span></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="">For me, the charge
comes about more from, as Chip and
John D are arguing, from a
topological re-configuration of the
field such that it is everywhere
radial in a double looped
configuration. The photon has field.
The field is rectified by the twist
and the turn. The confinement leads
then to a confined object appearing
to be (and actually being) charged.</span><span style=""></span></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="">Well said that man. Why
isn’t this common knowledge? </span><span style=""></span></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="">The turn itself –
essential to the re-configuration of
the field, is engendered in my model
not by a charge, but by<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style=""></span></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="">displacement current.
It does what it says on the can.<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style=""></span></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="">Now, coming back to
numbers, let us say that I did want
Martin and my old model to get the
charge exactly right (for example).<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style=""></span></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="">Try √(ε</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:6.0pt;">0</span><span lang="EN-US" style="">/4πc³).</span><span style=""></span></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:10.0pt;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Regards</span><span style=""></span></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:10.0pt;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">JohnD</span><span style=""></span></div>
<div style="margin-bottom:10.0pt;">
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm;">
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;">From:</span></b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;">General [<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><span style="color:purple;">mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a>]<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></b>John
Williamson<br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>30
May 2015 16:31<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature
of Light and Particles -
General Discussion<br clear="none">
<b>Cc:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>Manohar
.; Nick Bailey; Anthony Booth;
Ariane Mandray; Kyran
Williamson<br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>Re:
[General] Photon</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div style="margin-bottom:10.0pt;">
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style=""> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="">Good morning
everyone,<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Firstly - yes indeed I do not
think I have it precisely right in
the paper I have circulated yet. I
am not in the habit of being
completely right first-time every
time! I'm actually quite pleased
about that - otherwise where would
be the fun? I have certainly not
explained myself well enough yet.
Martin has, already, done a better
job than me, on the nature of the
photon, in his comment yesterday.<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style=""></span></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="">Secondly, though, I
do not agree with Chip that it ok
to put photons on top of one
another, or with Richard that the
solution is to think about charged
photons.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
The problem is description - and
language is such an imprecise tool
- words carry far too much weight
yet you need to use them. More, if
one is going to properly describe
nature in a theory – you need the
actual theory – not just vague
notions that address a single
problem. For me the phrase
“charged photon”, for example, is
an oxymoron. The photon is for me,
by its nature an uncharged and
rest-massless thing. If it has
charge it has rest-mass. If it has
rest-mass it is not a photon. This
is my problem though: I do not own
the word “photon”.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Having a word for "photon" means
that one is tempted to think that
it is a thing. I say it and mean
something – most of you hear
something else (except Martin – he
and I are pretty close on this and
I agree with his description). For
most, the concept separates it
from the complete process of
charge-charge exchange of a
quantum of energy - which is
actually what is going on, and
what is actually observed. So,
when I say the photon is
self-quantised I am not talking
about a little self-contained
quantized EM bullet being emitted
independent of its emitter or
absorber. One must include the
properties of emitter and absorber
as well - these are essential to
the quantisation and it is from
these that one calculates the
(mere) value of the charge and
Plank's constant. It is, as I
argue, the properties of the
emission-absorption process which
give the quantisation. It is the
initial configuration of the
fields, engendered in the emitter
that must modulate the carrier to
a pure zero-rest mass
configuration in order to
propagate. The initial fields in
the emitter must fulfil strict
criteria – corresponding exactly
to those observed physically. They
may only transform with the same
factor as does the frequency (this
is just normal relativity – not an
extra condition). Fields
transform, however, only
perpendicular to the boost,
whereas the 4-vector transforms
only parallel to it. Again, just
the standard relativity of fields
and vectors. If the fields are
right, then they can be
transported by a hypercomplex
exponential which normally
contains rest-mass components and
cannot itself propagate. It
remains at rest at the site of the
emitter (though it may recoil a
bit). I think the reason I am
getting the wrong value for the
constant of Plank is nothing to do
with the velocities I’m using but
comes about because I am assuming
at first that the usual emitter is
an electron – when in fact it is
usually an atom. Isolated
electrons cannot emit. I need now
to brush up on atomic physics,
Next job. Next paper – hopefully.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
No matter. The argument in the
paper I have already posted is
precisely that electromagnetism
remains continuous and
un-quantised. The point is that -
for a long distance exchange of
electromagnetic energy ONLY states
which have certain properties may
propagate. Chief amongst those
properties (for the wave-function
proposed) is that constrained by
this form, electromagnetic energy,
propagated over a distance in
space, must come in "lumps". The
wave-function proposed supports
ONLY a change in frequency. That
is the wave-function I propose
works if, and only if, the energy
transferred is proportional to the
frequency. This is what is new
about it. It only "works" if the
light comes in lumps. It only
propagates strongly constrained
fields. This is not to say that
electromagnetism itself is
quantised - it is not. It remains
free to chirp and stretch and
polarise freely as Martin
explains. It describes only
non-interacting waves NIW, as
Chandra argues. Most of the
physics is still just classical
electromagnetism. Chandra is
mostly right (in my view). Read
his papers! The inter-action is
not between photons, it is between
charges. Photons are the bit that
do not inter-act. This is what NIW
means.</span><span style=""></span></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="">The new theory allows
(actually it requires) the
description of continuous waves,
locally. They just do not
propagate over long distances
(even a few wavelengths!) because
that is excluded at the level of
the first turn (the first
differential). It is the whole
process that exhibits the
quantisation – just as Martin
says. It is just that if light
wants to go anywhere it,
necessarily, starts looking a lot
like a photon. Richard is right to
separate out the different levels
of quantisation as well. It is not
one thing, but the separation of
the continuous into integer units
of various dimension. There is not
one “quantisation” in nature, but
many. The new theory pertains only
the process usually called photon
exchange. The quantisation I am
talking about here is the
quantisation of EM into "photons".<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Now, coming onto that process and
that argument, you say, Chip, that
it should be perfectly possible to
put two photons precisely on top
of one another so that they add
linearly. 1+1=2. Yes – but no.
Such an object is and has to be an
object with a different frequency.
That is the point. This comes to
the heart of the matter and the
heart of the reason I argue the
whole process should come in lumps
defined by the frequency alone.
If it were so that one could put
two photons on top of one another,
one would observe the two
"photons" to be emitted at
precisely the same time in the
same emission event, and absorbed
at precisely the same time and
place in the absorption event.
That is one would propagate two
red (say) photons and get a blue's
worth of energy in the exchange
event now involving two photons.
Now you may want this to be so, it
may feel like a nice friendly
thing photons (which are after all
bosons) should be able to do. Only
problem is that such a notion is
in contradiction with what is
observed experimentally. One could
put a diffraction grating between
source and detector, for example,
such that the photons appeared in
different places according to
their frequency. Place the
detector at the "red" position. No
signal. No di-photon events with
the characteristics of red
photons. Where are they? Try going
to the blue position. There they
are! Appearing as one lump of
energy one at a time. They do have
the doubled energy one would
expect from 1+1= 2 – but they do
not – experimentally- have the
same wavelength, or frequency. You
get only blue ones. This is what
you observe and what has been
observed all along in experiment
since the photo-electric effect.
In your thinking you must be
rigorous enough to bear this in
mind. What is observed in
experiment is what your theory
must parallel. Otherwise it is
just fantasy (fantasy is good!).
To be proper physics, though, it
must not just describe what does
happen. It must also say why what
is observed NOT to happen does not
happen. Too many of the current
batch of theories do describe a
wee bit of nature, but also
predict vast slews of phenomena
that just don’t happen. Not good!
This may have become fashionable
in the last half-century or so. It
is certainly convenient for some
theories as it means they cannot
easily be toppled by pesky
experiment which would otherwise
wipe most of them out. People have
become used to theory predicting
lots of things that do not happen.
This is not good enough for proper
progress. These theories cannot be
used for engineering applications.
One would predict lots of things
to work that would not. We need
precision and rigour. This is why
I appreciate criticism so much.
Thanks Chip! It helps us all get
to the point.</span><span style=""></span></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="">The ultimate "reason"
for the quantisation of the
compete solution I have made up in
the paper is exactly the two
conditions that energies should
add AND that fields should add
LINEARLY. This is what the new
wave-functions do.</span><span style=""></span></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="">It feels that one
should have freedom of thought
(and one does!), but for thinking
to parallel the physical world it
must be constrained, not by one
thinks about nature, but by what
one observes it to do. It must fit
experiment. All of it. In other
words to parallel nature it must
fit the whole of your physical
understanding - all at once. This
is very strongly constrained
thinking. Worse- not all of us
know all of experiment all at once
(especially me!).</span><span style=""></span></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="">Coming back to
another point you raise – you
suggest, Chip, that I should
possibly try going to root two of
c and then I’ll get my numbers to
fit. Now, if I just wanted to get
the numbers to fit this might be
an option. I cannot allow myself
to do this though. Why? Because
light travels at c.
Experimentally. This is not a
floppy condition. It is not a
parameter you can just vary with
no consequence elsewhere. It is
fun to think about it – but in
doing so one moves away from the
whole constraint of the whole of
physics I talked about above. One
goes out in a soft, friendly,
mushy area of thinking where all
things are possible. One goes out
in the world of untamed
imagination. Great! There is
plenty of room for that. I love
fiction! Physics is now so
complicated, however, that such
thinking will rapidly move away
from that which is observed in
very many areas. One is in a world
without proper signposts or fixed
points. This is a very similar
world to the world of string, or
the world of QCD where nothing is
well-defined. One is already lost.<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style=""></span></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="">Coming back to
Richard’s point of the charged
photon. Again one is going into
the mushy – into the mist. Give
the photon an intrinsic charge.
Why not? The answer is, not only
that charge is a divergence
inconsistent with light-speed
motion as I argued earlier, (not a
problem if one has a floppy light
velocity though – such photons
would be, necessarily, not
composed of field and be sub-light
speed), but that it is a mushy
continuous charge thing. One
should observe all sorts of
charges. One does not. One sees
charges only associated with
“particles”. A charged photon
should not close, but should repel
itself. One causes far more
problems with the conjecture than
one solves. The theory must not
only explain what is observed, but
also why other things are NOT
observed.<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style=""></span></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="">That comes to the
other problem. There is no charged
photon theory. No differential
equations describing its motion.
It ends up just being a notion. A
notion, effectively, of charged
fields. Why not just make it a
scalar charge? That is already
complex enough. The theory for
this was explored, for example, by
Dirac himself in the fifties. It
did not lead anywhere (yet, at
least).</span><span style=""></span></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="">Now coming back to
Dirac and his (much earlier)
linear relativistic theory. Dirac,
in his relativistic quantum
mechanics, does indeed integrate
his linear equation and derives a
motion consisting of a quickly
oscillating lightspeed part, the
zitterbewegung and an overall
motion characterised by the normal
energy as a half m v squared
part. Very beautiful. He does not
get them separately – they are the
first two terms in an expansion.
Incidentally this also gets the
de-Broglie wavelength right, with
a doubled Compton frequency nota
bene. The factor of two comes out.
It is not put in a-priori. This is
what happens in a proper
relativistic linear theory. So
what is the problem, why do we not
just pack up go home and go
fishing? Job done. Two reasons:
firstly the zitterbewegung fluid
in the Dirac model is not fields
but some stuff with peculiar
properties defined by the new
theory: Spinors. These have the
peculiar property that you must
rotate through 720 degrees to get
back to where you started from.
This is good in itself – and goes
a long way to describing the
fundamental difference between
fermions and bosons. It is
certainly a big element of the
truth. Understanding these objects
properly, however, has proved
beyond the wit of generations of
physicists (if they are honest) –
including Dirac himself and
Feymann- both of whom were bright
and brave enough to simply say so.
Dirac does so, for example, in his
own book, directly after deriving
the base solutions. Good man.
Others waffle – or put the problem
into simple two-valued groups such
as SU(2). Stick it into simple
maths and forget about it. Make it
an inviolable starting point of
further theory. Bit wimpy – but
safe<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" name="_GoBack" href=""></a>! Moving
spinors – even slowly moving
spinors start mixing with each
other. They are not a
relativistically invariant basis.
Big problem!<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style=""></span></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="">I think the base
problem with the Dirac model is
that it is still too simple – and
I think that the point where Dirac
goes wrong is when he makes two
different identifications with the
same thing. This messes everything
up and leads to, not only
solutions, but also basic
dynamical terms “being difficult
to interpret because they are
complex” - as Dirac says. Where
this comes from is that he has
used, unwittingly, the same square
root of minus one for two
conceptually different things.
Complex indeed, but not complex
enough. And mixed up at that.</span><span style=""></span></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="">Coming back to a more
advanced theory: one has to
explain why and how charges arise
in a pair-creation process. To do
this one has to understand field
properly (at least as the six
components of an antisymettric
tensor – but tensor algebra does
not go far enough (yet) either).
One needs to get going with a
proper field theory – not just
with a loosely based model. If you
are going to charge a photon this
cannot be ad-hoc. Are you charging
the electric field part or the
magnetic field part, for example.
Are you adding a 4-vector (charge
is the first component of the
4-current) to the six-vector? Just
what is it, exactly, that you are
proposing? How do you propose to
modify the undelying theory to
accommodate your conjecture?</span><span style=""></span></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="">For me, the charge
comes about more from, as Chip and
John D are arguing, from a
topological re-configuration of
the field such that it is
everywhere radial in a double
looped configuration. The photon
has field. The field is rectified
by the twist and the turn. The
confinement leads then to a
confined object appearing to be
(and actually being) charged.</span><span style=""></span></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="">The turn itself –
essential to the re-configuration
of the field, is engendered in my
model not by a charge, but by a
dynamical scalar rest-mass term in
conjunction with the electric
component of the field. This is a
seventh component in addition to
the six components of the EM
field. You may also see it as an
element of energy. I agree with
you partially here, that this is
fundamental stuff – but so is
field and field is different. It
is not a scalar.<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style=""></span></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="">The resulting
composite object is fermionic in
that it a double-turn –a
fundamental fermion. It is charged
in that it can inter-act and
exchange energy. In isolation, it
exhibits a radial electric field –
as does a charge. Why would you
need to complicate things by
wanting the poor photon to be
charged as well? You do not need
it! How are you ever going to
calculate the charge from first
principles when you put a random
amount of it in to begin with? You
are going to get the charge of the
photon, plus or minus the charge
engendered by the topology and the
confinement. Why? I think at this
point one is doubly lost. One has
had to give up the idea that EM
propagates at lightspeed and one
has also arbitrarily assigned a
charge to an imagined “charged
photon” – an object which is not
observed in the real world.
Further, one has lost the
possibility of a theory to work
with as there is no theory of the
charged photon with equations like
the Maxwell equations, or the
Schroedinger equation, or the
Dirac equation. One is then triply
lost.</span><span style=""></span></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="">Now, coming back to
numbers, let us say that I did
want Martin and my old model to
get the charge exactly right (for
example). There is a simple way to
do this without too much fuss and
without varying the lightspeed or
introducing a charge to the
photon. Just allow the ratio of
the minor to the major axes of the
torus to vary. If zero – one gets
the charge slightly less than q. A
bit more – hey presto- just right.
More still … one can wind it up to
about 20 times the charge
observed. Why is this not a
result? Why does this not fix the
ratio of minor to major. Well –
for example could vary all sorts
of other things – why not flatten
it slightly? Why not put it in a
cubical box (this value is then
damn close –less than a percent!).
Why not stick a hole in it – like
a spindle? Why not make it
pear-shaped (this is not as daft
as it sounds and may end up being
the answer!).</span><span style=""></span></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="">Yes – you can do
anything in your mind. The problem
is that process is futile unless
one has a proper theory, or some
experiment which can distinguish
these things. Now, clearly, I’m
hoping that the new theory I
propose may, ultimately, provide
the answer. My second choice would
be that the extension of the
Bateman method, which Martin is
pursuing, does the trick. Maybe
these will converge or merge with
some other thinking in the group
(even better!). Perhaps we will
find some seminal experiment which
fixes some aspect of it. Perhaps
the experiment has already been
done and one or other of you know
about it.</span><span style=""></span></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="">There is a lot of
work between where I am now and
there though, and perhaps not
enough life and energy left in me
to pursue it as much as I would
like, (squished as I am by a pile
of exams – though the marking is
now nearly finished). The work to
come requires developing a canon
of work similar to that produced
by dozens of the greats in
non-relativistic quantum mechanics
in the 1930’s – except the base
equations are much more
complicated than the simple
Schroedinger equation. We have
equations, but we need to find
solutions to the equations.
Plenty of work to do! I’m hoping
to convince a few folk with enough
talent and energy to start getting
stuck in to this programme. The
process can, and probably will,
throw up problems with the
original conception and
formulation. I agree here with
Chip! No problem! If it is wrong
– modify it or throw it out and
make up a new one. That is the
proper application of the
scientific method.</span><span style=""></span></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="">Anyway this has
turned into too much of an opus.
Though it was started in the
morning it is now afternoon and
time for me to go and get on with
some proper work. Marking awaits!</span><span style=""></span></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="">Bye for now,</span><span style=""></span></div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="">John W.</span><span style=""></span></div>
<div align="center" class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="text-align:center;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">
</span><hr align="center" size="2" width="100%"></div>
<div id="yiv6485564839divRplyFwdMsg">
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">From:</span></b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;"> </span></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">General
[<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><span style="color:purple;">general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a>]
on behalf of Richard Gauthier [<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><span style="color:purple;">richgauthier@gmail.com</span></a>]<br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>Saturday,
May 30, 2015 2:59 PM<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature
of Light and Particles - General
Discussion<br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>Re:
[General] Photon</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">John
and Martin,</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">
Thanks for your
encouragement. The electron
is a photon going round and
round in the case of a
resting electron, otherwise
it is a photon going round
and round and forward in
some kind of helical motion,
in which case it is not a
standing field in this
reference frame. Whether or
not the charge of a charged
photon moves at the speed of
light depends on the
particular model of the
photon that one has. The
relativistic
charged-photon/electron
model does not require a
particular photon model.The
charge that is detected,
like the electron mass that
is detected, may be moving
at sub-light speed. Mass is
not more fundamental than
energy, and is proposed to
be composed of light-speed
energy in the case of the
electron.</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">
Richard</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;">
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">On
May 30, 2015, at 5:03
AM, John Duffield <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:johnduffield@btconnect.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:johnduffield@btconnect.com"><span style="color:purple;">johnduffield@btconnect.com</span></a>>
wrote:</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Can
anyone clearly explain
why a charged photon of
spin 1/2 hbar and rest
mass 0.511MeV/c^2 is not
the missing link between
the uncharged photon and
the electron?<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Yes,
I can. The electron is
a 511keV photon going
round and round. It’s
a charged particle<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span><i>because</i><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>it’s
a photon going round
and round. The photon
moving linearly is a
field variation, but
when it’s going round
and round, it’s a
standing field. That’s
why it has mass too.
It’s like<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.researchgate.net/publication/273419950_Light_is_Heavy"><span style="color:purple;">the photon In a box</span></a><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>.
Only it’s a box of its
own making. Light
displaces its own path
into a closed path,
because light is
displacement current.
And it does what it
says on the can.
Because space waves. </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Regards</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">John
D</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">PS:
Counter-rotating
vortices repel,<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span><u>co</u>-rotating
vortices attract, see<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.scribd.com/doc/68152826/On-Vortex-Particles-Fiasco-Press-Journal-of-Swarm-Scholarship#scribd"><span style="color:purple;">On Vortex Particles</span></a><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>by
David St John. They
ain’t called spinors
for nothing!<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm;">
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;">From:</span></b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;">General
[<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><span style="color:purple;">mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a>]<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Mark,
Martin van der<br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>29 May 2015 23:47<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature
of Light and
Particles -
General Discussion<br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Photon</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Richard,
yes, thank you.<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">That
is indeed a very good
remark, you are
probably very right.<br clear="none">
Let me think about it
a bit more,<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Best,<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Martin<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Verstuurd vanaf mijn
iPhone<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span lang="EN-US"><br clear="none">
Op 29 mei 2015 om 21:45
heeft Richard Gauthier
<<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><span style="color:purple;">richgauthier@gmail.com</span></a>>
het volgende geschreven:</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Chip,
John and Martin,<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">
I think you
gentlemen are onto
something. A
photon has three
related levels of
quantization
(E=hf, p=h/lambda
and spin = hbar) —
perhaps only the
third is truly
quantized in the
sense of having a
discrete value. An
electron has two
more levels of
discrete
quantization
(charge and rest
mass) which may be
closely related to
its spin 1/2 hbar.
The electron’s
charge may be
closely related to
its spin hbar/2 in
the case of the
electron, but not
the case of the
neutrino). An
electron gains
further levels of
discrete
quantization (its
energy
eigenvalues) by
being bound in an
atom. The more
discrete quantum
levels a quantum
has, the more it
is “bound” to a
material
condition. Can
anyone clearly
explain why a
charged photon of
spin 1/2 hbar and
rest mass
0.511MeV/c^2 is
not the missing
link between the
uncharged photon
and the electron?<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">
Richard<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">On
May 29, 2015,
at 12:07 PM,
Chip Akins
<<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com"><span style="color:purple;">chipakins@gmail.com</span></a>>
wrote:<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Hi
Martin<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">With
your
experience and
depth of
understanding
regarding
photons, and
the evidence,
I am of course
inclined to
agree with you
regarding the
nature of
photons.<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Regarding:
“<span style="font-size:11.0pt;">How
and why that
works the same
for radio
waves and
gamma rays, is
a mystery.
Well this bit
is my personal
opinion, of
course.</span>”<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">There
is perhaps a
difference
between the
interactions
we observe
when using
longer
wavelength
radio waves as
compared to
the
particle-sized
gamma rays.
The radio
waves are a
source of
field
influence
which can
cause electron
drift, just as
a DC field can
move
electrons, but
at the scale
of the
electron, or
even the
electron’s
“orbit” in an
atom, the
frequency of
the radio wave
is far less
“important”
than the
frequency of a
gamma ray
would be. The
resonances of
the particle
would be less
likely to be
significantly
influenced by
the radio
wave, but the
radio wave
would still
exert a force
on the
electron.
Radio waves
are generally
detected by
measuring the
movement of
electrons in
conductive
materials
where the
electrons in
the materials
are fairly
easy to move.
It seems
likely that it
takes at least
the motion of
one electron
in the
transmitting
antenna to
induce any
motion of an
electron in a
receiving
antenna,
assuming the
same
configuration
of transmitter
and receiver
antennae. But
the incident
field on the
receiving
antenna may
not be an
integral value
of “photon
energy”.<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Is
this why you
refer to a
“continuum
wave”?
Because the
absorber only
uses what is
can use of the
available
energy? So
that a photon
may actually
contain more
energy than is
absorbed in an
interaction?<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Chip<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm;">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">From:</span></b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">General
[<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><span style="color:purple;">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a>]<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Mark,
Martin van der<br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, May 29, 2015 12:42 PM<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and Particles -
General
Discussion<br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Photon</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Dear
Chip,<br clear="none">
now you are
really getting
there for
sure, those
questions and
statements are
at the right
level to begin
with. But your
kind of
understanding
certainly
converges with
my ideas.</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">That
me be good or
bad, but I
would judge it
as good. ;-)</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">See
for extra
comments
below…</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Cheers,
Martin</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span lang="DE" style="font-size:10.0pt;">Dr.
Martin B. van
der Mark</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">Principal
Scientist,
Minimally
Invasive
Healthcare</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">Philips
Research
Europe -
Eindhoven</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">High
Tech Campus,
Building 34
(WB2.025)</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">Prof.
Holstlaan 4</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">5656
AE Eindhoven,
The
Netherlands</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">Tel:
+31 40 2747548</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm;">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">From:</span></b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;"> </span></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">General
[</span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">]<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Chip
Akins<br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>vrijdag 29 mei 2015 15:45<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>'Nature of Light and Particles -
General
Discussion'<br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Photon</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">H
John W<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Thank
you. One
reason for
asking the
question and
pursuing the
thought
process, was
to try to
further
illustrate the
lack of any
explanation so
far which
supports the
strict
self-quantization
of photons.
This has been
leading me to
think that the
source for
quantization
is the spin ½
configuration
of fermions.
(Which would
act as
quantizers
both while
emitting and
absorbing). If
this is true
then it means
that, for a
photon, E=hv
only holds
true because
of the emitter
and absorber.<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">MvdM:
This may be
exactly right.</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Regarding
the
uncertainty
principle:<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">If
we take a
single point
snapshot of a
sinusoidal
function we
are very
uncertain
about its
frequency, the
more time we
spend sampling
the wave the
more certain
we become of
its frequency.
Now if we are
using
sinusoidal
waves to
create
particles,
many of the
properties of
the particles
will be
uncertain with
our
measurements,
because the
measurements
we can take
disturb the
system, and
are only valid
for brief
times or
spaces before
the
information is
no longer
valid, due to
measurement.
Because when
we set up a
measurement,
we create
conditions
where discrete
waves and
fields will
interact,
creating an
energy
exchange which
occurs in a
very finite
timeframe,
disturbing
completely
what we are
measuring.
This
correlation to
the
uncertainty
principle is
one of the
reasons that I
feel fields
and waves are
the best
candidate for
the
fundamental
makeup of
particles.
Fields and
waves in these
configurations
naturally
create an
uncertainty in
measurement
which
correlates
exactly with
the observed,
understood,
and measured
uncertainties.
The hydrogen
atom is such a
nice tool for
modeling and
understanding
these issues.<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">MvdM:
yes and this
kind of
uncertainty is
given by what
is called the
Fourier limit
amended with
hbar</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Of
course the use
of the word
orbit to
describe the
electron’s
state in an
atom is too
ambiguous to
actually
describe its
state. The
electron
exists in a
space
surrounding
the nucleus,
and spins
about it, but
it’s more like
the electron
surrounds the
nucleus and
less like an
orbit.<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">MvdM:
true, and this
is why
detailed
orbital
calculations
in a photon
model for the
electron are
totally
futile; only a
real theory
will tell.</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">So
what I am
getting to is
that the
different
“spin modes”
of the photon
and the
electron are
significant.
I think the
photon has
what we may
call a
symmetric
field spin
mode, where it
spins about
the point
between the
positive and
negative field
lines, making
it charge
neutral. But
the electron’s
principal spin
is a
non-symmetrical
field spin
mode, with the
point between
the positive
and negative
fields
displaced from
the spin axis,
giving it
charge.
Apparently
this has other
important
effects as
well. It
seems this
spin mode
allows the
electron to be
quantized
based on
energy
density,
unlike the
photon.<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">The
underlying
reason I am
asking these
questions is
related to the
formulation
for field
equations.
There seems to
be a
difference
between the
behavior of
the fields in
the photon and
the
quantization
behavior of
the fields in
fermions. The
spin
configuration
seems to be
the cause for
the forces
which create
quantization.<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">MvdM:
Yes and the
reason is that
the electron
needs binding
forces and
nonlinearity,
the “free”
photon doesn’t</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">But
back to the
photon: Since
the photon
cannot be
quantized by
its internal
energy
density, does
it spin due to
the spin
angular
momentum
imparted by
the emitter?
Is the photon
actually not
internally
quantized at
all? That is
to say, is
there no
inherent
mechanism
within the
photon itself
which imposed
a specific
quantization?
Is the
relationship
E=hv imposed
only at the
emission or
absorption?
And therefore
can we create
photons
without spin?
Or can we
create photons
where E=hv is
not true? And
are photons
really
particles at
all, or are
they just
waves, which
seem like
particles
because of
their
interaction
with the
quantization
of emitters
and absorbers.<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">MvdM:
Good
questions, I
go for waves.
The photon is
merely a
quantum of
energy that is
taken up by
the absorber
from a
continuum
wave. It is
not a particle
by it self,
and doen’t
need to have
the machinery
on-board to
keep itself
together or be
quantized or
what. It is
just a Maxwell
wave. But this
Maxwell wave
can only be
emitted and
absorbed
according to
the rules of
(boundary
conditions
imposed by)
emitter and
absorber. How
and why that
works the same
for radio
waves and
gamma rays, is
a mystery.
Well this bit
is my personal
opinion, of
course.</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">While
we could view
many of the
question as
rhetorical it
seems that we
may need to
understand and
answer them as
literal.
Chandra,
Martin, All?<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Chip<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm;">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">From:</span></b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">General
[</span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">]<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></b>John
Williamson<br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday, May 28, 2015 4:29 PM<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and Particles -
General
Discussion<br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Photon</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;">Hi
Chip and
everyone,<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Good thought
but no-
quantisation
cannot be
dependent on
energy
density. This
is what
experiment
tells you -
and is the
beauty of
experiment.
Experimentally
photons can
have any
wave-train
length. The
photon energy,
however, is
related to its
frequency
alone. Photons
from a source
have a
well-defined
energy only if
they are
pretty long
(this is a
consequence of
the
uncertainty
principle).
There are lots
of people in
the group
(Martin and
Chandra for
two) - who
know lots more
about this
than I do and
some who
perform
experiments
interfering,
stretching and
bending light.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Any proper
theory needs
to describe
experiment -
all of it -
not just the
bits we may
happen to know
about!<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Regards, John</span><span style=""></span></div>
<div>
<div align="center" class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="text-align:center;"><span lang="EN-US">
</span><hr align="center" size="2" width="100%"></div>
<div id="yiv6485564839divRpF211216">
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;">From:</span></b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;"> </span></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;">General
[<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><span style="color:purple;">general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a>]
on behalf of
Chip Akins [<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com"><span style="color:purple;">chipakins@gmail.com</span></a>]<br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>Monday, May 25, 2015 4:51 PM<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>'Nature of Light and Particles -
General
Discussion'<br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Photon</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Hi
John W and All<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">While
looking at
quantization
which may be
caused by a
twist term
included with
Maxwell’s
equations, at
least one
puzzle remains
unanswered for
me. The
nature of
photons is
still a bit
difficult to
understand.
It is much
easier to
envision a
photon of a
single
wavelength
than a photon
which is many
wavelengths.
If energy
density is the
cause for
quantization
(spin and
frequency) it
is more
difficult to
see how that
can be so, if
a photon may
have an
arbitrary
number of
cycles, but
have its
energy density
spread out
over all
cycles. What
do you think
the likelihood
is that not
only frequency
but also the
number of
cycles in a
photon is
quantized? If
this is the
case then we
could still
understand how
the correct
spin would
result from
energy density
for each
cycle. But
then we would
have to also
address the
energy density
to twist
relationship
for single
wavelength
structures
like the
electron
models we have
been
creating.???<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">It
seems evident
that
quantization
for frequency
is dependent
upon energy,
and I assumed
it was
therefore due
to energy
density. Which
works nicely
for single
wavelength
photons.
Experiment
seems to
indicate that
we can create
photons, using
various
methods, which
have an
arbitrary
number of
wavelengths.
How can we
physically
correlate this
to photon
frequency
quantization,
when the
energy density
of the photon
has been
spread out
over many
cycles? Is
there some
apparently
“non-local”
mechanism
which couples
the energy of
all cycles in
a single
photon, and
therefore
helps to
retain the
E=hv
relationship?<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Thoughts?<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Chip<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm;">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">From:</span></b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">General
[</span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">]<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></b>John
Williamson<br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>Sunday, May 24, 2015 10:46 PM<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and Particles -
General
Discussion<br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Electron Torus</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">Hello,<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Briefly - yes
pi mesons are
real
particles.
They leave
nice long
traces in
cloud or
bubble
chambers. The
rho is equally
real.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Gluons have
never been
observed
directly. The
W and Z are
sufficiently
short-lived
that they are
observed as
so-called
resonances.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Regards, John.</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div align="center" class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="text-align:center;"><span lang="EN-US">
</span><hr align="center" size="2" width="100%"></div>
<div id="yiv6485564839divRpF39921">
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;">From:</span></b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;"> </span></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;">General
[<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><span style="color:purple;">general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a>]
on behalf of
Richard
Gauthier [<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><span style="color:purple;">richgauthier@gmail.com</span></a>]<br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>Sunday, May 24, 2015 11:21 PM<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and Particles -
General
Discussion<br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Electron Torus</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">John
D,<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">
And according
to <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particle"><span style="color:purple;">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particle</span></a> ,
the pi meson
and rho meson
are virtual
particles for
proton-neutron
attraction in
nuclei, as are
the W and Z
bosons for the
weak nuclear
force. Are
gluons, pi
mesons and W
and Z
particles ever
real?<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">On
May 24, 2015,
at 8:58 AM,
John Duffield
<<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:johnduffield@btconnect.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:johnduffield@btconnect.com"><span style="color:purple;">johnduffield@btconnect.com</span></a>>
wrote:<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="">Richard:</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style=""> </span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="">See the<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluon#Confinement"><span style="">Wikipedia
gluon article</span></a><span style="">, note the bit that
says<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></span><i><span lang="EN">as
opposed to
virtual ones
found in
ordinary
hadrons.<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></span></i><span lang="EN" style="">The
gluons in a
proton are
virtual. As in
not real. And
LOL, perhaps
the same is
true of the
quarks!<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span lang="EN" style=""> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span lang="EN" style="">Regards</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span lang="EN" style="">John D<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm;">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">From:</span></b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">General
[</span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">]<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Richard
Gauthier<br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>24 May 2015 16:12<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and Particles -
General
Discussion<br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Electron Torus</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Chip,
Martin, John D
and others,<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">
I suspect
that the
fundamental
quantities of
both spacetime
and
particles/fields
are frequency
(directly
proportional
to the energy
of a particle
and inversely
proportional
to time) and
wavelength
(inversely
proportional
to the
momentum of a
particle and
directly
proportional
to space).
Spin is
related to
energy-momentum
topology.
Electric
charge seems
related to
topology.
Particles
with rest mass
are composed
of charged
photons and
related
speed-of-light
particles like
charged gluons
(normal gluons
are
electrically
uncharged but
have color
charge while
quarks have
both
electrical
charge and
color charge.)
And I suspect
that the
energy quantum
(composing
both
speed-of-light
particles and
rest-mass
particles) is
the unifying
link between
spacetime and
particles/fields
(and therefore
quantum
mechanics/QED/QCD/quantum
gravity) and
may be the
precursor as
well as the
sustainer of
both.<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">
Richard<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">On
May 24, 2015,
at 7:06 AM,
Mark, Martin
van der <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:martin.van.der.mark@philips.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:martin.van.der.mark@philips.com"><span style="color:purple;">martin.van.der.mark@philips.com</span></a>>
wrote:<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;">John
D, </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;">I
fully agree
with your
reply to Chip,
thanks for the
details!</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;">Please
join us at the
bar;-)</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;">Cheers
three!</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;">Martin<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Verstuurd
vanaf mijn
iPhone</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;"><br clear="none">
Op 24 mei 2015
om 15:56 heeft
John Duffield
<</span><span lang="EN-US"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:johnduffield@btconnect.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:johnduffield@btconnect.com"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;">johnduffield@btconnect.com</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;">>
het volgende
geschreven:</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;word-spacing:0px;">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Chip:</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">I’m
blue, you’re
black:</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">As
all of you
know, after
Relativity was
introduced and
adopted, the
popular belief
for a while,
was that space
was empty, and
that a media
of space was
not required.
Now however it
seems that
most
physicists
have accepted
that space is
a media, with
quantum
attributes,
and some level
of energy
density. <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">That
popular belief
was a
cargo-cult
false belief,
because
Einstein made
it clear in
his 1920
Leyden
Address that
space was the
“aether” of
general
relativity. He
made it clear
that space was
not some
emptiness, but
instead was a
thing that is
“conditioned”
by a massive
body such as a
star.</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">If
space is a
media, what
would we
perceive which
is different
from space
being empty?<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">That
popular belief
was a
cargo-cult
belief,
because
Einstein made
it clear in
his 1920 </span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://einsteinpapers.press.princeton.edu/vol7-trans/192?highlightText=%22neither%20homogeneous%22"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Leyden
Address</span></a><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">that
space was the
“aether” of
general
relativity,
and space was
not empty.</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Some
would say
there is no
perceptible
difference.
But is that
precisely
true?<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">No.
Like Einstein
said in<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.rain.org/%7Ekarpeles/einsteindis.html"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">1929</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">,
a field is a
state of
space.</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">If
space is a
media, it
implies a
preferred
reference
frame in
space. This
is an item
which would be
difficult, or
perhaps
impossible to
detect, but
for one item.
If space is a
media with a
preferred
reference
frame, then
clocks in that
reference
frame would be
the fastest
clocks
possible in
the universe. <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">There’s
also the<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_microwave_background#CMBR_dipole_anisotropy"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">CMB
reference
frame</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">.
It’s preferred
in that it
tells you your
speed through
the universe.
And whilst it
isn’t an
absolute frame
in the strict
sense, the
universe is as
absolute as it
gets.</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">One
thing which
would alter
the ability to
test this is a
gross frame
dragging of
space around
massive bodies
or
concentrations
of mass.<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">See<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/newsandevents/pressreleases/galaxy_sized_twist/"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">the
asymmetric
Kerr metric as
a source of CP
violation</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">.
It’s to do
with galactic
frame-dragging.</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">If
space is a
media, and if
frame dragging
does occur<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">It’s
a popscience
myth that it
isn’t a
medium,
electromagnetic
waves do not
propagate
because an
electric wave
creates a
magnetic wave
and vice
versa. I’m
confident that
frame dragging
does occur,
and that the
electron
electromagnetic
field is a
fierce example
of it.</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><b>A
definition of
TIME is the
underlying
objective of
this line of
questions.</b>
For I see two
possibilities,
one is that
time is an
inherent
property of
space and, as
the current
relativity
teaches, a
fourth
dimension in
our
“spacetime”.
The other is
that time is
simply the
rate at which
particles can
interact,
caused by the
fact that
fields can
only propagate
at a finite
velocity, and
that we are
made of
particles
which are
circularly
confined
fields.<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">I
feel the first
explanation is
less likely
because it
does not show
cause, it does
not tell us
why time is
part of space,
just that it
is. The
second
explanation is
the one I
currently
prefer because
it is a simple
consequence of
the nature of
space and
particles, it
shows cause.<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">I
prefer it too,
and so did
Einstein. See<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.physicsdiscussionforum.org/time-explained-t3.html"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Time
Explained</span></a><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">and<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/World-without-Time-Forgotten-Einstein/dp/0465092942"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">A
World Without
Time: the
forgotten
legacy of
Godel and
Einstein</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">.<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Is
time truly a
fourth
dimension at
the lowest
level of
analysis of
space?<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">No.
We live in a
world of space
and motion.
Our time
dimension is
derived from
motion. It’s a
dimension in
the sense of
measure, not
in the sense
of freedom of
motion.<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Regards</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">John
D</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm;">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">From:</span></b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">General
[</span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">]<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Chip
Akins<br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>24 May 2015 14:24<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>'Nature of Light and Particles -
General
Discussion'<br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Electron Torus</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Hi
All<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">We
are working on
the
foundations of
physics.
Studying and
trying to
decipher the
result of
experiment in
a causal
manner.<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">As
we do that it
keeps bringing
me back to the
nature of
space itself.
John M has
made some good
points about
starting from
the makeup of
space and
working our
way up from
there. John D
has
communicated a
solid and
basic approach
to many of the
issues. Many
of us have
proposed
models, field
formulations,
and a host of
other possible
explanations
for what we
observe.<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">As
we reflect on
what we have
done and what
we still need
to do, there
are some
things which
may still need
to be
addressed and
answered
before we can
make progress
in certain
areas.<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">For
example, the
nature of
space and
time, are
fundamental to
understanding
physics. Some
of us feel we
have a
reasonable
handle on
this, and it
is a very
basic part of
what we are
doing, but I
am thinking
that we do not
yet have it
quite right.
For the
endeavor we
have
undertaken, I
think close is
not good
enough.<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">First
I want to
state clearly
that I do not
yet propose to
have the
answers to the
nature of
space, all I
have is
conjecture so
far.<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">As
all of you
know, after
Relativity was
introduced and
adopted, the
popular belief
for a while,
was that space
was empty, and
that a media
of space was
not required.
Now however it
seems that
most
physicists
have accepted
that space is
a media, with
quantum
attributes,
and some level
of energy
density. <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">However
many of the
subtle
suggestions
engendered
during that
time when it
was perceived
that space was
empty, and
much of the
“foundation”
of relativity
is still based
on there being
no media which
constitutes
space.<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">If
space is a
media, what
would we
perceive which
is different
from space
being empty?
Some would say
there is no
perceptible
difference.
But is that
precisely
true?<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">If
space is a
media, it
implies a
preferred
reference
frame in
space. This
is an item
which would be
difficult, or
perhaps
impossible to
detect, but
for one item.<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">If
space is a
media with a
preferred
reference
frame, then
clocks in that
reference
frame would be
the fastest
clocks
possible in
the universe.
All clocks in
all other
inertial
frames would
be slower. One
thing which
would alter
the ability to
test this is a
gross frame
dragging of
space around
massive bodies
or
concentrations
of mass.<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">It
seems that
relativity has
been tested
with regards
to the slowing
of clocks with
relative
velocity to a
precision of
about 1.6% to
10% depending
on which
experiments
you prefer.
But of course
these tests
are at low
relative
velocities and
only represent
a narrow prat
of the
spectrum of
tests which
would be
required to
absolutely
validate the
entire curve.
And an error
of 1.6% is
still a
substantial
error for this
type of
validation.<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">If
space is a
media, and if
frame dragging
does occur,
again it would
be difficult
to verify the
existence of
the media
using clocks,
depending on
how much frame
dragging there
is. If space
is a media,
how can we
calculate the
frame dragging
and quantify
it?<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><b>A
definition of
TIME is the
underlying
objective of
this line of
questions.</b>
For I see two
possibilities,
one is that
time is an
inherent
property of
space and, as
the current
relativity
teaches, a
fourth
dimension in
our
“spacetime”.
The other is
that time is
simply the
rate at which
particles can
interact,
caused by the
fact that
fields can
only propagate
at a finite
velocity, and
that we are
made of
particles
which are
circularly
confined
fields.<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">I
feel the first
explanation is
less likely
because it
does not show
cause, it does
not tell us
why time is
part of space,
just that it
is. The
second
explanation is
the one I
currently
prefer because
it is a simple
consequence of
the nature of
space and
particles, it
shows cause.<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">One
thing I think
we must
remember as we
construct a
physical model
is that we are
dealing with
the
fundamentals
and
foundations,
the building
blocks so to
speak, and in
that endeavor
we will
probably find
instances
where a
phenomenon
like the
definition of
time, or the
definition of
charge, or the
definition of
spin, is not
the same at
the micro
level as it is
at our macro
observable
level. If we
do our job
well we will
discover the
causes and
sources of
many of these
types of
phenomena. At
levels below
the causal
level for any
of these
phenomena, the
macro rules no
longer apply
in full.<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">After
saying that, a
question would
naturally
arise, if time
as we measure
it is merely
the result of
the
interaction of
particles, how
and when do we
incorporate
the dimension
of time in our
calculations?
Is the
development of
time at such a
low level that
we should
include it in
all
calculations,
just as
relativity
teaches? Or
does time come
into play only
at the
particle
level, and the
finite
velocity of
light
predominates
at lower
levels? Is
time truly a
fourth
dimension at
the lowest
level of
analysis of
space? Or does
it just appear
to be that way
from our
perspectives
due to the
nature of our
particulate
construction
and
measurements?<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Any
and all
opinion and
argument is
eagerly
appreciated.
If you could
please let me
know your take
on this and
the reasons
you feel that
way I will be
grateful.<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Chip<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm;">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">From:</span></b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">General
[</span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">]<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></b>John
Williamson<br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, May 22, 2015 8:02 AM<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and Particles -
General
Discussion<br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Electron Torus</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;">Hello
Chip,<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Have been
meaning to say
for some time:
you are
producing some
beautiful
models.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Would be good
to talk at
some stage.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Regards. John
(W)</span><span style=""></span></div>
<div>
<div align="center" class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="text-align:center;"><span lang="EN-US">
</span><hr align="center" size="2" width="100%"></div>
<div id="yiv6485564839divRpF393921">
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;">From:</span></b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;"> </span></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;">General
[</span><span lang="EN-US"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;">]
on behalf of
Chip Akins [</span><span lang="EN-US"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">chipakins@gmail.com</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;">]<br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, May 22, 2015 1:59 PM<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>'Nature of Light and Particles -
General
Discussion'<br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Electron Torus</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Hi
Richard<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Sorry
I was modeling
what I though
was the spin 1
photon model
of the
electron.<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">This
is what I
perceive to be
your spin ½
photon model
of the
electron to be
with
velocity.
Same velocity
steps as
before.<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Nested
set of models,<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><image001.png><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Slow
trajectory
lines, purple,
faster
trajectory
lines tending
toward green.<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Here
is the code
for the
electron’s
reference
frame for the
above graphic:<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">X(ii)=Roc*(1/y^2+(1/y)*cosd(y*c*(t)/Roc))*cosd(y*c*(t)/Roc);</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">Y(ii)=Roc*(1/y^2+(1/y)*cosd(y*c*(t)/Roc))*sind(y*c*(t)/Roc);</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">Z(ii)=(Roc/y)*sind(y*c*(t)/Roc);</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Note:
there is still
a very small
electron model
(with velocity
0.9988c) at
the center of
this graphic.
In this model
the
contraction is
in all
directions,
not just
longitudinally.
I think this
is correct,
but it does
not agree with
some
interpretations
of
relativity.
It is also
difficult to
see how this
model, without
spiral fields,
would look the
same to a
moving
observer when
the electron
is “at rest”. <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">And
the model is
of course not
really
spherical.<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Does
this match
your results?<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Can
you share the
graphics model
you have done?<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Chip<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm;">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">From:</span></b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">General
[</span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">]<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Richard
Gauthier<br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, May 22, 2015 7:31 AM<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and Particles -
General
Discussion<br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Electron Torus</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">John
D., Chip and
Andrew,<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">
Isn’t it the
case that in
standard
physics
(experimentally
confirmed) the
measured spin
of an electron
is relative to
the motion of
the observer
of the
electron, just
as the
observed
momentum of an
electron is
relative to
the motion of
the observer
of the
electron? If
an observer
moving west to
east with a
relativistic
velocity v1
passes a
“stationary”
electron (in
some reference
frame) , the
electron has
an observed
momentum (when
it measured)
going west,
and a spin
either up or
down (when it
is measured)
in the
east-west
direction and
a de Broglie
wavelength
corresponding
to the
relative
velocity v1,
while when an
observer
moving
relativistically
south to north
with velocity
v2 passes a
“stationary"
electron , the
electron has
an observed
momentum (when
it is
measured)
going south, a
spin that is
up or down
(when it is
measured) in
the
north-south
direction, and
a de Broglie
wavelength
corresponding
to its
relative
velocity v2.
(In QM,
velocity,
spin and de
Broglie
wavelength
probably can’t
all be
measured at
the same
time). <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">The
relativistic
energy-momentum
equation for
the electron
E^2 = p^2 c^2
+ m^2 c^4
applies to the
electron
described
above when
observed by
two observers
with two
different
relativistic
velocities
compared to
the electron.
I showed in my
article “the
electron is a
charged photon
with the de
Broglie
wavelength”
that the same
relativistic
energy-momentum
equation
applies to a
helically
moving
double-looping
photon that
may compose an
electron,
where E is the
energy of the
photon (the
same as the
total energy
of the
electron
composed by
the photon), p
is the
longitudinal
momentum of
the helically
moving photon
(the same as
the momentum p
of the
electron being
modeled), E/c
is the total
momentum of
the photon
along its
helical path,
and mc is the
transverse
momentum of
the helically
moving photon,
which
contributes to
the electron’s
spin up or
spin down
value hbar/2
in the case of
a slow moving
electron
(modeled by
the
double-looping
photon). So
every electron
observed to
have a
momentum p
will in this
view also have
a spin hbar/2
up or down in
the direction
of its
momentum. <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Also,
when a photon
is Doppler
shifted-due to
relative
motion of the
light source
away from or
towards the
observer, the
observed
wavelength of
the photon is
lengthened or
shortened
accordingly.
Doesn’t this
imply that the
length of the
whole photon
(if it
consists of a
certain number
of
wavelengths)
is also
lengthened or
shortened
accordingly?<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Richard<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">On
May 22, 2015,
at 12:06 AM,
John Duffield
<<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:johnduffield@btconnect.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:johnduffield@btconnect.com"><span style="color:purple;">johnduffield@btconnect.com</span></a>>
wrote:<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">David:</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Why
don’t photons
get length
contracted?
Because
they’re just
waves in space
moving at the
speed of waves
in space. A
ripple in a
rubber mat
doesn’t get
length
contracted,
nor do waves
in space. Then
when you make
those waves go
round and
round, they
still don’t
get
length-contracted.
Then when you
move past them
fast, they
still don’t
get length
contracted.
You might say
the path of
those waves is
different, but
it isn’t, they
didn’t change,
you did. And
if you boil
yourself down
to a single
electron, and
boil that down
to a ring,
then draw
circles and
helixes, I
think it gets
to the bottom
of things.<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Chip:</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Yes,
I’m certain
relative
velocity is a
determining
factor. But
note that “we”
are made of
electrons and
things, so
IMHO it’s best
to start with
two particles,
such as the
electron and
the positron.
If you set
them down with
no initial
relative
motion they
move linearly
together, and
we talk of
electric
force. </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"><image005.jpg></span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">However
if you threw
the postiron
over the top
of the
electron
they’d move
together and
go around one
another,
whereupon we
talk of
magnetic
force. Note
that this is
relative
velocity, not
relativistic
velocity. I’ve
seen people<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/65335/how-do-moving-charges-produce-magnetic-fields"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">explain
the magnetic
field around
the
current-in-the-wire
using length
contraction</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">,
but IMHO
that’s a fairy
tale, and I
prefer a<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/184055/atomic-explanation-of-magnetic-field/184079?noredirect=1#comment388570_184079"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">“screw”
answer</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">.
</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Regards</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">John
D</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm;">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">From:</span></b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">General
[</span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">]<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Chip
Akins<br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>21 May 2015 21:39<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>'Nature of Light and Particles -
General
Discussion'<br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Electron Torus</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Hi
John D<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Regarding…<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Sorry,
I don’t think
that can be
right because
you could go
past an
electron at
.9988c.</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Yes,
I am coming to
think that
maybe the
spiral fields
caused by
limited field
propagation
velocity,
might play a
larger role
than I had
first
considered.<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">I
think Martin
was onto this
aspect
already.<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Wondering
if relative
velocity is a
factor in
determining
what portion
of the spiral
field we
detect or
interact with?
And if so, how
that might
work.<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><image006.png><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">The
earlier
electron model
graphics are
created from
the math that
Richard
developed for
his spin ½
electron.<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Chip<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm;">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">From:</span></b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">General
[</span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">]<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></b>John
Duffield<br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday, May 21, 2015 3:15 PM<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>'Nature of Light and Particles -
General
Discussion'<br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Electron Torus</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Chip:</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Sorry,
I don’t think
that can be
right because
you could go
past an
electron at
.9988c.</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Andrew:</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Photons
don’t get
length
contracted,
and electrons
are made out
of photons in
pair
production. If
you simplify
the electron
to a photon
going round in
a circle, then
take one point
on the
circumference,
you would say
it describes a
circular path.
But when you
move past the
electron fast,
you would say
that point was
describing a
helical path.
Then when you
consider all
points of the
circumference,
you might say
the electron
was a cylinder
rather than a
circle. And if
you<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span><i>were</i><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>that electron, everything to you
would look
length-contracted,
because you’re
smeared out.
If I was a
motionless
electron
you’d say I
was length
contracted.
But I might
say<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span><i>I<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></i>was the one moving, and that<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span><i>you’re</i><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>length-contracted.
</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Regards</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">John</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm;">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">From:</span></b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">General
[</span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">]<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Chip
Akins<br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>21 May 2015 17:52<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>'Nature of Light and Particles -
General
Discussion'<br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Electron Torus</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Hi
Andrew<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Images
from the
electron’s
reference
frame.<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">For
Richard’s
model using
the spin 1
photon, and
drawing in the
electron’s
reference
frame, his
math produces
the following
image for a
set of nested
electron
models with
velocities up
to 0.9988c.<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><image007.png><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">The
small grey
sphere in the
center is the
electron model
for 0.9988c.<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">So
in this model
the electron
shrinks in all
directions,
but remains
principally
spherical when
viewed from
the electron’s
reference
frame.<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Chip<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">From:</span></b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">General
[</span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">]<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Andrew
Meulenberg<br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday, May 21, 2015 11:15 AM<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and Particles -
General
Discussion;
Andrew
Meulenberg<br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Electron Torus</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span lang="EN-US">Dear Chip,</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span lang="EN-US">I learn something new
every time.
However, it
may not be
true.</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span lang="EN-US">If I interpret your
images
properly, the
fastest
electrons are
the longest.
However,
relativistic
shortening
should shrink
the length. I
had expected
the electron
to 'pancake'
in the
direction of
motion. You
show the
opposite. Is
the pancake
only in the
electron's
frame and the
appearance
from our frame
is one of an
extended
structure? If
both, do they
cancel and, in
reality, it is
still
spherical?</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Andrew<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">On
Thu, May 21,
2015 at 7:36
PM, Chip Akins
<<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com"><span style="color:purple;">chipakins@gmail.com</span></a>>
wrote:<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt;">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Hi
Richard<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">So
it is a bit
more difficult
to visualize
exactly what
is going on
from the
graphics with
velocity.<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">We
increase the
velocity is in
steps from<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span><b>zero through 0.9988c.</b><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">From
the Z axis the
illustration
looks like:<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><image008.jpg><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Showing
the reduced
radius with
velocity.<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">But
when we look
at the model
slightly off
axis (Z axis)
we see this:<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><image009.jpg><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">So
this is a set
of nested
electron
models with
different
velocities,
each starting
from the same
point (upper
right of the
illustration).
These are
drawn from an
external
observers
frame and are
not shown in
the electron’s
reference
frame.<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">In
the electron’s
reference
frame we would
see closure to
the
trajectory,
but in this
reference
frame, the
trajectory
(since it is
moving) is not
closed.<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Chip<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm;">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">From:</span></b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">General
[mailto:</span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:general-bounces%2Bchipakins" target="_blank" href="mailto:general-bounces%2Bchipakins"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">general-bounces+chipakins</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">=</span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">]<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Richard
Gauthier<br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday, May 21, 2015 6:29 AM</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><br clear="none">
<b>To:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and Particles -
General
Discussion<br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b><span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Electron Torus<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Chip,<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">
Please
correct a
couple of
typos in my
last email.
The TEQ
(transluminal
energy
quantum) moves
on the surface
of a torus,
not a helix.
Also the first
helical radius
mentioned
should have
been Ro
sqrt(2) =
1.414 Ro , not
Ro sqrt(2)/2 =
1.414 Ro since
sort(2)/2 =
0.707 not
1.414 .
Thanks.<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">
Richard<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">On
May 20, 2015,
at 6:42 PM,
Richard
Gauthier <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><span style="color:purple;">richgauthier@gmail.com</span></a>> wrote:<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Chip,<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">
Nice
graphics!<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">
Shouldn’t
the electric
field lines of
an electron at
some distance
from the
electron model
be pointing
inward
linearly
towards the
electron from
infinity on
all sides,
since the
electron's
electric field
(due to its
electric
charge) falls
off as 1/r^2 .
I don’t
understand why
the electric
field lines
appear closed
in your
diagrams.<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">
In my
original
resting
electron model
the TEQ was a
circulating
negative
electric
charge which
circulated on
the surface of
a helix. I
called the
circulating
TEQ a
photon-like
object since
it was similar
to my TEQ
model of a
photon. I was
assuming at
that time that
the photon in
my resting
electron model
had spin 1,
even though I
had adjusted
the helical
radius so that
the
circulating
TEQ generated
the magnetic
moment of the
electron of 1
Bohr magneton,
requiring a
helical radius
for the TEQ of
Ro sqrt(2)/2 =
1.414 Ro which
created the
spindle torus
in my model .
So this was
actually
neither a spin
1 photon
(whose radius
for a resting
electron would
have been 2Ro,
or a spin 1/2
photon, whose
radius for a
resting
electron would
be Ro, as in
the 3D models
that you and I
generated from
the moving
electron
equations I
proposed.
Since I
currently
prefer the
model of an
electron
composed of a
spin 1/2
circulating
photon, this
doesn’t
generate the
electron’s
magnetic
moment of 1
Bohr magneton.
But it
generates a
magnetic
moment more
than 1/2 Bohr
magneton which
would be
produced by a
charge
circulating at
light speed in
a simple
double loop of
radius Ro. I
haven’t done
the
calculation
for the
magnetic
moment
generated by
my spin 1/2
photon model
of the
electron, but
I suspect that
it would be
0.707 Bohr
magneton (just
a guess at
this point).
The
calculation of
this magnetic
moment from
the TEQ
trajectory
equations for
a charged TEQ
in the spin
1/2 photon
model is
relatively
straightforward
though.<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">
By the way,
have you
looked at the
side view of
the actual TEQ
trajectory at
various values
of v/c of the
electron in
the spin 1/2
photon
moving-electron
model that I
proposed (and
that you
programmed and
graphed in 3D
to show how
the model size
changes as
1/gamma at
various values
of v/c)? The
side view of
the TEQ
trajectory for
a moving
electron
contains some
surprises, at
least for me.
I thought that
at high values
of v/c (say
0.99 or 0.999)
the TEQ would
just appear
from the side
view to rotate
helically
around its
reducing and
increasingly
more linear
helical
trajectory
(whose
trajectory
reduces as
1/(gamma^2),
with the TEQ’s
helical radius
reducing as
1/gamma. But
that’s
apparently not
what happens.
Could you
check this
with your 3D
program? <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">
Richard<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">On
May 19, 2015,
at 8:45 AM,
Chip Akins
<<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com"><span style="color:purple;">chipakins@gmail.com</span></a>>
wrote:<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Hi
Richard<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">If
your spin 1
photon model
of the
electron is
similar to
John W and
Martin’s model
in that the
field lines
always orient
with the
negative end
outwards
(providing for
charge) the
estimated
field
distribution
is similar to
this
illustration.
(Equatorial
View)<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><image001.jpg><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">(Top
View from Z
axis)<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><image002.jpg><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">(45
degree
elevation
view)<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><image004.jpg><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Red
lines
represent
negative ends
of field
lines, Blue
lines
represent
positive,
black is the
transport
radius, faint
green line is
one
circulation at
the transport
radius.<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Photon
field
amplitude is
shown as a
cosine
function of
wavelength/2.<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Chip<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm;">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> General
[</span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">] <b>On
Behalf Of </b>Richard
Gauthier<br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday,
May 05, 2015
10:06 AM<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b> Nature
of Light and
Particles -
General
Discussion<br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b> Re:
[General]
Electron Torus</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Chip,<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">
Perfect! It
would also be
good to have
the pair of
tori seen an
an angle from
above their
‘equator’ to
get a more 3-D
quality.<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">
Richard<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">On
May 5, 2015,
at 6:07 AM,
Chip Akins
<<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com"><span style="color:purple;">chipakins@gmail.com</span></a>>
wrote:<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Hi
Richard<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">How
do these look?<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><image003.png><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><image001.jpg><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Chip<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> General
[</span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">] <b>On
Behalf Of </b>Richard
Gauthier<br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b> Monday,
May 04, 2015
1:18 PM<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b> Nature
of Light and
Particles -
General
Discussion<br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b> Re:
[General]
Electron Torus</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Hi
Chip,<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">
The radius of
the circle in
the horn torus
(spin 1/2
photon model)
should
visually be
(since it is
actually) 1/2
of the radius
of the circle
in the spindle
torus (spin 1
photon model)
-- the spin
1/2 photon
model is
smaller than
the spin 1
photon model.
Thanks! And
could you
perhaps show
the energy
quantum
trajectory in
a different
color that the
torus
background so
the trajectory
stands out
better?<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">
Richard<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">On
Mon, May 4,
2015 at 10:42
AM, Chip Akins
<<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com"><span style="color:purple;">chipakins@gmail.com</span></a>>
wrote:<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt;">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Hi
Richard<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><image004.png><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><image005.png><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Chip<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm;">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> General
[mailto:</span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:general-bounces%2Bchipakins" target="_blank" href="mailto:general-bounces%2Bchipakins"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">general-bounces+chipakins</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">=</span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">] <b>On
Behalf Of </b>Richard
Gauthier<br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b> Monday,
May 04, 2015
12:19 PM<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b> Nature
of Light and
Particles -
General
Discussion<br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b> Re:
[General]
Electron Torus</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Hi
Chip,<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">
Thanks. And
finally, the
vertical ovals
of the tori
should be
circles
because the
circulating
quantum has
the same
radius in the
vertical and
horizontal
directions.<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">
Richard<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">On
May 4, 2015,
at 9:32 AM,
Chip Akins
<<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com"><span style="color:purple;">chipakins@gmail.com</span></a>>
wrote:<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Hi
Richard<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Thank
you.<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Here
you go:<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><image001.png><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><image002.png><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Chip<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm;">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> General
[</span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">] <b>On
Behalf Of </b>Richard
Gauthier<br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b> Monday,
May 04, 2015
10:43 AM<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b> Nature
of Light and
Particles -
General
Discussion<br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b> Re:
[General]
Electron Torus</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Hi
Chip,<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">
Both tori
should be
symmetrical
above and
below the
z-axis and
center on z=0.<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">
Richard<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">On
May 4, 2015,
at 8:16 AM,
Chip Akins
<<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com"><span style="color:purple;">chipakins@gmail.com</span></a>>
wrote:<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Hi
Richard<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><image001.jpg><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Viewed
from the Z
axis:<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><image002.jpg><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">And
from the
equatorial
plane:<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><image003.jpg><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Chip<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm;">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> General
[</span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">] <b>On
Behalf Of </b>Richard
Gauthier<br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday,
May 03, 2015
11:07 PM<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b> Nature
of Light and
Particles -
General
Discussion<br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b> Re:
[General]
position</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">Chip
and all,<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">
Here are some
equations that
relate to the
modeling of a
circulating
photon as an
electron. The
second and
third set
include my own
model of the
photon. The
first set
doesn’t
require a
particular
model for the
photon, except
as mentioned
below. The
first model is
the one that
generates the
de Broglie
wavelength as
explained in
my article
mentioned
below.<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">1.
Here is the
set of
parametric
equations for
the helical
trajectory of
double-looping
photon that
models a free
electron, and
whose
circular
radius for a
resting
electron is
Ro=hbar/2mc.
The speed of
the photon
along this
trajectory is
always c. The
longitudinal
or z-component
of the
photon’s speed
is the
electron’s
velocity v
along the
z-axis. The
frequency of
the photon
around the
helical axis
is
proportional
to the
circulating
photon/electron's
energy E=gamma
mc^2. The
distance of
the photon’s
helical
trajectory
from the
z-axis for an
electron whose
speed is v, is
proportional
to 1/gamma^2.
This equation
is in my
article “The
electron is a
charged photon
with the de
Broglie
wavelength”.
This equation
does not
include a
particular
model of the
photon, but
assumes that
the photon
follows the
relations c=f
lambda, E=hf
and
p=h/lambda.
Both
helicities of
the helical
trajectory are
given.<span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">
If you no
longer wish to
receive
communication
from the
Nature of
Light and
Particles
General
Discussion
List at </span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;">richgauthier@gmail.com</span></a><span style="font-size:9.0pt;"><br clear="none">
<a href="</span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/richgauthier%40gmail.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;">http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/richgauthier%40gmail.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1</span></a><span style="font-size:9.0pt;">"><br clear="none">
Click here to
unsubscribe<br clear="none">
</a></span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">
If you no
longer wish to
receive
communication
from the
Nature of
Light and
Particles
General
Discussion
List at </span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;">richgauthier@gmail.com</span></a><span style="font-size:9.0pt;"><br clear="none">
<a href="</span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/richgauthier%40gmail.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;">http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/richgauthier%40gmail.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1</span></a><span style="font-size:9.0pt;">"><br clear="none">
Click here to
unsubscribe<br clear="none">
</a></span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span lang="EN-US"><br clear="none">
_______________________________________________<br clear="none">
If you no
longer wish to
receive
communication
from the
Nature of
Light and
Particles
General
Discussion
List at <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><span style="color:purple;">richgauthier@gmail.com</span></a><br clear="none">
<a href="<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/richgauthier%40gmail.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1"><span style="color:purple;">http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/richgauthier%40gmail.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1</span></a>"><br clear="none">
Click here to
unsubscribe<br clear="none">
</a></span><span style=""></span></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">
If you no
longer wish to
receive
communication
from the
Nature of
Light and
Particles
General
Discussion
List at </span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;">richgauthier@gmail.com</span></a><span style="font-size:9.0pt;"><br clear="none">
<a href="</span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/richgauthier%40gmail.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;">http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/richgauthier%40gmail.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1</span></a><span style="font-size:9.0pt;">"><br clear="none">
Click here to
unsubscribe<br clear="none">
</a></span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">
If you no
longer wish to
receive
communication
from the
Nature of
Light and
Particles
General
Discussion
List at </span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;">richgauthier@gmail.com</span></a><span style="font-size:9.0pt;"><br clear="none">
<a href="</span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/richgauthier%40gmail.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;">http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/richgauthier%40gmail.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1</span></a><span style="font-size:9.0pt;">"><br clear="none">
Click here to
unsubscribe<br clear="none">
</a></span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span lang="EN-US"><br clear="none">
_______________________________________________<br clear="none">
If you no
longer wish to
receive
communication
from the
Nature of
Light and
Particles
General
Discussion
List at<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:mules333@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:mules333@gmail.com"><span style="color:purple;">mules333@gmail.com</span></a><br clear="none">
<a href="<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/mules333%40gmail.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1"><span style="color:purple;">http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/mules333%40gmail.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1</span></a>"><br clear="none">
Click here to
unsubscribe<br clear="none">
</a></span><span style=""></span></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">
If you no
longer wish to
receive
communication
from the
Nature of
Light and
Particles
General
Discussion
List at<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;">richgauthier@gmail.com</span></a><span style="font-size:9.0pt;"><br clear="none">
<a href="</span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/richgauthier%40gmail.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;">http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/richgauthier%40gmail.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1</span></a><span style="font-size:9.0pt;">"><br clear="none">
Click here to
unsubscribe<br clear="none">
</a></span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;word-spacing:0px;">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">
If you no
longer wish to
receive
communication
from the
Nature of
Light and
Particles
General
Discussion
List at</span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:martin.van.der.mark@philips.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:martin.van.der.mark@philips.com"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;">martin.van.der.mark@philips.com</span></a><span style="font-size:9.0pt;"><br clear="none">
<a href="</span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/martin.van.der.mark%40philips.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;">http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/martin.van.der.mark%40philips.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1</span></a><span style="font-size:9.0pt;">"><br clear="none">
Click here to
unsubscribe<br clear="none">
</a></span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div align="center" class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal" style="text-align:center;"><span lang="EN-US">
</span><hr align="center" size="2" width="100%"></div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;">The
information
contained in
this message
may be
confidential
and legally
protected
under
applicable
law. The
message is
intended
solely for the
addressee(s).
If you are not
the intended
recipient, you
are hereby
notified that
any use,
forwarding,
dissemination,
or
reproduction
of this
message is
strictly
prohibited and
may be
unlawful. If
you are not
the intended
recipient,
please contact
the sender by
return e-mail
and destroy
all copies of
the original
message.<br clear="none">
</span><image001.png><image001.png><span style="font-size:9.0pt;">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">
If you no
longer wish to
receive
communication
from the
Nature of
Light and
Particles
General
Discussion
List at<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;">richgauthier@gmail.com</span></a><span style="font-size:9.0pt;"><br clear="none">
<a href="</span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/richgauthier%40gmail.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;">http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/richgauthier%40gmail.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1</span></a><span style="font-size:9.0pt;">"><br clear="none">
Click here to
unsubscribe<br clear="none">
</a></span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">
If you no
longer wish to
receive
communication
from the
Nature of
Light and
Particles
General
Discussion
List at<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;">richgauthier@gmail.com</span></a><span style="font-size:9.0pt;"><br clear="none">
<a href="</span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/richgauthier%40gmail.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;">http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/richgauthier%40gmail.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1</span></a><span style="font-size:9.0pt;">"><br clear="none">
Click here to
unsubscribe<br clear="none">
</a></span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">
If you no
longer wish to
receive
communication
from the
Nature of
Light and
Particles
General
Discussion
List at<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;">richgauthier@gmail.com</span></a><span style="font-size:9.0pt;"><br clear="none">
<a href="</span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/richgauthier%40gmail.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;">http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/richgauthier%40gmail.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1</span></a><span style="font-size:9.0pt;">"><br clear="none">
Click here to
unsubscribe<br clear="none">
</a></span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> <span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">
If you no longer
wish to receive
communication from
the Nature of Light
and Particles
General Discussion
List at<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:martin.van.der.mark@philips.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:martin.van.der.mark@philips.com"><span style="color:purple;">martin.van.der.mark@philips.com</span></a><br clear="none">
<a href="<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/martin.van.der.mark%40philips.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1"><span style="color:purple;">http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/martin.van.der.mark%40philips.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1</span></a>"><br clear="none">
Click here to
unsubscribe<br clear="none">
</a><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">
If you no longer wish to
receive communication
from the Nature of Light
and Particles General
Discussion List at<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><span style="color:purple;">richgauthier@gmail.com</span></a><br clear="none">
<a href="<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/richgauthier%40gmail.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1"><span style="color:purple;">http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/richgauthier%40gmail.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1</span></a>"><br clear="none">
Click here to
unsubscribe<br clear="none">
</a></span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">
If you no longer wish to receive
communication from the Nature of Light
and Particles General Discussion List
at<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;">richgauthier@gmail.com</span></a><span style="font-size:9.0pt;"><br clear="none">
<a href="</span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/richgauthier%40gmail.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;">http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/richgauthier%40gmail.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1</span></a><span style="font-size:9.0pt;">"><br clear="none">
Click here to unsubscribe<br clear="none">
</a></span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;">
<div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">
If you no longer wish to receive communication
from the Nature of Light and Particles General
Discussion List at<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:martin.van.der.mark@philips.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:martin.van.der.mark@philips.com">martin.van.der.mark@philips.com</a><br clear="none">
<a href="<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/martin.van.der.mark%40philips.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1">http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/martin.van.der.mark%40philips.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1</a>"><br clear="none">
Click here to unsubscribe<br clear="none">
</a></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">
If you no longer wish to receive communication from
the Nature of Light and Particles General Discussion
List at<span class="yiv6485564839apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;">richgauthier@gmail.com</span></a><span style="font-size:9.0pt;"><br clear="none">
<a href="</span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/richgauthier%40gmail.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;">http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/richgauthier%40gmail.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1</span></a><span style="font-size:9.0pt;">"><br clear="none">
Click here to unsubscribe<br clear="none">
</a></span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div class="yiv6485564839MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<br clear="none">
<fieldset class="yiv6485564839mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br clear="none">
<pre>_______________________________________________
If you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light and Particles General Discussion List at <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv6485564839moz-txt-link-abbreviated" ymailto="mailto:nick_green@blueyonder.co.uk" target="_blank" href="mailto:nick_green@blueyonder.co.uk">nick_green@blueyonder.co.uk</a>
<a href=<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv6485564839moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" target="_blank" href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/nick_green%40blueyonder.co.uk?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1">"http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/nick_green%40blueyonder.co.uk?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1"</a>>
Click here to unsubscribe
</a>
</pre>
<br clear="none">
</div></div></div><br><div class="yqt6281337502" id="yqt25746">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">If you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light and Particles General Discussion List at <a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:davidmathes8@yahoo.com" href="mailto:davidmathes8@yahoo.com">davidmathes8@yahoo.com</a><br clear="none"><a href="<a shape="rect" href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/davidmathes8%40yahoo.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1" target="_blank">http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/davidmathes8%40yahoo.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1</a>"><br clear="none">Click here to unsubscribe<br clear="none"></a><br clear="none"></div><br><br></div> </div> </div> </blockquote> </div></body></html>