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One might say the photon path bends in the electric field of the
pivot and, if energy sufficient, may close to form coherent matter
and anti-matter. So how many spins or sine waves are needed to model
this and what are their frequencies and phase relationhips?<br>
<br>
Best<br>
<br>
N.<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/06/2015 09:20, John Williamson
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:7DC02B7BFEAA614DA666120C8A0260C90246E1A5@CMS08-01.campus.gla.ac.uk"
type="cite">
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<div style="direction: ltr;font-family: Tahoma;color:
#000000;font-size: 10pt;">Hello David and everyone.
<br>
<br>
You are right that most of the models do not cite a mechanism
for changing the nature of the photon to that of the electron.
This is a huge problem. Photon go (fast!) in straight lines.
Electrons just sit there going round and round in circles. They
are very different!<br>
<br>
It is worrying about this and trying to find solutions to it,
that have kept Martin and myself busy for the last couple of
decades. We have made loads of models, and have introduced
forces in several different ways.<br>
<br>
My new theory is one case that does have (self) confinement
forces. The new scalar invariant mass density term, the pivot,
introduces a new factor into the momentum density flow (the
Poynting vector for pure field). The derivative of this is a
radial force - a confinement force in other words. An element of
the Poincare stresses then. In fact the force is such that one
gets precisely a radial electric field for a re-circulating
field and a double-loop (with half-integral spin). Absolutely
beautiful!<br>
<br>
The picture is as follows. No pivot - momentum in straight lines
- pure field photons.<br>
<br>
Bit of pivot, photon moves (a little) helically . no big deal.<br>
<br>
Lots of pivot ... same thing.<br>
<br>
Enough pivot plus initial counter-propagating photons.
Possibility of vortex and anti-vortex. Charge-anticharge pair
both with pivot of same order as magnetic field. Stable,
charged, half-integral spin, recirculating self-confined system.
An electron and a positron.<br>
<br>
Look carefully at the paper I circulated. It is in there. Not
very well explained, obviously. I will do better next time with
all this input!<br>
<br>
Cheers, John.<br>
<div style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #000000;
font-size: 16px">
<hr tabindex="-1">
<div style="direction: ltr;" id="divRpF939444"><font
color="#000000" face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b>
General
[<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]
on behalf of David Mathes [<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:davidmathes8@yahoo.com">davidmathes8@yahoo.com</a>]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 10, 2015 7:55 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General
Discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Photon<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div>
<div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff;
font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;
font-size:16px">
<div><span>John</span></div>
<div><span><br>
</span></div>
<div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433913911068_11269"><span
id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433913911068_11268">I like the
simplicity of the photon in the electron circulating
at c. However, no mechanism is cited for getting from
photon to electron. The evidence is in the stars.
Photons appear to travel a very long way without
turning into electrons. Is this just spontaneous
photon conversion to electron, a whim of nature?</span></div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433913911068_11267"><br>
</div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433913911068_11987">The difficulty
with a c-only velocity in the electron is that it would
seem that c-average velocity would meet the criteria as
well. Now this implies there is may be a Lorentz
contraction, and also the improbability - not
impossibility - of a transluminal photon/quanta within.
Once we have eliminated everything else, whatever
remains no matter how improbable, must be a truth,
perhaps even the truth. </div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433913911068_11988"><br>
</div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433913911068_11988">The
self-interaction aspect smells of acceleration somewhere
in all this. And in a circulating photon one of the few
requirements is to explain conservation of total angular
momentum which seems to be the key criteria especially
with a instant c-velocity only model. Could it be there
is a missed interpretation of averaged c-velocity only
model as a instant c-velocity model. Perhaps we need to
define the total angular momentum within the electron
more clearly and precisely.</div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433913911068_11989" dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433913911068_11989" dir="ltr">IMHO
we need to consider and examine every electron model to
see if there is any acceleration by the photon. </div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433913911068_11989" dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433913911068_11989" dir="ltr">Seriously,
how does on make the leap from a plain photon to the
photon curving and interacting with itself. Is there
some DNA that tells a photon internally to become an
electron? Is there something external acting as a
catalyst? Is there a process which combines both in a
two step process?</div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433913911068_11989" dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433913911068_11989" dir="ltr">Then
there is the question of superposition for uncharge
photons while charged photons as electrons can overlap
under the right conditions and in multiple ways. Of
course this begs the question of when does superposition
fail.</div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433913911068_11989" dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433913911068_11989" dir="ltr">David</div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433913911068_11989" dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433913911068_11989" dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433913911068_11989" dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433913911068_11993"><br>
</div>
<blockquote id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433913911068_10782"
style="border-left:2px solid rgb(16,16,255);
margin-left:5px; margin-top:5px; padding-left:5px">
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style="font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica
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font-size:16px">
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433913911068_10780"
style="font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica
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font-size:16px">
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<hr id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433913911068_11143" size="1">
<font id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433913911068_10784"
face="Arial" size="2"><b><span
style="font-weight:bold">From:</span></b>
John Duffield <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:johnduffield@btconnect.com"><johnduffield@btconnect.com></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b>
'Nature of Light and Particles - General
Discussion'
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org></a>
<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b>
Tuesday, June 9, 2015 11:20 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b>
Re: [General] Photon<br>
</font></div>
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<div class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433913911068_12361"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Richard:</span></b></div>
<div class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433913911068_12350"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></b></div>
<div class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433913911068_12355"><b
id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433913911068_12354"><span
id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433913911068_12353"
style="font-size:11.0pt">The 511keV
photon confines itself. There isn’t
anything else there. It’s like a
photon in a box of its own making, see
Martin’s <a moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow" shape="rect"
href="http://www.tardyon.de/mirror/hooft/hooft.htm"
target="_blank">
light is heavy</a>. Light <i>is</i>
displacement current, and it displaces
its own path into a closed path. But
then we don’t call it a photon, we
call it an electron. However we can
still diffract it. It still has a wave
nature. But it isn’t moving linearly
at c, it’s going round and round at c.
Photon momentum is a measure of
resistance to change-in-motion for a
wave moving linearly at c. Electron
mass is a measure of resistance to
change-in-motion for a wave going
round and round at c. That’s it. It’s
that simple. Hence <i
id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433913911068_14881">the
mass of a body is a measure of its
energy-content</i>. That’s what
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow" shape="rect"
href="http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/E_mc2/www/"
target="_blank">
E=mc ²</a> is all about, Einstein
even talks about the electron on the
same line as he talks about a body.
And I’m afraid the Higgs mechanism
contradicts it. When it’s an
electron, the511keV photon has mass
because it’s interacting with itself,
not with cosmic treacle. </span></b></div>
<div class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></b></div>
<div class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Regards</span></b></div>
<div class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">John D</span></b></div>
<div class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></b></div>
<div class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"></span></div>
<div class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></div>
<div class="qtdSeparateBR"><br>
<br>
</div>
<div class="yiv6573640144yqt5843758027"
id="yiv6573640144yqt25660">
<div>
<div style="border:none;
border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;
padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<div class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"
lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"
lang="EN-US"> General
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]<b>On
Behalf Of </b>Richard Gauthier<br
clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b> 10 June 2015 02:39<br
clear="none">
<b>To:</b> Nature of Light and
Particles - General Discussion<br
clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General]
Photon</span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> </div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">Hi
John,</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">I
think it may be a mistake to call an
object a “confined photon” if you mean
that a photon is “unconfined” and
moving linearly with no rest mass
until it becomes “confined” and then
the system of “confinement” + photon
has a rest mass and this rest mass is
attributed purely to the “confinement
mechanism” and not to the to the
“otherwise free” photon still moving
at c while it is being confined. </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">Rather,
the rest mass of an object, whether a
circularly moving photon, a helically
moving photon or a linearly moving
photon is the real quantitative
measure of its “confinement", so that
“confinement” and “inertia” mean the
same thing— both refer to the rest
mass of the object. Someone could
claim that a photon moving in a
straight line is also “confined” to
move in this straight line, but this
linear confinement carries no rest
mass with it and so you would say that
this photon is not confined at all.
Someone could also claim that a photon
moving by itself in a helical
trajectory is no more confined than a
photon moving in a straight line — but
their rest masses are different and
you would I think say that the
helically moving photon is more
confined that the photon moving in a
straight line. Anyone can argue about
what one mean by confinement and how
one should measure it. </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">A
particular photon moving in a helical
trajectory at any longitudinal speed
less than c (such as the proposed
charged photon model of the electron
moving at different relativistic
velocities) has a rest mass and this
rest mass is exactly the same rest
mass as when the photon (as seen from
a different moving reference frame)
moves in a double-looped circle and
you call it an electron. So does the
confinement of an object change when
you pass by it at different speeds?
That doesn’t seem logical. And the
rest mass of the helically moving
photon is the same rest mass mo as the
rest mass of the corresponding
circularly moving photon, because the
rest mass of this confined photon is
relativistically invariant as you say.
You might say that there is a
“confining” force in the physical
world. But someone might say that this
is just the Higgs field that gives
rest mass to otherwise massless
objects. So again, what is the
difference between the rest mass and
the degree of confinement of a
particle, if any?</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">
best regards, Richard</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<div class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> </div>
<div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;
margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">On
May 31, 2015, at 5:42 PM, John
Williamson <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow" shape="rect"
href="mailto:John.Williamson@glasgow.ac.uk"
target="_blank">John.Williamson@glasgow.ac.uk</a>>
wrote:</div>
</div>
<div class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> </div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">Dear
all,<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
I have the feeling that you
are getting mixed up with
splitting things into other
things as though this means
something. Martin is right.
Light remains light. A photon
goes from emitter to absorber
--- boom. If light is in a box
it remains light. It
continues, in flight to be
rest-massless. It is the whole
system that exhibits the
PROPERTIES of a rest mass, by
virtue of the confinement.<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span><br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
The rest-mass is DEFINED as
the square root of the
4-momentum squared (in proper
units). For any particle this
is just what you get by
looking at it at rest. This is
a Lorentz invariant quantity.
For a particle some of this
may be rest-mass mass, some
confined field, some the
confinement mechanism itself
(whatever that is). It all
appears on the weighing scale.<br
clear="none">
<br clear="none">
In QED this value, for the
virtual photons responsible
for electromagnetic attraction
or repulsion may be positive
(repulsion) or negative
(attraction). Yes, negative
mass! This does not mean there
is an actual little lump of
negative mass that has just
come about. You need to
consider the whole process not
keep trying to split it into
bits like lego. The value is
defined by the properties of
the light AND the box. For
virtual particle exchange
attraction one can also see it
as field cancellation. That is
the negative bit. It isn't
magic. Just because you can
write down an equation for
mass does not make it appear
as a bit of mass with a label
"mass" on it!<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Indeed, as light slows in a
crystal there is an energy
associated with the photon,
but equally with the (partial)
confinement of it by the
crystal. It makes no sense to
ascribe this wholly to the one
or the other. If the light
circulates with total internal
reflection you could weigh it
on a scale. If it was a short
laser pulse the crystal would
jump up and down as it went
round and round - in principle
you could measure this too.<br
clear="none">
<br clear="none">
It is just confusing yourself
to insist on things becoming
other things, with other
properties. Analogies are
nice, but not if they confuse
you. A zig-zagging photon,
free to escape up or down, is
confined slightly differently
to a wholly confined one. This
is due to the properties of
the confinement- not the
properties of the photon. If
its wholly confined - and
smooth you will weigh the
whole photon energy as rest
mass, even though the photon
is not itself rest-massive.<br
clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Regards, John W.</span></div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="text-align:center"
align="center">
<hr align="center" size="2"
width="100%">
</div>
<div
id="yiv6573640144divRpF223806">
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt"> </span></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">General
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
shape="rect"
href="mailto:general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target="_blank">general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]
on behalf of Mark, Martin
van der [<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
shape="rect"
href="mailto:martin.van.der.mark@philips.com"
target="_blank">martin.van.der.mark@philips.com</a>]<br
clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>Monday,
June 01, 2015 1:06 AM<br
clear="none">
<b>To:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature
of Light and Particles -
General Discussion<br
clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>Re:
[General] Photon</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">Richard,
the photon itself, or
light, never has a rest
mass, it is going at light
speed, that is what light
does. </div>
</div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">The
box plus photon does have
a rest mass, equal to the
mass of the box plus the
energy of the photon
devided by c squared.</div>
</div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">You
have to be precise with
these things!!!!</div>
</div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">Just
read light is heavy of you
want to know hoe
reflections work,</div>
</div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">Best,
Martin<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Verstuurd vanaf mijn
iPhone</div>
</div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br clear="none">
Op 1 jun. 2015 om 01:56
heeft Richard Gauthier
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
shape="rect"
href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"
target="_blank">richgauthier@gmail.com</a>>
het volgende geschreven:</div>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;
margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">John
W, John D, and Martin
and others,</div>
</div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">I
agree with John D
here: ( "<span
style="font-size:11.0pt">But
check out photon
effective mass. If
you slow down a
photon to less than
c, some of its
energy-momentum is
exhibited as mass.
And there’s a
sliding scale in
between the two
extremes.</span><span
style="font-size:11.5pt">”</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> )</span> If
a photon of energy E
has an extended
straight trajectory,
it has no rest mass.
If a photon of energy
E is reflecting back
and forth
perpendicularly in a
mirror-box between
parallel mirrors, it
has a rest mass E/c^2.
If a photon of energy
E=mc^2=hf is circling
in a closed circular
loop or double-loop
(as in various models
of an electron) it has
rest mass m= E/c^2 =
0.511 MeV/c^2 . I
think we all agree on
this. </div>
</div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">Now
suppose a photon is
zig-zagging between
two parallel mirrors
where at each
reflection the angle
that the photon makes
with a mirror's
surface is Theta.
Then the photon has a
longitudinal average
velocity between the
parallel mirrors of v
= c cos (Theta), or
cos (Theta) = v/c .
Theta = 90 degrees
corresponds to a
photon reflecting
perpendicularly in a
mirror-box where the
photon's rest mass m
is E/c^2, and v=0.
Theta = 0 degrees
corresponds to a
photon traveling in an
extended straight
trajectory parallel to
the two mirrors in
some direction, and in
this case the photon's
rest mass m is zero,
and v=c . I found
this morning that for
any Theta between 0
and 90 degrees, a
zig-zag reflecting
photon of energy E=hf
and angle Theta has a
rest mass of M=
(E/c^2) sin (Theta)=
E/(gamma c^2) since
when cos(Theta)=v/c,
then sin (Theta) =
1/gamma. This
relationship is the
case for relativistic
velocities also. So
for example for a
zig-zagging photon of
energy E=hf, if Theta
= 30 degrees, then v/c
= cos(Theta)= 0.866,
sin(Theta) = 0.5 and
gamma = 2 . The rest
mass M of this
zig-zagging photon of
energy E=hf is then M
= E/(gamma c^2) =
hf/(2 c^2) = 0.5
hf/c^2 . </div>
</div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">This
M=(E/c^2) sin(Theta)
relationship for a
zig-zagging photon
also applies to the
helically circulating
(with helical angle
Theta) charged photon
model of the
relativistic electron,
where the circulating
charged photon of
energy E=hf=gamma m
c^2 is always found
with this method to
have a rest mass of M
= (E/c^2) sin (Theta)
= (gamma m c^2)/(gamma
c^2) = m = 0.511
Mev/c^2.</div>
</div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">So
John D’s sliding scale
for the rest mass M of
a zig-zagging photon
of energy E , speed c
and longitudinal
velocity v, is
M=(E/c^2) sin (Theta)
= E/(gamma c^2). Can
anyone verify this
sliding scale
relation, or
contradict it (with
calculations)?</div>
</div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">
Richard</div>
</div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;
margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">On
May 31, 2015, at
2:01 AM, John
Duffield <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
shape="rect"
href="mailto:johnduffield@btconnect.com"
target="_blank">johnduffield@btconnect.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
</div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> </div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:10.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">John W:</span><span
style=""></span></div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:10.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">A little
feedback. IMHO
it’s
important, so
bear with me:</span><span
style=""></span></div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="" lang="EN-US">If it has
rest-mass it
is not a
photon.<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span
style=""></span></div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">If you slow
down a photon
to an
effective
speed of zero
because you
trap it in a
mirror-box,
all of its
energy-momentum
is exhibited
as mass.
Photon
momentum is a
measure of
resistance to
change-in-motion
for a wave
moving
linearly at c,
whilst
electron mass
is a measure
of resistance
to
change-in-motion
for a wave
going round
and round at
c. But check
out photon
effective
mass. If you
slow down a
photon to less
than c, some
of its
energy-momentum
is exhibited
as mass. And
there’s a
sliding scale
in between the
two extremes.
So if the
speed of a
photon in free
space were to
vary for some
reason, its
mass would
vary. Of
course this
doesn’t happen
to photons.
But there are
such things as
neutrinos. </span><span
style=""></span></div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="" lang="EN-US">One must
include the
properties of
emitter and
absorber as
well - these
are essential
to the
quantisation</span><span
style=""></span></div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:10.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">I disagree
with this. The
emitter is an
electron, the
absorber is an
electron. IMHO
the electron
is 511keV
because of the
quantum nature
of light.
Imagine
kicking a
football. Kick
it fast or
kick it slow,
the length of
your leg is
always the
same. IMHO
it’s the same
for photon
amplitude, and
there’s only
one wavelength
that will do
to wrap up
that amplitude
into the spin<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style=""
lang="EN-US">½
spinor that we
call an
electron.<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style=""></span></div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="" lang="EN-US">Isolated
electrons
cannot emit.<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style=""></span></div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="" lang="EN-US">True, but check
out the
Inverse
Compton.<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style=""></span></div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="" lang="EN-US">The argument in
the paper I
have already
posted is
precisely that
electromagnetism
remains
continuous and
un-quantised.<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style=""></span></div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="" lang="EN-US">But light is
quantized, and
we make
electrons out
of it. And
they’re always
511keV
electrons.<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style=""></span></div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="" lang="EN-US">electromagnetic
energy,
propagated
over a
distance in
space, must
come in
"lumps"</span><span
style=""></span></div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="" lang="EN-US">An E=hf photon
can have any
frequency you
like, and any
energy you
like. But it
has a wave
nature. Space
waves. It is a
lump. </span><span
style=""></span></div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="" lang="EN-US">Photons are the
bit that do
not inter-act.<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style=""></span></div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="" lang="EN-US">Yes they do.
Photons
interact with
photons in
gamma-gamma
pair
production.
And an
electron is
just a photon
forever
interacting
with itself.
Displacing its
own path into
a closed path.
</span><span
style=""></span></div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="" lang="EN-US">Coming back to
another point
you raise –
you suggest,
Chip, that I
should
possibly try
going to root
two of c and
then I’ll get
my numbers to
fit.<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span
style=""></span></div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="" lang="EN-US">Imagine you’re
in your
gedanken canoe
and a waves
comes at you
at the speed
of light. You
rise up. At
what speed?<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style=""></span></div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="" lang="EN-US">Two reasons:
firstly the
zitterbewegung
fluid in the
Dirac model is
not fields but
some stuff
with peculiar
properties
defined by the
new theory:
Spinors. These
have the
peculiar
property that
you must
rotate through
720 degrees to
get back to
where you
started from.<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style=""></span></div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="" lang="EN-US">That’s what you
have to do to
convert a
field
variation into
a standing
field. Imagine
a seismic wave
that displaces
you 1m left
then 1m right.
Represent it
as a sine-wave
paper strip,
like below.
Then turn that
into a Mobius
strip. You now
have an
all-round
standing
displacement
of 1m.<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span
style=""></span></div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=""><image001.jpg> </span></div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="" lang="EN-US">Coming back to
a more
advanced
theory: one
has to explain
why and how
charges arise
in a
pair-creation
process. To do
this one has
to understand
field properly</span><span
style=""></span></div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="" lang="EN-US">IMHO one has to
understand
potential and
displacement
current, and
how a
field-variation
is more
fundamental
than the
electron’s
electromagnetic
field.<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span
style=""></span></div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="" lang="EN-US">Are you
charging the
electric field
part or the
magnetic field
part, for
example.</span><span
style=""></span></div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="" lang="EN-US">One is the
slope of your
canoe, the
other is the
rate of change
of slope of
your canoe.<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style=""></span></div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="" lang="EN-US">For me, the
charge comes
about more
from, as Chip
and John D are
arguing, from
a topological
re-configuration
of the field
such that it
is everywhere
radial in a
double looped
configuration.
The photon has
field. The
field is
rectified by
the twist and
the turn. The
confinement
leads then to
a confined
object
appearing to
be (and
actually
being)
charged.</span><span
style=""></span></div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="" lang="EN-US">Well said that
man. Why isn’t
this common
knowledge? </span><span
style=""></span></div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="" lang="EN-US">The turn itself
– essential to
the
re-configuration
of the field,
is engendered
in my model
not by a
charge, but by<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style=""></span></div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="" lang="EN-US">displacement
current. It
does what it
says on the
can.<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span
style=""></span></div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="" lang="EN-US">Now, coming
back to
numbers, let
us say that I
did want
Martin and my
old model to
get the charge
exactly right
(for example).<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style=""></span></div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="" lang="EN-US">Try √(ε</span><span
style="font-size:6.0pt" lang="EN-US">0</span><span style="" lang="EN-US">/4πc³).</span><span
style=""></span></div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:10.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Regards</span><span
style=""></span></div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:10.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">JohnD</span><span
style=""></span></div>
<div
style="margin-bottom:10.0pt">
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="border:none;
border-top:solid
#E1E1E1 1.0pt;
padding:3.0pt
0cm 0cm 0cm">
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"
lang="EN-US">General
[<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
shape="rect"
href="mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target="_blank"><span style="color:purple">mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a>]<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span></b>John Williamson<br
clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>30 May 2015 16:31<br
clear="none">
<b>To:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and
Particles -
General
Discussion<br
clear="none">
<b>Cc:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>Manohar .; Nick
Bailey;
Anthony Booth;
Ariane
Mandray; Kyran
Williamson<br
clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Photon</span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div
style="margin-bottom:10.0pt">
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style=""
lang="EN-US"> </span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="" lang="EN-US">Good morning
everyone,<br
clear="none">
<br
clear="none">
Firstly - yes
indeed I do
not think I
have it
precisely
right in the
paper I have
circulated
yet. I am not
in the habit
of being
completely
right
first-time
every time!
I'm actually
quite pleased
about that -
otherwise
where would be
the fun? I
have certainly
not explained
myself well
enough yet.
Martin has,
already, done
a better job
than me, on
the nature of
the photon, in
his comment
yesterday.<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style=""></span></div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="" lang="EN-US">Secondly,
though, I do
not agree with
Chip that it
ok to put
photons on top
of one
another, or
with Richard
that the
solution is to
think about
charged
photons.<br
clear="none">
<br
clear="none">
The problem is
description -
and language
is such an
imprecise tool
- words carry
far too much
weight yet you
need to use
them. More, if
one is going
to properly
describe
nature in a
theory – you
need the
actual theory
– not just
vague notions
that address a
single
problem. For
me the phrase
“charged
photon”, for
example, is an
oxymoron. The
photon is for
me, by its
nature an
uncharged and
rest-massless
thing. If it
has charge it
has rest-mass.
If it has
rest-mass it
is not a
photon. This
is my problem
though: I do
not own the
word “photon”.<br
clear="none">
<br
clear="none">
Having a word
for "photon"
means that one
is tempted to
think that it
is a thing. I
say it and
mean something
– most of you
hear something
else (except
Martin – he
and I are
pretty close
on this and I
agree with his
description).
For most, the
concept
separates it
from the
complete
process of
charge-charge
exchange of a
quantum of
energy - which
is actually
what is going
on, and what
is actually
observed. So,
when I say the
photon is
self-quantised
I am not
talking about
a little
self-contained
quantized EM
bullet being
emitted
independent of
its emitter or
absorber. One
must include
the properties
of emitter and
absorber as
well - these
are essential
to the
quantisation
and it is from
these that one
calculates the
(mere) value
of the charge
and Plank's
constant. It
is, as I
argue, the
properties of
the
emission-absorption
process which
give the
quantisation.
It is the
initial
configuration
of the fields,
engendered in
the emitter
that must
modulate the
carrier to a
pure zero-rest
mass
configuration
in order to
propagate. The
initial fields
in the emitter
must fulfil
strict
criteria –
corresponding
exactly to
those observed
physically.
They may only
transform with
the same
factor as does
the frequency
(this is just
normal
relativity –
not an extra
condition).
Fields
transform,
however, only
perpendicular
to the boost,
whereas the
4-vector
transforms
only parallel
to it. Again,
just the
standard
relativity of
fields and
vectors. If
the fields are
right, then
they can be
transported by
a hypercomplex
exponential
which normally
contains
rest-mass
components and
cannot itself
propagate. It
remains at
rest at the
site of the
emitter
(though it may
recoil a bit).
I think the
reason I am
getting the
wrong value
for the
constant of
Plank is
nothing to do
with the
velocities I’m
using but
comes about
because I am
assuming at
first that the
usual emitter
is an electron
– when in fact
it is usually
an atom.
Isolated
electrons
cannot emit. I
need now to
brush up on
atomic
physics, Next
job. Next
paper –
hopefully.<br
clear="none">
<br
clear="none">
No matter. The
argument in
the paper I
have already
posted is
precisely that
electromagnetism
remains
continuous and
un-quantised.
The point is
that - for a
long distance
exchange of
electromagnetic
energy ONLY
states which
have certain
properties may
propagate.
Chief amongst
those
properties
(for the
wave-function
proposed) is
that
constrained by
this form,
electromagnetic
energy,
propagated
over a
distance in
space, must
come in
"lumps". The
wave-function
proposed
supports ONLY
a change in
frequency.
That is the
wave-function
I propose
works if, and
only if, the
energy
transferred is
proportional
to the
frequency.
This is what
is new about
it. It only
"works" if the
light comes in
lumps. It only
propagates
strongly
constrained
fields. This
is not to say
that
electromagnetism
itself is
quantised - it
is not. It
remains free
to chirp and
stretch and
polarise
freely as
Martin
explains. It
describes only
non-interacting
waves NIW, as
Chandra
argues. Most
of the physics
is still just
classical
electromagnetism.
Chandra is
mostly right
(in my view).
Read his
papers! The
inter-action
is not between
photons, it is
between
charges.
Photons are
the bit that
do not
inter-act.
This is what
NIW means.</span><span
style=""></span></div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="" lang="EN-US">The new theory
allows
(actually it
requires) the
description of
continuous
waves,
locally. They
just do not
propagate over
long distances
(even a few
wavelengths!)
because that
is excluded at
the level of
the first turn
(the first
differential).
It is the
whole process
that exhibits
the
quantisation –
just as Martin
says. It is
just that if
light wants to
go anywhere
it,
necessarily,
starts looking
a lot like a
photon.
Richard is
right to
separate out
the different
levels of
quantisation
as well. It is
not one thing,
but the
separation of
the continuous
into integer
units of
various
dimension.
There is not
one
“quantisation”
in nature, but
many. The new
theory
pertains only
the process
usually called
photon
exchange. The
quantisation I
am talking
about here is
the
quantisation
of EM into
"photons".<br
clear="none">
<br
clear="none">
Now, coming
onto that
process and
that argument,
you say, Chip,
that it should
be perfectly
possible to
put two
photons
precisely on
top of one
another so
that they add
linearly.
1+1=2. Yes –
but no. Such
an object is
and has to be
an object with
a different
frequency.
That is the
point. This
comes to the
heart of the
matter and the
heart of the
reason I argue
the whole
process should
come in lumps
defined by the
frequency
alone. If it
were so that
one could put
two photons on
top of one
another, one
would observe
the two
"photons" to
be emitted at
precisely the
same time in
the same
emission
event, and
absorbed at
precisely the
same time and
place in the
absorption
event. That is
one would
propagate two
red (say)
photons and
get a blue's
worth of
energy in the
exchange event
now involving
two photons.
Now you may
want this to
be so, it may
feel like a
nice friendly
thing photons
(which are
after all
bosons) should
be able to do.
Only problem
is that such a
notion is in
contradiction
with what is
observed
experimentally.
One could put
a diffraction
grating
between source
and detector,
for example,
such that the
photons
appeared in
different
places
according to
their
frequency.
Place the
detector at
the "red"
position. No
signal. No
di-photon
events with
the
characteristics
of red
photons. Where
are they? Try
going to the
blue position.
There they
are! Appearing
as one lump of
energy one at
a time. They
do have the
doubled energy
one would
expect from
1+1= 2 – but
they do not –
experimentally-
have the same
wavelength, or
frequency. You
get only blue
ones. This is
what you
observe and
what has been
observed all
along in
experiment
since the
photo-electric
effect. In
your thinking
you must be
rigorous
enough to bear
this in mind.
What is
observed in
experiment is
what your
theory must
parallel.
Otherwise it
is just
fantasy
(fantasy is
good!). To be
proper
physics,
though, it
must not just
describe what
does happen.
It must also
say why what
is observed
NOT to happen
does not
happen. Too
many of the
current batch
of theories do
describe a wee
bit of nature,
but also
predict vast
slews of
phenomena that
just don’t
happen. Not
good! This may
have become
fashionable in
the last
half-century
or so. It is
certainly
convenient for
some theories
as it means
they cannot
easily be
toppled by
pesky
experiment
which would
otherwise wipe
most of them
out. People
have become
used to theory
predicting
lots of things
that do not
happen. This
is not good
enough for
proper
progress.
These theories
cannot be used
for
engineering
applications.
One would
predict lots
of things to
work that
would not. We
need precision
and rigour.
This is why I
appreciate
criticism so
much. Thanks
Chip! It helps
us all get to
the point.</span><span
style=""></span></div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="" lang="EN-US">The ultimate
"reason" for
the
quantisation
of the compete
solution I
have made up
in the paper
is exactly the
two conditions
that energies
should add AND
that fields
should add
LINEARLY.
This is what
the new
wave-functions
do.</span><span
style=""></span></div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="" lang="EN-US">It feels that
one should
have freedom
of thought
(and one
does!), but
for thinking
to parallel
the physical
world it must
be
constrained,
not by one
thinks about
nature, but by
what one
observes it to
do. It must
fit
experiment.
All of it. In
other words to
parallel
nature it must
fit the whole
of your
physical
understanding
- all at once.
This is very
strongly
constrained
thinking.
Worse- not all
of us know all
of experiment
all at once
(especially
me!).</span><span
style=""></span></div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="" lang="EN-US">Coming back to
another point
you raise –
you suggest,
Chip, that I
should
possibly try
going to root
two of c and
then I’ll get
my numbers to
fit. Now, if I
just wanted to
get the
numbers to fit
this might be
an option. I
cannot allow
myself to do
this though.
Why? Because
light travels
at c.
Experimentally.
This is not a
floppy
condition. It
is not a
parameter you
can just vary
with no
consequence
elsewhere. It
is fun to
think about it
– but in doing
so one moves
away from the
whole
constraint of
the whole of
physics I
talked about
above. One
goes out in a
soft,
friendly,
mushy area of
thinking where
all things are
possible. One
goes out in
the world of
untamed
imagination.
Great! There
is plenty of
room for that.
I love
fiction!
Physics is now
so
complicated,
however, that
such thinking
will rapidly
move away from
that which is
observed in
very many
areas. One is
in a world
without proper
signposts or
fixed points.
This is a very
similar world
to the world
of string, or
the world of
QCD where
nothing is
well-defined.
One is already
lost.<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span
style=""></span></div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="" lang="EN-US">Coming back to
Richard’s
point of the
charged
photon. Again
one is going
into the mushy
– into the
mist. Give the
photon an
intrinsic
charge. Why
not? The
answer is, not
only that
charge is a
divergence
inconsistent
with
light-speed
motion as I
argued
earlier, (not
a problem if
one has a
floppy light
velocity
though – such
photons would
be,
necessarily,
not composed
of field and
be sub-light
speed), but
that it is a
mushy
continuous
charge thing.
One should
observe all
sorts of
charges. One
does not. One
sees charges
only
associated
with
“particles”. A
charged photon
should not
close, but
should repel
itself. One
causes far
more problems
with the
conjecture
than one
solves. The
theory must
not only
explain what
is observed,
but also why
other things
are NOT
observed.<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style=""></span></div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="" lang="EN-US">That comes to
the other
problem. There
is no charged
photon theory.
No
differential
equations
describing its
motion. It
ends up just
being a
notion. A
notion,
effectively,
of charged
fields. Why
not just make
it a scalar
charge? That
is already
complex
enough. The
theory for
this was
explored, for
example, by
Dirac himself
in the
fifties. It
did not lead
anywhere (yet,
at least).</span><span
style=""></span></div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="" lang="EN-US">Now coming back
to Dirac and
his (much
earlier)
linear
relativistic
theory. Dirac,
in his
relativistic
quantum
mechanics,
does indeed
integrate his
linear
equation and
derives a
motion
consisting of
a quickly
oscillating
lightspeed
part, the
zitterbewegung
and an overall
motion
characterised
by the normal
energy as a
half m v
squared part.
Very
beautiful. He
does not get
them
separately –
they are the
first two
terms in an
expansion.
Incidentally
this also gets
the de-Broglie
wavelength
right, with a
doubled
Compton
frequency nota
bene. The
factor of two
comes out. It
is not put in
a-priori. This
is what
happens in a
proper
relativistic
linear theory.
So what is the
problem, why
do we not just
pack up go
home and go
fishing? Job
done. Two
reasons:
firstly the
zitterbewegung
fluid in the
Dirac model is
not fields but
some stuff
with peculiar
properties
defined by the
new theory:
Spinors. These
have the
peculiar
property that
you must
rotate through
720 degrees to
get back to
where you
started from.
This is good
in itself –
and goes a
long way to
describing the
fundamental
difference
between
fermions and
bosons. It is
certainly a
big element of
the truth.
Understanding
these objects
properly,
however, has
proved beyond
the wit of
generations of
physicists (if
they are
honest) –
including
Dirac himself
and Feymann-
both of whom
were bright
and brave
enough to
simply say so.
Dirac does so,
for example,
in his own
book, directly
after deriving
the base
solutions.
Good man.
Others waffle
– or put the
problem into
simple
two-valued
groups such as
SU(2). Stick
it into simple
maths and
forget about
it. Make it an
inviolable
starting point
of further
theory. Bit
wimpy – but
safe<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
shape="rect"
name="_GoBack"
href="UrlBlockedError.aspx" target="_blank"></a>! Moving spinors – even
slowly moving
spinors start
mixing with
each other.
They are not a
relativistically
invariant
basis. Big
problem!<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style=""></span></div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="" lang="EN-US">I think the
base problem
with the Dirac
model is that
it is still
too simple –
and I think
that the point
where Dirac
goes wrong is
when he makes
two different
identifications
with the same
thing. This
messes
everything up
and leads to,
not only
solutions, but
also basic
dynamical
terms “being
difficult to
interpret
because they
are complex” -
as Dirac says.
Where this
comes from is
that he has
used,
unwittingly,
the same
square root of
minus one for
two
conceptually
different
things.
Complex
indeed, but
not complex
enough. And
mixed up at
that.</span><span
style=""></span></div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="" lang="EN-US">Coming back to
a more
advanced
theory: one
has to explain
why and how
charges arise
in a
pair-creation
process. To do
this one has
to understand
field properly
(at least as
the six
components of
an
antisymettric
tensor – but
tensor algebra
does not go
far enough
(yet)
either). One
needs to get
going with a
proper field
theory – not
just with a
loosely based
model. If you
are going to
charge a
photon this
cannot be
ad-hoc. Are
you charging
the electric
field part or
the magnetic
field part,
for example.
Are you adding
a 4-vector
(charge is the
first
component of
the 4-current)
to the
six-vector?
Just what is
it, exactly,
that you are
proposing? How
do you propose
to modify the
undelying
theory to
accommodate
your
conjecture?</span><span
style=""></span></div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="" lang="EN-US">For me, the
charge comes
about more
from, as Chip
and John D are
arguing, from
a topological
re-configuration
of the field
such that it
is everywhere
radial in a
double looped
configuration.
The photon has
field. The
field is
rectified by
the twist and
the turn. The
confinement
leads then to
a confined
object
appearing to
be (and
actually
being)
charged.</span><span
style=""></span></div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="" lang="EN-US">The turn itself
– essential to
the
re-configuration
of the field,
is engendered
in my model
not by a
charge, but by
a dynamical
scalar
rest-mass term
in conjunction
with the
electric
component of
the field.
This is a
seventh
component in
addition to
the six
components of
the EM field.
You may also
see it as an
element of
energy. I
agree with you
partially
here, that
this is
fundamental
stuff – but so
is field and
field is
different. It
is not a
scalar.<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span
style=""></span></div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="" lang="EN-US">The resulting
composite
object is
fermionic in
that it a
double-turn –a
fundamental
fermion. It is
charged in
that it can
inter-act and
exchange
energy. In
isolation, it
exhibits a
radial
electric field
– as does a
charge. Why
would you need
to complicate
things by
wanting the
poor photon to
be charged as
well? You do
not need it!
How are you
ever going to
calculate the
charge from
first
principles
when you put a
random amount
of it in to
begin with?
You are going
to get the
charge of the
photon, plus
or minus the
charge
engendered by
the topology
and the
confinement.
Why? I think
at this point
one is doubly
lost. One has
had to give up
the idea that
EM propagates
at lightspeed
and one has
also
arbitrarily
assigned a
charge to an
imagined
“charged
photon” – an
object which
is not
observed in
the real
world.
Further, one
has lost the
possibility of
a theory to
work with as
there is no
theory of the
charged photon
with equations
like the
Maxwell
equations, or
the
Schroedinger
equation, or
the Dirac
equation. One
is then triply
lost.</span><span
style=""></span></div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="" lang="EN-US">Now, coming
back to
numbers, let
us say that I
did want
Martin and my
old model to
get the charge
exactly right
(for example).
There is a
simple way to
do this
without too
much fuss and
without
varying the
lightspeed or
introducing a
charge to the
photon. Just
allow the
ratio of the
minor to the
major axes of
the torus to
vary. If zero
– one gets the
charge
slightly less
than q. A bit
more – hey
presto- just
right. More
still … one
can wind it up
to about 20
times the
charge
observed. Why
is this not a
result? Why
does this not
fix the ratio
of minor to
major. Well –
for example
could vary all
sorts of other
things – why
not flatten it
slightly? Why
not put it in
a cubical box
(this value is
then damn
close –less
than a
percent!). Why
not stick a
hole in it –
like a
spindle? Why
not make it
pear-shaped
(this is not
as daft as it
sounds and may
end up being
the answer!).</span><span
style=""></span></div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="" lang="EN-US">Yes – you can
do anything in
your mind. The
problem is
that process
is futile
unless one has
a proper
theory, or
some
experiment
which can
distinguish
these things.
Now, clearly,
I’m hoping
that the new
theory I
propose may,
ultimately,
provide the
answer. My
second choice
would be that
the extension
of the Bateman
method, which
Martin is
pursuing, does
the trick.
Maybe these
will converge
or merge with
some other
thinking in
the group
(even
better!).
Perhaps we
will find some
seminal
experiment
which fixes
some aspect of
it. Perhaps
the experiment
has already
been done and
one or other
of you know
about it.</span><span
style=""></span></div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="" lang="EN-US">There is a lot
of work
between where
I am now and
there though,
and perhaps
not enough
life and
energy left in
me to pursue
it as much as
I would like,
(squished as I
am by a pile
of exams –
though the
marking is now
nearly
finished). The
work to come
requires
developing a
canon of work
similar to
that produced
by dozens of
the greats in
non-relativistic
quantum
mechanics in
the 1930’s –
except the
base equations
are much more
complicated
than the
simple
Schroedinger
equation. We
have
equations, but
we need to
find solutions
to the
equations.
Plenty of work
to do! I’m
hoping to
convince a few
folk with
enough talent
and energy to
start getting
stuck in to
this
programme. The
process can,
and probably
will, throw up
problems with
the original
conception and
formulation. I
agree here
with Chip! No
problem! If it
is wrong –
modify it or
throw it out
and make up a
new one. That
is the proper
application of
the scientific
method.</span><span
style=""></span></div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="" lang="EN-US">Anyway this has
turned into
too much of an
opus. Though
it was started
in the morning
it is now
afternoon and
time for me to
go and get on
with some
proper work.
Marking
awaits!</span><span
style=""></span></div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="" lang="EN-US">Bye for now,</span><span
style=""></span></div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="" lang="EN-US">John W.</span><span
style=""></span></div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="text-align:center" align="center"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"></span>
<hr
align="center"
size="2"
width="100%">
</div>
<div
id="yiv6573640144divRplyFwdMsg">
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt"> </span></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">General [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
shape="rect"
href="mailto:general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target="_blank"><span style="color:purple">general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a>]
on behalf of
Richard
Gauthier [<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
shape="rect"
href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"
target="_blank"><span style="color:purple">richgauthier@gmail.com</span></a>]<br
clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>Saturday, May 30,
2015 2:59 PM<br
clear="none">
<b>To:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and
Particles -
General
Discussion<br
clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Photon</span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">John and Martin,</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt"> Thanks for your encouragement. The electron
is a photon
going round
and round in
the case of a
resting
electron,
otherwise it
is a photon
going round
and round and
forward in
some kind of
helical
motion, in
which case it
is not a
standing field
in this
reference
frame. Whether
or not the
charge of a
charged photon
moves at the
speed of light
depends on the
particular
model of the
photon that
one has. The
relativistic
charged-photon/electron
model does not
require a
particular
photon
model.The
charge that is
detected, like
the electron
mass that is
detected, may
be moving at
sub-light
speed. Mass is
not more
fundamental
than energy,
and is
proposed to be
composed of
light-speed
energy in the
case of the
electron.</span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt"> Richard</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;
margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">On May 30, 2015, at 5:03 AM, John Duffield <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow" shape="rect"
href="mailto:johnduffield@btconnect.com"
target="_blank"><span style="color:purple">johnduffield@btconnect.com</span></a>>
wrote:</span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">Can
anyone clearly
explain why a
charged photon
of spin 1/2
hbar and rest
mass
0.511MeV/c^2
is not the
missing link
between the
uncharged
photon and the
electron?<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Yes, I can. The electron is a 511keV photon
going round
and round.
It’s a charged
particle<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span><i>because</i><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>it’s
a photon going
round and
round. The
photon moving
linearly is a
field
variation, but
when it’s
going round
and round,
it’s a
standing
field. That’s
why it has
mass too.
It’s like<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
shape="rect"
href="http://www.researchgate.net/publication/273419950_Light_is_Heavy"
target="_blank"><span style="color:purple">the photon In a box</span></a><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>. Only it’s a box of
its own
making. Light
displaces its
own path into
a closed path,
because light
is
displacement
current. And
it does what
it says on the
can. Because
space waves. </span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Regards</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">John D</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">PS: Counter-rotating vortices repel,<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span><u>co</u>-rotating
vortices
attract, see<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
shape="rect"
href="http://www.scribd.com/doc/68152826/On-Vortex-Particles-Fiasco-Press-Journal-of-Swarm-Scholarship#scribd"
target="_blank"><span style="color:purple">On Vortex Particles</span></a><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>by David St John.
They ain’t
called spinors
for nothing!<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="border:none;
border-top:solid
#E1E1E1 1.0pt;
padding:3.0pt
0cm 0cm 0cm">
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"
lang="EN-US">General
[<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
shape="rect"
href="mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target="_blank"><span style="color:purple">mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a>]<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Mark, Martin van
der<br
clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>29 May 2015 23:47<br
clear="none">
<b>To:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and
Particles -
General
Discussion<br
clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Photon</span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">Richard,
yes, thank
you.<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">That
is indeed a
very good
remark, you
are probably
very right.<br
clear="none">
Let me think
about it a bit
more,<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">Best,<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">Martin<br
clear="none">
<br
clear="none">
Verstuurd
vanaf mijn
iPhone<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><br clear="none">
Op 29 mei 2015
om 21:45 heeft
Richard
Gauthier <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow" shape="rect"
href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"
target="_blank"><span style="color:purple">richgauthier@gmail.com</span></a>>
het volgende
geschreven:</span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;
margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">Chip,
John and
Martin,<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">
I think you
gentlemen are
onto
something. A
photon has
three related
levels of
quantization
(E=hf,
p=h/lambda and
spin = hbar) —
perhaps only
the third is
truly
quantized in
the sense of
having a
discrete
value. An
electron has
two more
levels of
discrete
quantization
(charge and
rest mass)
which may be
closely
related to its
spin 1/2 hbar.
The electron’s
charge may be
closely
related to its
spin hbar/2 in
the case of
the electron,
but not the
case of the
neutrino). An
electron gains
further levels
of discrete
quantization
(its energy
eigenvalues)
by being bound
in an atom.
The more
discrete
quantum levels
a quantum has,
the more it is
“bound” to a
material
condition.
Can anyone
clearly
explain why a
charged photon
of spin 1/2
hbar and rest
mass
0.511MeV/c^2
is not the
missing link
between the
uncharged
photon and the
electron?<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">
Richard<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;
margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">On
May 29, 2015,
at 12:07 PM,
Chip Akins
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
shape="rect"
href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com"
target="_blank"><span style="color:purple">chipakins@gmail.com</span></a>>
wrote:<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">Hi
Martin<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">With
your
experience and
depth of
understanding
regarding
photons, and
the evidence,
I am of course
inclined to
agree with you
regarding the
nature of
photons.<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">Regarding:
“<span
style="font-size:11.0pt">How
and why that
works the same
for radio
waves and
gamma rays, is
a mystery.
Well this bit
is my personal
opinion, of
course.</span>”<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">There
is perhaps a
difference
between the
interactions
we observe
when using
longer
wavelength
radio waves as
compared to
the
particle-sized
gamma rays.
The radio
waves are a
source of
field
influence
which can
cause electron
drift, just as
a DC field can
move
electrons, but
at the scale
of the
electron, or
even the
electron’s
“orbit” in an
atom, the
frequency of
the radio wave
is far less
“important”
than the
frequency of a
gamma ray
would be. The
resonances of
the particle
would be less
likely to be
significantly
influenced by
the radio
wave, but the
radio wave
would still
exert a force
on the
electron.
Radio waves
are generally
detected by
measuring the
movement of
electrons in
conductive
materials
where the
electrons in
the materials
are fairly
easy to move.
It seems
likely that it
takes at least
the motion of
one electron
in the
transmitting
antenna to
induce any
motion of an
electron in a
receiving
antenna,
assuming the
same
configuration
of transmitter
and receiver
antennae. But
the incident
field on the
receiving
antenna may
not be an
integral value
of “photon
energy”.<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">Is
this why you
refer to a
“continuum
wave”?
Because the
absorber only
uses what is
can use of the
available
energy? So
that a photon
may actually
contain more
energy than is
absorbed in an
interaction?<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">Chip<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="border:none;
border-top:solid
#E1E1E1 1.0pt;
padding:3.0pt
0cm 0cm 0cm">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">From:</span></b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt">General
[<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
shape="rect"
href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target="_blank"><span style="color:purple">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a>]<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Mark, Martin van
der<br
clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, May 29, 2015
12:42 PM<br
clear="none">
<b>To:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and
Particles -
General
Discussion<br
clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Photon</span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Dear Chip,<br clear="none">
now you are
really getting
there for
sure, those
questions and
statements are
at the right
level to begin
with. But your
kind of
understanding
certainly
converges with
my ideas.</span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">That me be good or bad, but I would judge it as
good. ;-)</span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">See for extra comments below…</span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Cheers, Martin</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt" lang="DE">Dr. Martin B. van der Mark</span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">Principal Scientist, Minimally Invasive
Healthcare</span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">Philips Research Europe - Eindhoven</span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">High Tech Campus, Building 34 (WB2.025)</span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">Prof. Holstlaan 4</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">5656 AE Eindhoven, The Netherlands</span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">Tel: +31 40 2747548</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="border:none;
border-top:solid
#B5C4DF 1.0pt;
padding:3.0pt
0cm 0cm 0cm">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt"> </span></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt">General
[</span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
shape="rect"
href="mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">]<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On
Behalf Of<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Chip Akins<br
clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>vrijdag 29 mei 2015
15:45<br
clear="none">
<b>To:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>'Nature of Light and
Particles -
General
Discussion'<br
clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Photon</span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">H
John W<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">Thank
you. One
reason for
asking the
question and
pursuing the
thought
process, was
to try to
further
illustrate the
lack of any
explanation so
far which
supports the
strict
self-quantization
of photons.
This has been
leading me to
think that the
source for
quantization
is the spin ½
configuration
of fermions.
(Which would
act as
quantizers
both while
emitting and
absorbing). If
this is true
then it means
that, for a
photon, E=hv
only holds
true because
of the emitter
and absorber.<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">MvdM: This may be exactly right.</span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">Regarding
the
uncertainty
principle:<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">If
we take a
single point
snapshot of a
sinusoidal
function we
are very
uncertain
about its
frequency, the
more time we
spend sampling
the wave the
more certain
we become of
its frequency.
Now if we are
using
sinusoidal
waves to
create
particles,
many of the
properties of
the particles
will be
uncertain with
our
measurements,
because the
measurements
we can take
disturb the
system, and
are only valid
for brief
times or
spaces before
the
information is
no longer
valid, due to
measurement.
Because when
we set up a
measurement,
we create
conditions
where discrete
waves and
fields will
interact,
creating an
energy
exchange which
occurs in a
very finite
timeframe,
disturbing
completely
what we are
measuring.
This
correlation to
the
uncertainty
principle is
one of the
reasons that I
feel fields
and waves are
the best
candidate for
the
fundamental
makeup of
particles.
Fields and
waves in these
configurations
naturally
create an
uncertainty in
measurement
which
correlates
exactly with
the observed,
understood,
and measured
uncertainties.
The hydrogen
atom is such a
nice tool for
modeling and
understanding
these issues.<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">MvdM: yes and this kind of uncertainty is given
by what is
called the
Fourier limit
amended with
hbar</span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">Of
course the use
of the word
orbit to
describe the
electron’s
state in an
atom is too
ambiguous to
actually
describe its
state. The
electron
exists in a
space
surrounding
the nucleus,
and spins
about it, but
it’s more like
the electron
surrounds the
nucleus and
less like an
orbit.<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">MvdM: true, and this is why detailed orbital
calculations
in a photon
model for the
electron are
totally
futile; only a
real theory
will tell.</span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">So
what I am
getting to is
that the
different
“spin modes”
of the photon
and the
electron are
significant.
I think the
photon has
what we may
call a
symmetric
field spin
mode, where it
spins about
the point
between the
positive and
negative field
lines, making
it charge
neutral. But
the electron’s
principal spin
is a
non-symmetrical
field spin
mode, with the
point between
the positive
and negative
fields
displaced from
the spin axis,
giving it
charge.
Apparently
this has other
important
effects as
well. It
seems this
spin mode
allows the
electron to be
quantized
based on
energy
density,
unlike the
photon.<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">The
underlying
reason I am
asking these
questions is
related to the
formulation
for field
equations.
There seems to
be a
difference
between the
behavior of
the fields in
the photon and
the
quantization
behavior of
the fields in
fermions. The
spin
configuration
seems to be
the cause for
the forces
which create
quantization.<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">MvdM: Yes and the reason is that the electron
needs binding
forces and
nonlinearity,
the “free”
photon doesn’t</span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">But
back to the
photon: Since
the photon
cannot be
quantized by
its internal
energy
density, does
it spin due to
the spin
angular
momentum
imparted by
the emitter?
Is the photon
actually not
internally
quantized at
all? That is
to say, is
there no
inherent
mechanism
within the
photon itself
which imposed
a specific
quantization?
Is the
relationship
E=hv imposed
only at the
emission or
absorption?
And therefore
can we create
photons
without spin?
Or can we
create photons
where E=hv is
not true? And
are photons
really
particles at
all, or are
they just
waves, which
seem like
particles
because of
their
interaction
with the
quantization
of emitters
and absorbers.<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">MvdM: Good questions, I go for waves. The
photon is
merely a
quantum of
energy that is
taken up by
the absorber
from a
continuum
wave. It is
not a particle
by it self,
and doen’t
need to have
the machinery
on-board to
keep itself
together or be
quantized or
what. It is
just a Maxwell
wave. But this
Maxwell wave
can only be
emitted and
absorbed
according to
the rules of
(boundary
conditions
imposed by)
emitter and
absorber. How
and why that
works the same
for radio
waves and
gamma rays, is
a mystery.
Well this bit
is my personal
opinion, of
course.</span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">While
we could view
many of the
question as
rhetorical it
seems that we
may need to
understand and
answer them as
literal.
Chandra,
Martin, All?<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">Chip<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="border:none;
border-top:solid
#E1E1E1 1.0pt;
padding:3.0pt
0cm 0cm 0cm">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">From:</span></b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt">General
[</span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
shape="rect"
href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">]<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On
Behalf Of<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span></b>John Williamson<br
clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday, May 28,
2015 4:29 PM<br
clear="none">
<b>To:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and
Particles -
General
Discussion<br
clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Photon</span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt" lang="EN-US">Hi
Chip and
everyone,<br
clear="none">
<br
clear="none">
Good thought
but no-
quantisation
cannot be
dependent on
energy
density. This
is what
experiment
tells you -
and is the
beauty of
experiment.
Experimentally
photons can
have any
wave-train
length. The
photon energy,
however, is
related to its
frequency
alone. Photons
from a source
have a
well-defined
energy only if
they are
pretty long
(this is a
consequence of
the
uncertainty
principle).
There are lots
of people in
the group
(Martin and
Chandra for
two) - who
know lots more
about this
than I do and
some who
perform
experiments
interfering,
stretching and
bending light.<br
clear="none">
<br
clear="none">
Any proper
theory needs
to describe
experiment -
all of it -
not just the
bits we may
happen to know
about!<br
clear="none">
<br
clear="none">
Regards, John</span><span
style=""></span></div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="text-align:center" align="center"><span lang="EN-US"></span>
<hr
align="center"
size="2"
width="100%">
</div>
<div
id="yiv6573640144divRpF211216">
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt"
lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt"
lang="EN-US"> </span></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt" lang="EN-US">General [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
shape="rect"
href="mailto:general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target="_blank"><span style="color:purple">general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a>]
on behalf of
Chip Akins [<a
moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow" shape="rect"
href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com"
target="_blank"><span style="color:purple">chipakins@gmail.com</span></a>]<br
clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>Monday, May 25, 2015
4:51 PM<br
clear="none">
<b>To:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>'Nature of Light and
Particles -
General
Discussion'<br
clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Photon</span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">Hi
John W and All<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">While
looking at
quantization
which may be
caused by a
twist term
included with
Maxwell’s
equations, at
least one
puzzle remains
unanswered for
me. The
nature of
photons is
still a bit
difficult to
understand.
It is much
easier to
envision a
photon of a
single
wavelength
than a photon
which is many
wavelengths.
If energy
density is the
cause for
quantization
(spin and
frequency) it
is more
difficult to
see how that
can be so, if
a photon may
have an
arbitrary
number of
cycles, but
have its
energy density
spread out
over all
cycles. What
do you think
the likelihood
is that not
only frequency
but also the
number of
cycles in a
photon is
quantized? If
this is the
case then we
could still
understand how
the correct
spin would
result from
energy density
for each
cycle. But
then we would
have to also
address the
energy density
to twist
relationship
for single
wavelength
structures
like the
electron
models we have
been
creating.???<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">It
seems evident
that
quantization
for frequency
is dependent
upon energy,
and I assumed
it was
therefore due
to energy
density. Which
works nicely
for single
wavelength
photons.
Experiment
seems to
indicate that
we can create
photons, using
various
methods, which
have an
arbitrary
number of
wavelengths.
How can we
physically
correlate this
to photon
frequency
quantization,
when the
energy density
of the photon
has been
spread out
over many
cycles? Is
there some
apparently
“non-local”
mechanism
which couples
the energy of
all cycles in
a single
photon, and
therefore
helps to
retain the
E=hv
relationship?<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">Thoughts?<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">Chip<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="border:none;
border-top:solid
#E1E1E1 1.0pt;
padding:3.0pt
0cm 0cm 0cm">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">From:</span></b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt">General
[</span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
shape="rect"
href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">]<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On
Behalf Of<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span></b>John Williamson<br
clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>Sunday, May 24, 2015
10:46 PM<br
clear="none">
<b>To:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and
Particles -
General
Discussion<br
clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General]
Electron Torus</span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">Hello,<br clear="none">
<br
clear="none">
Briefly - yes
pi mesons are
real
particles.
They leave
nice long
traces in
cloud or
bubble
chambers. The
rho is equally
real.<br
clear="none">
<br
clear="none">
Gluons have
never been
observed
directly. The
W and Z are
sufficiently
short-lived
that they are
observed as
so-called
resonances.<br
clear="none">
<br
clear="none">
Regards, John.</span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="text-align:center" align="center"><span lang="EN-US"></span>
<hr
align="center"
size="2"
width="100%">
</div>
<div
id="yiv6573640144divRpF39921">
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt"
lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt"
lang="EN-US"> </span></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt" lang="EN-US">General [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
shape="rect"
href="mailto:general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target="_blank"><span style="color:purple">general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a>]
on behalf of
Richard
Gauthier [<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
shape="rect"
href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"
target="_blank"><span style="color:purple">richgauthier@gmail.com</span></a>]<br
clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>Sunday, May 24, 2015
11:21 PM<br
clear="none">
<b>To:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and
Particles -
General
Discussion<br
clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General]
Electron Torus</span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">John
D,<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">
And according
to <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
shape="rect"
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particle"
target="_blank"><span style="color:purple">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particle</span></a> ,
the pi meson
and rho meson
are virtual
particles for
proton-neutron
attraction in
nuclei, as are
the W and Z
bosons for the
weak nuclear
force. Are
gluons, pi
mesons and W
and Z
particles ever
real?<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;
margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">On
May 24, 2015,
at 8:58 AM,
John Duffield
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
shape="rect"
href="mailto:johnduffield@btconnect.com"
target="_blank"><span style="color:purple">johnduffield@btconnect.com</span></a>>
wrote:<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="">Richard:</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style=""> </span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="">See
the<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a
moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow" shape="rect"
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluon#Confinement"
target="_blank"><span style="">Wikipedia gluon article</span></a><span
style="">,
note the bit
that says<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span></span><i><span
lang="EN">as
opposed to
virtual ones
found in
ordinary
hadrons.<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span></span></i><span
style=""
lang="EN">The
gluons in a
proton are
virtual. As in
not real. And
LOL, perhaps
the same is
true of the
quarks!<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style=""
lang="EN"> </span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style=""
lang="EN">Regards</span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style=""
lang="EN">John
D<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="border:none;
border-top:solid
#E1E1E1 1.0pt;
padding:3.0pt
0cm 0cm 0cm">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">From:</span></b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt">General
[</span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
shape="rect"
href="mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">]<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On
Behalf Of<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Richard Gauthier<br
clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>24 May 2015 16:12<br
clear="none">
<b>To:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and
Particles -
General
Discussion<br
clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General]
Electron Torus</span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">Chip,
Martin, John D
and others,<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">
I suspect
that the
fundamental
quantities of
both spacetime
and
particles/fields
are frequency
(directly
proportional
to the energy
of a particle
and inversely
proportional
to time) and
wavelength
(inversely
proportional
to the
momentum of a
particle and
directly
proportional
to space).
Spin is
related to
energy-momentum
topology.
Electric
charge seems
related to
topology.
Particles
with rest mass
are composed
of charged
photons and
related
speed-of-light
particles like
charged gluons
(normal gluons
are
electrically
uncharged but
have color
charge while
quarks have
both
electrical
charge and
color charge.)
And I suspect
that the
energy quantum
(composing
both
speed-of-light
particles and
rest-mass
particles) is
the unifying
link between
spacetime and
particles/fields
(and therefore
quantum
mechanics/QED/QCD/quantum
gravity) and
may be the
precursor as
well as the
sustainer of
both.<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">
Richard<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;
margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">On
May 24, 2015,
at 7:06 AM,
Mark, Martin
van der <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow" shape="rect"
href="mailto:martin.van.der.mark@philips.com"
target="_blank"><span style="color:purple">martin.van.der.mark@philips.com</span></a>>
wrote:<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt">John D, </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt">I fully agree with your reply to Chip, thanks
for the
details!</span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt">Please join us at the bar;-)</span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt">Cheers three!</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt">Martin<br clear="none">
<br
clear="none">
Verstuurd
vanaf mijn
iPhone</span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt" lang="EN-US"><br
clear="none">
Op 24 mei 2015
om 15:56 heeft
John Duffield
<</span><span
lang="EN-US"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow" shape="rect"
href="mailto:johnduffield@btconnect.com"
target="_blank"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">johnduffield@btconnect.com</span></a></span><span
style="font-size:9.0pt" lang="EN-US">> het volgende geschreven:</span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;
margin-bottom:5.0pt;
word-spacing:0px">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Chip:</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">I’m blue, you’re black:</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">As
all of you
know, after
Relativity was
introduced and
adopted, the
popular belief
for a while,
was that space
was empty, and
that a media
of space was
not required.
Now however it
seems that
most
physicists
have accepted
that space is
a media, with
quantum
attributes,
and some level
of energy
density. <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">That popular belief was a cargo-cult false
belief,
because
Einstein made
it clear in
his 1920
Leyden
Address that
space was the
“aether” of
general
relativity. He
made it clear
that space was
not some
emptiness, but
instead was a
thing that is
“conditioned”
by a massive
body such as a
star.</span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">If
space is a
media, what
would we
perceive which
is different
from space
being empty?<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">That popular belief was a cargo-cult belief,
because
Einstein made
it clear in
his 1920 </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow" shape="rect"
href="http://einsteinpapers.press.princeton.edu/vol7-trans/192?highlightText=%22neither%20homogeneous%22"
target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Leyden Address</span></a><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">that space was the “aether” of general
relativity,
and space was
not empty.</span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">Some
would say
there is no
perceptible
difference.
But is that
precisely
true?<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">No. Like Einstein said in<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a
moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow" shape="rect"
href="http://www.rain.org/%7Ekarpeles/einsteindis.html"
target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">1929</span></a><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">,
a field is a
state of
space.</span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">If
space is a
media, it
implies a
preferred
reference
frame in
space. This
is an item
which would be
difficult, or
perhaps
impossible to
detect, but
for one item.
If space is a
media with a
preferred
reference
frame, then
clocks in that
reference
frame would be
the fastest
clocks
possible in
the universe. <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">There’s also the<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a
moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow" shape="rect"
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_microwave_background#CMBR_dipole_anisotropy"
target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">CMB reference frame</span></a><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">. It’s preferred in that it tells you your
speed through
the universe.
And whilst it
isn’t an
absolute frame
in the strict
sense, the
universe is as
absolute as it
gets.</span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">One
thing which
would alter
the ability to
test this is a
gross frame
dragging of
space around
massive bodies
or
concentrations
of mass.<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">See<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a
moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow" shape="rect"
href="http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/newsandevents/pressreleases/galaxy_sized_twist/"
target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">the asymmetric Kerr
metric as a
source of CP
violation</span></a><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">. It’s to do with galactic frame-dragging.</span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">If
space is a
media, and if
frame dragging
does occur<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">It’s a popscience myth that it isn’t a medium,
electromagnetic
waves do not
propagate
because an
electric wave
creates a
magnetic wave
and vice
versa. I’m
confident that
frame dragging
does occur,
and that the
electron
electromagnetic
field is a
fierce example
of it.</span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><b>A
definition of
TIME is the
underlying
objective of
this line of
questions.</b>
For I see two
possibilities,
one is that
time is an
inherent
property of
space and, as
the current
relativity
teaches, a
fourth
dimension in
our
“spacetime”.
The other is
that time is
simply the
rate at which
particles can
interact,
caused by the
fact that
fields can
only propagate
at a finite
velocity, and
that we are
made of
particles
which are
circularly
confined
fields.<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">I
feel the first
explanation is
less likely
because it
does not show
cause, it does
not tell us
why time is
part of space,
just that it
is. The
second
explanation is
the one I
currently
prefer because
it is a simple
consequence of
the nature of
space and
particles, it
shows cause.<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">I prefer it too, and so did Einstein. See<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
shape="rect"
href="http://www.physicsdiscussionforum.org/time-explained-t3.html"
target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Time Explained</span></a><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">and<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a
moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow" shape="rect"
href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/World-without-Time-Forgotten-Einstein/dp/0465092942"
target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">A World Without Time: the
forgotten
legacy of
Godel and
Einstein</span></a><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">.<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">Is
time truly a
fourth
dimension at
the lowest
level of
analysis of
space?<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">No. We live in a world of space and motion. Our
time dimension
is derived
from motion.
It’s a
dimension in
the sense of
measure, not
in the sense
of freedom of
motion.<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Regards</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">John D</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="border:none;
border-top:solid
#E1E1E1 1.0pt;
padding:3.0pt
0cm 0cm 0cm">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">From:</span></b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt">General
[</span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
shape="rect"
href="mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">]<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On
Behalf Of<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Chip Akins<br
clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>24 May 2015 14:24<br
clear="none">
<b>To:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>'Nature of Light and
Particles -
General
Discussion'<br
clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General]
Electron Torus</span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">Hi
All<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">We
are working on
the
foundations of
physics.
Studying and
trying to
decipher the
result of
experiment in
a causal
manner.<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">As
we do that it
keeps bringing
me back to the
nature of
space itself.
John M has
made some good
points about
starting from
the makeup of
space and
working our
way up from
there. John D
has
communicated a
solid and
basic approach
to many of the
issues. Many
of us have
proposed
models, field
formulations,
and a host of
other possible
explanations
for what we
observe.<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">As
we reflect on
what we have
done and what
we still need
to do, there
are some
things which
may still need
to be
addressed and
answered
before we can
make progress
in certain
areas.<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">For
example, the
nature of
space and
time, are
fundamental to
understanding
physics. Some
of us feel we
have a
reasonable
handle on
this, and it
is a very
basic part of
what we are
doing, but I
am thinking
that we do not
yet have it
quite right.
For the
endeavor we
have
undertaken, I
think close is
not good
enough.<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">First
I want to
state clearly
that I do not
yet propose to
have the
answers to the
nature of
space, all I
have is
conjecture so
far.<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">As
all of you
know, after
Relativity was
introduced and
adopted, the
popular belief
for a while,
was that space
was empty, and
that a media
of space was
not required.
Now however it
seems that
most
physicists
have accepted
that space is
a media, with
quantum
attributes,
and some level
of energy
density. <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">However
many of the
subtle
suggestions
engendered
during that
time when it
was perceived
that space was
empty, and
much of the
“foundation”
of relativity
is still based
on there being
no media which
constitutes
space.<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">If
space is a
media, what
would we
perceive which
is different
from space
being empty?
Some would say
there is no
perceptible
difference.
But is that
precisely
true?<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">If
space is a
media, it
implies a
preferred
reference
frame in
space. This
is an item
which would be
difficult, or
perhaps
impossible to
detect, but
for one item.<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">If
space is a
media with a
preferred
reference
frame, then
clocks in that
reference
frame would be
the fastest
clocks
possible in
the universe.
All clocks in
all other
inertial
frames would
be slower. One
thing which
would alter
the ability to
test this is a
gross frame
dragging of
space around
massive bodies
or
concentrations
of mass.<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">It
seems that
relativity has
been tested
with regards
to the slowing
of clocks with
relative
velocity to a
precision of
about 1.6% to
10% depending
on which
experiments
you prefer.
But of course
these tests
are at low
relative
velocities and
only represent
a narrow prat
of the
spectrum of
tests which
would be
required to
absolutely
validate the
entire curve.
And an error
of 1.6% is
still a
substantial
error for this
type of
validation.<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">If
space is a
media, and if
frame dragging
does occur,
again it would
be difficult
to verify the
existence of
the media
using clocks,
depending on
how much frame
dragging there
is. If space
is a media,
how can we
calculate the
frame dragging
and quantify
it?<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><b>A
definition of
TIME is the
underlying
objective of
this line of
questions.</b>
For I see two
possibilities,
one is that
time is an
inherent
property of
space and, as
the current
relativity
teaches, a
fourth
dimension in
our
“spacetime”.
The other is
that time is
simply the
rate at which
particles can
interact,
caused by the
fact that
fields can
only propagate
at a finite
velocity, and
that we are
made of
particles
which are
circularly
confined
fields.<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">I
feel the first
explanation is
less likely
because it
does not show
cause, it does
not tell us
why time is
part of space,
just that it
is. The
second
explanation is
the one I
currently
prefer because
it is a simple
consequence of
the nature of
space and
particles, it
shows cause.<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">One
thing I think
we must
remember as we
construct a
physical model
is that we are
dealing with
the
fundamentals
and
foundations,
the building
blocks so to
speak, and in
that endeavor
we will
probably find
instances
where a
phenomenon
like the
definition of
time, or the
definition of
charge, or the
definition of
spin, is not
the same at
the micro
level as it is
at our macro
observable
level. If we
do our job
well we will
discover the
causes and
sources of
many of these
types of
phenomena. At
levels below
the causal
level for any
of these
phenomena, the
macro rules no
longer apply
in full.<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">After
saying that, a
question would
naturally
arise, if time
as we measure
it is merely
the result of
the
interaction of
particles, how
and when do we
incorporate
the dimension
of time in our
calculations?
Is the
development of
time at such a
low level that
we should
include it in
all
calculations,
just as
relativity
teaches? Or
does time come
into play only
at the
particle
level, and the
finite
velocity of
light
predominates
at lower
levels? Is
time truly a
fourth
dimension at
the lowest
level of
analysis of
space? Or does
it just appear
to be that way
from our
perspectives
due to the
nature of our
particulate
construction
and
measurements?<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">Any
and all
opinion and
argument is
eagerly
appreciated.
If you could
please let me
know your take
on this and
the reasons
you feel that
way I will be
grateful.<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">Chip<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="border:none;
border-top:solid
#E1E1E1 1.0pt;
padding:3.0pt
0cm 0cm 0cm">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">From:</span></b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt">General
[</span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
shape="rect"
href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">]<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On
Behalf Of<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span></b>John Williamson<br
clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, May 22, 2015
8:02 AM<br
clear="none">
<b>To:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and
Particles -
General
Discussion<br
clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General]
Electron Torus</span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt" lang="EN-US">Hello
Chip,<br
clear="none">
<br
clear="none">
Have been
meaning to say
for some time:
you are
producing some
beautiful
models.<br
clear="none">
<br
clear="none">
Would be good
to talk at
some stage.<br
clear="none">
<br
clear="none">
Regards. John
(W)</span><span
style=""></span></div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="text-align:center" align="center"><span lang="EN-US"></span>
<hr
align="center"
size="2"
width="100%">
</div>
<div
id="yiv6573640144divRpF393921">
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt"
lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt"
lang="EN-US"> </span></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt" lang="EN-US">General [</span><span lang="EN-US"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow" shape="rect"
href="mailto:general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt" lang="EN-US">] on behalf of Chip Akins [</span><span
lang="EN-US"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow" shape="rect"
href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com"
target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">chipakins@gmail.com</span></a></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt" lang="EN-US">]<br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, May 22, 2015
1:59 PM<br
clear="none">
<b>To:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>'Nature of Light and
Particles -
General
Discussion'<br
clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General]
Electron Torus</span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">Hi
Richard<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">Sorry
I was modeling
what I though
was the spin 1
photon model
of the
electron.<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">This
is what I
perceive to be
your spin ½
photon model
of the
electron to be
with
velocity.
Same velocity
steps as
before.<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">Nested
set of models,<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><image001.png><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">Slow
trajectory
lines, purple,
faster
trajectory
lines tending
toward green.<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">Here
is the code
for the
electron’s
reference
frame for the
above graphic:<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">X(ii)=Roc*(1/y^2+(1/y)*cosd(y*c*(t)/Roc))*cosd(y*c*(t)/Roc);</span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">Y(ii)=Roc*(1/y^2+(1/y)*cosd(y*c*(t)/Roc))*sind(y*c*(t)/Roc);</span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">Z(ii)=(Roc/y)*sind(y*c*(t)/Roc);</span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">Note:
there is still
a very small
electron model
(with velocity
0.9988c) at
the center of
this graphic.
In this model
the
contraction is
in all
directions,
not just
longitudinally.
I think this
is correct,
but it does
not agree with
some
interpretations
of
relativity.
It is also
difficult to
see how this
model, without
spiral fields,
would look the
same to a
moving
observer when
the electron
is “at rest”. <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">And
the model is
of course not
really
spherical.<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">Does
this match
your results?<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
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<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">Can
you share the
graphics model
you have done?<span
style=""></span></div>
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<div
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<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">From:</span></b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt">General
[</span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
shape="rect"
href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">]<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On
Behalf Of<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Richard Gauthier<br
clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, May 22, 2015
7:31 AM<br
clear="none">
<b>To:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and
Particles -
General
Discussion<br
clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General]
Electron Torus</span><span
style=""></span></div>
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<div
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D., Chip and
Andrew,<span
style=""></span></div>
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Isn’t it the
case that in
standard
physics
(experimentally
confirmed) the
measured spin
of an electron
is relative to
the motion of
the observer
of the
electron, just
as the
observed
momentum of an
electron is
relative to
the motion of
the observer
of the
electron? If
an observer
moving west to
east with a
relativistic
velocity v1
passes a
“stationary”
electron (in
some reference
frame) , the
electron has
an observed
momentum (when
it measured)
going west,
and a spin
either up or
down (when it
is measured)
in the
east-west
direction and
a de Broglie
wavelength
corresponding
to the
relative
velocity v1,
while when an
observer
moving
relativistically
south to north
with velocity
v2 passes a
“stationary"
electron , the
electron has
an observed
momentum (when
it is
measured)
going south, a
spin that is
up or down
(when it is
measured) in
the
north-south
direction, and
a de Broglie
wavelength
corresponding
to its
relative
velocity v2.
(In QM,
velocity,
spin and de
Broglie
wavelength
probably can’t
all be
measured at
the same
time). <span
style=""></span></div>
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<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">The
relativistic
energy-momentum
equation for
the electron
E^2 = p^2 c^2
+ m^2 c^4
applies to the
electron
described
above when
observed by
two observers
with two
different
relativistic
velocities
compared to
the electron.
I showed in my
article “the
electron is a
charged photon
with the de
Broglie
wavelength”
that the same
relativistic
energy-momentum
equation
applies to a
helically
moving
double-looping
photon that
may compose an
electron,
where E is the
energy of the
photon (the
same as the
total energy
of the
electron
composed by
the photon), p
is the
longitudinal
momentum of
the helically
moving photon
(the same as
the momentum p
of the
electron being
modeled), E/c
is the total
momentum of
the photon
along its
helical path,
and mc is the
transverse
momentum of
the helically
moving photon,
which
contributes to
the electron’s
spin up or
spin down
value hbar/2
in the case of
a slow moving
electron
(modeled by
the
double-looping
photon). So
every electron
observed to
have a
momentum p
will in this
view also have
a spin hbar/2
up or down in
the direction
of its
momentum. <span
style=""></span></div>
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<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">Also,
when a photon
is Doppler
shifted-due to
relative
motion of the
light source
away from or
towards the
observer, the
observed
wavelength of
the photon is
lengthened or
shortened
accordingly.
Doesn’t this
imply that the
length of the
whole photon
(if it
consists of a
certain number
of
wavelengths)
is also
lengthened or
shortened
accordingly?<span
style=""></span></div>
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<div
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<blockquote
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<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">On
May 22, 2015,
at 12:06 AM,
John Duffield
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
shape="rect"
href="mailto:johnduffield@btconnect.com"
target="_blank"><span style="color:purple">johnduffield@btconnect.com</span></a>>
wrote:<span
style=""></span></div>
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<div
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style="font-size:11.0pt">David:</span><span style=""></span></div>
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<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Why don’t photons get length contracted?
Because
they’re just
waves in space
moving at the
speed of waves
in space. A
ripple in a
rubber mat
doesn’t get
length
contracted,
nor do waves
in space. Then
when you make
those waves go
round and
round, they
still don’t
get
length-contracted.
Then when you
move past them
fast, they
still don’t
get length
contracted.
You might say
the path of
those waves is
different, but
it isn’t, they
didn’t change,
you did. And
if you boil
yourself down
to a single
electron, and
boil that down
to a ring,
then draw
circles and
helixes, I
think it gets
to the bottom
of things.<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style=""></span></div>
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style="font-size:11.0pt">Chip:</span><span style=""></span></div>
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<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Yes, I’m certain relative velocity is a
determining
factor. But
note that “we”
are made of
electrons and
things, so
IMHO it’s best
to start with
two particles,
such as the
electron and
the positron.
If you set
them down with
no initial
relative
motion they
move linearly
together, and
we talk of
electric
force. </span><span
style=""></span></div>
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style="font-size:11.0pt"><image005.jpg></span><span style=""></span></div>
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<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">However if you threw the postiron over the top
of the
electron
they’d move
together and
go around one
another,
whereupon we
talk of
magnetic
force. Note
that this is
relative
velocity, not
relativistic
velocity. I’ve
seen people<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
shape="rect"
href="http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/65335/how-do-moving-charges-produce-magnetic-fields"
target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">explain the magnetic
field around
the
current-in-the-wire
using length
contraction</span></a><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">, but IMHO that’s a fairy tale, and I prefer a<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
shape="rect"
href="http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/184055/atomic-explanation-of-magnetic-field/184079?noredirect=1#comment388570_184079"
target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">“screw” answer</span></a><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">. </span><span style=""></span></div>
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<div
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style="font-size:11.0pt">Regards</span><span style=""></span></div>
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<div
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style="font-size:11.0pt">John D</span><span style=""></span></div>
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<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">From:</span></b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt">General
[</span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
shape="rect"
href="mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">]<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On
Behalf Of<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Chip Akins<br
clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>21 May 2015 21:39<br
clear="none">
<b>To:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>'Nature of Light and
Particles -
General
Discussion'<br
clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General]
Electron Torus</span><span
style=""></span></div>
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<div
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John D<span
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<div
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<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Sorry, I don’t think that can be right because
you could go
past an
electron at
.9988c.</span><span
style=""></span></div>
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<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">Yes,
I am coming to
think that
maybe the
spiral fields
caused by
limited field
propagation
velocity,
might play a
larger role
than I had
first
considered.<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
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<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">I
think Martin
was onto this
aspect
already.<span
style=""></span></div>
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<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">Wondering
if relative
velocity is a
factor in
determining
what portion
of the spiral
field we
detect or
interact with?
And if so, how
that might
work.<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
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<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><image006.png><span
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<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">The
earlier
electron model
graphics are
created from
the math that
Richard
developed for
his spin ½
electron.<span
style=""></span></div>
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<div
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<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">From:</span></b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt">General
[</span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
shape="rect"
href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">]<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On
Behalf Of<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span></b>John Duffield<br
clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday, May 21,
2015 3:15 PM<br
clear="none">
<b>To:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>'Nature of Light and
Particles -
General
Discussion'<br
clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General]
Electron Torus</span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Chip:</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Sorry, I don’t think that can be right because
you could go
past an
electron at
.9988c.</span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Andrew:</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Photons don’t get length contracted, and
electrons are
made out of
photons in
pair
production. If
you simplify
the electron
to a photon
going round in
a circle, then
take one point
on the
circumference,
you would say
it describes a
circular path.
But when you
move past the
electron fast,
you would say
that point was
describing a
helical path.
Then when you
consider all
points of the
circumference,
you might say
the electron
was a cylinder
rather than a
circle. And if
you<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span><i>were</i><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>that electron,
everything to
you would look
length-contracted,
because you’re
smeared out.
If I was a
motionless
electron
you’d say I
was length
contracted.
But I might
say<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span><i>I<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span></i>was the one
moving, and
that<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span><i>you’re</i><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>length-contracted. </span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Regards</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">John</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="border:none;
border-top:solid
#E1E1E1 1.0pt;
padding:3.0pt
0cm 0cm 0cm">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">From:</span></b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt">General
[</span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
shape="rect"
href="mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">]<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On
Behalf Of<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Chip Akins<br
clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>21 May 2015 17:52<br
clear="none">
<b>To:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>'Nature of Light and
Particles -
General
Discussion'<br
clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General]
Electron Torus</span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">Hi
Andrew<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">Images
from the
electron’s
reference
frame.<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">For
Richard’s
model using
the spin 1
photon, and
drawing in the
electron’s
reference
frame, his
math produces
the following
image for a
set of nested
electron
models with
velocities up
to 0.9988c.<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><image007.png><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">The
small grey
sphere in the
center is the
electron model
for 0.9988c.<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">So
in this model
the electron
shrinks in all
directions,
but remains
principally
spherical when
viewed from
the electron’s
reference
frame.<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">Chip<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">From:</span></b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt">General
[</span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
shape="rect"
href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">]<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On
Behalf Of<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Andrew Meulenberg<br
clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday, May 21,
2015 11:15 AM<br
clear="none">
<b>To:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and
Particles -
General
Discussion;
Andrew
Meulenberg<br
clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General]
Electron Torus</span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">Dear Chip,</span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">I learn something new
every time.
However, it
may not be
true.</span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">If I interpret your
images
properly, the
fastest
electrons are
the longest.
However,
relativistic
shortening
should shrink
the length. I
had expected
the electron
to 'pancake'
in the
direction of
motion. You
show the
opposite. Is
the pancake
only in the
electron's
frame and the
appearance
from our frame
is one of an
extended
structure? If
both, do they
cancel and, in
reality, it is
still
spherical?</span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">Andrew<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">On
Thu, May 21,
2015 at 7:36
PM, Chip Akins
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
shape="rect"
href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com"
target="_blank"><span style="color:purple">chipakins@gmail.com</span></a>>
wrote:<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border:none;
border-left:solid
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;
padding:0cm
0cm 0cm 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;
margin-top:5.0pt;
margin-right:0cm;
margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">Hi
Richard<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">So
it is a bit
more difficult
to visualize
exactly what
is going on
from the
graphics with
velocity.<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">We
increase the
velocity is in
steps from<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span><b>zero through
0.9988c.</b><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">From
the Z axis the
illustration
looks like:<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><image008.jpg><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">Showing
the reduced
radius with
velocity.<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">But
when we look
at the model
slightly off
axis (Z axis)
we see this:<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><image009.jpg><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">So
this is a set
of nested
electron
models with
different
velocities,
each starting
from the same
point (upper
right of the
illustration).
These are
drawn from an
external
observers
frame and are
not shown in
the electron’s
reference
frame.<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">In
the electron’s
reference
frame we would
see closure to
the
trajectory,
but in this
reference
frame, the
trajectory
(since it is
moving) is not
closed.<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">Chip<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="border:none;
border-top:solid
#E1E1E1 1.0pt;
padding:3.0pt
0cm 0cm 0cm">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">From:</span></b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt">General
[mailto:</span><a
moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow" shape="rect"
href="mailto:general-bounces%2Bchipakins"
target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">general-bounces+chipakins</span></a><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">=</span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
shape="rect"
href="mailto:gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">]<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On
Behalf Of<span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Richard Gauthier<br
clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday, May 21,
2015 6:29 AM</span><span
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<b>To:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and
Particles -
General
Discussion<br
clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b><span
class="yiv6573640144apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General]
Electron Torus<span
style=""></span></div>
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<div
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Please
correct a
couple of
typos in my
last email.
The TEQ
(transluminal
energy
quantum) moves
on the surface
of a torus,
not a helix.
Also the first
helical radius
mentioned
should have
been Ro
sqrt(2) =
1.414 Ro , not
Ro sqrt(2)/2 =
1.414 Ro since
sort(2)/2 =
0.707 not
1.414 .
Thanks.<span
style=""></span></div>
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Richard<span
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<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">On
May 20, 2015,
at 6:42 PM,
Richard
Gauthier <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow" shape="rect"
href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"
target="_blank"><span style="color:purple">richgauthier@gmail.com</span></a>>
wrote:<span
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Nice
graphics!<span
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Shouldn’t
the electric
field lines of
an electron at
some distance
from the
electron model
be pointing
inward
linearly
towards the
electron from
infinity on
all sides,
since the
electron's
electric field
(due to its
electric
charge) falls
off as 1/r^2 .
I don’t
understand why
the electric
field lines
appear closed
in your
diagrams.<span
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In my
original
resting
electron model
the TEQ was a
circulating
negative
electric
charge which
circulated on
the surface of
a helix. I
called the
circulating
TEQ a
photon-like
object since
it was similar
to my TEQ
model of a
photon. I was
assuming at
that time that
the photon in
my resting
electron model
had spin 1,
even though I
had adjusted
the helical
radius so that
the
circulating
TEQ generated
the magnetic
moment of the
electron of 1
Bohr magneton,
requiring a
helical radius
for the TEQ of
Ro sqrt(2)/2 =
1.414 Ro which
created the
spindle torus
in my model .
So this was
actually
neither a spin
1 photon
(whose radius
for a resting
electron would
have been 2Ro,
or a spin 1/2
photon, whose
radius for a
resting
electron would
be Ro, as in
the 3D models
that you and I
generated from
the moving
electron
equations I
proposed.
Since I
currently
prefer the
model of an
electron
composed of a
spin 1/2
circulating
photon, this
doesn’t
generate the
electron’s
magnetic
moment of 1
Bohr magneton.
But it
generates a
magnetic
moment more
than 1/2 Bohr
magneton which
would be
produced by a
charge
circulating at
light speed in
a simple
double loop of
radius Ro. I
haven’t done
the
calculation
for the
magnetic
moment
generated by
my spin 1/2
photon model
of the
electron, but
I suspect that
it would be
0.707 Bohr
magneton (just
a guess at
this point).
The
calculation of
this magnetic
moment from
the TEQ
trajectory
equations for
a charged TEQ
in the spin
1/2 photon
model is
relatively
straightforward
though.<span
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By the way,
have you
looked at the
side view of
the actual TEQ
trajectory at
various values
of v/c of the
electron in
the spin 1/2
photon
moving-electron
model that I
proposed (and
that you
programmed and
graphed in 3D
to show how
the model size
changes as
1/gamma at
various values
of v/c)? The
side view of
the TEQ
trajectory for
a moving
electron
contains some
surprises, at
least for me.
I thought that
at high values
of v/c (say
0.99 or 0.999)
the TEQ would
just appear
from the side
view to rotate
helically
around its
reducing and
increasingly
more linear
helical
trajectory
(whose
trajectory
reduces as
1/(gamma^2),
with the TEQ’s
helical radius
reducing as
1/gamma. But
that’s
apparently not
what happens.
Could you
check this
with your 3D
program? <span
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Richard<span
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<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">On
May 19, 2015,
at 8:45 AM,
Chip Akins
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
shape="rect"
href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com"
target="_blank"><span style="color:purple">chipakins@gmail.com</span></a>>
wrote:<span
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<div
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Richard<span
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<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">If
your spin 1
photon model
of the
electron is
similar to
John W and
Martin’s model
in that the
field lines
always orient
with the
negative end
outwards
(providing for
charge) the
estimated
field
distribution
is similar to
this
illustration.
(Equatorial
View)<span
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View from Z
axis)<span
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degree
elevation
view)<span
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<div
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lines
represent
negative ends
of field
lines, Blue
lines
represent
positive,
black is the
transport
radius, faint
green line is
one
circulation at
the transport
radius.<span
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<div
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field
amplitude is
shown as a
cosine
function of
wavelength/2.<span
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0cm 0cm 0cm">
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<div
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style="font-size:11.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> General
[</span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
shape="rect"
href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Richard Gauthier<br
clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday,
May 05, 2015
10:06 AM<br
clear="none">
<b>To:</b> Nature
of Light and
Particles -
General
Discussion<br
clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b> Re:
[General]
Electron Torus</span><span
style=""></span></div>
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Perfect! It
would also be
good to have
the pair of
tori seen an
an angle from
above their
‘equator’ to
get a more 3-D
quality.<span
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Richard<span
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<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">On
May 5, 2015,
at 6:07 AM,
Chip Akins
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
shape="rect"
href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com"
target="_blank"><span style="color:purple">chipakins@gmail.com</span></a>>
wrote:<span
style=""></span></div>
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<div
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Richard<span
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<div
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do these look?<span
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<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> General
[</span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
shape="rect"
href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Richard Gauthier<br
clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b> Monday,
May 04, 2015
1:18 PM<br
clear="none">
<b>To:</b> Nature
of Light and
Particles -
General
Discussion<br
clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b> Re:
[General]
Electron Torus</span><span
style=""></span></div>
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<div
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Chip,<span
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The radius of
the circle in
the horn torus
(spin 1/2
photon model)
should
visually be
(since it is
actually) 1/2
of the radius
of the circle
in the spindle
torus (spin 1
photon model)
-- the spin
1/2 photon
model is
smaller than
the spin 1
photon model.
Thanks! And
could you
perhaps show
the energy
quantum
trajectory in
a different
color that the
torus
background so
the trajectory
stands out
better?<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
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Richard<span
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<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">On
Mon, May 4,
2015 at 10:42
AM, Chip Akins
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
shape="rect"
href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com"
target="_blank"><span style="color:purple">chipakins@gmail.com</span></a>>
wrote:<span
style=""></span></div>
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<blockquote
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Richard<span
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<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> General
[mailto:</span><a
moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow" shape="rect"
href="mailto:general-bounces%2Bchipakins"
target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">general-bounces+chipakins</span></a><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">=</span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
shape="rect"
href="mailto:gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Richard Gauthier<br
clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b> Monday,
May 04, 2015
12:19 PM<br
clear="none">
<b>To:</b> Nature
of Light and
Particles -
General
Discussion<br
clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b> Re:
[General]
Electron Torus</span><span
style=""></span></div>
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<div
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Chip,<span
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Thanks. And
finally, the
vertical ovals
of the tori
should be
circles
because the
circulating
quantum has
the same
radius in the
vertical and
horizontal
directions.<span
style=""></span></div>
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Richard<span
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<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">On
May 4, 2015,
at 9:32 AM,
Chip Akins
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
shape="rect"
href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com"
target="_blank"><span style="color:purple">chipakins@gmail.com</span></a>>
wrote:<span
style=""></span></div>
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<div
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Richard<span
style=""></span></div>
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<div
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you.<span
style=""></span></div>
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<div
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you go:<span
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<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> General
[</span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
shape="rect"
href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Richard Gauthier<br
clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b> Monday,
May 04, 2015
10:43 AM<br
clear="none">
<b>To:</b> Nature
of Light and
Particles -
General
Discussion<br
clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b> Re:
[General]
Electron Torus</span><span
style=""></span></div>
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<div
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Chip,<span
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Both tori
should be
symmetrical
above and
below the
z-axis and
center on z=0.<span
style=""></span></div>
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<div
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Richard<span
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<blockquote
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<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">On
May 4, 2015,
at 8:16 AM,
Chip Akins
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
shape="rect"
href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com"
target="_blank"><span style="color:purple">chipakins@gmail.com</span></a>>
wrote:<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
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<div
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style=""></span></div>
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<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">Hi
Richard<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><image001.jpg><span
style=""></span></div>
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<div>
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<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">Viewed
from the Z
axis:<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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</div>
</div>
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</div>
</div>
<div>
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<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><image002.jpg><span
style=""></span></div>
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<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">And
from the
equatorial
plane:<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
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<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">Chip<span
style=""></span></div>
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<div
style="border:none;
border-top:solid
#E1E1E1 1.0pt;
padding:3.0pt
0cm 0cm 0cm">
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<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> General
[</span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
shape="rect"
href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Richard Gauthier<br
clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday,
May 03, 2015
11:07 PM<br
clear="none">
<b>To:</b> Nature
of Light and
Particles -
General
Discussion<br
clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b> Re:
[General]
position</span><span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
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</div>
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</div>
</div>
</div>
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<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">Chip
and all,<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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</div>
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class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">
Here are some
equations that
relate to the
modeling of a
circulating
photon as an
electron. The
second and
third set
include my own
model of the
photon. The
first set
doesn’t
require a
particular
model for the
photon, except
as mentioned
below. The
first model is
the one that
generates the
de Broglie
wavelength as
explained in
my article
mentioned
below.<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal"> <span
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<div
class="yiv6573640144MsoNormal">1.
Here is the
set of
parametric
equations for
the helical
trajectory of
double-looping
photon that
models a free
electron, and
whose
circular
radius for a
resting
electron is
Ro=hbar/2mc.
The speed of
the photon
along this
trajectory is
always c. The
longitudinal
or z-component
of the
photon’s speed
is the
electron’s
velocity v
along the
z-axis. The
frequency of
the photon
around the
helical axis
is
proportional
to the
circulating
photon/electron's
energy E=gamma
mc^2. The
distance of
the photon’s
helical
trajectory
from the
z-axis for an
electron whose
speed is v, is
proportional
to 1/gamma^2.
This equation
is in my
article “The
electron is a
charged photon
with the de
Broglie
wavelength”.
This equation
does not
include a
particular
model of the
photon, but
assumes that
the photon
follows the
relations c=f
lambda, E=hf
and
p=h/lambda.
Both
helicities of
the helical
trajectory are
given.<span
style=""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
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