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<div style="direction: ltr;font-family: Tahoma;color: #000000;font-size: 10pt;">Hi John M,<br>
<br>
I think you are confusing proof and disproof. There tends to a be a popular mis-conception that an experiment can "prove" a theory. Not so, an experiment may be consistent or inconsistent with a theory - no more. This means that a well-constructed experiment
may, in a sense, disprove a theory, but not prove it. If an experiment is inconsistent with a theory - within the realm of validity of that theory - then that theory should, in the proper operation of the scientific method, be either modified or discarded.<br>
<br>
Now you have raised some questions below, not of any of our models, but of science as it stands. Though this has little or nothing to do with the subject of the upcoming conference, I am going to try to help you by answering those questions, within the context
of science-as-it-stands. I'm not then going to enter into further discussion to defend those theories for you - this is not my job and I have neither the time nor the energy for it. If you want to go deeper into this you can read the papers on it by Feynmann
and others, or look into one of the many textbooks on QED. This is a one off. I will answer in blue.<br>
<div style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #000000; font-size: 16px">
<hr tabindex="-1">
<div style="direction: ltr;" id="divRpF138785"><font face="Tahoma" color="#000000" size="2"><b>From:</b> General [general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org] on behalf of John Macken [john@macken.com]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, July 22, 2015 8:52 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] The New Aether<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div>
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444">Vivian and All.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444">I have been away and was not able to answer Vivian’s objections contained in her July 17 post dealing with my paper titled “Energetic Spacetime: the New Aether”. On several of her points she demanded that I
had to be able to show the experimental proof in order for a point to be valid.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="0000FF">This is not so. Viv was talking about a discrepancy with experiment.</font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"> I must admit that as I read this comment I wondered why this demand was being directed at me. Everyone in this group including Vivian and Chandra has offered theoretical models which lack experimental proof.
<br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="0000FF">This mis-states the position of others.</font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444">In fact, most progress in physics happens when a theoretical prediction is made which initially lacks experimental proof.
<br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="0000FF"><br>
</font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="0000FF">Not so. It is discrepancy with the existing body of knowledge that usually drives folk to question. The initial driving discrepancy may not, indeed, correspond with what are later seen as "successes" of a model.</font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444">The experimental proof then follows as the idea matures.
<br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="0000FF"><br>
</font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="0000FF">No theory is ever "proven" by any one experiment.</font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444">For example, general relativity was purely theoretical until the bending of light by the sun’s gravity was experimentally measured in 1919. The experiment would not have been performed without the theoretical
prediction. <br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="0000FF"><br>
</font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"><font color="0000FF">Oh yes it would. Photons would have been known to carry energy and
<font color="0000FF">momentum. there would have been an argument li<font color="0000FF">ke that in Martin's "light is heavy" and someone would have looked at how these
<font color="0000FF">move in a gravitational field by now.</font></font></font></font><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<span style="color:#444444"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"><font color="0000FF">General relativity remains unproven. It is only the case that, to first order, General relativity is consistent with the facts.
</font><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444">Another problem is that objections were registered without also addressing the arguments I gave to support my conclusions. The central point was that there is no support for my contention that vacuum energy
has energy density in excess to 10<sup>-9</sup> J/m<sup>3</sup>. However, before addressing this point, I want to discuss the competition to my model of particles and forces. The competition has the electrostatic force being transferred by virtual photons.
There is absolutely no experimental proof that virtual photons transfer the electrostatic force. In fact, there are numerous reasons to doubt this.
<br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="0000FF">John, there is a theory called quantum electrodynamics (QED). It is consistent with a vast range of experimental phenomena. Have you ever studied it? I'm going to give some trite answers
<font color="0000FF">based on that theory - and which I could have answered as a postgrad back in 1980. I will not come back to defe<font color="0000FF">n</font>d them because I myself do not think QED is complete<font color="0000FF">, but I have better things
to do than to regurgitate things you could read f<font color="0000FF">ro</font>m a big book. I recommend "Landau and Lifshitz - QED".<font color="0000FF"><font color="0000FF">
</font>Anyway, showing that someone else has a problem - even if you had done that which you have not - does not then
<font color="0000FF">prove that you are right.</font></font></font></font><br>
</font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444">For example: 1) How is attraction achieved?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="0000FF"><br>
</font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="0000FF"><font color="0000FF">As I have said before in many posts: v</font>irtual photons can carry negative 4-momentum squared.</font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444">2) How does an electric field achieve measurable energy density from “virtual” photons?
<br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="0000FF">You have a lot of them.</font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444">3) What exactly is a virtual photon? (size, wavelength, frequency, etc.)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"><font color="0000FF">Stupid question. Any size, any wavelength , any frequency. Even "real" photons can do that<font color="0000FF">. </font>
<font color="0000FF">A virt<font color="0000FF">ual photon is a theoretical construct in the theory of QED. R</font></font>ead the book.</font><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"> 4) How does a virtual photon locate a distant electron?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="0000FF">Good point. T<font color="0000FF">h</font>is is relatively hard. It is dealt with in QED by assigning a probability to emit (based on the fine structure constant) and a probability to absorb (ditto). The primary interaction
matri<font color="0000FF">x element</font> then goes as <font color="0000FF">alpha- squared times some geo<font color="0000FF">metrical factors. <font color="0000FF"> You need to understand as well that<font color="0000FF">, as the distant electron becomes
more and more dist<font color="0000FF">ant the "virtual" photon becomes less and less virtual and more and more real. In fact<font color="0000FF">, even for a few tens of wavelengths, the exchange photon is 99.9999 percent
<font color="0000FF">"real". </font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font><font color="0000FF"><font color="0000FF"><font color="0000FF"><font color="0000FF"><font color="0000FF"><font color="0000FF"><font color="0000FF"><font color="0000FF"><font color="0000FF"><font color="0000FF"><font color="0000FF">T<font color="0000FF">h</font>ere
are higher order effects for exotic kinds of interactions (virtual photons!)<font color="0000FF">. These</font>, if calculated - give pretty much exactly the effects observed in e<font color="0000FF">xperiment. </font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font>
</font></font></font></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="0000FF"><font color="0000FF"><font color="0000FF"><font color="0000FF">To understand the deeper implied point better, however,
</font></font>y</font>ou need to look first at Carver Mead's keynote talk at last years S<font color="0000FF">PIE</font> conference. Then look at Al Kracklauer's translat<font color="0000FF">ion</font> of Tetrode's paper (look on his website), then read Wheeler
and Feynmann's paper then try to understand how this can still be consistent with causality (this is hard and may take you some time<font color="0000FF">. T<font color="0000FF">h</font>ink<font color="0000FF"> -
</font>energy.</font>). <br>
</font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"> I could go on, but you get the point.
<br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="0000FF"><br>
</font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"><font color="0000FF">I could go on but you get the point.</font><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444">Also, the competition says that the gravitational force is transferred by either the geometry of curved spacetime or by virtual gravitons. Both of these also have problems. Curved spacetime is fine to explain
a particle following a geodesic, but there is a real force when two masses are physically held apart. Where does this force come from?
<br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="0000FF">Easy: masses share the "bend". Many hands make light work. All that sort of thing.
<br>
</font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444">Curved spacetime does not explain the gravitational force.
<br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="0000FF">Oh yes it does. Do you think no-one would have noticed? Many others in the gr<font color="0000FF">oup ... Viv, David, Reg, Al ... know much more about this than I do. It would be good for you to talk to them at the
conference.</font><br>
</font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444">In other words, there is no experimental proof that the geometry of spacetime can generate a force corresponding to the gravitational force. Also, gravitons have many of the same problems previously enumerated
for virtual photons. There is no experimental proof of gravitons.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<span style="color:#444444"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"><font color="0000FF">True - as far as I know. Unless someone in the wider group, more specialist or widely-read than I knows better? David? Reg? Al? The fact that<font color="0000FF"> there is no proof for someone
else's theory has little, or no, bearing on your own though. Also<font color="0000FF">, while there is no experimental "proof" for gravitons there is no experimental
<font color="0000FF">disproof either. No inconsistency with experiment then. Also gravitons have absolutely nothing to do with t<font color="0000FF">he</font> upcoming conference.</font></font></font></font><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444">My explanation of both the electrostatic force and gravity is based on the idea that vacuum energy is real. The uncertainty principle implies that the distance between points varies by
</span><span style="font-family:"Cambria Math",serif; color:#444444">±</span><span style="color:#444444"> Planck length (L<sub>p</sub>) and perfect clocks in flat spacetime can differ by
</span><span style="font-family:"Cambria Math",serif; color:#444444">±</span><span style="color:#444444"> Planck time (T<sub>p</sub>). This simple insight is the basis for the wave-based energy density of spacetime. This energy density has been calculated
and shown to be vastly different from the observable energy density which averages10<sup>-9</sup> J/m<sup>3</sup>. It is also the basis of everything in the universe – all particles, fields and forces. No extra dimensions are needed. How come when people
freely propose extra dimensions there is no chorus demanding experimental proof? However, when energetic spacetime is assumed, then objections are heard even though there is numerous reasons to believe that the vacuum has energy density.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<span style="color:#444444"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"><font color="0000FF">I think the main reason for this is that energies and masses on this scale are simply not observed. When people make up extra dimensions they do so usually in an area where they ought not
to be observed - being very small or only manifesting at an absurdly large energy scale. You start in an area where such energies and masses - if they are energies and masses - should by easily observed by looking out of the window.</font><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444">Unlike virtual messenger particles transferring forces, this wave-based particle model has real predictions which were easy to prove correct.
<br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"><font color="0000FF">This statement is simply not true. QED predicts, it is true, but it also calculates. So far, with the possible exception of tiny discrepancies in the anomalous magnetic moment of the muon
w.r.t. that of the electron, its calculations agree exactly with experiment. It calculates to many decimal places. Experiment is still catching up with extending those decimal places by further orders. Down at one part in a million or less. You have shouted
a lot about your model - but the only actual number I have seen calculated from it - the electron charge- is out by more than two orders of magnitude.
<br>
</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"><font color="0000FF"><br>
</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444">For example, the first set of predictions were that both the electrostatic force and the gravitational force were the result of waves generated by fundamental particles at the particle’s Compton frequency. When
these forces were expressed in the natural units of the particles, they would reveal that gravity was a nonlinear effect that scaled with wave amplitude squared and electrostatic effects scaled with wave amplitude to the first power. In other words, it should
be possible to prove or disprove whether this model was correct by doing either a calculation or an experiment which tested this relationship. In the paper
<u>Spacetime Based Foundation of Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity</u> equations 15 to 23 show that these predictions are correct.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="0000FF">I looked at this, but all you seem to have done, to me, is plugged in Newton's force law - and a set of o<font color="0000FF">ther well-known relations in you<font color="0000FF">r equation 13</font></font>, provided
only that you also plug in a value of the electron charge which is more than two orders of magnitude out. This<font color="0000FF"> is not, in my a book, a prediction. Also<font color="0000FF">, even after all of this, you seem to
<font color="0000FF">get</font> no further than Newton's law of gravitation.</font></font><br>
</font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"> I have subsequently generated other equations showing the close relationship between the gravitational force and the electrostatic force. This “foundation” paper was previously attached to my posts and is also
available at <a href="http://onlyspacetime.com/QM-Foundation.pdf" target="_blank">
http://onlyspacetime.com/QM-Foundation.pdf</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"><a href="http://onlyspacetime.com/QM-Foundation.pdf" target="_blank"><br>
</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444">Both the Newtonian gravitational equation and the Coulomb law equation have been experimentally verified.
<br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="0000FF">To a first approximation. The Newton theory is modified, as you know in GR and the Coulomb law breaks down at short distances (the running coupling constant).</font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444">Therefore, showing how there equations are related by a square is the same as doing an experiment.
<br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<span style="color:#444444"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="0000FF">Oh no it isn't.<br>
</font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="0000FF">The fact they are related by an inverse square shows only that both are consistent, to first order, with being transmitted by a conserved fluid in 3D. No more and no less.<br>
</font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444">If you are looking for predictions which have not been experimentally verified, I have those also. In chapter 9 of my book I discuss an electric field experiment that should be possible but difficult. However,
even then I am able to show that it is possible to verify the accuracy of the prediction with a thought experiment. Suppose that it was possible to increase the intensity of a laser beam to arbitrarily large powers. If the beam is focused to 1 wavelength
in diameter, then the prediction is that it should be possible to reach a condition where the properties of spacetime would achieve 100% modulation of the vacuum energy density at the laser’s wavelength. Spacetime should be incapable of transmitting more
power than the predicted 100% modulation level through the focused spot. Imagine that this experiment was performed by some advanced civilization. At great expense, they would discover that this prediction was correct. The 100% modulation level corresponds
to the level that makes a black hole. Once the black hole forms, no further light could be transmitted through this volume of spacetime – just as predicted.
<br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<span style="color:#444444"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"><font color="0000FF">Dear John, you
<font color="0000FF">seem quite</font> safe to me for the time being with this experiment. I tried doing the sums<font color="0000FF">. Perhaps I made a
<font color="0000FF">mistake so correct me if I am wrong. </font></font>The poor old laser, if blue, would need a power source rather larger than that which could be obtained by annihilating the entire universe with an equivalent antimatter universe- since
the energy contained in a <font color="0000FF">2</font>00nm (Half the w<font color="0000FF">ave</font>length of blue light) cube in your model, to get to "the 100 percent modulation limit" far exceeds the energy of the energy of the entire universe by many
many orders of magnitude. This is going to take some serious engineering. Do the sums. Also, I would not recommend
<font color="0000FF">having a go at</font> this as annihilating the whole of our universe, just to "prove" a theory would not necessarily be a good idea.</font><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444">Finally, the “New Aether” paper contains a new calculation which gives the “interactive” density
<i>ñ<sub>i</sub></i>, <br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<span style="color:#444444"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"><font color="0000FF">The fact you put "interactive" in quotes is telling.</font><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444">energy density <i>U<sub>i</sub></i>, mass
<i>m<sub>i</sub></i> and energy <i>e</i><sub>i</sub> encountered by a gravitational wave with angular frequency
</span><span style="font-family:"Cambria Math",serif; color:#444444">ù</span><span style="color:#444444"> and reduced wavelength
<i><s>ë</s></i>. Ignoring the numerical constant k, these equations are very simple:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="color:#444444">ñ<sub>i</sub> = </span></i><i><span style="font-family:"Cambria Math",serif; color:#444444">ù</span></i><i><sup><span style="color:#444444">2</span></sup></i><span style="font-family:"Cambria Math",serif; color:#444444">/</span><i><span style="color:#444444">G</span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="color:#444444">U<sub>i</sub> = F<sub>p</sub></span></i><span style="font-family:"Cambria Math",serif; color:#444444">/</span><i><s><span style="color:#444444">ë</span></s></i><i><sup><span style="color:#444444">2</span></sup></i><i><span style="color:#444444"></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="color:#444444">m<sub>i</sub> = Z<sub>s</sub></span></i><span style="font-family:"Cambria Math",serif; color:#444444">/<i>ù</i></span><i><span style="color:#444444"></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="color:#444444">e<sub>i</sub> = F<sub>p</sub><s>ë</s>
</span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444">These are all explained in the aether paper. I know that none of these will not be completely satisfying, but they are given because they imply that different frequencies encounter different amount of energy
density. Only Planck frequency encounters 10<sup>113</sup> J/m<sup>3</sup> energy density.
<br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="0000FF"><font color="0000FF">If interactive, t</font>hese interactions are huge on a human scale. You should be able to feel them by waving your hand. You do not.<br>
</font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444">If you have no need for a higher frequency than the Compton frequency of the Higgs boson, then you need not concern yourself with energy density higher than about 10<sup>46</sup> J/m<sup>3</sup>. This also happens
to be the energy density of the Higgs field from QED. <br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"><font color="0000FF">The Higgs field is not in QED. It is an additional part of the "standard model". QED deals with just the interaction of light and (charged) matter.</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"><font color="0000FF"><br>
</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"><font color="0000FF"><font color="0000FF">John, a general comment. I have been putting a lot of effort and time into this for your benefit and for the benefit of others in the group.
<font color="0000FF">I like some of what you have done<font color="0000FF">, and have been doing, and there
<font color="0000FF">is some serious content in some as<font color="0000FF">pec</font>ts of your ideas. Attacking others, especially physics<font color="0000FF">-as-it-stands<font color="0000FF">, is a waste of everyone's energy and talent. It is beginning
to piss me off. Please stick to either developing your own ideas, or posting (preferably constructive)</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></span><span style="color:#444444"><font color="0000FF"><font color="0000FF"><font color="0000FF"><font color="0000FF"><font color="0000FF"><font color="0000FF">
criticism of things that are actually in the theme of this conference.<br>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444">John M.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<span style="color:#444444"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#444444"><font color="0000FF">Regards, John W.</font></span></p>
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