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<div style="direction: ltr;font-family: Tahoma;color: #000000;font-size: 10pt;">Now this is an interesting bunch of questions. Right to the heart of the matter indeed!<br>
<br>
I think it is wise to pause and go back here to the origin of dialectic itself - the Greek invention to begin to split up the world and systematise it. The idea that a question could be asked sufficient to split the answer into two possibilities, one true one
false. I think the answer to "is the photon quantised or is it the emitter and/or absorber" is ... "all three" because "all three" are part of the single process that we call photon exchange. Also the word "photon" as opposed to "light" simply CARRIES the
meaning of "quantised". This is a trite way to end an argument, but does not say anything about the deep understanding of why and how it is "quantised". Saying "quantised is often giving a word to sum up a lack of knowledge, to encompass a lack of understanding
into a simple label. We humans have been doing this sort of thing for a long time. There is an awful lot of room for bullshit here and it is easy to fool oneself into thinking something has deep meaning, when in fact it is contingent on the mathematical framework
in which one considers it. To illustrate this, just look at my light paper! The maths quantises continuous light if it is more than a few wavelengths long - but is the maths right? Who knows?<br>
<br>
Coming back to experiment, it may be nice to think about an emitter emitting a single photon bullet, later absorbed by an absorber, with the photon having an independent existence in between but this is not only not what is observed in experiment, but the whole
body of evidence contradicts this simple view. Emitter and absorber ARE experimentally entangled. Antibunching happens - but it part of a whole process. There is also the Hanbury-Brown Twiss effect to consider. The "interaction with absorber" theory also plays
a role - bringing in the question of causality itself. As Martin says this is a huge question.<br>
<br>
Remember also that the whole theme of the bi-ennial conference Chandra has been organising for more than a decade has been to try to answer the very point of "what is a photon?". The fact that a conclusive answer has not yet emerged tells the story.<br>
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My own view is that the emitter AND absorber need to be quantised, but quantised in the same way. There is a need to look at Phat photons as a good experimental probe here and also, as I suggest in my "light" paper, emitters and absorbers in the fractional
quantum Hall regime may have fractional quantisation E = 1/3 h nu (you heard it here first!). This would show, conclusively, the role the emitter and absorber play, but still not settle the question posed properly as I think the fractional quantisation itself
is not yet properly understood..<br>
<br>
I think to make proper progress we need to develop a better theory that fits all the facts - just and no more. A theory that lays bare the nature of the emitter, the absorber, and the intermediating process - all at once and from a deeper underlying basis.
A theory that allows the whole process to be understood within a single framework.<br>
<br>
Should be fun trying this, even if we cannot sort it all out next week!<br>
<br>
Regards, John W.<br>
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<div style="direction: ltr;" id="divRpF223179"><font face="Tahoma" color="#000000" size="2"><b>From:</b> General [general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org] on behalf of Mark, Martin van der [martin.van.der.mark@philips.com]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, August 03, 2015 12:55 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Questionnaire<br>
</font><br>
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<div></div>
<div>
<div>Dear David, Richard and Chip,</div>
<div>Thanks for the comments, what we are dealing with here is quite a difficult question indeed.</div>
<div>First of all Chip, by your remark I can see you do really get the essence of and reason for my question, that is going to be helpfull.</div>
<div>Richard, certainly most of what you say is true and even relevant but does not yet hit on the deep implications of the possible answer of my question.</div>
<div>I must emphasize that do not denie any of the experimental facts commonly or less commonly known about quantum optics, etcetera.</div>
<div>Bunching and anti-bunching are true phenomena that shows transfer of energy goes in blips, and with certain statistics associated, in complete accordance of what we may think is a photon. Indeed, this is what IS a photon, this is what defines ot experimentally. </div>
<div>What I am saying is that one can jump to conclusions and imagine a simple picture of a photon being some quantum particle to explain the outcome of the experiments (and for that purpose it will, always, work perfectly). Alternatively one can take a more
involved point of view by asigning an essential role to the emitter and absorber to explain the experiment. Being lazy, that doesn't seem to be a comfortable option, but it does open the door to solving deeper questions:</div>
<div>What is the nature of the photon?<br>
The alternative view relieves the photon from having on board everything to define it. That is the crucial insight.</div>
<div>After a century in which no person has been able to answer the question, this seems to be a viable option. On top of that, it solves non-locality issues.</div>
<div>Cheers, Martin</div>
<div><br>
Verstuurd vanaf mijn iPhone</div>
<div><br>
Op 3 aug. 2015 om 06:13 heeft Richard Gauthier <<a href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" target="_blank">richgauthier@gmail.com</a>> het volgende geschreven:<br>
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<div class="">Hi Chip,</div>
<div class=""> There’s a long history and fight among the founders of quantum mechanics since 1926 about whether quantum processes can be treated as continuous (Schrodinger and others) or discrete quantum jumps (Heisenberg and others). Their two quantum
calculation methods (wave mechanics and matrix mechanics) were shown to be mathematically equivalent. And Einstein's ideas in 1905 about the light quantum (later named photon) as a carrier of light energy weren’t really generally accepted until 1923 with
the Compton effect where photons seem to act like billiard balls in terms of their energy and momentum interactions with electrons. Semi-Classical physics argues that emission and absorption processes are quantized but energy transmission through radiation
remains classical. Most physicists don’t accept semi-classical ideas any more and accept that the photon carries quantized energy given by E=hf even when photons are not being emitted or absorbed. QED supposedly solved the problem by renormalizing infinities
to finite numbers. Dirac was never satisfied with this approach (ugly math), but QED does give very precise answers. So it’s a long and continuing story. I think that Compton wavelength-sized electron models are a key to deeper understanding of all this, because
this length is often treated as a cutoff length in calculating the force between two electrons which might otherwise be treated as point charges associated with infinite energies.</div>
<div class=""> Richard</div>
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<div class="">On Aug 2, 2015, at 7:07 PM, Chip Akins <<a href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com" class="" target="_blank">chipakins@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>
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<span class="" style="">Hi Richard</span></div>
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<span class="" style=""> </span></div>
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<span class="" style="">The question of whether the “photon” is inherently quantized, or just appears quantized to us, through our observation of the reaction of the quantized emitters and absorbers, seems to be an important aspect for creating a full understanding
of the nature of “photons”, and their reaction with particles.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
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<span class="" style="">The process of emission is a quantized process, as is the process of absorption. But since a photon can be any number of wavelengths, depending on the quantized configuration of the emission process, it seems that the photon itself cannot
be strongly quantized, and may have no inherent quantization at all, meaning no forces in itself which cause it to be quantized. We know that fermions have forces which cause their resonant nature and quantization.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="">If I understand Martin’s challenge, it is to show that the photon must be inherently quantized, and not just quantized because of the emitter and absorber. ??</span></div>
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<span class="" style=""> </span></div>
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<span class="" style="">Chip</span></div>
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<span class="" style=""> </span></div>
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<b class=""><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>General [<a href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" target="_blank">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On
Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Richard Gauthier<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Sunday, August 02, 2015 7:54 PM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Questionnaire</span></div>
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Martin,</div>
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That’s fine. But why focus on the photon as not a particle but a process? The emitter, electromagnetic field and absorber are processes also and not particles. So what is the source of existence and stability of all these? Everything is process. So where
do we go from here? Quantum effects are also process. Does that not make them less physical? </div>
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Richard</div>
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On Aug 2, 2015, at 5:38 PM, Mark, Martin van der <<a href="mailto:martin.van.der.mark@philips.com" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">martin.van.der.mark@philips.com</a>> wrote:</div>
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Richard, not true. How does it work?</div>
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It only proves the end result, the quantized transfer, but not whether the field is intrinsically quantized.</div>
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There is an aweful lot of shit and confusion and parottery ( if that is a concept) about this. So, please dont quote it unless you can really explain why it makes the difference.</div>
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My position is actually that this is impossible at the deepest level!</div>
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But the consequence of that is that it is also impossible to make a description of a photon as being a particle! Because it is only a process, and that does not require existence and stability by itself, it aquires it within the context of the exchange of energy
and angular momentum by emitter, electromagnetic field and absorber. This is why the process can have any number of wavelenghts, any polarization and be entangled.</div>
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Cheers, Martin<br class="">
<br class="">
Verstuurd vanaf mijn iPhone</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 12pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<br class="">
Op 3 aug. 2015 om 02:14 heeft Richard Gauthier <<a href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">richgauthier@gmail.com</a>> het volgende geschreven:</p>
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Hello Martin,</div>
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Thanks for your challenge to the group.</div>
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<div class="" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
I’m quoting from the Wikipedia article “Photon” at<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>:
"Although these semiclassical models contributed to the development of quantum mechanics, many further experiments<sup id="cite_ref-2" class=""><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon#cite_note-2" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">[2]</a><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon#cite_note-3" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">[3]</a></sup><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>starting
with<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compton_scattering" title="Compton scattering" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">Compton scattering</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>of
single photons by electrons, first observed in 1923, validated Einstein's hypothesis that<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">light itself</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>is<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantization_%28physics%29" title="Quantization (physics)" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">quantized</a>.
"</div>
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The abstract of reference [2] titled </div>
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<h3 class="" style="margin-right:0in; margin-left:0in; font-size:13.5pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
Photon Antibunching in Resonance Fluorescence, </h3>
<h5 class="" style="margin-right:0in; margin-left:0in; font-size:10pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
H. J. Kimble, M. Dagenais, and L. Mandel</h5>
<h5 class="" style="margin-right:0in; margin-left:0in; font-size:10pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
Phys. Rev. Lett. 39, 691 – Published 12 September 1977</h5>
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says: "The phenomenon of antibunching of photoelectric counts has been observed in resonance fluorescence experiments in which sodium atoms are continuously excited by a dye-laser beam. It is pointed out that, unlike photoelectric bunching, which can be given
a semiclassical interpretation, antibunching is understandable only in terms of a quantized electromagnetic field. The measurement also provides rather direct evidence for an atom undergoing a quantum jump."</div>
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You seem to be claiming that there is no definite experimental proof that light itself is quantized. Does the above experiment contradict your claim? You may say that the above experiment or any single experiment or group of experiments cannot be completely
conclusive. Well, is any physics experiment completely conclusive about a theory? Are you asking the impossible when you ask for conclusive experimental proof?</div>
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all the best,</div>
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Richard</div>
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On Aug 2, 2015, at 4:23 PM, Mark, Martin van der <<a href="mailto:martin.van.der.mark@philips.com" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">martin.van.der.mark@philips.com</a>> wrote:</div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Dear Andrew,</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">I have looked at the questionnaire and realized that the one, most important question is missing!</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Question 2 is closest to it, but not quite as straight to the point.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">The question is to my opinion the most fundamental of any to be asked in the context of the nature of the photon. It is: Does quantization of the transfer of electromagnetic
energy and angular momentum (the process that is mediated by what we call “photon”) resides in the electromagnetic field itself or in the emitter and absorber? Or something else, perhaps.</span></div>
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<div class="" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Anyone may take a position of what he or she likes best of course, and I have my preference of what I would think it to be.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">But if one takes a position as being the truth, it should be accompanied by reference to experimental proof.</span></div>
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<div class="" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">I bet that no one can come up with any reference that is conclusive about this! It is the pink elephant in the room…if it is there we should make it explicit!!!!</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Best regards, Martin</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif; color:navy" lang="DE">Dr. Martin B. van der Mark</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif; color:navy">Principal Scientist, Minimally Invasive Healthcare</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:navy"> </span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif; color:navy">Philips Research Europe - Eindhoven</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif; color:navy">High Tech Campus, Building 34 (WB2.025)</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif; color:navy">Prof. Holstlaan 4</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif; color:navy">5656 AE Eindhoven, The Netherlands</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif; color:navy">Tel: +31 40 2747548</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></div>
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<b class=""><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">General
[<a href="mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="color:purple">mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a>]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On
Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Andrew Meulenberg<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>zaterdag 1 augustus 2015 6:03<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion; Andrew Meulenberg<br class="">
<b class="">Cc:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Mary Fletcher<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Questionnaire</span></div>
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Dear John M,</p>
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Looking forward to talking w you at the conference.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
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I recognized that most of us have too much to say on most of the items. Could you perhaps provide chapter or page of sections of your book that pertain to the questions? That would give an interested party a handy guide to the more detailed info and to your
book.</p>
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Andrew</div>
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On Fri, Jul 31, 2015 at 6:02 PM, <<a href="mailto:john@macken.com" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="color:purple">john@macken.com</span></a>> wrote:</div>
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<span class="" style="color:rgb(68,68,68)">Hello Everyone,</span></div>
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<span class="" style="color:rgb(68,68,68)">I am currently in Iceland and starting tomorrow I will be in Greenland for 7 days. Most of that time I will definitely be out of email contact and the rest of the time it is questionable if I will have any internet.
I will be returning to the US just before the conference. I will arrive in San Diego about noon on Monday, Aug. 10. Therefore I will miss the Sunday night get-together.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="color:rgb(68,68,68)">I have found it very hard to write the concise answers required for the questionnaire. The reason is that I have much more detailed answers for each of the questions than most other people in the group. For example,
I have just finished what I believe is the final substantive draft of my book titled “The Universe is Only Spacetime”. It is now over 400 pages. The portion of the book addressed by the questions extends from chapter 4 to chapter 11. This is a total of 134
pages. Furthermore, I get into substantial quantitative detail and proofs which make short answers impossible.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="color:rgb(68,68,68)">For example, with electrons I have explained and quantified two components of the electron model. This model does not derive either the electron’s Compton frequency or the fine structure constant. However, if these
two numbers are provided, I can derive the electron’s energy, inertia, gravitational curvature of spacetime, gravitational force with another fundamental particle, and electrostatic force with another fundamental particle. This derivation comes from the properties
of spacetime and the particle model. If I just proceed from first principles, I generate the electrostatic force if both particles had Planck charge rather than elementary charge e. In an earlier email, John W. considered this to be a defect. He said that
I had missed the correct value by more than a factor of 100 (missed by 1/</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Cambria Math',serif; color:rgb(68,68,68)">á</span><span class="" style="color:rgb(68,68,68)">). This is ironic because I was quite happy with
this answer. I was calculation the force assuming a coupling constant of 1, not the electron’s force with a mysterious coupling constant of alpha (</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Cambria Math',serif; color:rgb(68,68,68)">á</span><span class="" style="color:rgb(68,68,68)">).</span></div>
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<span class="" style="color:rgb(68,68,68)">I believe that this is the first time that a model of a fundamental particle has been able to generate the gravitational force and the electrostatic force even assuming a coupling constant of 1. If you know of any
other model which has passed this test, I would be interested in hearing about it. </span></div>
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<span class="" style="color:rgb(68,68,68)">I have not mentioned it before, but my model also generates the strong force. The model also produces asymptotic freedom when quarks are bound together into hadrons and explains why the strong force increases as the
separation distance is increased beyond the natural distance which produces asymptotic freedom. (all in the book.)</span></div>
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<span class="" style="color:rgb(68,68,68)">On another point, I believe that any model of particles that does not include waves which modulate the rate of time will never be able to generate either curved spacetime or the gravitational force. It is my understanding
that Chandra’s CTF model only involves the 3 spatial dimensions without involving time. If he introduces time into his model, then my model and his model would be very close.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="color:rgb(68,68,68)">Finally, I object to characterizing an electron as being a confined photon. I believe that a photon and an electron are both made of the same fundamental building block. Therefore photons can be converted to electron/positron
pairs and vice versa. They are closely related, but saying that an electron is an oscillating confined photon implies that a photon is the fundamental building block of the universe or at least particles. It also implies that we will never be able to understand
an electric field, a magnetic field or a charge in terms of a distortion of a more fundamental component.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="color:rgb(68,68,68)">I explain all of these in terms of a distortion of energetic spacetime. I claim that an electric field, a magnetic field and even a gravitational field have both an oscillating component and a non-oscillating component.
I give equations for these in the book. I show that the oscillating component gives the correct energy density to the electric and magnetic field. I also propose that a gravitational field has an energy density. I combine this with the energy of the spacetime
field and show how the interaction generates a black hole when the energy density of the gravitational field at a particular frequency matches the energy density of spacetime at that frequency.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="color:rgb(68,68,68)">While I have finished this most recent revision of the book, it has not been loaded onto the website yet. There is a problem with the website that is preventing new material from being loaded onto the website. This
problem is being worked on by one of my sons and should be fixed in a few days.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="color:rgb(68,68,68)">John M.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">-----Original Message-----<br class="">
From: "Andrew Meulenberg" <<a href="mailto:mules333@gmail.com" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="color:purple">mules333@gmail.com</span></a>><br class="">
Sent: Friday, July 31, 2015 10:57am<br class="">
To: "Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion" <<a href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="color:purple">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a>><br class="">
Cc: "Mary Fletcher" <<a href="mailto:marycfletcher@gmail.com" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span class="" style="color:purple">marycfletcher@gmail.com</span></a>><br class="">
Subject: [General] Questionnaire</span></p>
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<span class="" style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Dear Folks,</span></p>
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<span class="" style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">We have 4 contributors so far. It is very illuminating. I hope that at some point we can get convergence on at least some of the questions. John W. has added a question that everyone can add to the end of
the list:</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">QUESTION 14: By what mechanism is the electron confined?</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">I do not have time to answer the good comments in the individual emails right now (wife and premature twins, Grant and Remington, are in the hospital and all doing well). However, I hope to have time at the
Conference to do so in person for those present.</span></p>
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<span class="" style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">I will not be arriving until 8:16PM on Sunday evening, so I cannot join the group (where ever) until about 9PM. Please do not wait until then to get started. I will be leaving Friday evening.</span></p>
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<span class="" style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">My time and schedule are somewhat constrained by that of Bob Hudgins and Mary Fletcher, who will arrive earlier in the day. We are planning on renting a car and staying at a motel in South Bay where the rates
are more reasonable. if anyone else is doing something similar, please let me know.</span></p>
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<span class="" style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Best to all,</span></p>
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<span class="" style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Andrew</span></div>
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