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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;tab-stops:12.0cm"><span style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:
"Times New Roman"" lang="EN-US">Dear All,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;tab-stops:12.0cm"><span style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:
"Times New Roman"" lang="EN-US">I think we have to stop getting mixed up in mere words. The following is a personal
view, of course. If you do not like it in the words I'm going to use then I can always invent new words! John D: how likely do you think it is I might forget about ep <--> gamma-gamma?<br>
<br>
For me charged is what is photon is not. The "photon" bit is the uncharged, lightspeed, unpinned, free part of the total system. That is just what the word means. It is the pure-field bit. But field is not the most fundamental thing. It is a manifestation of
a deeper stuff - in that form for a while - but not fundamental. Likewise "charge" is not fundamental. One cannot isolate "charge" separately from the charged particles. There is no charged fluid, infinitely divisible, only charged particles. What charge
is defined as in the textbooks is the divergence of E. This is not the whole story, clearly, as the "E" is not fundamental either. One ends up in a circular arguments as to whether field comes from charge or charge from field when, in fact, neither is the
case. One needs a deeper thing that gives rise to BOTH charge AND field, charge and field then being manifestations of this deeper principle. For me, charge is the time-like vector component, whatever its origin. To first order, it can be derived from either
the scalar (the mass) or the bi-vector (the field). </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;tab-stops:12.0cm"><span style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:
"Times New Roman"" lang="EN-US">I think the deeper principles are what I have called "vot" (root-energy density),
the conservation of vot and conservation of total energy <span style="mso-spacerun:yes">
</span>and the local conditions of the manifestations of time and space - elementary lines, areas, volumes and so on. The new, linear coupled differential equations are an attempt to find a better set of dynamical variables that govern the motion and transformation
of field to charge, charge to mass and so on. Of the possible ways vot can play.<br>
<br>
As to what David has said. Yes, in part. The dynamics are such that field can transform to field in "empty" space, a-la-Maxwell. Look at the equations! NO charge needed there. But to have a probability of catching field and sending it out again one needs a
localised, spinning field vortex - a charged particle. These have elements transforming as a rest-mass - which gives a kernel about which the field can pivot. Not static but in a stationary vortex. There is no elementary charge - only an inter-actor in equilibrium
with all other charged particles in the universe. The ubiquity of charge comes about then because they continually exchange. Any "larger" charge loses it to "smaller" charges. The net interaction is precisely overall charge neutral because every charged interaction
has two ends, a creation one and an equal and opposite destruction one. It is a conserved fluid. This is pretty trivially obvious stuff!<br>
<br>
After the event then yes - such things are an enabler of morphing from one state to another - partly because these are the only "fixed" points in the universe where that can happen. These then define a position (x,y,z) = (0,0,0) in a frame where, for them,
time ticks in accordance with their inner frequency. That is it. That is all they “know”. The outer universe is then measured for them in terms of their inner rulers and clocks. Outer “events” coming in from a direction and adding to their energy, happen only
if they have a partner to give the inner complexity required to absorb. Otherwise they just ride on the wave – not taking it in. Think about what you observe. Your theoretical model must parallel this. Kiss.<br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;tab-stops:12.0cm"><span style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:
"Times New Roman"" lang="EN-US">I'm going to try to do better in describing this in the final versions of may papers.<br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;tab-stops:12.0cm"><span style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:
"Times New Roman"" lang="EN-US">For a full description, of course, one needs to go on to the non-linear terms. This
is for a future paper and future discussions.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;tab-stops:12.0cm"><span style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:
"Times New Roman"" lang="EN-US">Regards, John W.</span></p>
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<div style="direction: ltr;" id="divRpF850388"><font face="Tahoma" color="#000000" size="2"><b>From:</b> General [general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org] on behalf of John Duffield [johnduffield@btconnect.com]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, August 17, 2015 8:05 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'David Mathes'; 'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'<br>
<b>Cc:</b> 'Kyran Williamson'; 'Nick Bailey'; 'Anthony Booth'; 'Manohar .'; 'Joakim Pettersson'; 'Ariane Mandray'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Light from Light reflection<br>
</font><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Don’t forget that gamma-gamma pair production creates charge particles, and that annihllation reverses the process. That charged particle is just another photon
in </span><span style="font-family:"Wingdings 3"; color:#1F497D">P</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:#1F497D"> disguise.
</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif" lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif" lang="EN-US"> General [mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>David Mathes<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 17 August 2015 07:07<br>
<b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion <general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Kyran Williamson <kyran_williamson@hotmail.com>; Nick Bailey <nick@bailey-family.org.uk>; Anthony Booth <abooth@ieee.org>; Manohar . <manohar_berlin@hotmail.com>; Joakim Pettersson <joakimbits@gmail.com>; Ariane Mandray <ariane.mandray@wanadoo.fr><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Light from Light reflection</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">John W</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">So we are left to conclude that there is a root photon with all sorts of types of photons possible through conditioning, constraints, and confinement.
However, charge is the only enabler of morphing from one state to another whether it be photon to photon or photon to particle, electron in particular.</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">Should we count the ways?</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">David </span></p>
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<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black"> John Williamson <<a href="mailto:John.Williamson@glasgow.ac.uk" target="_blank">John.Williamson@glasgow.ac.uk</a>><br>
<b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion <<a href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>>
<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Nick Bailey <<a href="mailto:nick@bailey-family.org.uk" target="_blank">nick@bailey-family.org.uk</a>>; Anthony Booth <<a href="mailto:abooth@ieee.org" target="_blank">abooth@ieee.org</a>>; Kyran Williamson <<a href="mailto:kyran_williamson@hotmail.com" target="_blank">kyran_williamson@hotmail.com</a>>;
Manohar . <<a href="mailto:manohar_berlin@hotmail.com" target="_blank">manohar_berlin@hotmail.com</a>>; Joakim Pettersson <<a href="mailto:joakimbits@gmail.com" target="_blank">joakimbits@gmail.com</a>>; Ariane Mandray <<a href="mailto:ariane.mandray@wanadoo.fr" target="_blank">ariane.mandray@wanadoo.fr</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, August 16, 2015 10:34 PM<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Light from Light reflection</span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif; color:black" lang="EN-US">Dear all,</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif; color:black" lang="EN-US">Before this degenerates into a free-for-all of wishful thinking – Al is spot-on. At least to a very (very) good approximation.
Experimentally, pretty much all the action takes place right next to (existing) charges. Even then, there pretty much needs to be at least two of them to get the coupling to photons (hence Al saying H2 in place of e or P). Even near particles, notwithstanding
the stupid numbers bandied about for the “energy” of the vacuum, the radiative corrections (due to virtual particles jumping about in the vacuum) are miniscule. In probability terms, to first order (usually called zero’th order), the main interaction (a la
Maxwell) gives you a probabilty factor of 1/137 for the emitter, 1/137 for the absorber and then the usual geometric effects giving inverse square. The corrections introduce an extra 1/137 squared AND give you evanescent attenuation (exponential attenuation
then) and all that to cope with their virtuality etc. Maxwells equations are very (very) under-constrained as they stand. They allow things to go not only in straight lines (our usual conception), but also spheres, disks, cylinders, toroids, bispheres, parallel-plate
capacitors (solved by Maxwell, conformally), twisted wave-guides … pretty much a spastic hamburger provided it is conformal and orthonormal so that the definition of div, grad and curl can be achieved at a point. That is all you need. Just as well because
that is all you have. You may hope that QED would fix this but this is a vain hope: QED only operates at all very near to the (point) particles it presumes. All the action is in charge-charge inter-actions. That something was emitted and subsequently absorbed
in an “event” is a-postiori. One can only say, a-priori, something about the probability (as Hans commented) of such an event occurring over-all. Even a-postiori one can only talk about the possible<a name="_GoBack"></a> paths allowed point-to-point by your
world-view – your model.</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif; color:black" lang="EN-US">Phased arrays (the sort of thing John M. was talking about) are not just theoretical ideas. They are used, and have been
used, in engineering applications, for decades to either send out or detect directed light (or radio waves more usually). One is still inter-acting with charges – albeit collectively – when one talks about such systems. The coherence (and the constraints)
is in the engineered system.</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif; color:black" lang="EN-US">If you want to go further than this you need to go beyond Maxwell and QED. Not only this but you need to able to point to,
either existing experiment that is only explained by your new paradigm, or propose proper experiment to test it. Otherwise it is not real.</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif; color:black" lang="EN-US">My extra constraints of “absolute relativity”, do constrain light to come in “lumps” over any distance, but do not constrain
an axis – it still could be anything (or everything at once!) provided the fixed-parameters of the emission and absorption are satisfied. It does not predict light must go in linear lines, but rather that non-quantised photons (or differently quantized photons)
should also exist if one can manipulate the emitter and absorber into suitable collective systems.</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif; color:black" lang="EN-US">Regards, John W.</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt; background:white"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif; color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif; color:black"> General [general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org]
on behalf of <a href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de" target="_blank">af.kracklauer@web.de</a> [af.kracklauer@web.de]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, August 17, 2015 2:16 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank">
general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Nature of Light and Particles<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Light from Light reflection</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:black">Hi all:</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:black"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:black">Wave interaction (i.e., mutual modification of each other) only ocurrs where and when they meet at a charge, which can be in a cavity
wall, mirror, lens, detector element, antenna, H2 in deep space, etc.. THERE IS NO WAY TO EMPIRICALLY TELL WHAT AN IMAGINED WAVE IS DOING WHERE THERE IS NO CHARGE, even while Maxwell's equs. describe propagation sucessessfully in terms of what shows up at
charges.</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:black"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:black">Here again, I'm just the mail man---Maxwell is talking.</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:black">Gesendet:</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:black"> Samstag, 15. August 2015 um 19:17
Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "John Macken" <<a href="mailto:john@macken.com" target="_blank">john@macken.com</a>><br>
<b>An:</b> "Nature of Light and Particles" <<a href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [General] Light from Light reflection</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:blue">David and A. F.,</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:blue">First I will answer David. You say that “</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:black">conservation
of momentum needs to be conserved both externally <i>and internally”</i></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:blue">. It appears as if you are referring to angular momentum when you say “internally”. I agree that both
types of momentum must be conserved and they are independent of each other. When discussing the linear momentum imparted to an atom or microwave antenna, it is possible to ignore angular momentum. The angular momentum can never mask the linear momentum that
must be conserved. Similarly, it is possible to ignore linear momentum transfer when discussing angular momentum transfer.</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:blue">A.F. Kracklauer brings up an interesting point that I missed previously. He says, “</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:black">Isn't
it the charges in the laser interacting, not the emitted photons?</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:blue">” One of the reasons that I partially qualified my previous answer is because there is some interaction between
the spherical waves being emitted in the opposite direction to the wave propagation direction and the charges in the atoms. In a laser oscillator, standing waves are formed because there is propagation in both directions. However, in an laser amplifier the
“propagating waves” are only propagating in one direction. Still any one atom is emitting waves in all directions. It is the waves with a backwards component that is imparting momentum to the other atoms. Similarly, the microwave antennas are emitting waves
in all directions and it is the backwards propagating components that are imparting momentum to other atoms.</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:blue">However, this does not destroy the main point. It is the phased emission of spherical waves that results in a small component of the spherical
wave coherently adding to the other waves. The intensity is amplitude squared which results in the well-defined laser beam or well-defined microwave beam. Therefore, in my view this is an example of the interaction of waves.</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:blue">On a related subject, I do not understand how it is possible to claim that photons only interact with themselves. When two different laser
beams are superimposed in a beam splitter, the output beams are amplitude modulated at the beat frequency between the two laser beams. I used to work with laser radar systems and this was a daily occurrence. The two different lasers clearly are generating
different photons, yet they interact with each other when they are combined. Even if the two beams from two lasers merely overlap with no beam splitter, the beat signal can be seen if a small detector is inserted into the region where the beams overlap.
For greatest signal, the area of a detector must be small enough that it only intercepts one interference fringe. Another alternative is to mask the detector so that it sees multiple fringes but only sees either the even or odd numbered fringes. One of my
better patents is based on this principle.</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:blue"> </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:blue">Finally, I would like to comment on the transfer of angular momentum (David’s internal momentum). I once did a calculation where I looked
at the torque force that needed to be exerted on a carbon monoxide molecule to transfer the h bar angular momentum at the CO molecule’s fundamental rotational frequency. I do not remember the exact answer, but the torque momentum that needed to be transferred
to the CO molecule to accomplish the angular momentum transfer was about 1,000,000 times greater than the linear momentum transferred if it was assumed that the torque was exerted over the radius of the CO molecule. It only made sense if you assumed an interaction
radius equal to an object that was one wavelength in circumference. This is the same area as the interaction cross-section that Chandra mentioned for an atom or molecule to absorption of a photon.
</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:blue">I suspect that even linearly polarized photons have a wave structure that carries a specific angular momentum as orbital angular momentum.
It requires a special type of experiment to prove or disprove this contention. </span>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:blue">John M. </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black"> General [<a href="mailto:general-bounces+john=macken.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank">mailto:general-bounces+john=macken.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>David Mathes<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, August 15, 2015 12:34 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion <<a href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Light from Light reflection</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">John</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:black">For any particle - mass or massless - conservation of momentum needs to be conserved both externally
<i>and internally</i>. </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:black">Internal particle absorption of the recoil means one needs to attend to the
<i id="yiv1709684791yui_3_16_0_1_1439666383354_4518">coupling between internal and external systems</i> to provide a clear picture of linear and angular momentum conservation.</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black"> </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">David</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black"> John Macken <</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:black"><span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">john@macken.com</span></span></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black">><br>
<b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles <</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:black"><span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></span></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black">><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, August 15, 2015 12:28 PM<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Light from Light reflection</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:blue">David,</span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:blue">I did not read all the article, but I read enough to conclude that it does not repeal the conservation of momentum. If a photon is emitted, it is carrying
away momentum. The emitting body must absorb the opposite moment. If the emitting body is an isolated atom, then the recoiling atom has de Broglie waves with exactly the same wavelength (same momentum) as the emitted photon when observed from the atom’s
original frame of reference.</span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:blue">However, this is somewhat off the major point which was that the interaction of waves can determine the direction of emission of a photon’s quantized
energy. In my way of looking at this, it is an example of waves interacting. </span>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:blue">John M.
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black"> General [</span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black"><span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">mailto:general-bounces+john=macken.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>David Mathes<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, August 15, 2015 11:57 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion <</span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black"><span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Light from Light reflection</span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">John M</span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">The method you propose is classical not in keeping with recent papers on radiation reaction, most notably a relativistic approach as derived by Fearn
2012 (one of Miloni's students now a professor)</span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black"><a href="http://arxiv.org/abs/1212.4469" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">http://arxiv.org/abs/1212.4469</span></a></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">The 3D amorphous phased array is a great gendanken. 2D phased arrays are well known. However, 3D optical arrays suffer from all sorts of fields, masses
and energy transfers as well as dispersion issues. The reason folks like the laser is due in part to the non-linearity effects that can be produced. </span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">Furthermore, any approach may not produce a visible recoil since conservation of momentum needs to be conserved both externally and internally to a particle.
Internal particle effects may "absorb" the recoil whether at the atomic or elementary particle level. So one needs to attend to both linear and angular momentum conservation.</span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">Add to this is the potential associated with certain models using scalar fields, and one ends up in GR where the speed of light is lower within the amorphous
array for whatever reason. </span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">Finally, there is the question of NIH vs interference, especially at light like velocities.</span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">Other than that, a great idea!</span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">David</span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black"> John Macken <</span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black"><span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">john@macken.com</span></span></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">><br>
<b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles <</span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black"><span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></span></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, August 15, 2015 9:50 AM<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Light from Light reflection</span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">Hello All,</span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">It was great meeting with all of you.
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">I would like to introduce a different perspective to the discussion of the interaction of light with a thought experiment. Suppose that we have a billion
small microwave antennas randomly distributed in space. The antennas on average are separated by a distance equal to about 10% of the wavelength that they will emit and the size of each antenna is much smaller than a wavelength. A billion of these antennas
from a “cloud” about 100 wavelengths in diameter. If each antenna emits randomly, then the total cloud of antennas would emit an incoherent spherical emission pattern. However, if all antennas emit the same frequency and if the phase is properly controlled,
then the emitted radiation can form a beam with a divergence angle of about 0.01 radian. Furthermore, the beam can be steered to propagate in any direction with proper phase adjustment. When the emission forms a coherent beam, then the cloud of antennas
feels momentum in the opposite direction of the emitted radiation. This momentum would accelerate the cloud of antennas in the recoil direction.</span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">The example just given is a simulation of what happens in a laser. Each atom in the excited state can either emit a photon by spontaneous emission or
by stimulated emission. When stimulated emission occurs, the emission is still generally spherical, but the phase of emission is coordinated so that part of the spherical emission is coherently added to the beam causing the stimulated emission. The spherical
emission of a single atom “interacts” with the other waves to form a collimated beam propagating in a particular direction. The force imparted to the emitting atom is random if the emission is spontaneous or in a particular direction if it is stimulated.
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">In my way of looking at this, this example satisfies a loose definition of interaction of light waves. I assume that there might be a way of looking
at this in which it can be argued that there was no interaction of waves, but this position will require stretching of definitions.
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">John M.</span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black"> General [</span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black"><span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">mailto:general-bounces+john=macken.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>David Mathes<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, August 14, 2015 8:58 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion <</span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black"><span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">>;
Andrew Meulenberg <</span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black"><span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">mules333@gmail.com</span></span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Light from Light reflection</span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">Andrew</span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">One paper that might be of interest is:</span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black"><a href="http://arxiv.org/abs/1205.5897" title="Abstract" id="yiv1709684791yui_3_16_0_1_1439609808422_5064" target="_blank"><b><span style="font-size:10.5pt; font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; text-decoration:none">arXiv:1205.5897</span></b></a></span><b><span style="font-size:10.5pt; font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black"> [</span></b><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black"><a href="http://arxiv.org/pdf/1205.5897" title="Download PDF" id="yiv1709684791yui_3_16_0_1_1439609808422_5066" target="_blank"><b><span style="font-size:10.5pt; font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; text-decoration:none">pdf</span></b></a></span><b><span style="font-size:10.5pt; font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">]</span></b><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span style="font-size:18.0pt; font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">Spin and Orbital Angular Momenta of Light Reflected from a Cone</span></b><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:14.05pt; background:white"><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black"><a href="http://arxiv.org/find/physics/1/au:+Mansuripur_M/0/1/0/all/0/1" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; text-decoration:none">Masud
Mansuripur</span></a></span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">, </span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black"><a href="http://arxiv.org/find/physics/1/au:+Zakharian_A/0/1/0/all/0/1" id="yiv1709684791yui_3_16_0_1_1439609808422_5078" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; text-decoration:none">Armis
R. Zakharian</span></a></span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">, </span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black"><a href="http://arxiv.org/find/physics/1/au:+Wright_E/0/1/0/all/0/1" id="yiv1709684791yui_3_16_0_1_1439609808422_5080" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; text-decoration:none">Ewan
M. Wright</span></a></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">Another paper is:</span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">Fearn 2012 </span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black"><a href="http://arxiv.org/abs/1212.4469" id="yiv1709684791yui_3_16_0_1_1439609808422_4533" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">[1212.4469]
Radiation Reaction Force on a Particle</span></a></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black"> Andrew Meulenberg <</span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black"><span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">mules333@gmail.com</span></span></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">><br>
<b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion <</span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black"><span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></span></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">>;
Andrew Meulenberg <</span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black"><span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">mules333@gmail.com</span></span></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">><br>
<b id="yiv1709684791yui_3_16_0_1_1439609808422_4530">Sent:</b> Friday, August 14, 2015 8:36 PM<br>
<b id="yiv1709684791yui_3_16_0_1_1439609808422_4528">Subject:</b> Re: [General] Light from Light reflection</span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">Forgot the paper.</span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">On Fri, Aug 14, 2015 at 11:33 PM, Andrew Meulenberg <</span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black"><span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">mules333@gmail.com</span></span></span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">>
wrote:</span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">Gentlemen,</span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">In discussions after Bob Hudgins' presentation on Wednesday, I realized that we had been too close to the problem (and solution) and did not recognize
the information gap that existed within the community. The reference was with regards to the nature of light-light interaction. The paper by Dowling (attached) identifies the problem between the NIW school and the light-light interaction school.</span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">It is necessary to emphasize and clarify some points.</span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Dowling proposed that IDENTICAL waves interact. However,
</span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif"></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" id="yiv1709684791yui_3_16_0_1_1439609808422_5353" style="color:black; margin-bottom:10.0pt; background:white">
<span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">he was unable to PROVE reflection, rather than transmission.</span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif">
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<span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Mathematically the results are identical.</span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif">
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<span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">In Dowling's paper, he demonstrates that even identical
<b>components</b> of colliding waves have this property.</span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif">
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<span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">The difference of the colliding waves always is transmitted, not reflected.</span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif">
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<span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Therefore, when added to the identical portion (that is the reflected part), the sum becomes equivalent to a transmitted wave.</span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif">
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<span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">The paper showed that the differences could be in:</span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif">
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<span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:black"><span style="">7.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
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<span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black"><span style="">1.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">phase</span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black">
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</span></span></span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">amplitude</span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black">
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<span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black"><span style="">3.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">polarity</span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black">
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</span></span></span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">change in frequency</span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black">
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">Thus, while Chandra's NIW view is almost always correct, if based on numbers alone, there is a growing field (based on lasers), which proves that interaction
of identical light goes beyond Dirac's statement that photons can only interact with themselves. With this new information, it is possible to view ordinary light from a different perspective. "Any identical portions of light beams can (and will) reflect from
each other." </span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">An example of this can be demonstrated by an introductory-physics device (Newton's cradle,
</span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momentum#Conservation" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momentum#Conservation</span></a></span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">
). Only if equal numbers of balls are dropped simultaneously will there be reflection of the same number as the input. If unequal numbers are dropped simultaneously, then it would appear that the larger number of balls is transmitted thru the set of balls.
No one would say that the balls travel thru the stationary balls. Momentum reflection is the obvious answer in this case - and in the case of light.
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">Had Dowling remembered this demonstration, he would have been able to say with absolute authority that light can reflect from light. The appendix of
our paper is a mathematical proof of the null-momentum point in the center of the 'dark' zone for equal waves. This is the wave equivalent of the equal-particle demonstration.</span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">My task for the next conference may be to demonstrate how this reflection effect affects the photon structure within the electron.</span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black">Andrew</span><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif; color:black"></span></p>
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