<html><head></head><body><div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;"><div>Gentlemen:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Is there counterevidence to Ed Dowdy's observation that there is NO light defection about the Sun for rays not passing through the corona where they must be diverted as plasma waves?</div>
<div>
<div name="quote" style="margin:10px 5px 5px 10px; padding: 10px 0 10px 10px; border-left:2px solid #C3D9E5; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">
<div style="margin:0 0 10px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Freitag, 09. Oktober 2015 um 06:24 Uhr<br/>
<b>Von:</b> "Wolfgang Baer" <wolf@nascentinc.com><br/>
<b>An:</b> general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org<br/>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [General] relativistic mass</div>
<div name="quoted-content">
<div style="background-color: rgb(255,255,255);">Has anyone ever measured the gravitational weight of light in a bottle?<br/>
Does a hot hollow ball weigh more than a cold one?<br/>
<br/>
WOlf
<pre class="moz-signature">Dr. Wolfgang Baer
Research Director
Nascent Systems Inc.
tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
E-mail <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="wolf@NascentInc.com" target="_parent">wolf@NascentInc.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/8/2015 3:51 PM, Adam K wrote:</div>
<blockquote>
<div>Hi Martin,
<div> </div>
<div>Yes, general relativity. That link references the book I keep quoting in this discussion list, which is all about general relativity. Schrodinger introduces the basic idea and its consequences very lucidly. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>The origin of mass was always the sticking point of this theory, and was where Einstein focused his efforts for many decades. He called the representation of mass in the theory an <i>asylum ignorantiae</i>. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Adam</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 3:05 PM, Mark, Martin van der <span><<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="martin.van.der.mark@philips.com" target="_parent">martin.van.der.mark@philips.com</a>></span> wrote:
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0 0 0 0.8ex;border-left: 1.0px rgb(204,204,204) solid;padding-left: 1.0ex;">
<div>
<div>Dear Adam K,</div>
<div>Thank you for the quote, and isn't it a puzzling one? "The deflection is due to gravitation AND mass!!" Well that is one mass too many, in my opinion, but i think this should be interpreted as if not just Newtonion gravitation is working but, instead, general relativity (which includes corrections to the former).</div>
<div> </div>
<div>John D, i have not recently responded to your comments, but thank you very much indeed for the useful explanations combined with your great sense of humor! The helicopter one with not finding the hard bits actually made it physically impossible for me to hit the small keys on my phone for a while.</div>
<div>Cheers!</div>
<div>Very best regards, Martin<br/>
<br/>
Verstuurd vanaf mijn iPhone</div>
<div><br/>
Op 8 okt. 2015 om 23:23 heeft "<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="davidmathes8@yahoo.com" target="_parent">davidmathes8@yahoo.com</a>" <<a href="davidmathes8@yahoo.com" target="_parent">davidmathes8@yahoo.com</a>> het volgende geschreven:<br/>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div>
<div style="color: rgb(0,0,0);background-color: rgb(255,255,255);font-family: HelveticaNeue , Helvetica Neue , Helvetica , Arial , Lucida Grande , sans-serif;font-size: 16.0px;">
<div>Adam</div>
<div> </div>
<div>For the light rays near the sun, wouldn't one need not just E & M fields. To identify the gravitational component,one would have to rigorous eliminate effects from the weak and strong forces as well. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Also, there may be some value in considering Dirac's symmetric version of the Maxwell equations. In doing so, magnetism should be considered as a separate force, a fifth force if you will.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>David</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote style="border-left: 2.0px solid rgb(16,16,255);margin-left: 5.0px;margin-top: 5.0px;padding-left: 5.0px;">
<div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue , Helvetica Neue , Helvetica , Arial , Lucida Grande , sans-serif;font-size: 16.0px;">
<div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue , Helvetica Neue , Helvetica , Arial , Lucida Grande , sans-serif;font-size: 16.0px;">
<div>
<hr size="1"/><font face="Arial" size="2"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> Adam K <<a href="afokay@gmail.com" target="_parent">afokay@gmail.com</a>><br/>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion <<a href="general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_parent">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>><br/>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Thursday, October 8, 2015 12:41 PM<br/>
<span><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [General] relativistic mass</span></font></div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>With the danger of producing the impression that I have only read one book, Martin I thought you would enjoy this quote:
<div> </div>
<div><i>The deflection of light rays that pass near the sun is not a purely gravitational phenomenon, it is due to the fact that an electromagnetic field possesses energy and momentum, hence also mass.</i>
<div> </div>
<div>From page 1, here: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://strangebeautiful.com/other-texts/schrodinger-st-struc.pdf" target="_blank">http://strangebeautiful.com/other-texts/schrodinger-st-struc.pdf</a>
<div> </div>
<div>Adam</div>
<div> </div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 12:33 PM, Mark, Martin van der <span><<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="martin.van.der.mark@philips.com" target="_parent">martin.van.der.mark@philips.com</a>></span> wrote:
<blockquote style="margin: 0 0 0 0.8ex;border-left: 1.0px rgb(204,204,204) solid;padding-left: 1.0ex;">Dear Andrew,<br clear="none"/>
The paper "light is heavy" is no more, and no less, than a supposedly didactic and the only consistent explanation of special relativity and its consequences. Most important points are that there are some confusions:<br clear="none"/>
1) mass is not matter<br clear="none"/>
2) energy is equivalent, exactly the same as, mass: E=mc^2<br clear="none"/>
3) light is massive, both in the inertial and gravitational sense, as is obvious from experiment<br clear="none"/>
4) the greatest confusion is about light being massless, which indeed it would be if it couldn't/didn't move. The whole point is that light is always moving at the speed of light, so it is a non-existing limit.<br clear="none"/>
<br clear="none"/>
Weighing a box with a molecular gas, or that of a "photon" gas give the same kind of result: the gravitational mass of the gas plus the weight of the box. Light is gravitationally deflected by large masses, experimentally. Light carries momentum and energy.<br clear="none"/>
<br clear="none"/>
There is nothing new in what i say, it is consistent with Einsteinian relativity an represents the vision of Herman weyl too, and many others<br clear="none"/>
<br clear="none"/>
Best, Martin<br clear="none"/>
<br clear="none"/>
Verstuurd vanaf mijn iPhone
<div>
<div><br clear="none"/>
> Op 8 okt. 2015 om 19:52 heeft Andrew Meulenberg <<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mules333@gmail.com" target="_parent">mules333@gmail.com</a>> het volgende geschreven:<br clear="none"/>
><br clear="none"/>
> Dear Martin,<br clear="none"/>
><br clear="none"/>
> In your "Light is Heavy" you state:<br clear="none"/>
><br clear="none"/>
> "In the case of light, the rest mass is zero, but the gravitational mass equals the inertial mass, which is identical to the relativistic mass."<br clear="none"/>
><br clear="none"/>
> Do you have any reference for my contention that the relativistic mass of particles is bound EM-radiation?<br clear="none"/>
><br clear="none"/>
> In the case of electron/positron annihilation, restmass is converted to relativistic mass & then to radiation. However, I do not know of any text or paper that identifies relativistic mass as bound EM-radiation. Your statement is close to that.<br clear="none"/>
><br clear="none"/>
> Andrew</div>
</div>
> _______________________________________________<br clear="none"/>
> If you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light and Particles General Discussion List at <a href="martin.van.der.mark@philips.com" target="_parent"> martin.van.der.mark@philips.com</a><br clear="none"/>
> <a href="<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/martin.van.der.mark%40philips.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1" target="_blank">http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/martin.van.der.mark%40philips.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1</a>"><br clear="none"/>
> Click here to unsubscribe<br clear="none"/>
> </a><br clear="none"/>
<br clear="none"/>
________________________________<br clear="none"/>
The information contained in this message may be confidential and legally protected under applicable law. The message is intended solely for the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, forwarding, dissemination, or reproduction of this message is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by return e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message.<br clear="none"/>
_______________________________________________<br clear="none"/>
If you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light and Particles General Discussion List at <a href="afokay@gmail.com" target="_parent"> afokay@gmail.com</a><br clear="none"/>
<a href="<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/afokay%40gmail.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1" target="_blank">http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/afokay%40gmail.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1</a>">
<div><br/>
</div>
<div><br clear="none"/>
Click here to unsubscribe<br clear="none"/>
</a></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div> </div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>_______________________________________________<br clear="none"/>
If you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light and Particles General Discussion List at <a href="davidmathes8@yahoo.com" target="_parent"> davidmathes8@yahoo.com</a><br clear="none"/>
<a href="<a href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/davidmathes8%40yahoo.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1" target="_blank">http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/davidmathes8%40yahoo.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1</a>"><br clear="none"/>
<span>Click here to unsubscribe<br clear="none"/>
</a></span></div>
<br/>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<div><span><span>_______________________________________________</span><br/>
<span>If you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light and Particles General Discussion List at <a href="martin.van.der.mark@philips.com" target="_parent">martin.van.der.mark@philips.com</a></span><br/>
<span><a href="<a href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/martin.van.der.mark%40philips.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1" target="_blank">http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/martin.van.der.mark%40philips.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1</a>"></span><br/>
<span>Click here to unsubscribe</span><br/>
<span></a></span></span></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br/>
_______________________________________________<br/>
If you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light and Particles General Discussion List at <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="afokay@gmail.com" target="_parent">afokay@gmail.com</a><br/>
<a href="<a href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/afokay%40gmail.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1" target="_blank">http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/afokay%40gmail.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1</a>"><br/>
Click here to unsubscribe<br/>
</a><br/>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"> </fieldset>
<pre>_______________________________________________
If you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light and Particles General Discussion List at <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="Wolf@nascentinc.com" target="_parent">Wolf@nascentinc.com</a>
<a href=<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/wolf%40nascentinc.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1" target="_blank">"http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/wolf%40nascentinc.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1"</a>>
Click here to unsubscribe
</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br/>
_______________________________________________ If you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light and Particles General Discussion List at af.kracklauer@web.de <a href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/af.kracklauer%40web.de?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1" target="_blank"> Click here to unsubscribe </a></div>
</div>
</div>
</div></div></body></html>