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<div style="margin:0 0 10px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Montag, 12. Oktober 2015 um 15:13 Uhr<br/>
<b>Von:</b> "Dr. Albrecht Giese" <genmail@a-giese.de><br/>
<b>An:</b> af.kracklauer@web.de, "phys >> Dr. Albrecht Giese" <phys@a-giese.de><br/>
<b>Cc:</b> general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org<br/>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [General] nature of light particles & theories</div>
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<div>Hi Al,</div>
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<div>Hi Albrecht: </div>
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<div>AK: From your comments I can't be sure if we disagree (as it seems your are saying) or not. Some responses below may get this issue.<br/>
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I do not see any conflict if the situation with synchronized clocks is obeyed as I explained it in my last mail (see below). Those clock assemblies show dilation, but do not present any logical conflict.</div>
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<div>AK: An interval for one party cannot BE (appearances are a different matter!) origianl length (per his clock) and forshortened (per partner's clock) at the same location and termination with one end at the same instant. Obvious! Even text books point out that the interval is the same in both frames (per +/- Relativity Principle) and show a hyperbolic isocline intersecting the travelr's world line. Thus, each for himself agrees on the length, and each for the other agrees on a dilated interval. Where else does this sort of thing happen? PERSPECTIVE. <span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif, Arial, 'Trebuchet MS'; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1.6em;">Your argument makes sense only if it is taken that the virtual image (or its equivalent in space-time; where it can't be static as in Classical Optics) is dilated/contracted. If that's what you mean, we agree. Otherwise, what the texts say is pure contradiction or science fiction mystery.</span></div>
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When looking at a real situation one has to identify the observed object on the one hand with a clock in the example, and on the other hand the observer with another clock or a sequence of other clocks. If we observe a moving particle (like a muon) in a laboratory, than the muon is represented by one clock in the moving system. In this case the observer is represented by a line of clocks positioned along the path of the muon. Because, if we think in an idealized way, we have first to note the time when the muon starts by looking at the clock which is close to the muon at start time. When the muon decays we have for the decay time to look to the clock which is close to the muon at that moment.</div>
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<div>AK: In experiments, NO lifetime measurement is made at all! The data consists entirely of counting the quanttity of muons at a given location. Neither experiment provides any empirical information whatsoever about the muon generation instant or location---in any frame. These latter features are surmized or calculated given assumed theory. Thus, an alternate explanation must only account for the presense of a muon quantity at the measureing location compatible with those ESTIMATED using SR or whatever. </div>
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This may look ridiculous as for the observer in the lab all clocks have the same indication. But from the "view" of the muon the clock at rest at the start looks advanced and the clock at the end looks retarded. So the muon has the impression that the time in the lab was slowed down.</div>
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<div>AK: If things only "look" to be dilated/contracted, then you are talking about the virtual image; in which case we have agreed from the start. BUT, with this explantion the muon data cannot be explained. To begin, the muons don't look or interact with any exterior observers. Even the exterior observers look only at the number of muons in a location where they do not expect many. This muon story does not involve two parties for whcih the appearance can be accounted for in terms of projective geometry in either 3-space (classical optics) or 4-space-time (SR hyperoptics, if you will).<br/>
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As a reminder: The equation for time transformation is: t' = gamma* (t - vx / c<sup>2</sup>) (i.e. the Lorentz transformation). Here is x the position of that clock which is close to the moving object at the time of observation. And that position is x = v*t if the observer it at rest. So, for this observer there is t' = t/gamma. For a co-moving observer there is v = 0, so the result is t' = t*gamma. Both results are covered by this equation, and there is no logical conflict.</div>
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<div>AK: Here again you may be confusing/mixing ontology with perception. Typically clock readings are at different locations, so they have to be broadcast along light cones to the other party---this usually takes TIME! (This fact alsos leads to confusion, as there are two times involved, that of the event at the event and that of the news arival not at the event.) But a muon does not wait for a signal from anybody, it uses its clock, basta. It's interval is dilated only as seen from the (passive) observer's frame; about which the muon knows (i.e. waits for light rays from or sends to) nothing nor needs anything. Likewise, the observer on Earth doesn't know (measure) where or when the muon originated. </div>
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<div>AK: Anyway, we know cosmic rays reach the surface of the Earth. So how many muons have those that almost get that far generated? SR texts don't address this. </div>
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<div>AK: We haven't even got to Eherenfest yet!!!</div>
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<div>AK: ciao, Al<br/>
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Best wishes<br/>
Albrecht<br/>
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<div>Hi Albrecht & Curious:</div>
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<div>Overlooked in my previous responce:</div>
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<div>If, as is done in virtually all text books on SR (I just checked Rindler, for example) time dilation is discussed in terms of the dialtion happening to a concrete objects (as it must if the Muon story is to make sense) then there is an obvious inconsitency and sever conflict with the relativity principle. Two entities cannot at once be both be dialted in the other's view and not their own. The real trick here is explaing how this is not obvious to authors of text books! Maybe, to paraphrase Weinburg: That stupid people say dumb things is natural, to get smart people to say dumb things, it takes physics!</div>
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<div>Your explantion (or my prefered version: perspctive) renders the objection both mute and sterile wrt muons, however. </div>
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<div style="margin: 0 0 10.0px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Sonntag, 11. Oktober 2015 um 22:55 Uhr<br/>
<b>Von:</b> "Dr. Albrecht Giese" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="genmail@a-giese.de" target="_parent"><genmail@a-giese.de></a><br/>
<b>An:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_parent">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>, "A. F. Kracklauer" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="af.kracklauer@web.de" target="_parent"><af.kracklauer@web.de></a><br/>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [General] nature of light particles & theories</div>
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<div style="background-color: rgb(255,255,255);">Hi Al,<br/>
<br/>
about time dilation.<br/>
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The problem is that time dilation looks inconsistent at the first glance. But it is not. I shall try to explain. It has to do with clock synchronization. (I try to do it without graphics, which would be easier, but a problem in an email.)<br/>
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Assume that there are two inertial systems, I call them A and B. Both move in relation to each other at some speed v. Now assume that there are clocks distributed equally over both systems. And of course in both systems the clocks are synchronized. Now there comes a relativistic effect. If the observer in A looks to the clocks in B, he finds them desynchronized. The clocks which are in front with respect to the direction of motion are retarded, the ones in the rear advanced. Similar in the other system. If an observer in B looks to the clocks in A, he finds them also desynchronized in the way that the clocks in the front are retarded and the clocks in the rear advanced. Shall I explain why this happens? If you want, I can do it. But next time to keep it short here.<br/>
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Now, what is dilation in this case?<br/>
<br/>
If the observer in A takes one of the clocks in B and compares it to those clocks in his own system, which is just opposite in sequence, then the clock in B looks slowed down. But if he takes one clock in his own system, A, and compares it to the clocks in B which are opposite in sequence, the clocks in B look accelerated.<br/>
<br/>
Now it looks in a similar way for the observer in B. If the observer in B does the equivalent to the observer in A just described, he will make just the same experience. No contradiction!<br/>
<br/>
In the case of the muons: The muon which will decay is in the position of a clock in the muon-system, and this clock is slowed down as seen from the observer at rest as described above, and this is no violation of symmetry between the systems. If an observer, who moves with the muon, looks to the clocks of the system at rest, he will find those clocks accelerated. No contradiction. Correct?<br/>
<br/>
Albrecht <br/>
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