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Yes, of course, one can calculate the energy and momentum exchange
when a Photon is absorbed, reflected <br>
but when we equate EM energy with mass <br>
we have mass as a source and sink of gravity, mass in kinetic energy
and momentum <br>
<br>
How do we know these are all the same, that is what we are
discussing?<br>
<br>
I tend to favor thinking of EM as one domain of force, energy, etc
where charge is the source and sink<br>
while Gravity and inertia as a second dominant force category where
mass is the source and sink parameter<br>
<br>
An electromagntic disturbance can effect material absorption,
emission, reflection but<br>
Whether on its own an EM disturbance has gravitational properties?
Albrecht says light bending is a refraction process.<br>
<br>
Does an excited atom , not ionized, actually weigh more than one in
a ground state?<br>
Certainly a Uranium atom weighs more than its fission products. <br>
<br>
best<br>
wolf<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Dr. Wolfgang Baer
Research Director
Nascent Systems Inc.
tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
E-mail <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com">wolf@NascentInc.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/9/2015 5:00 PM, John Williamson
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:7DC02B7BFEAA614DA666120C8A0260C9024CB082@CMS08-01.campus.gla.ac.uk"
type="cite">
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<div style="direction: ltr;font-family: Tahoma;color:
#000000;font-size: 10pt;">Dear Wolf,<br>
<br>
Although light in a bottle has not been done (there is an
interesting argument about whether light entering a bottle would
suck it towards or push it away from source as it travels
through the glass), many experiments have measured light
pressure per-se. There are now even (photon tweezer) engineered
systems one can buy in the shops using this principle.<br>
<br>
If you want to chase this look at light-sails for spaceships
literature and understand three things: firstly why silver sails
are faster (two times!) than black ones, secondly why the sail
force reduces both inverse-square and by the (Doppler) redshift
as one recedes from the source and thirdly - special relativity.
After that it is a simple matter to do the sums!<br>
<br>
Regards, John.<br>
<div style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #000000;
font-size: 16px">
<hr tabindex="-1">
<div style="direction: ltr;" id="divRpF531051"><font
color="#000000" size="2" face="Tahoma"><b>From:</b>
General
[<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]
on behalf of Mark, Martin van der
[<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:martin.van.der.mark@philips.com">martin.van.der.mark@philips.com</a>]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, October 09, 2015 12:08 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General
Discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] relativistic mass<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div>
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D">Dear Wolf,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D">No</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D">Yes</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D">Best, Martin</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy" lang="DE">Dr. Martin B. van der Mark</span><span
style="color:navy" lang="DE"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy">Principal Scientist, Minimally Invasive
Healthcare</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:navy"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:navy"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy">Philips Research Europe - Eindhoven</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:navy"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy">High Tech Campus, Building 34 (WB2.025)</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:navy"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy">Prof. Holstlaan 4</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:navy"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy">5656 AE Eindhoven, The Netherlands</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:navy"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy">Tel: +31 40 2747548</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D"></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;
padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:windowtext"> General
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]<b>On
Behalf Of </b>Wolfgang Baer<br>
<b>Sent:</b> vrijdag 9 oktober 2015 6:24<br>
<b>To:</b>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] relativistic mass</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Has anyone ever measured the
gravitational weight of light in a bottle?<br>
Does a hot hollow ball weigh more than a cold one?<br>
<br>
WOlf<br>
<br>
</p>
<pre>Dr. Wolfgang Baer</pre>
<pre>Research Director</pre>
<pre>Nascent Systems Inc.</pre>
<pre>tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432</pre>
<pre>E-mail <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com" target="_blank">wolf@NascentInc.com</a></pre>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 10/8/2015 3:51 PM, Adam K wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt; margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Martin, </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Yes, general relativity. That
link references the book I keep quoting in this
discussion list, which is all about general
relativity. Schrodinger introduces the basic idea
and its consequences very lucidly. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The origin of mass was always
the sticking point of this theory, and was where
Einstein focused his efforts for many decades. He
called the representation of mass in the theory an
<i>asylum ignorantiae</i>. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Adam</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 3:05
PM, Mark, Martin van der <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:martin.van.der.mark@philips.com"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:martin.van.der.mark@philips.com">martin.van.der.mark@philips.com</a></a>>
wrote:</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dear Adam K,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thank you for the quote,
and isn't it a puzzling one? "The deflection
is due to gravitation AND mass!!" Well that
is one mass too many, in my opinion, but i
think this should be interpreted as if not
just Newtonion gravitation is working but,
instead, general relativity (which includes
corrections to the former).</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">John D, i have not
recently responded to your comments, but
thank you very much indeed for the useful
explanations combined with your great sense
of humor! The helicopter one with not
finding the hard bits actually made it
physically impossible for me to hit the
small keys on my phone for a while.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Cheers!</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Very best regards, Martin<br>
<br>
Verstuurd vanaf mijn iPhone</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
Op 8 okt. 2015 om 23:23 heeft "<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:davidmathes8@yahoo.com"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:davidmathes8@yahoo.com">davidmathes8@yahoo.com</a></a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:davidmathes8@yahoo.com"
target="_blank">davidmathes8@yahoo.com</a>>
het volgende geschreven:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;
margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"">Adam</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"">For
the light rays near the sun,
wouldn't one need not just E &
M fields. To identify the
gravitational component,one would
have to rigorous eliminate effects
from the weak and strong forces as
well. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"">Also,
there may be some value in
considering Dirac's symmetric
version of the Maxwell equations. In
doing so, magnetism should be
considered as a separate force, a
fifth force if you will.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"">David</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;
border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;
padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt; margin-top:3.75pt;
margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:center;
background:white" align="center">
<span
style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"">
<hr align="center" size="1"
width="100%">
</span></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">
Adam K <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:afokay@gmail.com"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:afokay@gmail.com">afokay@gmail.com</a></a>><br>
<b>To:</b> Nature of Light and
Particles - General Discussion
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target="_blank">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, October
8, 2015 12:41 PM<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General]
relativistic mass</span><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif""></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"">With
the danger of
producing the
impression that I
have only read one
book, Martin I
thought you would
enjoy this quote:
</span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><i><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"">The
deflection of
light rays that
pass near the
sun is not a
purely
gravitational
phenomenon, it
is due to the
fact that an
electromagnetic
field possesses
energy and
momentum, hence
also mass.</span></i><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif""></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"">From
page 1, here: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://strangebeautiful.com/other-texts/schrodinger-st-struc.pdf"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://strangebeautiful.com/other-texts/schrodinger-st-struc.pdf">http://strangebeautiful.com/other-texts/schrodinger-st-struc.pdf</a></a>
</span></p>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"">Adam</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"">On Thu,
Oct 8, 2015 at
12:33 PM, Mark,
Martin van der
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:martin.van.der.mark@philips.com" target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:martin.van.der.mark@philips.com">martin.van.der.mark@philips.com</a></a>>
wrote:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"">Dear
Andrew,<br>
The paper "light
is heavy" is no
more, and no less,
than a supposedly
didactic and the
only consistent
explanation of
special relativity
and its
consequences. Most
important points
are that there are
some confusions:<br>
1) mass is not
matter<br>
2) energy is
equivalent,
exactly the same
as, mass: E=mc^2<br>
3) light is
massive, both in
the inertial and
gravitational
sense, as is
obvious from
experiment<br>
4) the greatest
confusion is about
light being
massless, which
indeed it would be
if it
couldn't/didn't
move. The whole
point is that
light is always
moving at the
speed of light, so
it is a
non-existing
limit.<br>
<br>
Weighing a box
with a molecular
gas, or that of a
"photon" gas give
the same kind of
result: the
gravitational mass
of the gas plus
the weight of the
box. Light is
gravitationally
deflected by large
masses,
experimentally.
Light carries
momentum and
energy.<br>
<br>
There is nothing
new in what i say,
it is consistent
with Einsteinian
relativity an
represents the
vision of Herman
weyl too, and many
others<br>
<br>
Best, Martin<br>
<br>
Verstuurd vanaf
mijn iPhone</span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif""><br>
> Op 8 okt.
2015 om 19:52
heeft Andrew
Meulenberg
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:mules333@gmail.com" target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mules333@gmail.com">mules333@gmail.com</a></a>>
het volgende
geschreven:<br>
><br>
> Dear
Martin,<br>
><br>
> In your
"Light is
Heavy" you
state:<br>
><br>
> "In the
case of light,
the rest mass
is zero, but
the
gravitational
mass equals
the inertial
mass, which is
identical to
the
relativistic
mass."<br>
><br>
> Do you
have any
reference for
my contention
that the
relativistic
mass of
particles is
bound
EM-radiation?<br>
><br>
> In the
case of
electron/positron
annihilation,
restmass is
converted to
relativistic
mass &
then to
radiation.
However, I do
not know of
any text or
paper that
identifies
relativistic
mass as bound
EM-radiation.
Your statement
is close to
that.<br>
><br>
> Andrew</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"">>
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