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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=white lang=EN-GB link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Wolf:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>I recommend that you think of gravity as a “trace force” left over because opposite electromagnetic fields don’t quite cancel one another. Start with the current-in-the wire. It is surrounded by a magnetic field because the electromagnetic fields don’t quite cancel one another. Because the electrons are moving. Then when you stop the electrons moving, they <i>still</i> don’t quite cancel one another. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>I also recommend that you take a look at the <a href="https://www.google.co.uk/#q=falaco+soliton">Falaco soliton</a>. It’s a vortex, but not like your plughole vortex. There is no sink, just a rotation. IMHO gravitomagnetism is important too. See <a href="http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2011/04may_epic/">this</a> and remember frame-dragging. Think of the electromagnetic field as a “twist” field. If you moved through it or it moved relative to you, you might think of it as a “turn” field. In magnetism we speak of curl or rot, which is short for rotor. That fits. So does the word <i>spinor</i>. Look at <a href="https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/On_Physical_Lines_of_Force">Maxwell’s page title</a>. Electrons and positron don’t move linearly and rotationally because of some kind of magic: <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><img border=0 width=200 height=196 id="Picture_x0020_2" src="cid:image003.png@01D10604.AE917860"></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>But co-rotating vortices do repel, whilst counter-rotating vortices attract: <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><img border=0 width=209 height=131 id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image004.jpg@01D10604.AE917860"></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>John<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext'> General [mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Wolfgang Baer<br><b>Sent:</b> 13 October 2015 20:34<br><b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion <general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] relativistic mass<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Yes, of course, one can calculate the energy and momentum exchange when a Photon is absorbed, reflected <br>but when we equate EM energy with mass <br>we have mass as a source and sink of gravity, mass in kinetic energy and momentum <br><br>How do we know these are all the same, that is what we are discussing?<br><br>I tend to favor thinking of EM as one domain of force, energy, etc where charge is the source and sink<br>while Gravity and inertia as a second dominant force category where mass is the source and sink parameter<br><br>An electromagntic disturbance can effect material absorption, emission, reflection but<br>Whether on its own an EM disturbance has gravitational properties? Albrecht says light bending is a refraction process.<br><br>Does an excited atom , not ionized, actually weigh more than one in a ground state?<br>Certainly a Uranium atom weighs more than its fission products. <br><br>best<br>wolf<br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><pre>Dr. Wolfgang Baer<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Research Director<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Nascent Systems Inc.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>E-mail <a href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com">wolf@NascentInc.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre><div><p class=MsoNormal>On 10/9/2015 5:00 PM, John Williamson wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>Dear Wolf,<br><br>Although light in a bottle has not been done (there is an interesting argument about whether light entering a bottle would suck it towards or push it away from source as it travels through the glass), many experiments have measured light pressure per-se. There are now even (photon tweezer) engineered systems one can buy in the shops using this principle.<br><br>If you want to chase this look at light-sails for spaceships literature and understand three things: firstly why silver sails are faster (two times!) than black ones, secondly why the sail force reduces both inverse-square and by the (Doppler) redshift as one recedes from the source and thirdly - special relativity. After that it is a simple matter to do the sums!<br><br>Regards, John.<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><hr size=2 width="100%" align=center></div><div id=divRpF531051><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'> General [<a href="mailto:general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>] on behalf of Mark, Martin van der [<a href="mailto:martin.van.der.mark@philips.com">martin.van.der.mark@philips.com</a>]<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, October 09, 2015 12:08 PM<br><b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] relativistic mass</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Dear Wolf,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>No</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Yes</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Best, Martin</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=DE style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>Dr. Martin B. van der Mark</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>Principal Scientist, Minimally Invasive Healthcare</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>Philips Research Europe - Eindhoven</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>High Tech Campus, Building 34 (WB2.025)</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>Prof. Holstlaan 4</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>5656 AE Eindhoven, The Netherlands</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>Tel: +31 40 2747548</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:windowtext'> General [<a href="mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]<b>On Behalf Of </b>Wolfgang Baer<br><b>Sent:</b> vrijdag 9 oktober 2015 6:24<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] relativistic mass</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Has anyone ever measured the gravitational weight of light in a bottle?<br>Does a hot hollow ball weigh more than a cold one?<br><br>WOlf<o:p></o:p></p><pre>Dr. Wolfgang Baer<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Research Director<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Nascent Systems Inc.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>E-mail <a href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com" target="_blank">wolf@NascentInc.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre><div><p class=MsoNormal>On 10/8/2015 3:51 PM, Adam K wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal>Hi Martin, <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Yes, general relativity. That link references the book I keep quoting in this discussion list, which is all about general relativity. Schrodinger introduces the basic idea and its consequences very lucidly. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>The origin of mass was always the sticking point of this theory, and was where Einstein focused his efforts for many decades. He called the representation of mass in the theory an <i>asylum ignorantiae</i>. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Adam<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 3:05 PM, Mark, Martin van der <<a href="mailto:martin.van.der.mark@philips.com">martin.van.der.mark@philips.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Dear Adam K,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Thank you for the quote, and isn't it a puzzling one? "The deflection is due to gravitation AND mass!!" Well that is one mass too many, in my opinion, but i think this should be interpreted as if not just Newtonion gravitation is working but, instead, general relativity (which includes corrections to the former).<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>John D, i have not recently responded to your comments, but thank you very much indeed for the useful explanations combined with your great sense of humor! The helicopter one with not finding the hard bits actually made it physically impossible for me to hit the small keys on my phone for a while.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Cheers!<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Very best regards, Martin<br><br>Verstuurd vanaf mijn iPhone<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>Op 8 okt. 2015 om 23:23 heeft "<a href="mailto:davidmathes8@yahoo.com">davidmathes8@yahoo.com</a>" <<a href="mailto:davidmathes8@yahoo.com" target="_blank">davidmathes8@yahoo.com</a>> het volgende geschreven:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>Adam</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>For the light rays near the sun, wouldn't one need not just E & M fields. To identify the gravitational component,one would have to rigorous eliminate effects from the weak and strong forces as well. </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>Also, there may be some value in considering Dirac's symmetric version of the Maxwell equations. In doing so, magnetism should be considered as a separate force, a fifth force if you will.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>David</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:3.75pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center;background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'><hr size=1 width="100%" align=center></span></div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> Adam K <<a href="mailto:afokay@gmail.com">afokay@gmail.com</a>><br><b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion <<a href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>> <br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, October 8, 2015 12:41 PM<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] relativistic mass</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>With the danger of producing the impression that I have only read one book, Martin I thought you would enjoy this quote: </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><i><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>The deflection of light rays that pass near the sun is not a purely gravitational phenomenon, it is due to the fact that an electromagnetic field possesses energy and momentum, hence also mass.</span></i><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>From page 1, here: <a href="http://strangebeautiful.com/other-texts/schrodinger-st-struc.pdf">http://strangebeautiful.com/other-texts/schrodinger-st-struc.pdf</a> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>Adam</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 12:33 PM, Mark, Martin van der <<a href="mailto:martin.van.der.mark@philips.com">martin.van.der.mark@philips.com</a>> wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>Dear Andrew,<br>The paper "light is heavy" is no more, and no less, than a supposedly didactic and the only consistent explanation of special relativity and its consequences. Most important points are that there are some confusions:<br>1) mass is not matter<br>2) energy is equivalent, exactly the same as, mass: E=mc^2<br>3) light is massive, both in the inertial and gravitational sense, as is obvious from experiment<br>4) the greatest confusion is about light being massless, which indeed it would be if it couldn't/didn't move. The whole point is that light is always moving at the speed of light, so it is a non-existing limit.<br><br>Weighing a box with a molecular gas, or that of a "photon" gas give the same kind of result: the gravitational mass of the gas plus the weight of the box. Light is gravitationally deflected by large masses, experimentally. Light carries momentum and energy.<br><br>There is nothing new in what i say, it is consistent with Einsteinian relativity an represents the vision of Herman weyl too, and many others<br><br>Best, Martin<br><br>Verstuurd vanaf mijn iPhone</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'><br>> Op 8 okt. 2015 om 19:52 heeft Andrew Meulenberg <<a href="mailto:mules333@gmail.com">mules333@gmail.com</a>> het volgende geschreven:<br>><br>> Dear Martin,<br>><br>> In your "Light is Heavy" you state:<br>><br>> "In the case of light, the rest mass is zero, but the gravitational mass equals the inertial mass, which is identical to the relativistic mass."<br>><br>> Do you have any reference for my contention that the relativistic mass of particles is bound EM-radiation?<br>><br>> In the case of electron/positron annihilation, restmass is converted to relativistic mass & then to radiation. However, I do not know of any text or paper that identifies relativistic mass as bound EM-radiation. 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