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Hello Richard, and hello all,<br>
<br>
thank you for this overview about the different interpretations of
QM and particle structure.<br>
<br>
It seems that the de Broglie idea of a pilot wave is not very
plausible for you. Why not?<br>
<br>
1. If the pilot wave is built by the oscillating internal charges of
a particle, it is plausible that this wave interacts on the one hand
with the other particles met on its way, on the other hand that this
field (which may be changed by this environment) interacts with the
originating particle and do guides the particle. Sounds very simple
and logical to me. <br>
<br>
2. You present the different deductions of the de Broglie
wavelength. But none of these deductions help to solve the logical
conflicts which occur with this wavelength.<br>
<br>
I also want to remind that none of the models presented have an
explanation for the (inertial) mass of a particle. In contrast to my
model of two constituents which explains the mass based on two
assumptions. 1st: the particle has an extension; 2nd: the speed of
light is finite. And the results of this approach are numerically
very precise for leptons and theoretically also for quarks. <br>
<br>
Best regards<br>
Albrecht<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 28.10.2015 um 21:47 schrieb Richard
Gauthier:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:68936104-BA17-431A-91A4-CDB9BF56CD85@gmail.com"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<div class="">Hello Al and Albrecht and all,</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> Al’s paper No. 11 is a nice summary of several
wave-related options for interpreting quantum mechanics: </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">1) the Copenhagen complementarity/duality
interpretation having abstract quantum wave functions that
through Psi*Psi predict statistically the location, momentum and
other observable attributes of a particle or particles, and
having the de Broglie relationship for an electron built into
these quantum wave functions to help predict statistically the
particle's diffraction/scattering/interference/double-slit
properties, </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">2a) de Broglie’s original pilot wave approach that
has a physical guiding pilot wave closely associated with and
guiding a particle, and where the electron’s de Broglie
matter-waves/phase-waves emanate from the kernel oscillator of
the electron, </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">2b) the later de Broglie/Bohm interpretation of QM
which has a localized particle closely associated with a
non-local quantum potential that guides the particle’s motion
using distant information (such as the location of 2 slits)
found in the surroundings, and which predicts the same
statistical particle properties as the Copenhagen description
and </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">3) the Stochastic Electrodynamics (SED) approach
where background electromagnetic waves interact with a dipole
(or multipolar) particle to produce a standing wave that, when
in relative motion, generates the de Broglie wavelength by
dipole-multipole/background-wave interactions. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">As Al describes, approaches (1) and (2 a & b)
are problematical -- in (1) because of the well-known
measurement problem (how to describe the collapse of the quantum
wave function for a particle if and when this collapse occurs),
in (2a) because it is not clear and sometimes contradictory
quantitatively how the pilot wave can guide the particle, and in
(2b) because the Bohm quantum potential guiding the particle
(since it is derived from the Schrodinger equation) has as its
main motivation the generation of the QM statistical predictions
of the Schrodinger equation without the measurement problem
associated with wave-function collapse in (1).</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The approach describing the electron as helically
circulating spin-1/2 charged photon generating the de Broglie
wavelength is quite distinct from these above approaches as to
how the de Broglie wavelength and matter waves are generated. In
the charged photon approach, the charged photon’s speed,
frequency, energy, wavelength and momentum relations are all
associated with de Broglie's proposed relationship E=hf = gamma
mc^2 for a moving electron and with E = hf, p = h/lambda
and c = f lambda for a photon. Unlike de Broglie’s approach
where pilot phase waves having the relativistic de Broglie
wavelength h/(gamma mv) are generated directly from the
oscillating electron’s mass kernel, the helically-circulating
charged photon is proposed to first generate quantum plane waves
with wavelength h/(gamma mc) as the charged photon helically
circulates. These quantum plane waves intersect the helical axis
(the path of the modeled moving electron) to generate the
electron’s relativistic de Broglie matter waves, which in the
non-relativistic Schrodinger equation picture correspond to the
wave equation of a free electron. In the Bohm approach the
particle associates with and is informed by the quantum
potential to generate the electron’s diffraction properties
involving the de Broglie wavelength, while in the Copenhagen
interpretation, the particle description is complimentary to the
quantum wave-function description, and the source of the de
Broglie wavelength is unspecified except mathematically in the
formal QM equations. In the SED approach, it is the interaction
with background electromagnetic waves with the particle
oscillator that generates the de Broglie wavelength.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">So the charged-photon approach to modeling the
electron suggests a different interpretation for the generation
of the de Broglie wavelength, which is fundamental to describing
the wave-particle nature of particles with rest mass, and forms
a basis of quantum mechanics. Describing an electron as a
circulating charged photon, suggests that the if the electron is
a new variety of photon with many of a photon’s properties but
some differences also, the problem of why the electron has
wavelike properties may be nearing a solution, but the problem
of understanding (rather than just postulating) why the photon
has wave-particle properties still remains. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">with best regards,</div>
<div class=""> Richard</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> </div>
<br class="">
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Oct 28, 2015, at 7:48 AM, <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de"
class=""><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a></a> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;"
class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">Hi Albrecht:</div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class="">See below:</div>
<div class="">
<div name="quote" style="margin:10px 5px 5px 10px;
padding: 10px 0 10px 10px; border-left:2px solid
#C3D9E5; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode:
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"
class="">
<div style="margin:0 0 10px 0;" class=""><b
class="">Gesendet:</b> Mittwoch, 28. Oktober
2015 um 14:56 Uhr<br class="">
<b class="">Von:</b> "Dr. Albrecht Giese" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de" class=""><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de">genmail@a-giese.de</a></a>><br
class="">
<b class="">An:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de" class="">af.kracklauer@web.de</a>,
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
class="">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a><br
class="">
<b class="">Cc:</b> "Richard Gauthier" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" class=""><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com">richgauthier@gmail.com</a></a>>,
"Joakim Pettersson" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:joakimbits@gmail.com" class=""><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:joakimbits@gmail.com">joakimbits@gmail.com</a></a>>,
"Ariane Mandray" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ariane.mandray@wanadoo.fr"
class="">ariane.mandray@wanadoo.fr</a>><br
class="">
<b class="">Betreff:</b> Re: [General] research
papers</div>
<div name="quoted-content" class="">
<div style="background-color: rgb(255,255,255);"
class="">
<div class="">Hi Al,<br class="">
<br class="">
thank you for the reference to your paper.
I think that it is an interesting
contribution. However I need some more
details in order to fully and correctly
understand it.<br class="">
<br class="">
1.) Is it correct that your deduction of the
de Broglie wavelength is based on the
understanding that there exists a background
of EM-waves? And that it needs this
understanding?</div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class="">Al: Yes, but I do not see that
as an ontological fact as much as a
convenient summary of the totality of
interactions with the remaining charges in
the universe. (Maybe you've picked up by
now that at a fundamental level I do not
accept the concepts of "photon" or
"E&M" as valid final discriptions or
models for the totality of all possible
gaussian (1/r^2) WITH DELAY between ALL
extant charges. Photons and E&M waves
are approximations, albeit very useful
ones.) If one choses to live with this
assumtion, i.e., the existence of this
background, which is, BTW, identical with
that deduced from QM. as it stands, then the
energy density at each point in space
divergerges, just like "2nd QM "quantum
vacuum"! To get around this objection I
have some ideas, still a bit raw and
unwritten up.</div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
2.) The sequence of your equations (1) to
(4) is too compact for me to make it
understandable, missing e.g. a definition of
k<sub class="">0</sub>. Any chance to have
it more detailed?</div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class="">Al: Don't over interpret it,
just redo it yourself with whatever notation
you like. The description is meant to be
definitive. The math is atmospherics for
the paper. But, k_0 = omega_0/c where the
omega is for the resonant wave in the
particles rest frame. It turns out, as
argued lower in the paper, this does not
really matter which omega, or how many
(e.g., multipole interaction, etc.), even an
infinite number (point charge), they all get
modualted by the deBroglie wave. Again,
this is the final, average effect, not an
ontologically precise deal. QM, after all,
is about averages, relabeled "expectations."
Thinking otherwise leadds to endless
logic-traps.</div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class="">Al: Hope this helps, best Al<br
class="">
<br class="">
Thanks and best regards<br class="">
Albrecht<br class="">
<br class="">
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 27.10.2015 um
16:11 schrieb <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="x-msg://14/af.kracklauer@web.de"
target="_parent">af.kracklauer@web.de</a>:</div>
<blockquote class="">
<div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size:
12.0px;" class="">
<div class="">Hi All:</div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class="">In paper No. 11 on <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="http://www.nonloco-physics.0catch.com/"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.nonloco-physics.0catch.com">www.nonloco-physics.0catch.com</a></a>
I published some ideas on the origin
and nanture of deBroglie waves. Seems
to me some of the objections and
obscurities mentioned below are delt
with therein. Take a look, see what you
think. </div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class="">ciao, Al</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 10.0px 5.0px 5.0px
10.0px;padding: 10.0px 0 10.0px
10.0px;border-left: 2.0px solid
rgb(195,217,229);" class="">
<div style="margin: 0 0 10.0px 0;"
class=""><b class="">Gesendet:</b> Dienstag,
27. Oktober 2015 um 15:39 Uhr<br
class="">
<b class="">Von:</b> "Dr. Albrecht
Giese" <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="x-msg://14/genmail@a-giese.de"
target="_parent"><genmail@a-giese.de></a><br
class="">
<b class="">An:</b> "Richard
Gauthier" <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="x-msg://14/richgauthier@gmail.com"
target="_parent"><richgauthier@gmail.com></a><br
class="">
<b class="">Cc:</b> "Nature of Light
and Particles - General Discussion"
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="x-msg://14/general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target="_parent"><general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org></a>,
"Joakim Pettersson" <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="x-msg://14/joakimbits@gmail.com"
target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:joakimbits@gmail.com"><joakimbits@gmail.com></a></a>,
"Ariane Mandray" <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="x-msg://14/ariane.mandray@wanadoo.fr"
target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ariane.mandray@wanadoo.fr"><ariane.mandray@wanadoo.fr></a></a><br
class="">
<b class="">Betreff:</b> Re:
[General] research papers</div>
<div class="">
<div style="background-color:
rgb(255,255,255);" class="">Hello
Richard (and all),<br class="">
<br class="">
thank you, Richard, for your
informations. You find my answers
and comments in your text.<br
class="">
<br class="">
However I see here two general
problems which should be reviewed
by all.<br class="">
<br class="">
1.) The fact that the de Broglie
wave regarding its definition and
its use is <i class="">not </i>Lorentz-invariant.
So it is incompatible with our
physical understanding since 1905.<br
class="">
<br class="">
2.) If the photon is seen as the
ingredient of the electron, we
need a much clearer definition and
understanding what the photon is
and what its effects are in detail
(like the wave front emitted).
Otherwise there are too many
insufficiently defined situations
as visible in the discussion
further down. - And clearly we do
not get any help from quantum
mechanics for this, after
Heisenberg has stated that it is
completely useless to look into an
elementary particle, and the
physical community has accepted
this since that time.<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
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