<html><head></head><body><div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;"><div>Hi all:</div>
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<div>Expressed in the right (fortuotus) units, it is clear that taking c-->inf, annihilates the B/H field and yields electrostatics. Thus, B/H are just a means of taking the finite speed of light into account. Propagation requires each inducing the other. Further, each can be transformed to zero with well chosen frames, again implying that neither is a separate, ontological entity. Both are, therefore, hypothetical, aids for calculaitons, not real-world "stuff." </div>
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<div>These are not my arguments, I just can't refute them. Don't blame me.</div>
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<div>Best, Al</div>
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<div style="margin:0 0 10px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Sonntag, 01. November 2015 um 22:10 Uhr<br/>
<b>Von:</b> "Chip Akins" <chipakins@gmail.com><br/>
<b>An:</b> davidmathes8@yahoo.com, "'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'" <general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org><br/>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [General] Relativistic space, time and field</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">Hi David</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">I think I would agree with John D. that for the purposes of discussing the fields generated by waves in space there is just an electromagnetic field. The electromagnetic fields, E and B portions, generated by the wave motion (distortion traveling through space) are the results of the same thing (that particular type of propagating distortion which is supported by space). In this sense they are not separable because they are different manifestations of the same cause.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">Chip</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;"> General [mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>davidmathes8@yahoo.com<br/>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, November 01, 2015 9:41 AM<br/>
<b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion <general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org><br/>
<b>Cc:</b> 'Nick Bailey' <nick@bailey-family.org.uk>; 'Anthony Booth' <abooth@ieee.org>; 'Ariane Mandray' <ariane.mandray@wanadoo.fr><br/>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Relativistic space, time and field</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white;"><span style="font-family: Helvetica , sans-serif;color: black;">John D</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white;"><span style="font-family: Helvetica , sans-serif;color: black;">The E&M fields can be considered two separate fields that are basically closely coupled by Maxwell's equations. </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white;"><span style="font-family: Helvetica , sans-serif;color: black;"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white;"><span style="font-family: Helvetica , sans-serif;color: black;">Put another way...just because you have one EM field (E for example) does not necessarily mean you have the other (B for example).</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white;"><span style="font-family: Helvetica , sans-serif;color: black;">Speculation is that there are two different B fields. However, this has not been peer reviewed.</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white;"><span style="font-family: Helvetica , sans-serif;color: black;">David</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white;"><b><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family: Arial , sans-serif;color: black;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family: Arial , sans-serif;color: black;"> John Duffield <<a href="johnduffield@btconnect.com" target="_parent">johnduffield@btconnect.com</a>><br/>
<b>To:</b> 'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion' <<a href="general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_parent">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>><br/>
<b>Cc:</b> 'Nick Bailey' <<a href="nick@bailey-family.org.uk" target="_parent">nick@bailey-family.org.uk</a>>; 'Anthony Booth' <<a href="abooth@ieee.org" target="_parent">abooth@ieee.org</a>>; 'Ariane Mandray' <<a href="ariane.mandray@wanadoo.fr" target="_parent">ariane.mandray@wanadoo.fr</a>><br/>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, November 1, 2015 2:43 AM<br/>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Relativistic space, time and field</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white;"><span style="font-family: Helvetica , sans-serif;color: black;"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white;"><span style="font-family: Helvetica , sans-serif;color: rgb(0,0,153);">All:</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white;"><span style="font-family: Helvetica , sans-serif;color: rgb(0,0,153);">I’ve come back after a week away, and caught up with my emails. There’s some excellent stuff there, thanks everybody. </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white;"><span style="font-family: Helvetica , sans-serif;color: rgb(0,0,153);">John W:</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white;"><span style="font-family: Helvetica , sans-serif;color: rgb(0,0,153);">Your question left me puzzled. There aren’t two different fields, one electric, one magnetic. The electron has an <i>electromagnetic</i> field, and it is what it is. Imagine you can look at it, and walk around it, studying it from every angle. It has this “screw” nature, like Maxwell said, and like Minkowski said, not totally unlike the <a href="http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2011/04may_epic/" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446392012136_9619" target="_blank">gravitomagnetic field</a>, but in three dimensions, and a whole lot fiercer. Now imagine you back up then move past it fast. That electromagnetic field doesn’t change one iota just because <i>you</i> changed your state of motion. It doesn’t transform at all. </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white;"><span style="font-family: Helvetica , sans-serif;color: rgb(0,0,153);">Regards</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white;"><span style="font-family: Helvetica , sans-serif;color: rgb(0,0,153);">John D</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white;"><b><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Helvetica , sans-serif;color: black;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Helvetica , sans-serif;color: black;"> General [<a href="general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_parent">mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>John Williamson<br/>
<b>Sent:</b> 26 October 2015 08:17<br/>
<b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion <<a href="general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_parent">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>><br/>
<b>Cc:</b> 'Joakim Pettersson' <<a href="joakimbits@gmail.com" target="_parent">joakimbits@gmail.com</a>>; Nick Bailey <<a href="nick@bailey-family.org.uk" target="_parent">nick@bailey-family.org.uk</a>>; 'Anthony Booth' <<a href="abooth@ieee.org" target="_parent">abooth@ieee.org</a>>; 'Ariane Mandray' <<a href="ariane.mandray@wanadoo.fr" target="_parent">ariane.mandray@wanadoo.fr</a>><br/>
<b>Subject:</b> [General] Relativistic space, time and field</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white;"><span style="font-family: Times , serif;color: black;">Dear ladies and gentlemen,</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white;"><span style="font-family: Times , serif;color: black;">I must apologise in advance if I appear a little cranky this morning. I have been up since 2 am (it is now 7.30 am) I have been in work every day last week, including Saturday and Sunday – certainly more than double my “contracted” hours – actually, getting close to three times them (four times is not possible- though my “workload model” suggest I am only a third loaded and my managers are trying to give me even more to do). I am pissed off, have not managed to eat properly and feel physically a bit ill.</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white;"><span style="font-family: Times , serif;color: black;">The intense work has had the advantage that I have caught up with most, though not all, of my University work. I feel as though I have never left the damn place, and am already tired – though 12 hours looms ahead. The coming week promises – if anything to be even worse … I will try not to take it out on you .. but this will not be circumspect …</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white;"><span style="font-family: Times , serif;color: black;">I have the feeling that we are, collectively, not really getting into the discussion which needs to be had to make proper progress. This is not for lack of trying on my part – but I seem to be getting no reaction at all to the new bits – and yet lots of requests for clarification on parts of physics as it is already is. </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white;"><span style="font-family: Times , serif;color: black;">Ladies and gentlemen – I just cannot do this. I cannot provide a tutor service for things that are simply well explained in text books. Let me try a little experiment to clarify what I mean.</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white;"><span style="font-family: Times , serif;color: black;">For example, there has been a lot of discussion about Einstien’s Special relativity. There has been lots of talk about rulers and clocks, not with the maths so much as in sort of allegorical terms. Everyone seems to think they know what they are talking about – but I do not get the impression that many of us really “get it” at all. Sorry.</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white;"><span style="font-family: Times , serif;color: black;">This is not to be rude to you all. I agree with Al that most of the people writing TEXT books with the word “relativity” in the title do not “get” relativity much beyond rulers, clocks and synchronising imaginary “observers”. This is probably because that is how they “learned” it themselves. Wiki is at the same (low) level. If the writers of the usual sources are not beyond this – what hope does a graduate of those teachers in universities have of getting there? I should say - it is not my goal or role to sort all this out – though that is where my effort seems to have been going. See how Christian, for one, has been savaged by the pack for merely daring to suggest some theory and maths appalls me. </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white;"><span style="font-family: Times , serif;color: black;">The lack of (quite basisc) understanding of many workers in the field leads to many smart workers– some called Alice and/or Bob, to be completely wasting their time. As Al says, one can explain most of this simply with classical field theory and a proper understanding of relativity (which is automatically in classical field theory – so there you go).</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white;"><span style="font-family: Times , serif;color: black;">Let me give you a specific example, though, from relativity as explained in the slightly more advanced big books – and I would like you all to be honest with yourself and share it with the group if you were ignorant of the simple fact I am about to state before I brought it up. There is no shame in this: it is how relativity is taught in my “university” for example – so it is probably not your fault.</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white;"><span style="font-family: Times , serif;color: black;"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white;"><span style="font-family: Times , serif;color: black;">It is common knowledge (whether “true” in the sense that Al, Martin and I have been talking about it or not), that rulers “shrink” in the direction of the Lorentz transformation and clocks “go slow”. I have been astonished that there has even been discussion about this within this group – but there you go. I do not want to talk about this further here, there has been enough said, but instead take the whole discussion a little bit further</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white;"><span style="font-family: Times , serif;color: black;"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white;"><span style="font-family: Times , serif;color: black;">Now I already know several in the group will know what I am about to say to be true (Martin and Stephen). I suspect others may also have got it (John D, Adam K, Nick – but be honest guys). I am pretty sure that this will be news to most of you – though most delighted if I am wrong!</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white;"><span style="font-family: Times , serif;color: black;">Although lengths transform ONLY along the velocity directions, fields transform (relativistically) ONLY perpendicular to it. The question is simple: did you “know” that?</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white;"><span style="font-family: Times , serif;color: black;">To be clear in what I am saying: if the velocity is in the z direction. Lengths transform relativistically in z and not in x and y. Fields transform relativistically in Ex, Ey, Bx, and By AND PRECISELY NOT in Bz and Ez.</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white;"><span style="font-family: Times , serif;color: black;">Once again: did you know that before I told you? Do you agree?</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white;"><span style="font-family: Times , serif;color: black;">Regards, John W.</span></p>
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