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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Hi John D<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>So, based on your description of the EM field, if we look at the propagation of let’s say a “photon”, <b>with spin angular momentum</b>, front view, and limit the propagation of the space disturbance (the composite of the EM field) to the speed of light, then we get something like this. (Field Plus is blue, minus is red.)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><img width=345 height=333 id="Picture_x0020_6" src="cid:image003.jpg@01D11548.B520A860"><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>And then for the electron the view is something like this…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><img width=326 height=325 id="Picture_x0020_5" src="cid:image006.png@01D11540.BF130500" alt="cid:image006.png@01D11540.BF130500"><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='color:black'>Of course this entire structure is spinning at </span></b><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>2.4711799458074E+20 Hz </span><span style='color:black'>so the overall image would look spherical.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>For the electron, the transport radius is at the junction of the + and – (blue and red). But for the photon it is not so easy.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>The frequency we would sense for the photon is the question in this scenario, for at first glance it would seem to display different frequencies at different radii. However the “wavelength” would only be one distinct value as illustrated in the side view of such a propagating disturbance…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><img width=257 height=271 id="Picture_x0020_3" src="cid:image004.jpg@01D11548.B520A860"><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>So using your descriptions we could imagine intuitively that the photon would display EM characteristics like we observe in nature, and that the electron and positron would have a strong attraction.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>But this view means that the photon has a sort of weak quantization (not as strongly quantized as the electron) which would account for the spin angular momentum of the photon. It also means that there is a force which tends to confine the photon’s disturbance in space to a region about the longitudinal axis of the photon.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Interestingly if we calculate this force (using some fairly simple assumptions) it is exactly the force we need in the electron, to confine the energy in the electron to the transport radius.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>I am not quite sure yet that I am ready to accept all this, in exactly this manner, for it has some implications regarding the photon which are, perhaps emotionally, unappealing to me at this time.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Chip<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> General [mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>John Duffield<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 02, 2015 2:21 AM<br><b>To:</b> 'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion' <general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>; davidmathes8@yahoo.com<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Relativistic space, time and field<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#000099'>David:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#000099'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#000099'>I didn’t get your email, but I did get the reply from Chip. I must disagree strongly about E and B fields I’m afraid. The electron doesn’t have an electric field or a magnetic field, it has an electromagnetic field. Note this quote from Minkowski’s Space and Time:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#000099'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:#333333'>"In the description of the field caused by the electron itself, then it will appear that the division of the field into electric and magnetic forces is a relative one with respect to the time-axis assumed; the two forces considered together can most vividly be described by a certain analogy to the force-screw in mechanics; the analogy is, however, imperfect".</span></b><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#000099'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#000099'>To visualize the electromagnetic field combine radial “electric lines of force” with concentric “magnetic field lines” to yield something with a spinor nature:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#000099'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#000099'><img width=645 height=225 id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.jpg@01D1153F.D3521570" alt="cid:image001.jpg@01D1153F.D3521570"></span><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#000099'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#000099'>Electrons and positrons interact because each is a chiral dynamical spinor in frame-dragged space. If you set them down with no initial motion they move linearly towards one another, there’s a linear force, and we talk of an electric field. When you throw one past the other they go around one another too, there’s a rotational force, and we speak of a magnetic field. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#000099'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#000099'><img width=697 height=437 id="Picture_x0020_2" src="cid:image002.jpg@01D1153F.D3521570" alt="cid:image002.jpg@01D1153F.D3521570"></span><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#000099'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#000099'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#000099'>When we combine electrons and metal ions such that we only see the linear force we talk of an electric field. When we combine them such that we only see the rotational force we talk of a magnetic field. But each particle has an electromagnetic field, and a spinor nature. Because each is in essence an electromagnetic wave going round and round, such that it’s a standing wave, and what was an electromagnetic field variation is now a standing field. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#000099'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#000099'>This might sound contrary to what you’ve been taught, but ask yourself this: if Maxwell unified electromagnetism a hundred and fifty years ago, how come there’s no depictions of the electromagnetic field anywhere? <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#000099'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#000099'>Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#000099'>John D<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> General [</span><a href="mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Chip Akins<br><b>Sent:</b> 01 November 2015 21:10<br><b>To:</b> </span><a href="mailto:davidmathes8@yahoo.com"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>davidmathes8@yahoo.com</span></a><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>; 'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion' <</span><a href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Relativistic space, time and field<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Hi David<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>I think I would agree with John D. that for the purposes of discussing the fields generated by waves in space there is just an electromagnetic field. The electromagnetic fields, E and B portions, generated by the wave motion (distortion traveling through space) are the results of the same thing (that particular type of propagating distortion which is supported by space). In this sense they are not separable because they are different manifestations of the same cause.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Chip<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> General [</span><a href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>] <b>On Behalf Of </b></span><a href="mailto:davidmathes8@yahoo.com"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>davidmathes8@yahoo.com</span></a><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, November 01, 2015 9:41 AM<br><b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion <</span><a href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>><br><b>Cc:</b> 'Nick Bailey' <</span><a href="mailto:nick@bailey-family.org.uk"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>nick@bailey-family.org.uk</span></a><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>>; 'Anthony Booth' <</span><a href="mailto:abooth@ieee.org"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>abooth@ieee.org</span></a><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>>; 'Ariane Mandray' <</span><a href="mailto:ariane.mandray@wanadoo.fr"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>ariane.mandray@wanadoo.fr</span></a><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Relativistic space, time and field<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446392012136_9498"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>John D<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446392012136_9499"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446392012136_9500"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>The E&M fields can be considered two separate fields that are basically closely coupled by Maxwell's equations. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446392012136_9500"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446392012136_9500"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Put another way...just because you have one EM field (E for example) does not necessarily mean you have the other (B for example).<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446392012136_9501"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446392012136_9502"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Speculation is that there are two different B fields. However, this has not been peer reviewed.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446392012136_9503"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446392012136_9504"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>David<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:3.75pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446392012136_9508"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446392012136_9507"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446392012136_9506"><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center;background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><hr size=1 width="100%" align=center></span></div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'> John Duffield <</span><a href="mailto:johnduffield@btconnect.com"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>johnduffield@btconnect.com</span></a><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>><br><b>To:</b> 'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion' <</span><a href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>> <br><b>Cc:</b> 'Nick Bailey' <</span><a href="mailto:nick@bailey-family.org.uk"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>nick@bailey-family.org.uk</span></a><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>>; 'Anthony Booth' <</span><a href="mailto:abooth@ieee.org"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>abooth@ieee.org</span></a><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>>; 'Ariane Mandray' <</span><a href="mailto:ariane.mandray@wanadoo.fr"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>ariane.mandray@wanadoo.fr</span></a><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>> <br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, November 1, 2015 2:43 AM<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Relativistic space, time and field</span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446392012136_9542"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div id=yiv7197686792><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446392012136_9541"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446392012136_9540"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446392012136_9539"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#000099'>All:</span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446392012136_9543"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#000099'> </span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446392012136_9565"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#000099'>I’ve come back after a week away, and caught up with my emails. There’s some excellent stuff there, thanks everybody. </span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446392012136_9544"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#000099'> </span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446392012136_9545"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#000099'>John W:</span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446392012136_9546"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#000099'> </span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446392012136_9548"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#000099'>Your question left me puzzled. There aren’t two different fields, one electric, one magnetic. The electron has an <i>electromagnetic</i> field, and it is what it is. Imagine you can look at it, and walk around it, studying it from every angle. It has this “screw” nature, like Maxwell said, and like Minkowski said, not totally unlike the </span><a href="http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2011/04may_epic/" target="_blank" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446392012136_9619"><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>gravitomagnetic field</span></a><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#000099'>, but in three dimensions, and a whole lot fiercer. Now imagine you back up then move past it fast. That electromagnetic field doesn’t change one iota just because <i>you</i> changed your state of motion. It doesn’t transform at all. </span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446392012136_9549"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#000099'> </span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446392012136_9550"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#000099'>Regards</span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446392012136_9551"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#000099'>John D</span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446392012136_9552"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#000099'> </span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div id=yiv7197686792yqt63928><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446392012136_9554"><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in' id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446392012136_9553"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446392012136_9555"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> General [</span><a href="mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>John Williamson<br><b>Sent:</b> 26 October 2015 08:17<br><b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion <</span><a href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>><br><b>Cc:</b> 'Joakim Pettersson' <</span><a href="mailto:joakimbits@gmail.com"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>joakimbits@gmail.com</span></a><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>>; Nick Bailey <</span><a href="mailto:nick@bailey-family.org.uk"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>nick@bailey-family.org.uk</span></a><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>>; 'Anthony Booth' <</span><a href="mailto:abooth@ieee.org"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>abooth@ieee.org</span></a><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>>; 'Ariane Mandray' <</span><a href="mailto:ariane.mandray@wanadoo.fr"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>ariane.mandray@wanadoo.fr</span></a><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>><br><b>Subject:</b> [General] Relativistic space, time and field</span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Times",serif;color:black'>Dear ladies and gentlemen,</span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Times",serif;color:black'> </span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Times",serif;color:black'>I must apologise in advance if I appear a little cranky this morning. I have been up since 2 am (it is now 7.30 am) I have been in work every day last week, including Saturday and Sunday – certainly more than double my “contracted” hours – actually, getting close to three times them (four times is not possible- though my “workload model” suggest I am only a third loaded and my managers are trying to give me even more to do). I am pissed off, have not managed to eat properly and feel physically a bit ill.</span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Times",serif;color:black'> </span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Times",serif;color:black'>The intense work has had the advantage that I have caught up with most, though not all, of my University work. I feel as though I have never left the damn place, and am already tired – though 12 hours looms ahead. The coming week promises – if anything to be even worse … I will try not to take it out on you .. but this will not be circumspect …</span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Times",serif;color:black'> </span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Times",serif;color:black'>I have the feeling that we are, collectively, not really getting into the discussion which needs to be had to make proper progress. This is not for lack of trying on my part – but I seem to be getting no reaction at all to the new bits – and yet lots of requests for clarification on parts of physics as it is already is. </span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Times",serif;color:black'> </span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Times",serif;color:black'>Ladies and gentlemen – I just cannot do this. I cannot provide a tutor service for things that are simply well explained in text books. Let me try a little experiment to clarify what I mean.</span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Times",serif;color:black'> </span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Times",serif;color:black'>For example, there has been a lot of discussion about Einstien’s Special relativity. There has been lots of talk about rulers and clocks, not with the maths so much as in sort of allegorical terms. Everyone seems to think they know what they are talking about – but I do not get the impression that many of us really “get it” at all. Sorry.</span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Times",serif;color:black'> </span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Times",serif;color:black'>This is not to be rude to you all. I agree with Al that most of the people writing TEXT books with the word “relativity” in the title do not “get” relativity much beyond rulers, clocks and synchronising imaginary “observers”. This is probably because that is how they “learned” it themselves. Wiki is at the same (low) level. If the writers of the usual sources are not beyond this – what hope does a graduate of those teachers in universities have of getting there? I should say - it is not my goal or role to sort all this out – though that is where my effort seems to have been going. See how Christian, for one, has been savaged by the pack for merely daring to suggest some theory and maths appalls me. </span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Times",serif;color:black'> </span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Times",serif;color:black'>The lack of (quite basisc) understanding of many workers in the field leads to many smart workers– some called Alice and/or Bob, to be completely wasting their time. As Al says, one can explain most of this simply with classical field theory and a proper understanding of relativity (which is automatically in classical field theory – so there you go).</span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Times",serif;color:black'> </span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Times",serif;color:black'>Let me give you a specific example, though, from relativity as explained in the slightly more advanced big books – and I would like you all to be honest with yourself and share it with the group if you were ignorant of the simple fact I am about to state before I brought it up. There is no shame in this: it is how relativity is taught in my “university” for example – so it is probably not your fault.</span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Times",serif;color:black'> </span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Times",serif;color:black'>It is common knowledge (whether “true” in the sense that Al, Martin and I have been talking about it or not), that rulers “shrink” in the direction of the Lorentz transformation and clocks “go slow”. I have been astonished that there has even been discussion about this within this group – but there you go. I do not want to talk about this further here, there has been enough said, but instead take the whole discussion a little bit further</span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Times",serif;color:black'> </span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Times",serif;color:black'>Now I already know several in the group will know what I am about to say to be true (Martin and Stephen). I suspect others may also have got it (John D, Adam K, Nick – but be honest guys). I am pretty sure that this will be news to most of you – though most delighted if I am wrong!</span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Times",serif;color:black'> </span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Times",serif;color:black'>Although lengths transform ONLY along the velocity directions, fields transform (relativistically) ONLY perpendicular to it. The question is simple: did you “know” that?</span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Times",serif;color:black'> </span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Times",serif;color:black'>To be clear in what I am saying: if the velocity is in the z direction. Lengths transform relativistically in z and not in x and y. Fields transform relativistically in Ex, Ey, Bx, and By AND PRECISELY NOT in Bz and Ez.</span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Times",serif;color:black'> </span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Times",serif;color:black'>Once again: did you know that before I told you? Do you agree?</span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Times",serif;color:black'> </span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Times",serif;color:black'>Regards, John W.</span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div id=yqt52760><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>_______________________________________________<br>If you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light and Particles General Discussion List at </span><a href="mailto:davidmathes8@yahoo.com"><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>davidmathes8@yahoo.com</span></a><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><br><a href="</span><a href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/davidmathes8%40yahoo.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1" target="_blank"><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/davidmathes8%40yahoo.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1</span></a><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>"><br>Click here to unsubscribe<br></a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></body></html>