<html><head></head><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_5098"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_8259">Adam</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_5098"><span><br></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_5098">A few more references to supplement the MIT article.</div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_5098"><br></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_4664"><font size="3" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_23793">Couder<span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_19181" class=""> </span><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_19183" class="">and Fort team in France sparked a revolution</span></font></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_4664"><font size="3"><a href="http://arxiv.org/find/all/1/all:+AND+yves+couder/0/1/0/all/0/1" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_9621">http://arxiv.org/find/all/1/all:+AND+yves+couder/0/1/0/all/0/1</a><br></font></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_4664"><font size="3"><br></font></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_4664"><font size="3">Groessing, <span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_15640" class="">Emergence of Quantum Mechanics from a Sub-Quantum
Statistical Mechanics</span></font></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_4664"><font size="3"><a href="http://arxiv.org/pdf/1304.3719.pdf" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_15296">http://arxiv.org/pdf/1304.3719.pdf</a><br></font></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_4664"><font size="3"><br></font></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_4664"><font size="3">Comment from Denmark team</font></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_4664"><font size="3"><a class="edited-link-editor" href="http://arxiv.org/pdf/1405.0466.pdf" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_10152">arXiv:1405.0466</a><br></font></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_4664"><font size="3"><br></font></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_4664"><font size="3" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_23821">Brady and Anderson, Cambridge</font></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_4664"><font size="3"><a href="http://arxiv.org/pdf/1401.4356.pdf" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_5046">http://arxiv.org/pdf/1401.4356.pdf</a><br></font></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_4664"><font size="3"><br></font></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_4664"><font size="3">Valenti, Beyond the Quantum</font></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_4664"><font size="3" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_23794"><a href="http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/1001/1001.2758v1.pdf" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_5765">http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/1001/1001.2758v1.pdf</a><br></font></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_4664"><font size="3"><br></font></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_4664"><font size="3" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_23795">Hofer, <span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_8244" class="">Quantum mechanics: A new chapter?</span></font></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_4664"><font size="3" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_23796"><a href="http://arxiv.org/pdf/1209.1029v1.pdf" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_8034">http://arxiv.org/pdf/1209.1029v1.pdf</a><br></font></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_4664"><font size="3"><br></font></div><div class="" title="Page 1" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_6320" title-off=""><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_6322"><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_6324"><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_6326"><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_6328" class=""><span class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_7868"><font size="3" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_23797">An explanation of interference effects in the double slit
experiment: Classical trajectories plus ballistic diffusion caused
by zero-point fluctuations </font></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_4664"><font size="3"><a href="http://arxiv.org/pdf/1106.5994.pdf" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_5975">http://arxiv.org/pdf/1106.5994.pdf</a><br></font></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_5098" dir="ltr" class=""><font size="3"><br></font></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_5097" dir="ltr" class=""><font size="3"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_15958" class="">Couder's </span><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_15963" class=""> </span><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_15965" class="">website</span></font></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_5097" dir="ltr" class=""><a href="http://www.msc.univ-paris-diderot.fr/spip.php?rubrique140&lang=en" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_15861" class=""><font size="3">Laboratoire Matière et Systèmes Complexes - COUDER Yves</font></a></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_20685" class=""><font size="3"><br id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_20687" class=""></font></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_20685" class=""><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_5098" dir="ltr" class=""><a href="http://resonance.is/news/quantum-weirdness-replaced-by-classical-fluid-dynamics/" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_17532" class=""><font size="3">Quantum Weirdness Replaced by Classical Fluid Dynamics - The Resonance Project Foundation</font></a></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_20691" class=""><br id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_20693" class=""></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_20691" class="">David</div></div> <blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; margin-top: 5px; padding-left: 5px;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_4655"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_4654"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_4653"> <div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_4660"> <hr size="1" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_4663"> <font size="2" face="Arial" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_4661"> <b id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_6583"><span style="font-weight:bold;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_6582">From:</span></b> Adam K <afokay@gmail.com><br> <b id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_6585"><span style="font-weight: bold;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_6584">To:</span></b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion <general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org> <br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b> Ariane Mandray <ariane.mandray@wanadoo.fr> <br> <b id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_6168"><span style="font-weight: bold;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_6167">Sent:</span></b> Thursday, November 5, 2015 8:14 AM<br> <b id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_6166"><span style="font-weight: bold;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_6165">Subject:</span></b> Re: [General] research papers<br> </font> </div> <div class="y_msg_container" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_4652"><br><div id="yiv3501476978"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_4658"><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_4657">Richard,<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_4855"><br clear="none"></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_4856">Great email. A few reactions: </div><div><br clear="none"></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_4656">The paper by de Broglie you cite is excellent, it is the one I was referencing in an earlier email when I said de Broglie said that the wave function is 'arbitrarily normed'. One standout line for me from that paper is right before the conclusion you quoted -- in speaking of the 'sub quantum' world, de Broglie says: "Although interesting explanations have been proposed for
this sub-quantum medium’s nature, it seems premature to discuss the
problem in the present paper."</div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_14883"><br clear="none"></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_5039">That wasn't too long ago, in the 80s. Probably the main thing that has changed since then is Coudet's experiments, the consequences of which are well-spelled-out here : <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://math.mit.edu/~bush/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Bush-PHYSICS-TODAY2015.pdf" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_5038">http://math.mit.edu/~bush/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Bush-PHYSICS-TODAY2015.pdf</a></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_5044"><br clear="none"></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_5043">the general website is here: </div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_5040"><br clear="none"></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_5042"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://math.mit.edu/~bush/?page_id=484" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_5041">http://math.mit.edu/~bush/?page_id=484</a><br clear="none"></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_4867"><br clear="none"></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_4863"><span style="font-size:12.8px;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_4866">Unfortunately, it is only an analogue. It points the way, but does not amount to real quantum physics. Nevertheless, ev</span>eryone interested in the pilot wave model should be aware of this work. The perspective introduced by these experiments is EXACTLY what de Broglie imagined in his mind. Also, a<span style="font-size:12.8px;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_4865">nalogies can be quite powerful! I reread Schrodinger's Nobel lecture last night and it struck me that you would be interested -- it spells out the </span><i style="font-size:12.8px;">analogy</i><span style="font-size:12.8px;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_4864"> between mechanics and optics that inspired him </span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/1933/schrodinger-lecture.pdf" style="font-size:12.8px;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_4862">http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/1933/schrodinger-lecture.pdf</a><span style="font-size:12.8px;"> </span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_4861"><span style="font-size:12.8px;"><br clear="none"></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_4860"><span style="font-size:12.8px;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_4859">Another source for the same concepts is here: <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamilton%27s_optico-mechanical_analogy" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_4858">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamilton%27s_optico-mechanical_analogy</a></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_23318"><span style="font-size:12.8px;"><br clear="none"></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_4913"><span style="font-size:12.8px;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_23319">The real work seems to me to lie in specifying de Broglie's 'sub-quantum' world. How is it that a field (or whatever) could support both particle and wave manifestations? In this light I would say what counts as a "new direction" in your above email is precisely your model of helically turning quantum energy (whatever that is!) but in order to really solve the problem we need to understand WHY the 'sub-quantum medium' gives rise to the patterns you are envisioning. </span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_23320"><br clear="none"></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_4920"><span style="font-size:12.8px;"><br clear="none"></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446740079336_4914"><span style="font-size:12.8px;">Adam</span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px;"> </span></div><div class="yiv3501476978gmail_extra"><br clear="none"><div class="yiv3501476978gmail_quote">On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 10:06 AM, Richard Gauthier <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com">richgauthier@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br clear="none"><blockquote class="yiv3501476978gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div class="qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div class="yiv3501476978yqt9349194018" id="yiv3501476978yqt19755"><div style="word-wrap:break-word;"><div><span>
</span><div class="yiv3501476978MsoNormal">Hello Al and Albrecht and all,</div><div class="yiv3501476978MsoNormal"> For those interested, I found a link to de Broglie’s article (translated into English) “Interpretation of quantum mechanics by the double solution theory” at <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://aflb.ensmp.fr/AFLB-classiques/aflb124p001.pdf">http://aflb.ensmp.fr/AFLB-classiques/aflb124p001.pdf</a>
. It includes his “harmony of phases” calculations. Here is the article’s conclusion:<u></u><u></u></div><div style="font-size:8px;"><span style="font-size:12px;"> “Such is, in its main
lines, the present state of the Wave mechanics interpretation by the
double-solution theory, and its thermodynamical extension. I think that when
this interpretation is further elaborated, extended, and eventually modified in
some of its aspects, it will lead to a better understanding of the true
coexistence of waves and particles about which actual Quantum mechanics only
gives statistical information, often correct, but in my opinion incomplete.”<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="font-size:8px;"><span style="font-size:12px;"> In other words, de
Broglie considered his double-solution approach as unsuccessful as an
interpretation of the quantum mechanics formalism and wave-particle dualism. It
may be that de Broglie’s belief in a “true coexistence” of waves and particles
is fundamentally defective, and that there may be a more unified explanation of
wave-particle dualism than de Broglie, Bohr, Bohm and other interpreters of quantum
mechanics have so far considered. Below are some further thoughts, based on de
Broglie’s own explanation of how he developed his conception of the association
of waves and particles, that developed over time into his double-solution
approach.<u></u><u></u></span></div><div class="yiv3501476978MsoNormal"> Al and Albrecht, you both have made some good and
informative points about pilot waves and the need for getting at a fundamental theory for de
Broglie waves. A key observation is from Al: "<span style="font-family:Verdana;">Seems to me that QM is
not a theory from within which a theory of fundamental particles could ever be
derived.” </span> I would apply that same observation to the Bohm
quantum-potential hypothesis and to de Broglie’s double-solution hypothesis. Since
Bohm’s quantum potential approach and de Broglie’s double-solution approach (also involving a quantum potential) are both derived from the
Schrodinger equation, we also cannot expect these approaches to provide the
basis for deriving a fundamental theory, even though they (Bohm more successfully than de Broglie) provide alternative interpretations to the Copenhagen interpretation of QM math. SED theory, though
somewhat successful in describing the de Broglie wave, does not lead to all the math of QM, which so far predicts statistically the results of all relevant experiments. And de Broglie’s initial pilot-wave
approach had serious problems that even he admitted. </div><div class="yiv3501476978MsoNormal"> But a key idea about de Broglie waves which de Broglie, Al,
Albrecht and I (and others?) could I think all agree on is that quantum waves are emitted/emanated
from the electron (or circulating charged photon), at least mathematically.
These waves lead to the de Broglie wavelength, which was incorporated
successfully into the Schrodinger equation. According to the Copenhagen
interpretation of QM, quantum wave functions are not physically real but only
informational in their predictions of future electron detection probabilities
and scattering/interference phenomena as in the double slit experiment. If
quantum wave functions and wave function “collapse” are only informational ("the
particle is found here so it is not there", then there is no need to
worry about faster-than-light energy travel during wave function collapse. If we can
get a better understanding of the quantum wave emission process leading to de
Broglie waves, this could lead to a more fundamental interpretation of QM in a
way that analysis of the Schrodinger equation or Bohm’s quantum potential
approach may not.</div><div class="yiv3501476978MsoNormal"> De Broglie derived the correct formula for his
wavelength, so he did something right. But his pilot-wave and later his double-solution
interpretations of matter waves were not satisfactory, even to him. The Copenhagen statistical interpretation of quantum mechanics (of Bohr, Heisenberg and Born) came to dominate other interpretations. What was wrong with de Broglie’s pilot-wave interpretation? In his 1937 book
“Matter and Light, the New Physics” (Dover Publications, p 186) de Broglie
wrote: </div><div class="yiv3501476978MsoNormal"> “Actually it is possible to establish a connection between
the motion of the corpuscle and the propagation of the wave; for provided that
at the initial instant the intensity of the wave measures at every point the
probability that the corpuscle is present there, then it also indicates this
probability at every later instant. The corpuscle may thus be regarded as guided
by the wave—a kind of pilot-wave. This view provides an interesting picture of
the motion of corpuscles in Wave Mechanics without there being any need to
abandon classical ideas too sweepingly. Unfortunately, however, here too very
serious objections are met, and it is impossible to remain satisfied with the
concept of the wave as a kind of pilot. At the same time the equations on which
this theory rests cannot be challenged, so that some of its results can be
preserved by giving them a less uncompromising form in accordance with ideas
independently elaborated by Kennard. (Physical Review, XXXI, 1928, p.876) Instead of speaking of the motion and the trajectory of corpuscles we
speak of the motion and the trajectory of ‘elements of probability’, and in
this way the difficulties mentioned are avoided.”</div><div class="yiv3501476978MsoNormal"> I think that de Broglie made a conceptual error (see his quote below), which developed into his pilot wave hypothesis and later into his double-solution hypothesis. In thinking about Einstein's relationship E=hf for a
photon, de Broglie thought that a particle having energy E is associated with a wave of frequency f. He therefore thought that this particle (the photon) must be physically accompanied by a wave, i.e. that the wave and the particle exist in some sense side by side. He thought that this wave-particle relationship could also apply to particles with mass. In the case of an electron, he developed the hypothesis that the particle first generates the wave from the particle's internal vibratory frequency and then this wave influences and guides the particle. On p. 169 of “Matter and Light", de Broglie writes:</div><div class="yiv3501476978MsoNormal"> “In this way, then, I obtained the following general
idea, in accordance with which I pursued my investigations:—that it is
necessary in the case of Matter, as well as of radiation generally and of Light
in particular, to introduce the idea of the corpuscle and of the wave
simultaneously: or in other words, in the one case as well as the other, we
must assume the existence of corpuscles accompanied by waves … and it must
consequently be possible to establish a certain parallelism between the motion
of a corpuscle and the propagation of its associated wave. The first object at
which to aim, therefore, was to establish the existence of this parallelism.”</div><div class="yiv3501476978MsoNormal"> So based on Einstein’s E=hf equation for photons, de Broglie initially supposed that there are two different
entities, the particle and the wave, in association. This led to a kind of
wave-particle dualism in his pilot wave approach, with particle and wave
existing somehow physically side by side and with the wave guiding the
particle. Bohr however insisted on wave-particle complementarity rather than
wave-particle dualism, and Bohr's view became historically the dominant view,
where the quantum wave functions predict the probability of finding the particle through
Psi*Psi. But in Bohr’s approach and in quantum mechanics in general, the origin
of the quantum wave functions themselves is a mystery, or rather quantum wave
functions are a basic postulate of QM theory, where no deeper understanding of them is
supposed to be possible.</div><div class="yiv3501476978MsoNormal"> If physicists are to understand the origin of quantum
wave functions rather than just calculate and use them, a more fundamental
approach to the foundations of quantum mechanics is needed, which goes beyond
wave-particle dualism and complementarity. </div>
<font size="3">
</font> What I am proposing is that instead of two associated entities in QM — a mathematical wave function and a physical particle or particles — there is for both of these quantum expressions a
single quantum informational entity, which I call an energy quantum, which generates both the
particle and wave aspects of the photon or electron (or other quantum objects). If the energy quantum is
that of a photon, the energy quantum expresses the photon’s wave and particle’s measurable properties. Similarly for the electron’s energy quantum. The energy quantum, which is what is
physically detected in an experiment, continues after detection (if it still exists) to express informational quantum waves of a particular frequency which spread out as the energy quantum helically
circulates through space with the same frequency as the quantum waves that it emanates (proportional to its energy).
The energy quantum carries energy and momentum (as well as the information about the quantum’s other physical characteristics) and moves forward at light-speed c. The
quantum waves emitted from a circulating charged photon predict (through Psi*Psi) the
probability of the location of the charged energy quantum further along its direction of
motion, through the derived de Broglie "matter waves". If there is a double slit ahead so that diffraction and interference
from waves behind the two slits are present, the emitted quantum waves from an
electron or photon are like Huygens sub-waves (perhaps this is why the Huygens wavefront construction works so well) that spread out and travel through both slits, always predicting the location of the electron or photon by (Psi*Psi) at any location — either at the slits, in the space behind the
slits, or at the screen behind the slits. No energy is transmitted by these
quantum waves. The energy remains with the energy quantum emitting the waves. But when the energy quantum is detected its energy remains
proportional to the frequency of the quantum waves. Fundamentally I’m proposing
that each energy quantum broadcasts these quantum information waves according to Huygens "sub-wave" principle. The particular properties of the energy quantum (its
energy, mass (if any), charge and spin etc.) remain with the energy quantum. This
hypothesis is proposed to operate even on the single-quantum level, i.e. for
one-at-a time energy quanta going through a double slit or similar apparatus. <span style="font-size:8px;"> </span></div><div><span style="font-size:8px;"><br clear="none"></span></div><div><span style="font-size:8px;"> <span style="font-size:12px;"> The above proposal is </span></span><span>obviously just a beginning (though some modeling groundwork on photons and electrons has been done), but it is I think a new direction that needs pursuing. Comments or questions?</span><span> </span></div><span><font color="#888888"></font></span><div style="font-size:15px;"><span style="font-size:12px;"> Richard</span></div><div><div><br clear="none"><div><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Oct 29, 2015, at 4:01 AM, Dr. Albrecht Giese <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de" target="_blank" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de">genmail@a-giese.de</a>> wrote:</div><br clear="none"><div>
<div>
Hello Richard, and hello all,<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
thank you for this overview about the different interpretations of
QM and particle structure.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
It seems that the de Broglie idea of a pilot wave is not very
plausible for you. Why not?<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
1. If the pilot wave is built by the oscillating internal charges of
a particle, it is plausible that this wave interacts on the one hand
with the other particles met on its way, on the other hand that this
field (which may be changed by this environment) interacts with the
originating particle and do guides the particle. Sounds very simple
and logical to me. <br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
2. You present the different deductions of the de Broglie
wavelength. But none of these deductions help to solve the logical
conflicts which occur with this wavelength.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
I also want to remind that none of the models presented have an
explanation for the (inertial) mass of a particle. In contrast to my
model of two constituents which explains the mass based on two
assumptions. 1st: the particle has an extension; 2nd: the speed of
light is finite. And the results of this approach are numerically
very precise for leptons and theoretically also for quarks. <br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Best regards<br clear="none">
Albrecht<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<div>Am 28.10.2015 um 21:47 schrieb Richard
Gauthier:<br clear="none">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>Hello Al and Albrecht and all,</div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div> Al’s paper No. 11 is a nice summary of several
wave-related options for interpreting quantum mechanics: </div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div>1) the Copenhagen complementarity/duality
interpretation having abstract quantum wave functions that
through Psi*Psi predict statistically the location, momentum and
other observable attributes of a particle or particles, and
having the de Broglie relationship for an electron built into
these quantum wave functions to help predict statistically the
particle's diffraction/scattering/interference/double-slit
properties, </div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div>2a) de Broglie’s original pilot wave approach that
has a physical guiding pilot wave closely associated with and
guiding a particle, and where the electron’s de Broglie
matter-waves/phase-waves emanate from the kernel oscillator of
the electron, </div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div>2b) the later de Broglie/Bohm interpretation of QM
which has a localized particle closely associated with a
non-local quantum potential that guides the particle’s motion
using distant information (such as the location of 2 slits)
found in the surroundings, and which predicts the same
statistical particle properties as the Copenhagen description
and </div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div>3) the Stochastic Electrodynamics (SED) approach
where background electromagnetic waves interact with a dipole
(or multipolar) particle to produce a standing wave that, when
in relative motion, generates the de Broglie wavelength by
dipole-multipole/background-wave interactions. </div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div>As Al describes, approaches (1) and (2 a & b)
are problematical -- in (1) because of the well-known
measurement problem (how to describe the collapse of the quantum
wave function for a particle if and when this collapse occurs),
in (2a) because it is not clear and sometimes contradictory
quantitatively how the pilot wave can guide the particle, and in
(2b) because the Bohm quantum potential guiding the particle
(since it is derived from the Schrodinger equation) has as its
main motivation the generation of the QM statistical predictions
of the Schrodinger equation without the measurement problem
associated with wave-function collapse in (1).</div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div>The approach describing the electron as helically
circulating spin-1/2 charged photon generating the de Broglie
wavelength is quite distinct from these above approaches as to
how the de Broglie wavelength and matter waves are generated. In
the charged photon approach, the charged photon’s speed,
frequency, energy, wavelength and momentum relations are all
associated with de Broglie's proposed relationship E=hf = gamma
mc^2 for a moving electron and with E = hf, p = h/lambda
and c = f lambda for a photon. Unlike de Broglie’s approach
where pilot phase waves having the relativistic de Broglie
wavelength h/(gamma mv) are generated directly from the
oscillating electron’s mass kernel, the helically-circulating
charged photon is proposed to first generate quantum plane waves
with wavelength h/(gamma mc) as the charged photon helically
circulates. These quantum plane waves intersect the helical axis
(the path of the modeled moving electron) to generate the
electron’s relativistic de Broglie matter waves, which in the
non-relativistic Schrodinger equation picture correspond to the
wave equation of a free electron. In the Bohm approach the
particle associates with and is informed by the quantum
potential to generate the electron’s diffraction properties
involving the de Broglie wavelength, while in the Copenhagen
interpretation, the particle description is complimentary to the
quantum wave-function description, and the source of the de
Broglie wavelength is unspecified except mathematically in the
formal QM equations. In the SED approach, it is the interaction
with background electromagnetic waves with the particle
oscillator that generates the de Broglie wavelength.</div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div>So the charged-photon approach to modeling the
electron suggests a different interpretation for the generation
of the de Broglie wavelength, which is fundamental to describing
the wave-particle nature of particles with rest mass, and forms
a basis of quantum mechanics. Describing an electron as a
circulating charged photon, suggests that the if the electron is
a new variety of photon with many of a photon’s properties but
some differences also, the problem of why the electron has
wavelike properties may be nearing a solution, but the problem
of understanding (rather than just postulating) why the photon
has wave-particle properties still remains. </div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div>with best regards,</div>
<div> Richard</div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div> </div>
<br clear="none">
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Oct 28, 2015, at 7:48 AM, <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de" target="_blank" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de"></a><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de" target="_blank" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a> wrote:</div>
<br clear="none">
<div>
<div>
<div style="font-family:Verdana;font-size:12.0px;">
<div>
<div>Hi Albrecht:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>See below:</div>
<div>
<div style="margin:10px 5px 5px 10px;padding:10px 0 10px 10px;border-left:2px solid #c3d9e5;word-wrap:break-word;">
<div style="margin:0 0 10px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Mittwoch, 28. Oktober
2015 um 14:56 Uhr<br clear="none">
<b>Von:</b> "Dr. Albrecht Giese" <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de" target="_blank" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"></a><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de" target="_blank" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de">genmail@a-giese.de</a>><br clear="none">
<b>An:</b> <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de" target="_blank" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a>,
<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a><br clear="none">
<b>Cc:</b> "Richard Gauthier" <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"></a><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com">richgauthier@gmail.com</a>>,
"Joakim Pettersson" <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:joakimbits@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:joakimbits@gmail.com"></a><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:joakimbits@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:joakimbits@gmail.com">joakimbits@gmail.com</a>>,
"Ariane Mandray" <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:ariane.mandray@wanadoo.fr" target="_blank" href="mailto:ariane.mandray@wanadoo.fr">ariane.mandray@wanadoo.fr</a>><br clear="none">
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [General] research
papers</div>
<div>
<div style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);">
<div>Hi Al,<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
thank you for the reference to your paper.
I think that it is an interesting
contribution. However I need some more
details in order to fully and correctly
understand it.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
1.) Is it correct that your deduction of the
de Broglie wavelength is based on the
understanding that there exists a background
of EM-waves? And that it needs this
understanding?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Al: Yes, but I do not see that
as an ontological fact as much as a
convenient summary of the totality of
interactions with the remaining charges in
the universe. (Maybe you've picked up by
now that at a fundamental level I do not
accept the concepts of "photon" or
"E&M" as valid final discriptions or
models for the totality of all possible
gaussian (1/r^2) WITH DELAY between ALL
extant charges. Photons and E&M waves
are approximations, albeit very useful
ones.) If one choses to live with this
assumtion, i.e., the existence of this
background, which is, BTW, identical with
that deduced from QM. as it stands, then the
energy density at each point in space
divergerges, just like "2nd QM "quantum
vacuum"! To get around this objection I
have some ideas, still a bit raw and
unwritten up.</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div><br clear="none">
2.) The sequence of your equations (1) to
(4) is too compact for me to make it
understandable, missing e.g. a definition of
k<sub>0</sub>. Any chance to have
it more detailed?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Al: Don't over interpret it,
just redo it yourself with whatever notation
you like. The description is meant to be
definitive. The math is atmospherics for
the paper. But, k_0 = omega_0/c where the
omega is for the resonant wave in the
particles rest frame. It turns out, as
argued lower in the paper, this does not
really matter which omega, or how many
(e.g., multipole interaction, etc.), even an
infinite number (point charge), they all get
modualted by the deBroglie wave. Again,
this is the final, average effect, not an
ontologically precise deal. QM, after all,
is about averages, relabeled "expectations."
Thinking otherwise leadds to endless
logic-traps.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Al: Hope this helps, best Al<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Thanks and best regards<br clear="none">
Albrecht<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
</div>
<div>Am 27.10.2015 um
16:11 schrieb <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" href="">af.kracklauer@web.de</a>:</div>
<blockquote>
<div style="font-family:Verdana;font-size:12.0px;">
<div>Hi All:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>In paper No. 11 on <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.nonloco-physics.0catch.com/"></a><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.nonloco-physics.0catch.com/">www.nonloco-physics.0catch.com</a>
I published some ideas on the origin
and nanture of deBroglie waves. Seems
to me some of the objections and
obscurities mentioned below are delt
with therein. Take a look, see what you
think. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>ciao, Al</div>
<div>
<div style="margin:10.0px 5.0px 5.0px 10.0px;padding:10.0px 0 10.0px 10.0px;border-left:2.0px solid rgb(195,217,229);">
<div style="margin:0 0 10.0px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Dienstag,
27. Oktober 2015 um 15:39 Uhr<br clear="none">
<b>Von:</b> "Dr. Albrecht
Giese" <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" href=""><genmail@a-giese.de></a><br clear="none">
<b>An:</b> "Richard
Gauthier" <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" href=""><richgauthier@gmail.com></a><br clear="none">
<b>Cc:</b> "Nature of Light
and Particles - General Discussion"
<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" href=""><general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org></a>,
"Joakim Pettersson" <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" href=""></a><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:joakimbits@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:joakimbits@gmail.com"><joakimbits@gmail.com></a>,
"Ariane Mandray" <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" href=""></a><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:ariane.mandray@wanadoo.fr" target="_blank" href="mailto:ariane.mandray@wanadoo.fr"><ariane.mandray@wanadoo.fr></a><br clear="none">
<b>Betreff:</b> Re:
[General] research papers</div>
<div>
<div style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);">Hello
Richard (and all),<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
thank you, Richard, for your
informations. You find my answers
and comments in your text.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
However I see here two general
problems which should be reviewed
by all.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
1.) The fact that the de Broglie
wave regarding its definition and
its use is <i>not </i>Lorentz-invariant.
So it is incompatible with our
physical understanding since 1905.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
2.) If the photon is seen as the
ingredient of the electron, we
need a much clearer definition and
understanding what the photon is
and what its effects are in detail
(like the wave front emitted).
Otherwise there are too many
insufficiently defined situations
as visible in the discussion
further down. - And clearly we do
not get any help from quantum
mechanics for this, after
Heisenberg has stated that it is
completely useless to look into an
elementary particle, and the
physical community has accepted
this since that time.<br clear="none">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
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