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    <b>Albrecht:</b><br>
    I figured you would say something like this. But this group has
    published several intriguing papers ( W. F. Hagen) that suggest
    light <br>
    ( won't say photons) curled up in cycles or tourus like shapes can
    become the basis of matter and explain various elementary particles.<br>
    <br>
    There is something elegant and intriguing about these conjectures. <br>
    However both the charge repulsion and the centripetal forces that
    tend to blow things apart need to be explained in these efforts.<br>
    The QM explanations, as I understand them, simply describe what must
    be so. Dirac's eq. does not answer how charge hangs together<br>
    or what contracts gravitational spin energy induced centrifugal
    forces. <br>
    <br>
    Are you saying this entire category of explanation should be ( has
    already been) discarded in favor of your strong force model?<br>
    <br>
    Best,<br>
    Wolf<br>
    <br>
    <b>Chandrasekhar;</b><br>
    Reading your "could space be considered as the inertial rest frame"
    in the SPIE vol 9570 <br>
    I would very much like to find an alternative explanation for the
    red shift and am interested in your absorption line argument<br>
    but do not understand your logic.<br>
    <br>
    If a star is moving away from us both the inner and outer corona are
    moving at the same velocity.<br>
    The inner corona atom emits light "f<sub>0</sub>'that is red shifted
    To "f" in the media due to its motion<br>
    The outer corona atom absorbs light at frequency "f" that is blue
    shifted relative to its natural "f<sub>0</sub>' frequency because it
    is moving toward the source<br>
    This leaves a hole in the spectra in the media at "f" red shifted<br>
    An atom on earth is not moving toward the source and therefore the
    arriving light will still be at red shift frequency "f" <br>
    atoms on the earth with natural "f<sub>0</sub>' frequency will not
    be able to absorb the light <br>
    <br>
    All light frequencies shift and the hole at "f" is red shifted due
    to the motion of the star away from us.<br>
    Why do you say this is not a doppler effect?<br>
    <br>
    I would like to find a gravitational argument rather than a Doppler
    argument fro the red shift, but do not understand how your argument
    works.<br>
    What am I doing Wrong?<br>
    <br>
    best again,<br>
    Wolf<br>
    <br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Dr. Wolfgang Baer
Research Director
Nascent Systems Inc.
tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
E-mail <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com">wolf@NascentInc.com</a></pre>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/26/2016 1:36 PM, Albrecht Giese
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:56A7E6D5.7020203@a-giese.de" type="cite">
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      Hi Wolf!<br>
      <br>
      The famous equation E=mc^2 is in my understanding one of the
      mystifications in physics created in the last century. Einstein
      did it in a very drastic way: according to him E and m are two
      symbols for the same physical phenomenon. Here I strictly
      disagree. Look to the definitions of mass and energy, they are
      definitely different. If one has a working model for elementary
      particles, this relation results as a <i>relation </i>(nothing
      more) originating in the internal structure of an elementary
      particle.<br>
      <br>
      You see a problem with the electron regarding the repelling force
      and the centrifugal force in an electron. Since the 1930s well
      known physicists have tried to explain the electron classically on
      the basis of the electric force. Their model failed all. So the
      conclusion was (written in text books) that the electron cannot be
      understood but only mathematically treated by QM. <br>
      <br>
      In my model I have gone another way by assuming that the essential
      force in any elementary particle is the strong force. The strong
      force is composed in the particle by positive and negative
      "charges". With this assumption the electron can be calculated
      (like the other leptons and also quarks) with very precise
      results. Particularly the centrifugal force is not a point as the
      internal parts in an elementary particle are mass-less. And the
      electron looks neutral from the outside regarding the strong
      force. <br>
      <br>
      Albrecht<br>
      <br>
      <br>
      <br>
      <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 25.01.2016 um 20:44 schrieb
        Wolfgang Baer:<br>
      </div>
      <blockquote cite="mid:56A67B01.8070703@nascentinc.com" type="cite">
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        Does this not all start with the E=mc^2 energy mass equivalence
        postulate?<br>
        A moving photon has energy therefore mass , if the wave is
        confined to a circular path the mass could be considered
        stationary<br>
        The equations can all be manipulated to come up with various
        quantities and interpretations.<br>
        <br>
        What to me is problematic is the centrifugal forces. What
        balances the tremendous outward pull?<br>
        An electron only has charge that repels, and now centrifugal
        forces, what holds it all together?<br>
        <br>
        Wolf<br>
        <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Dr. Wolfgang Baer
Research Director
Nascent Systems Inc.
tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
E-mail <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com">wolf@NascentInc.com</a></pre>
        <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/25/2016 8:33 AM, Albrecht
          Giese wrote:<br>
        </div>
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          Dear Richard,<br>
          <br>
          you know that I object to your derivation of inertial mass.
          You deduce it from momentum. That is mathematically possible
          by using the known relations. But it is not logical in so far
          as momentum depends on inertia. In a world without inertia
          there would be no momentum.<br>
          <br>
          So we have to explain first the mechanism of inertia itself,
          then we can derive the momentum and the inertial mass.<br>
          <br>
          Best<br>
          Albrecht<br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 24.01.2016 um 20:42 schrieb
            Richard Gauthier:<br>
          </div>
          <blockquote
            cite="mid:0907288F-7DBF-486D-B8E1-30751A151F73@gmail.com"
            type="cite">
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            <div class="">Hello Vladimir and Chandra and all,</div>
            <div class=""><br class="">
            </div>
            <div class="">  Yes, I definitely support the idea of the
              ether as material space, and that all physical particles
              are derived from this ether. This ether can also be called
              a plenum or Cosmic Tension Field.</div>
            <div class=""><br class="">
            </div>
            <div class="">   I don’t however think that it is necessary
              to explain the inertial mass of particles in relation to a
              "coefficient of inertia” or "the amount of momentum the
              ether resists." I have shown (<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.academia.edu/19652036/The_Origin_of_the_Electrons_Inertia"
                class="">https://www.academia.edu/19652036/The_Origin_of_the_Electrons_Inertia</a> )




              by a very simple derivation that the inertial mass m of an
              electron may be derived from the momentum of the circling
              photon in a circulating-photon model of the electron,
              whose circling photon has momentum mc where m = Eo/c^2 =
              hf/c^2 ,  where Eo is the rest energy 0.511 MeV of the
              electron and f is the frequency of the circulating photon
              in the resting electron. Secondly, in a similar way I
              derived a linearly moving photon's inertial mass to be
              M-inertial = hf/c^2 , where f is the photon’s frequency,
              even though a photon has zero rest mass. Thirdly, I
              derived the inertial mass of a relativistic electron,
              whose momentum is p=gamma mv, to be  M-inertial = gamma m
              , even though the moving electron's rest mass is m.  </div>
            <div class=""><br class="">
            </div>
            <div class="">   I present these  derivations below, taken
              from the <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                href="http://academia.edu" class="">academia.edu</a> session

              on my electron inertia article at <a
                moz-do-not-send="true"
                href="https://www.academia.edu/s/a26afd55e0?source=link"
                class=""><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.academia.edu/s/a26afd55e0?source=link">https://www.academia.edu/s/a26afd55e0?source=link</a></a> :</div>
            <div class=""><br class="">
            </div>
            <div class=""><span class="js-non-expanded-comment" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(73, 72, 72); font-family: Georgia, serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 22px; white-space: pre-wrap;">"One reason people don’t think that a photon has any inertial mass (because it has no rest mass) is that how do you get a photon to change its momentum (i.e. accelerate) in order to measure its inertial mass. It can’t go faster or slower than c in a vacuum, so it can’t accelerate in a linear direction, and in normal physics a photon doesn’t follow a curved path (except with gravity), which would make it possible to measure its centripetal acceleration c^2/R . But as I showed in my short el</span><span class="js-expanded-comment" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(73, 72, 72); font-family: Georgia, serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 22px; white-space: pre-wrap;">ectron inertia  article at <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.academia.edu/19652036/The_Origin_o%0A%2
0f_%0A%2%0A0th%0A%2%0A0e_Elect%0A%0Arons_Inertia" class="">https://www.academia.edu/19652036/The_Origin_of_the_Electrons_Inertia</a> , the electron model in a resting electron has the photon going in a circle, with momentum mc and speed c, and the electron's inertial mass is then calculated to be M-inertial =(dp/dt)/Acentrifugal =wmc/(c^2/r)= m which is the inertial mass of the electron. But this calculation of the circling charged photon's inertial mass is independent of the radius of the charged photon’s circular orbit. Let that circular radius go towards infinity and you get a photon traveling in essentially a straight line, still having its inertial mass M =hf/c^2 (where the photon frequency f decreases as the radius of the circle increases) . So according to this logic,  a linearly moving photon DOES have inertial mass M-inertial =hf/c^2 even though a photon has zero rest mass. And when a relativistic electron with momentum p=gamma mv travels in a circle with speed v, the inerti
al 
 mass cal
cul
 ation ab
ove
  gives M
-in
ertial = gamma m for a circling relativistic electron, and not just m the electron’s rest mass . Extending the radius here towards infinity also gives a linearly moving electron an inertial mass M = gamma m and not just the electron's rest mass m."</span></div>
            <div class=""><span class="js-expanded-comment" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(73, 72, 72); font-family: Georgia, serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 22px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
</span></div>
            <div class=""><span class="js-expanded-comment" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(73, 72, 72); font-family: Georgia, serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 22px; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; line-height: normal; white-space: normal;" class="">      As far as I know these are all original derivations of the inertial mass of a resting electron, a photon and a relativistic electron based on a circulating photon model of an electron. I would be pleased to be shown otherwise.</span></span></div>
            <div class=""><span class="js-expanded-comment" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(73, 72, 72); font-family: Georgia, serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 22px; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; line-height: normal; white-space: normal;" class="">
</span></span></div>
            <div class=""><span class="js-expanded-comment" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(73, 72, 72); font-family: Georgia, serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 22px; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; line-height: normal; white-space: normal;" class="">  Richard</span></span></div>
            <div class=""><span class="js-expanded-comment" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(73, 72, 72); font-family: Georgia, serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 22px; white-space: pre-wrap;">    </span></div>
            <br class="">
            <div>
              <blockquote type="cite" class="">
                <div class="">On Jan 24, 2016, at 6:42 AM, Roychoudhuri,
                  Chandra <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:chandra.roychoudhuri@uconn.edu"
                    class="">chandra.roychoudhuri@uconn.edu</a>>
                  wrote:</div>
                <br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
                <div class="">
                  <div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;
                    font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style:
                    normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal;
                    letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
                    orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                    text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows:
                    auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
                    0px;">
                    <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
                      12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"
                      class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt;" class="">Yes,
                        Vlad, that is also my viewpoint.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
                    <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
                      12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"
                      class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt;" class="">I
                        do not remember whether I have attached this
                        paper while communicating with you earlier. I
                        call the “plenum” Cosmic Tension Field (CTF), to
                        be descriptive in its essential properties.<o:p
                          class=""></o:p></span></div>
                    <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
                      12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"
                      class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt;" class="">Chandra.<o:p
                          class=""></o:p></span></div>
                    <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
                      12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"
                      class=""><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        name="_MailEndCompose" class=""><span
                          style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
                          sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span></a></div>
                    <div class="">
                      <div style="border-style: solid none none;
                        border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223);
                        border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;"
                        class="">
                        <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
                          12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"
                          class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size:
                              10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;"
                              class="">From:</span></b><span
                            style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma,
                            sans-serif;" class=""><span
                              class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>General


                            [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                              class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:general-bounces+chandra.roychoudhuri=uconn.edu@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">mailto:general-bounces+chandra.roychoudhuri=uconn.edu@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]<span
                              class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b
                              class="">On Behalf Of<span
                                class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Vladimir




                            Tamari<br class="">
                            <b class="">Sent:</b><span
                              class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Saturday,



                            January 23, 2016 7:00 PM<br class="">
                            <b class="">To:</b><span
                              class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature

                            of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br
                              class="">
                            <b class="">Subject:</b><span
                              class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re:
                            [General] (no subject)<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
                      12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"
                      class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
                    <div class="">
                      <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
                        12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"
                        class="">Hi Richard <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                    </div>
                    <div class="">
                      <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
                        12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"
                        class="">I barge into your discussion without
                        knowing your views on a "plenum field" but if it
                        is an ether I definitely think there is one. A
                        "coefficent of inertia" might be defined as the
                        amount of momentum the ether resists. In a
                        charged or gravitational field this coefficent
                        would increase...I think of this in terms of my
                        Beautiful Universe ether of dielectric nodes,
                        except this may give the wrong idea it is
                        something matter wades in.. not so. Matter and
                        ether are made if the selfsame nodes of energy!<o:p
                          class=""></o:p></div>
                    </div>
                    <div class="">
                      <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
                        12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"
                        class="">Cheers<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                    </div>
                    <div class="">
                      <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
                        12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"
                        class="">Vladimir<br class="">
                        <br class="">
                        _____________________<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                      <div class="">
                        <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
                          12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"
                          class=""><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                            href="http://vladimirtamari.com/"
                            style="color: purple; text-decoration:
                            underline;" class="">vladimirtamari.com</a><o:p
                            class=""></o:p></div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <div class="">
                      <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 12pt;
                        font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',
                        serif;"><br class="">
                        On Jan 21, 2016, at 7:41 AM, Richard Gauthier
                        <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                          class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                          href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com">richgauthier@gmail.com</a>>




                        wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom:
                      5pt;" class="">
                      <div class="">
                        <div class="">
                          <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
                            font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
                            Roman', serif;" class="">Hi Hodge,<o:p
                              class=""></o:p></div>
                        </div>
                        <div class="">
                          <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
                            font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
                            Roman', serif;" class="">    I don’t
                            remember asking that. But if I did, I’m glad
                            the question was helpful.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                        </div>
                        <div class="">
                          <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
                            font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
                            Roman', serif;" class="">   I’m thinking
                            about inertia these days. Do you or others
                            have any insights about its nature?<o:p
                              class=""></o:p></div>
                        </div>
                        <div class="">
                          <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
                            font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
                            Roman', serif;" class="">         Richard<o:p
                              class=""></o:p></div>
                        </div>
                        <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
                          12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"
                          class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
                        <div class="">
                          <blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt;
                            margin-bottom: 5pt;" class="">
                            <div class="">
                              <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
                                font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
                                Roman', serif;" class="">On Jan 20,
                                2016, at 1:43 PM, Hodge John <<a
                                  moz-do-not-send="true"
                                  class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                                  href="mailto:jchodge@frontier.com"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jchodge@frontier.com">jchodge@frontier.com</a></a>>




                                wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                            </div>
                            <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
                              font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
                              Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
                            <div class="">
                              <div class="">
                                <div class="">
                                  <div
                                    id="yui_3_16_0_1_1453325918779_2533"
                                    class="">
                                    <div style="margin: 0in 0in
                                      0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
                                      font-family: 'Times New Roman',
                                      serif; background-color: white;"
                                      class=""><span style="font-family:
                                        Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Richard

                                        Gauthier:<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
                                  </div>
                                  <div
                                    id="yui_3_16_0_1_1453325918779_2535"
                                    class="">
                                    <div style="margin: 0in 0in
                                      0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
                                      font-family: 'Times New Roman',
                                      serif; background-color: white;"
                                      class=""><span style="font-family:
                                        Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">You
                                        asked if the galaxy redshift,
                                        Pioneer anomaly, Pound--Rebka
                                        experiment model had a velocity
                                        term. I looked at redshift data
                                        for 1 galaxy and found no
                                        indication of a velocity term.<o:p
                                          class=""></o:p></span></div>
                                  </div>
                                  <div
                                    id="yui_3_16_0_1_1453325918779_2537"
                                    class="">
                                    <div style="margin: 0in 0in
                                      0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
                                      font-family: 'Times New Roman',
                                      serif; background-color: white;"
                                      class=""><span style="font-family:
                                        Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p
                                          class=""></o:p></span></div>
                                  </div>
                                  <div
                                    id="yui_3_16_0_1_1453325918779_2539"
                                    class="">
                                    <div style="margin: 0in 0in
                                      0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
                                      font-family: 'Times New Roman',
                                      serif; background-color: white;"
                                      class=""><span style="font-family:
                                        Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">I
                                        had not noticed this in the
                                        equations. Your suggestion that
                                        the plenum field can look like
                                        the Higgs field seems valid.
                                        That is, the acceleration of the
                                        plenum field looks like it adds
                                        energy (mass) is a Higgs Field
                                        characteristic. Thus, the plenum
                                        is closer to the idea of a
                                        quantum field and Higgs field
                                        (weak force).<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
                                  </div>
                                  <div
                                    id="yui_3_16_0_1_1453325918779_2541"
                                    class="">
                                    <div style="margin: 0in 0in
                                      0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
                                      font-family: 'Times New Roman',
                                      serif; background-color: white;"
                                      class=""><span style="font-family:
                                        Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p
                                          class=""></o:p></span></div>
                                  </div>
                                  <div
                                    id="yui_3_16_0_1_1453325918779_2543"
                                    class="">
                                    <div style="margin: 0in 0in
                                      0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
                                      font-family: 'Times New Roman',
                                      serif; background-color: white;"
                                      class=""><span style="font-family:
                                        Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Thanks
                                        for the insight.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
                                  </div>
                                  <div
                                    id="yui_3_16_0_1_1453325918779_2545"
                                    class="">
                                    <div style="margin: 0in 0in
                                      0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
                                      font-family: 'Times New Roman',
                                      serif; background-color: white;"
                                      class=""><span style="font-family:
                                        Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p
                                          class=""></o:p></span></div>
                                  </div>
                                  <div
                                    id="yui_3_16_0_1_1453325918779_2579"
                                    class="">
                                    <div style="margin: 0in 0in
                                      0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
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                                      serif; background-color: white;"
                                      class="">Hodge<span
                                        style="font-family: Helvetica,
                                        sans-serif;" class=""><o:p
                                          class=""></o:p></span></div>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
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