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Hi Wolf,<br>
<br>
in my view most models of particles in general and for mass in
specific are mostly tautological in that physical quantities, which
are seen to need an explanation, are just replaced by other
quantities which we all know but which also need a basic
explanation. In most models presented I miss the step to the next
lower level of explanation in the sense of the reductionist's
world.<br>
<br>
Of course I am in favour of my strong force model to explain
particles, otherwise I would not present it and defend it.<br>
<br>
Best<br>
Albrecht<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 26.01.2016 um 23:40 schrieb Wolfgang
Baer:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:56A7F5CF.6080708@nascentinc.com" type="cite">
<meta content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
<b>Albrecht:</b><br>
I figured you would say something like this. But this group has
published several intriguing papers ( W. F. Hagen) that suggest
light <br>
( won't say photons) curled up in cycles or tourus like shapes can
become the basis of matter and explain various elementary
particles.<br>
<br>
There is something elegant and intriguing about these conjectures.
<br>
However both the charge repulsion and the centripetal forces that
tend to blow things apart need to be explained in these efforts.<br>
The QM explanations, as I understand them, simply describe what
must be so. Dirac's eq. does not answer how charge hangs together<br>
or what contracts gravitational spin energy induced centrifugal
forces. <br>
<br>
Are you saying this entire category of explanation should be ( has
already been) discarded in favor of your strong force model?<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Wolf<br>
<br>
<b>Chandrasekhar;</b><br>
Reading your "could space be considered as the inertial rest
frame" in the SPIE vol 9570 <br>
I would very much like to find an alternative explanation for the
red shift and am interested in your absorption line argument<br>
but do not understand your logic.<br>
<br>
If a star is moving away from us both the inner and outer corona
are moving at the same velocity.<br>
The inner corona atom emits light "f<sub>0</sub>'that is red
shifted To "f" in the media due to its motion<br>
The outer corona atom absorbs light at frequency "f" that is blue
shifted relative to its natural "f<sub>0</sub>' frequency because
it is moving toward the source<br>
This leaves a hole in the spectra in the media at "f" red shifted<br>
An atom on earth is not moving toward the source and therefore the
arriving light will still be at red shift frequency "f" <br>
atoms on the earth with natural "f<sub>0</sub>' frequency will not
be able to absorb the light <br>
<br>
All light frequencies shift and the hole at "f" is red shifted due
to the motion of the star away from us.<br>
Why do you say this is not a doppler effect?<br>
<br>
I would like to find a gravitational argument rather than a
Doppler argument fro the red shift, but do not understand how your
argument works.<br>
What am I doing Wrong?<br>
<br>
best again,<br>
Wolf<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Dr. Wolfgang Baer
Research Director
Nascent Systems Inc.
tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
E-mail <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com">wolf@NascentInc.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/26/2016 1:36 PM, Albrecht Giese
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:56A7E6D5.7020203@a-giese.de" type="cite">
<meta content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
Hi Wolf!<br>
<br>
The famous equation E=mc^2 is in my understanding one of the
mystifications in physics created in the last century. Einstein
did it in a very drastic way: according to him E and m are two
symbols for the same physical phenomenon. Here I strictly
disagree. Look to the definitions of mass and energy, they are
definitely different. If one has a working model for elementary
particles, this relation results as a <i>relation </i>(nothing
more) originating in the internal structure of an elementary
particle.<br>
<br>
You see a problem with the electron regarding the repelling
force and the centrifugal force in an electron. Since the 1930s
well known physicists have tried to explain the electron
classically on the basis of the electric force. Their model
failed all. So the conclusion was (written in text books) that
the electron cannot be understood but only mathematically
treated by QM. <br>
<br>
In my model I have gone another way by assuming that the
essential force in any elementary particle is the strong force.
The strong force is composed in the particle by positive and
negative "charges". With this assumption the electron can be
calculated (like the other leptons and also quarks) with very
precise results. Particularly the centrifugal force is not a
point as the internal parts in an elementary particle are
mass-less. And the electron looks neutral from the outside
regarding the strong force. <br>
<br>
Albrecht<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 25.01.2016 um 20:44 schrieb
Wolfgang Baer:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:56A67B01.8070703@nascentinc.com"
type="cite">
<meta content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
Does this not all start with the E=mc^2 energy mass
equivalence postulate?<br>
A moving photon has energy therefore mass , if the wave is
confined to a circular path the mass could be considered
stationary<br>
The equations can all be manipulated to come up with various
quantities and interpretations.<br>
<br>
What to me is problematic is the centrifugal forces. What
balances the tremendous outward pull?<br>
An electron only has charge that repels, and now centrifugal
forces, what holds it all together?<br>
<br>
Wolf<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Dr. Wolfgang Baer
Research Director
Nascent Systems Inc.
tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
E-mail <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com">wolf@NascentInc.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/25/2016 8:33 AM, Albrecht
Giese wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:56A64E73.6010208@a-giese.de" type="cite">
<meta content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
Dear Richard,<br>
<br>
you know that I object to your derivation of inertial mass.
You deduce it from momentum. That is mathematically possible
by using the known relations. But it is not logical in so
far as momentum depends on inertia. In a world without
inertia there would be no momentum.<br>
<br>
So we have to explain first the mechanism of inertia itself,
then we can derive the momentum and the inertial mass.<br>
<br>
Best<br>
Albrecht<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 24.01.2016 um 20:42 schrieb
Richard Gauthier:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:0907288F-7DBF-486D-B8E1-30751A151F73@gmail.com"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252">
<div class="">Hello Vladimir and Chandra and all,</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> Yes, I definitely support the idea of the
ether as material space, and that all physical particles
are derived from this ether. This ether can also be
called a plenum or Cosmic Tension Field.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> I don’t however think that it is
necessary to explain the inertial mass of particles in
relation to a "coefficient of inertia” or "the amount of
momentum the ether resists." I have shown (<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.academia.edu/19652036/The_Origin_of_the_Electrons_Inertia"
class=""><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.academia.edu/19652036/The_Origin_of_the_Electrons_Inertia">https://www.academia.edu/19652036/The_Origin_of_the_Electrons_Inertia</a></a> )
by a very simple derivation that the inertial mass m of
an electron may be derived from the momentum of the
circling photon in a circulating-photon model of the
electron, whose circling photon has momentum mc where m
= Eo/c^2 = hf/c^2 , where Eo is the rest energy 0.511
MeV of the electron and f is the frequency of the
circulating photon in the resting electron. Secondly, in
a similar way I derived a linearly moving photon's
inertial mass to be M-inertial = hf/c^2 , where f is the
photon’s frequency, even though a photon has zero rest
mass. Thirdly, I derived the inertial mass of a
relativistic electron, whose momentum is p=gamma mv, to
be M-inertial = gamma m , even though the moving
electron's rest mass is m. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> I present these derivations below, taken
from the <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://academia.edu" class="">academia.edu</a> session
on my electron inertia article at <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.academia.edu/s/a26afd55e0?source=link"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.academia.edu/s/a26afd55e0?source=link">https://www.academia.edu/s/a26afd55e0?source=link</a></a> :</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="js-non-expanded-comment" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(73, 72, 72); font-family: Georgia, serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 22px; white-space: pre-wrap;">"One reason people don’t think that a photon has any inertial mass (because it has no rest mass) is that how do you get a photon to change its momentum (i.e. accelerate) in order to measure its inertial mass. It can’t go faster or slower than c in a vacuum, so it can’t accelerate in a linear direction, and in normal physics a photon doesn’t follow a curved path (except with gravity), which would make it possible to measure its centripetal acceleration c^2/R . But as I showed in my short el</span><span class="js-expanded-comment" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(73, 72, 72); font-family: Georgia, serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 22px; white-space: pre-wrap;">ectron inertia article at <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.academia.edu/19652036/The_Origin%0A%2
0_o%0A%2%0A0f_%0A%2%0A0th%0A%2%0A0e_Elect%0A%0Arons_Inertia" class="">https://www.academia.edu/19652036/The_Origin_of_the_Electrons_Inertia</a> , the electron model in a resting electron has the photon going in a circle, with momentum mc and speed c, and the electron's inertial mass is then calculated to be M-inertial =(dp/dt)/Acentrifugal =wmc/(c^2/r)= m which is the inertial mass of the electron. But this calculation of the circling charged photon's inertial mass is independent of the radius of the charged photon’s circular orbit. Let that circular radius go towards infinity and you get a photon traveling in essentially a straight line, still having its inertial mass M =hf/c^2 (where the photon frequency f decreases as the radius of the circle increases) . So according to this logic, a linearly moving photon DOES have inertial mass M-inertial =hf/c^2 even though a photon has zero rest mass. And when a relativistic electron with momentum p=gamma mv travels in a circle with speed v,
th
e inerti
al
mass cal
cul
ation ab
ove
gives M
-in
ertial = gamma m for a circling relativistic electron, and not just m the electron’s rest mass . Extending the radius here towards infinity also gives a linearly moving electron an inertial mass M = gamma m and not just the electron's rest mass m."</span></div>
<div class=""><span class="js-expanded-comment" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(73, 72, 72); font-family: Georgia, serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 22px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
</span></div>
<div class=""><span class="js-expanded-comment" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(73, 72, 72); font-family: Georgia, serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 22px; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; line-height: normal; white-space: normal;" class=""> As far as I know these are all original derivations of the inertial mass of a resting electron, a photon and a relativistic electron based on a circulating photon model of an electron. I would be pleased to be shown otherwise.</span></span></div>
<div class=""><span class="js-expanded-comment" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(73, 72, 72); font-family: Georgia, serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 22px; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; line-height: normal; white-space: normal;" class="">
</span></span></div>
<div class=""><span class="js-expanded-comment" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(73, 72, 72); font-family: Georgia, serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 22px; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; line-height: normal; white-space: normal;" class=""> Richard</span></span></div>
<div class=""><span class="js-expanded-comment" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(73, 72, 72); font-family: Georgia, serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 22px; white-space: pre-wrap;"> </span></div>
<br class="">
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Jan 24, 2016, at 6:42 AM,
Roychoudhuri, Chandra <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:chandra.roychoudhuri@uconn.edu"
class="">chandra.roychoudhuri@uconn.edu</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"
class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt;" class="">Yes,
Vlad, that is also my viewpoint.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"
class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt;" class="">I
do not remember whether I have attached this
paper while communicating with you earlier. I
call the “plenum” Cosmic Tension Field (CTF),
to be descriptive in its essential properties.<o:p
class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"
class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt;" class="">Chandra.<o:p
class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"
class=""><a moz-do-not-send="true"
name="_MailEndCompose" class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73,
125);" class=""> </span></a></div>
<div class="">
<div style="border-style: solid none none;
border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223);
border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;"
class="">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
Roman', serif;" class=""><b class=""><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
Tahoma, sans-serif;" class="">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=""><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>General
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:general-bounces+chandra.roychoudhuri=uconn.edu@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">mailto:general-bounces+chandra.roychoudhuri=uconn.edu@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b
class="">On Behalf Of<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Vladimir
Tamari<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Saturday,
January 23, 2016 7:00 PM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature
of Light and Particles - General
Discussion<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re:
[General] (no subject)<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"
class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"
class="">Hi Richard <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"
class="">I barge into your discussion without
knowing your views on a "plenum field" but if
it is an ether I definitely think there is
one. A "coefficent of inertia" might be
defined as the amount of momentum the ether
resists. In a charged or gravitational field
this coefficent would increase...I think of
this in terms of my Beautiful Universe ether
of dielectric nodes, except this may give the
wrong idea it is something matter wades in..
not so. Matter and ether are made if the
selfsame nodes of energy!<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"
class="">Cheers<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"
class="">Vladimir<br class="">
<br class="">
_____________________<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
Roman', serif;" class=""><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://vladimirtamari.com/"
style="color: purple; text-decoration:
underline;" class="">vladimirtamari.com</a><o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in
12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
Roman', serif;"><br class="">
On Jan 21, 2016, at 7:41 AM, Richard Gauthier
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com">richgauthier@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom:
5pt;" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
Roman', serif;" class="">Hi Hodge,<o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
Roman', serif;" class=""> I don’t
remember asking that. But if I did, I’m
glad the question was helpful.<o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
Roman', serif;" class=""> I’m thinking
about inertia these days. Do you or others
have any insights about its nature?<o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
Roman', serif;" class=""> Richard<o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
<div class="">
<blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt;
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class="">
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times
New Roman', serif;" class="">On Jan
20, 2016, at 1:43 PM, Hodge John <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:jchodge@frontier.com"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jchodge@frontier.com">jchodge@frontier.com</a></a>>
wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div
id="yui_3_16_0_1_1453325918779_2533"
class="">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif; background-color: white;"
class=""><span
style="font-family: Helvetica,
sans-serif;" class="">Richard
Gauthier:<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div
id="yui_3_16_0_1_1453325918779_2535"
class="">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif; background-color: white;"
class=""><span
style="font-family: Helvetica,
sans-serif;" class="">You
asked if the galaxy redshift,
Pioneer anomaly, Pound--Rebka
experiment model had a
velocity term. I looked at
redshift data for 1 galaxy and
found no indication of a
velocity term.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div
id="yui_3_16_0_1_1453325918779_2537"
class="">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif; background-color: white;"
class=""><span
style="font-family: Helvetica,
sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p
class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div
id="yui_3_16_0_1_1453325918779_2539"
class="">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif; background-color: white;"
class=""><span
style="font-family: Helvetica,
sans-serif;" class="">I had
not noticed this in the
equations. Your suggestion
that the plenum field can look
like the Higgs field seems
valid. That is, the
acceleration of the plenum
field looks like it adds
energy (mass) is a Higgs Field
characteristic. Thus, the
plenum is closer to the idea
of a quantum field and Higgs
field (weak force).<o:p
class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div
id="yui_3_16_0_1_1453325918779_2541"
class="">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif; background-color: white;"
class=""><span
style="font-family: Helvetica,
sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p
class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div
id="yui_3_16_0_1_1453325918779_2543"
class="">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif; background-color: white;"
class=""><span
style="font-family: Helvetica,
sans-serif;" class="">Thanks
for the insight.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div
id="yui_3_16_0_1_1453325918779_2545"
class="">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif; background-color: white;"
class=""><span
style="font-family: Helvetica,
sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p
class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div
id="yui_3_16_0_1_1453325918779_2579"
class="">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif; background-color: white;"
class="">Hodge<span
style="font-family: Helvetica,
sans-serif;" class=""><o:p
class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times
New Roman', serif;" class="">_______________________________________________<br
class="">
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