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Hi Al,<br>
<br>
if you follow de Broglie, you should have an explanation for the
following experiment (here again):<br>
<br>
Electrons move at 0.1 c towards the double slit. Behind the double
slit there is an interference pattern generated, which in the frame
of the slit follows the rule of de Broglie. But now there is an
observer also moving at 0.1 c parallel to the beam of electrons. In
his frame the electrons have momentum=0 and so wavelength=infinite.
That means: No interference pattern. But there is in fact a pattern
which does not disappear just because there is another observer. And
the moving observer will see the pattern. - This is a falsification
of de Broglie's rule. What else?<br>
<br>
The understanding that the de Broglie wave is a property of the
particle (even though depending on their speed, but not on an
interaction) was not my idea but the one of Schrödinger and Dirac
and many others. Also by de Broglie himself. <br>
<br>
Ciao Albrecht<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 08.02.2016 um 03:30 schrieb
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a>:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:trinity-92484fbf-2534-4f9d-a65b-df3219a36d47-1454898653730@3capp-webde-bs60"
type="cite">
<div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div>
<div>Hi Albrecht:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>BUT, the laws of Physics for "being" in a frame are not
the laws for interacting between frames! The deB. wave is
not a feature of a particle in its own frame, but a feature
of the interaction of such a particle with at least one
other particle in another frame. When the two frames are
moving with respect to each other, then the features of the
interaction cannot be Lorentz invariants. When one particle
is interacting with another particle (or ensemble---slit
say) the relevant physics is determined by the deB wave in
that sitation, whatever it looks like to an observer in a
third frame with yet different relative velocities. It is a
perspective effect: a tree is the same ontological size in
fact no matter how small it appears to distant observers.
Observed diminished size(s) cannot be "invriant."
Appearances =/= ,,so sein''.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>You have gotten your head stuck on the idea that deB.
waves are characteristics intrinsic to particles in an of
themselves. Recalibrate! DeB waves are charactteristics of
the mutual interaction of particles.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Best, Al</div>
<div>
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<div style="margin:0 0 10px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Sonntag,
07. Februar 2016 um 22:10 Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Albrecht Giese" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><genmail@a-giese.de></a><br>
<b>An:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>,
"Richard Gauthier" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><richgauthier@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [General] De Broglie Wave</div>
<div name="quoted-content">
<div style="background-color: rgb(255,255,255);">Hi Al,<br>
<br>
at one of your points I really disagree. The physical
laws have to be fulfilled in every frame. That means
that all physical processes have to obey the same laws
in all frames. So also the process at the double slit.
But the rule given by de Broglie looks correct in only
one frame, that is the frame where the double slit is
at rest. For an observer in motion the diffraction
pattern looks very similar as for the observer at
rest, but for the observer in motion the results
according to de Broglie are completely different,
because the momentum of the particle is different in a
wide range in the frame of a moving observer and so is
the wavelength assigned to the particle.<br>
<br>
The specific case: At electron scattering, the
observer co-moving with the electron will see a
similar pattern as the observer at rest, but de
Broglie says that for this observer there does not
exist any pattern. That is strongly incorrect.<br>
<br>
The Schrödinger equation and also the Dirac function
should have correct results in different frames, at
least at non-relativistic speeds. This requirement is
clearly violated through their use of de Broglie's
rule.<br>
<br>
Grüße<br>
Albrecht<br>
<br>
PS: Your article refers to "Stochastic
Electrodynamics". That is in my knowledge not standard
physics and so a new assumption.<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 07.02.2016 um 19:03
schrieb <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="af.kracklauer@web.de" target="_parent">af.kracklauer@web.de</a>:</div>
<blockquote>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div>
<div>Hi Albrecht:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>In my view the story in my paper has no new
assunptions, rather new words for old
assumptions. As I, along with most others,
see it, there is no conflict with experiment,
but a less than fully transparent explantion
for experimental observations (particle beam
diffrction) otherwise unexplained. At the
time of writing, and nowadays too (although
I'd to think that my paper rationalizes DeB's
story) it was the most widely accepted story
for this phenomna. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>The only entities that logically need to be
Lorentz invariant are the particle. I the deB
wave is not a 'Bestandteil' of the particle,
but of its relations with its envionment, then
invariance is not defined nor useful.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>M.f.G. Al</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 10.0px 5.0px 5.0px
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<div style="margin: 0 0 10.0px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Sonntag,
07. Februar 2016 um 14:39 Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Albrecht Giese" <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="genmail@a-giese.de"
target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><genmail@a-giese.de></a></a><br>
<b>An:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="af.kracklauer@web.de"
target="_parent">af.kracklauer@web.de</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target="_parent">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>,
"Richard Gauthier" <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="richgauthier@gmail.com"
target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><richgauthier@gmail.com></a></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [General] De Broglie
Wave</div>
<div>
<div style="background-color:
rgb(255,255,255);">Hi Al,<br>
<br>
thank you for your reference. Your paper
has a lot of intelligent thoughts but
also a lot of additional assumptions.
With reference to the de Broglie wave, I
think, is the situation much simpler on
the level of conservative knowledge. De
Broglie has misunderstood relativity
(particularly dilation) and so seen a
conflict which does in fact not exist.
He has solved the conflict by inventing
an additional "fictitious" wave which
has no other foundation in physics, and
also his "theorem of harmonic phases"
which as well is an invention without
need. And his result is in conflict with
the experiment if we ask for Lorentz
invariance or even for Galilean
invariance. - If we follow the basic
idea of de Broglie by, however, avoiding
his logical error about relativity, we
come easily to a description of matter
waves without logical conflicts. This
does not need new philosophy or other
effort at this level.<br>
<br>
Best, Albrecht<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am
06.02.2016 um 03:15 schrieb <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a></a>:</div>
<blockquote>
<div style="font-family:
Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div>
<div>Hi Albrecht:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>DeBroglie's verbage is indeed
quite rococo! Nonetheless, his
machinations, although
verbalized, in the true tradtion
of quantum mechanics,
mysteriously, can be
reinterpreted (i.e., alternate
verbage found without changing
any of the math) so as to tell a
fully, if (somewhat)
hetrodoxical, story. See #11 on
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="http://www.Nonloco-Physics.0catch.com" target="_blank">www.Nonloco-Physics.0catch.com</a>.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>cc: Waves are never a
characteristic of a single,
point-like entity, but colletive
motion of a medium. IF they
exist at all. My view is that
E&M waves are a fiction
wrought by Fourier analysis.
The only real physical part is
an "interaction", which mnight
as well be thought of an absract
string between charges. Also,
neutrons have electric multipole
moments; i.e., they are totally
neutral but not charge-free. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Best, Al </div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 10.0px 5.0px
5.0px 10.0px;padding: 10.0px 0
10.0px 10.0px;border-left:
2.0px solid rgb(195,217,229);">
<div style="margin: 0 0 10.0px
0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Freitag,
05. Februar 2016 um 21:43
Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Albrecht Giese"
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="genmail@a-giese.de"
target="_parent"><genmail@a-giese.de></a><br>
<b>An:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a></a>,
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> "Richard
Gauthier" <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="richgauthier@gmail.com" target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><richgauthier@gmail.com></a></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re:
[General] De Broglie Wave</div>
<div>
<div
style="background-color:
rgb(255,255,255);">Hi Al,<br>
<br>
true, in the frame of the
particle the dB wavelength
is infinite. Because in
its own frame the momentum
of the particle is 0. The
particle oscillates with
the frequency of the
particle's Zitterbewegung
(which background fields
do you have in mind? De
Brogie does not mention
them). This oscillation is
in no contradiction with
this wavelength as the
phase speed is also
infinite. For the
imagination, the latter
means that all points of
that wave oscillate with
the same phase at any
point.<br>
<br>
Which background waves do
you have in mind? What is
the CNONOICAL momentum?
And what about E&M
interactions? De Broglie
has not related his wave
to a specific field. An
E&M field would anyway
have no effect in the case
of neutron scattering for
which the same de Broglie
formalism is used. And
into which frame do you
see the wave
Lorentz-transformed?<br>
<br>
So, an electron in his
frame has an infinite
wavelength and in his
frame has the double slit
moving towards the
particle. How can an
interference at the slits
occur? No interference can
happen under these
conditions. But, as I have
explained in the paper,
the normal wave which
accompanies the electron
by normal rules (i.e.
phase speed = c) will have
an interference with its
own reflection, which has
then a wavelength which
fits to the expectation of
de Broglie. But that is a
very local event (in a
range of approx. 10^-12 m
for the electron) and it
is not at all a property
of the electron as de
Broglie has thought.<br>
<br>
To say it again: The de
Broglie wavelength cannot
be a steady property of
the particle. But
Schrödinger and Dirac have
incorporated it into their
QM equations with this
understanding.<br>
<br>
If I should have
misunderstood you, please
show the mathematical
calculations which you
mean.<br>
<br>
Ciao, Albrecht<br>
<br>
<div
class="moz-cite-prefix">Am
05.02.2016 um 19:20
schrieb <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="af.kracklauer@web.de"
target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a></a>:</div>
<blockquote>
<div style="font-family:
Verdana;font-size:
12.0px;">
<div>
<div>Hi: Albrecht:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Your arguments
don't resonate
with me. The deB'
wave length is
infinite in the
particles frame:
it is the standing
wave formed by the
inpinging
background waves
having a freq. =
the particle's
Zitterbewegung.
If these TWO
waves are each
Lorentz x-formed
to another frame
and added there,
they exhibit
exactly the DeB'
modulation
wavelength
proportional to
the particle's
momentum. The
only mysterious
feature then is
that the
proportionality is
to the CNONICAL
momentum, i.e.,
including the
vector potential
of whatever
exterior E&M
interactions are
in-coming.
Nevertheless,
everything works
our without
contradiction. A
particle
oscillates in
place at its
Zitter freq. while
the Zitter signals
are modulated by
the DeB'
wavelength as they
move through
slits, say.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>ciao, L</div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:
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<div
style="margin:
0 0 10.0px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Freitag,
05. Februar
2016 um 12:28
Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Albrecht
Giese" <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><genmail@a-giese.de></a></a><br>
<b>An:</b> "Richard
Gauthier" <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="richgauthier@gmail.com"
target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><richgauthier@gmail.com></a></a>, <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re:
[General] De
Broglie Wave</div>
<div>Hi Richard
and Al, hi
All,<br>
<br>
recently we
had a
discussion
here about two
topics:<br>
<br>
1. The
functionality
of the de
Broglie wave,
particularly
its wavelength<br>
if seen from a
different
inertial
system. Such
cases lead to
illogical<br>
situations.<br>
2. The problem
of the
apparent
asymmetry at
relativistic
dilation.<br>
<br>
I have
investigated
these cases
and found that
they are in
some way<br>
connected.
Relativistic
dilation is
not as simple
as it is
normally<br>
taken. It
looks
asymmetric if
it is
incorrectly
treated. An
asymmetry<br>
would falsify
Special
Relativity.
But it is in
fact
symmetrical if<br>
properly
handled and
understood.<br>
<br>
It is funny
that both
problems are
connected to
each other
through the<br>
fact that de
Broglie
himself has
misinterpreted
dilation. From
this<br>
incorrect
understanding
he did not
find another
way out than
to invent<br>
his "theorem
of phase
harmony"; with
all logical
conflicts
resulting<br>
from this
approach.<br>
<br>
If relativity
is properly
understood,
the problem
seen by de
Broglie<br>
does not
exist.
Equations
regarding
matter waves
can be derived
which<br>
work properly,
i.e. conform
to the
experiments
but avoid the
logical<br>
conflicts.<br>
<br>
As announced,
I have
composed a
paper about
this. It can
be found at:<br>
<br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.academia.edu/21564534/The_Conflict_with_the_De_Broglie_Wavelength"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.academia.edu/21564534/The_Conflict_with_the_De_Broglie_Wavelength">https://www.academia.edu/21564534/The_Conflict_with_the_De_Broglie_Wavelength</a></a><br>
.<br>
<br>
I thank
Richard
Gauthier for
the discussion
which we had
about this<br>
topic. It
caused me to
investigate
the problem
and to find a
solution.<br>
<br>
Albrecht<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
---<br>
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